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» babble   » walking the talk   » feminism   » Love of Wisdom: Naomi Wolf #1, Do Women Feel Free?

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Author Topic: Love of Wisdom: Naomi Wolf #1, Do Women Feel Free?
blueskyboris
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posted 01 January 2005 01:48 AM      Profile for blueskyboris   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"At last, after a long silence, women took to the streets. In the two decades of radical action that followed the rebirth of feminism in the early 1970s, Western women gained legal and reproductive rights, pursued higher education, entered the trades and the professions, and overturned ancient and revered beliefs about their social role. A generation on, do women feel free?"

Wikipedia:

The passage above is the opening paragraph of Naomi Wolf's The Beauty Myth, written in 1990. I would like posters to answer Wolf's question as if she was asking the question today, so let me ask the question anew: A generation after the second-wave feminists acted, and fourteen years after Naomi Wolf wrote The Beauty Myth, do women feel free?

Those interested in participating in or reading other LOVE OF WISDOM debates should click here.

[ 01 January 2005: Message edited by: blueskyboris ]


From: Nova Scotia | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
blueskyboris
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posted 05 January 2005 09:49 PM      Profile for blueskyboris   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, I guess your collective silence has answered the question: Women are too busy being free to comment. Perfect freedom in relation to men has been reached. Rejoice! A new level of Goodness has been reached! Besides, I was growing tired of the whinging.

[ 05 January 2005: Message edited by: blueskyboris ]


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steffie
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posted 05 January 2005 10:18 PM      Profile for steffie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sure I feel free. I am fortunate to exist as a woman in a time where many battles have already been fought and won on my behalf. (And I'd like to say Thank-You to those women who fought them.) I was born into freedom, one might say. My mom was a braless, brazen feminist during the 70s, and I looked to her as if she could do anything; conquer any injustice, speak any truth. But on a personal level, have I experienced many injustices? No.

I have been oppressed, sure - within the framework of an abusive relationship. But oppression by society? No. I enjoy all the freedom I want - the freedom to make my own way in this world, without needing to worry about having a husband to legitimize my existence (or the existence of my children), the freedom to compete for jobs alongside men, to make the same wage as men, etc.

I read both books by Ms Klein, and found them very inspiring. Fire With Fire especially resonated with me, as money issues are linked inextricably with my feeling of personal success and security. In that book, she urges women to take financial control of their lives, which means (possibly) joining with other women to achieve financial mastery.

[ 05 January 2005: Message edited by: steffie ]


From: What are the roots that clutch, what branches grow / Out of this stony rubbish? | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
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posted 05 January 2005 10:28 PM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A sincerely positive comment - Naomi Wolf has written one of the few books that I have ever enjoyed written by a feminist author. I loved the beauty myth. I read it 2-3 years ago. She has admirable qualities. I have not read her other books.
From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
blueskyboris
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posted 05 January 2005 10:34 PM      Profile for blueskyboris   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hailey,
I am glad you have read The Beauty Myth, but the question asked was whether women feel free today.

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Hailey
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posted 05 January 2005 10:37 PM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry! That wasn't fair to the theme of your thread.

I probably value different freedoms than the majority of persons that will be commenting on this post so I don't know that my post will be productive but, no, I do not feel free.


From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
blueskyboris
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posted 05 January 2005 10:51 PM      Profile for blueskyboris   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Elaborate as to why you do not feel free.

[ 05 January 2005: Message edited by: blueskyboris ]


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Hailey
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posted 05 January 2005 11:27 PM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't feel free because I feel that I am expected to think, act, and reflect certain values soley because of the fact that I'm female. Persons anticipate things rather than getting to know me as a person. An example is politicans coming to my door and anticipating that I would have a certain position on abortion, daycare subsidies, or any other host of issues just because I'm female. On a more personal level people anticipating the choices that I make in my own life strictly because I am a woman - making assumptions about what maternity leave I will take, what choices I will make about other things etc. It's amazing to me that people think 50% of the population thinks the same way. I'm an individual person.

And, beyond that, my time in university and my time at the hospital taught me how much more vulnerable women are and how women look for external answers to their problems always seeing it as someone else's problem to solve. I had been very sheltered from many social issues and then was immersed full force in seeing women as victims of their own thinking, victims of familial abuse, and victims of random violence. I believe that after my awareness of how prevelant rape was and how unpredictable some risk factors are I stopped feeling safe. I haven't felt safe in probably two years now. And, to me, you need to feel safe in order to feel free.

I have other personal factors that are individualized to myself but I think the point of the thread is systems issues.


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blueskyboris
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posted 06 January 2005 12:56 PM      Profile for blueskyboris   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
All individuals are part of the 'the system'. The creation of a left and right is systemic.

[ 06 January 2005: Message edited by: blueskyboris ]


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skdadl
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posted 06 January 2005 01:23 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
blueskyboris, as a woman who knows that women's lib groups started up even earlier than Naomi Wolf says in that quote above, I feel moderately unfree for two reasons.

The freedoms that steffie listed above women in Canada now have in theory, because we have laws affirming our equality and courts that will back us up if we turn to them.

We didn't get those laws, though, because a majority of citizens demanded them, and I'm not sure that, even now, a majority would defend them if they were put to a vote in a referendum. I sense some backsliding, actually. There is a backlash against feminism, and it has had an impact.

In other words, I'm not convinced that a majority of my fellow citizens really believe in women's equality or believe in defending it legally, so that makes me moderately nervous.

And second, I think that stats show women still lagging significantly in employment income. I think that most women still are much more vulnerable economically than are men. There are many reasons why, but the general vulnerability continues.


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Scout
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posted 06 January 2005 01:37 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I feel free because I donít feel that I am expected to think, act, and reflect certain values solely because of the fact that I'm female. An example is politicians coming to my door and anticipating that I would have my husbands position on abortion, daycare subsidies, or any other host of issues just because I'm female.

On a more personal level people donít anticipating the choices that I make in my own life strictly because I am a woman - making assumptions about who will take maternity leave in my relationship, what choices I will make about other things etc.

While I feel free, women are not as a whole free. Women are still not paid the same across the board. Women are still victimized by their partners and left financially vulnerable. Many women canít afford to choose to stay home with their children.

Around the world, women in many nations are not free: marriages are arranged without their consent, birth control denied, spousal abuse condoned, manner of dress chosen for them. Women are still being stoned to death. No, women of the world are not free.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
miss nomer
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posted 06 January 2005 02:01 PM      Profile for miss nomer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I feel free to fight for the rights of women. I feel free to reject the patriarchy of the Catholic Church that I was brought up in.

There is a long way to go before women will be treated as equals in society, but I feel free to work toward that goal.


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blueskyboris
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posted 06 January 2005 03:58 PM      Profile for blueskyboris   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
True, feminist agitation for equality stretches back, at least in modernity, to the 1850s.
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skdadl
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posted 06 January 2005 04:02 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Organized groups of the so-called Second Wave go back to 1968 (which is when I joined one).

But both de Beauvoir and whazzername (American woman, talking about housewife malaise) were selling in mass quantities by the mid-sixties.


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Budd Campbell
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posted 06 January 2005 04:06 PM      Profile for Budd Campbell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
But both de Beauvoir and whazzername (American woman, talking about housewife malaise) ...

I think you mean Betty Friedan.


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steffie
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posted 06 January 2005 04:33 PM      Profile for steffie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Skdadl wrote:

quote:
I'm not sure that, even now, a majority would defend [women's rights] if they were put to a vote in a referendum. I sense some backsliding, actually.

If so, then WHY? Complacency? How can it be that women, who make up at least 50% of the population cannot stand up for their own rights? Surely change can occur if enough people care to make it better. Are women allowing injustice to exist? What's holding us back?


From: What are the roots that clutch, what branches grow / Out of this stony rubbish? | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
steffie
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posted 06 January 2005 04:44 PM      Profile for steffie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
[...] women want everything [...] there is an unspoken historic and psychological barrier, which means that when women do try to be the most that they can be, they are stopped; they are stopped by the flaws that they have developed, by the society that they cannot manage or by the very idea that a woman could want anything. - Adrienne Clarkson, from the Foreward to Dropped Threads 2: More of What We Aren't Told, Ed. Carol Shields and Marjorie Anderson.

From: What are the roots that clutch, what branches grow / Out of this stony rubbish? | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
blueskyboris
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posted 06 January 2005 05:06 PM      Profile for blueskyboris   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Stay on topic please.
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skdadl
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posted 06 January 2005 05:09 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How is that not on topic?
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blueskyboris
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posted 06 January 2005 11:12 PM      Profile for blueskyboris   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Anyone else?
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Stargazer
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posted 07 January 2005 02:30 PM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Do I feel 'free'? In some aspects - definitely. In others - no. Are women 'free' from stereotypes and the resulting abuse (both emotional and pyhsical)? No, for the most part they aren't. Are women's bodies still be used to promote products? Yes. Are girls being sexualized at a young age? Yes. Does this mean freedom for them? No. It means slavery to commodities.

Are the courts dealing better with rape and incest cases? I don't think so. Are men becoming aware of women as people with needs apart from themselves? Some are but for the most part I don't see that around me on a day-to-day basis. In my conversations with men, they don't even admit to the possibility that women are not so free. That's scary and sad.

If I were a single parent in my teens would I think I was free? Not for a second.


From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jeit
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posted 07 January 2005 11:40 PM      Profile for Jeit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't think anyone can feel completely "free" so long as we do not have absolute power over everything. However, we can feel relatively free when compared to others with less power and freedom than ourselves.

How many of the un-free feelings, such as interacting with people who stereo-type, is exclusive to women?


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Stargazer
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posted 08 January 2005 12:04 AM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
True, but specific to women is the awful and trying times of being a young, single parent - alone.
From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
blueskyboris
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posted 08 January 2005 12:52 AM      Profile for blueskyboris   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
True, there are irrational expectations projected on to men, but these projections are no where near comparable quantitatively and the quality of the expectations are surely different from that projected onto women.

Anyone else?


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Jeit
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posted 08 January 2005 04:26 PM      Profile for Jeit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
star, I was raised by my dad - alone.

blue, how are the two comparable enough to lead you to a quantitative conclusion?


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nonsuch
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posted 08 January 2005 07:57 PM      Profile for nonsuch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
We didn't get those laws, though, because a majority of citizens demanded them,

True, but this would also be true of social justice in general. The majority of people never demand or care about anything: it's usually up to a more advanced minority in a position to make changes. That it happened at all is a measure of the quality of political leadership we had at the time.
quote:
and I'm not sure that, even now, a majority would defend them if they were put to a vote in a referendum.

Again, true, though not exclusive to women's rights. I don't see many - let alone a majority - defending the rights of any individual citizen.
quote:
I sense some backsliding, actually. There is a backlash against feminism, and it has had an impact.

Yes. And there is a great deal of fear; a lot of hiding under the bed; a lot of trying to buy a sense (however false) of security, at any price. People are not hopeful now; they're anxious, and they're looking for scapegoats.

However, back to the topic: we do have much more freedom than we choose to exercise.
Women have been driving me nuts, over the past 15 or so years, by acting as if they'd never been liberated. Siding with a patriarchal authority (church, state, spouse, pop culture, social peer-group) against other - and by extension all - women's interests. Refusing to plan beyond the next week or year. Choosing terrible mates - and staying with terrible mates. Failing to take control of their lives when they had the opportunity. Chickening out on personal, moral, social and political decisions.

On the other hand, there are obstacles to freedom that many of us can't help. We care for people: children, parents, husbands, friends, the homeless, the sick, the disabled, the disaster-stricken, the disenfranchised. It's theoretically possible to walk away from responsibility, but many of us are constitutionally incapable of doing so. Caring is a major trap. (Of course, this is equally true of decent men.)

Me, i was almost entirely free at 21. As i took on responsibilities and dependents, my personal freedom diminished. But it wasn't laws and the threat of punishment that restricted my freedom: it was informed consensual obligations. Those come with growing up. I still feel more free and in control of my fate than many other women i know.


From: coming and going | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 08 January 2005 08:18 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, there's that, nonesuch.

But we got that ... by lucky accident? From believing all that idealist fluff in ... books? And finding that ... it actually works?

Because not everyone feels that way, as I know you know.

And furthermore:

quote:
True, but this would also be true of social justice in general. The majority of people never demand or care about anything: it's usually up to a more advanced minority in a position to make changes. That it happened at all is a measure of the quality of political leadership we had at the time.

nonesuch, I think that you just found a serious use for the dreaded middle-class intellectual.

I know. They annoy me too. But we owe some of them, big time.

And now we'd better change the subject, or we're all gonna start subscribing to democratic centralism, and people will call us nasty names!


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
nonsuch
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posted 08 January 2005 08:48 PM      Profile for nonsuch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Heh, i've been called worse. Generally prefer it to sticks and stones, smart bombs and howitzers.
Nevertheless, democracy, applied honestly, could work... eventually.

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blueskyboris
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posted 08 January 2005 11:47 PM      Profile for blueskyboris   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"blue, how are the two comparable enough to lead you to a quantitative conclusion?" Both men and women are humans, and hence share more than they differ.


EVERYONE: Please do not digress into extended debate in this thread. This thread is exclusively for answers, not arguments. Do women feel free?

Anyone else?

[ 09 January 2005: Message edited by: blueskyboris ]


From: Nova Scotia | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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posted 10 January 2005 11:58 AM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
EVERYONE: Please do not digress into extended debate in this thread. This thread is exclusively for answers, not arguments. Do women feel free?

Babble doesn't really work that way.

Also, did you check with Audra before linking an entire babble thread to your website?

[ 10 January 2005: Message edited by: Scout ]


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skdadl
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posted 10 January 2005 12:01 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Scout: hee.

We're not really good at lining up in straight rows, are we.


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Scout
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posted 10 January 2005 12:04 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Too damn independant I guess.
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skdadl
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posted 10 January 2005 12:06 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
An unruly group, for sure.

I guess that, here at least, we feel ... free!


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blueskyboris
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posted 10 January 2005 02:15 PM      Profile for blueskyboris   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"An unruly group, for sure" Even in the future material utopia leftist are striving toward there will be manners. Spitting in another's face, cutting another off while she or he is speaking, and blocking one' passage will all still be rude, among many other actions. If you think an anarchistic society will lack manners you are sadly mistaken.

Anyone else?

[ 10 January 2005: Message edited by: blueskyboris ]


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Scout
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posted 10 January 2005 03:33 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Using babble content on your own website without permission of the site or it's contributors might not be too polite either.

Rudely, repeatedly, trying to force people to do your bidding here isn't too nice either. You aren't a moderator and you don't own this thread even though you started it. You might want to respect the environment your coming into before you try and dictate to it's members.

[ 10 January 2005: Message edited by: Scout ]


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Michelle
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posted 10 January 2005 04:10 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by blueskyboris:
EVERYONE: Please do not digress into extended debate in this thread. This thread is exclusively for answers, not arguments. Do women feel free?

Anyone else?


First you ask people to expand on their answers, then you tell them not to get into any extended debate. Unless we all have the same answers, we're obviously going to talk about how our answers differ with each other.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
blueskyboris
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posted 10 January 2005 04:20 PM      Profile for blueskyboris   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"Using babble content on your own website without permission of the site or it's contributors might not be too polite either."

First off, the content is not on my website. Second, Babble is a public forum, and as such can be read by anyone, so my links are of the spirit of Babble.

"Rudely, repeatedly, trying to force people to do your bidding here isn't too nice either."

Nothing rude about it. I politely asked you stay on topic and not derail the thread. It is you who are being rude. "Please" does not in any way constitute force. You only recognize 'please' as a way of force because you do not respect the freedom of other people.

"You aren't a moderator and you don't own this thread even though you started it." W

Who said I was? I politely asked you to stay on topic. Nothing more.

"You might want to respect the environment your coming into before you try and dictate to it's members."

Again, "please" is not a form of dictatorship. If you don't like the topic, I suggest you find another thread, but I reserve the right to politely asked posters to stay on topic.

Respect is a two-way street that includes at least two people. Your manipulation of language to make my 'please' look authoritarian is sign of your lack of respect for other people and your general sophistry. In no way can 'please' be construed as dictatorial.

Anyone else?

[ 10 January 2005: Message edited by: blueskyboris ]


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skdadl
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posted 10 January 2005 04:21 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
there will be manners.

That doesn't sound like good manners to me. That sounds like orders. It sounds most un-free, and it also sounds not well mannered at all, very rude, in fact.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 10 January 2005 04:23 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ok, guys: I call serious troll.
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blueskyboris
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posted 10 January 2005 04:25 PM      Profile for blueskyboris   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Michelle
"First you ask people to expand on their answers, then you tell them not to get into any extended debate. Unless we all have the same answers, we're obviously going to talk about how our answers differ with each other."

Yeah, there is a bit of a contradiction there and I am embarrassed to say that I should have outlined this in the OP.

This is my point: Debate will turn this thread into a debate over positions, when all I want are opinions from individuals in the community.

Actually, you know what? Fuck it. Argue away.

But I still ask: Is there anyone else that wants to answer the question from their perspective?


From: Nova Scotia | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
blueskyboris
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posted 10 January 2005 04:29 PM      Profile for blueskyboris   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"Ok, guys: I call serious troll."

Really? I also consider you a troll. Guess we have something in common! Unfortunately, I would not call anyone a troll, because only a troll calls another a troll.

[ 10 January 2005: Message edited by: blueskyboris ]


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blueskyboris
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posted 10 January 2005 04:32 PM      Profile for blueskyboris   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You talk of 'freedom' but you have no idea what that means, because you 'TELL ME WHAT I CAN AND CAN NOT DO AT BABBLE' which is very authoritarian, whereas I simply ask, politely, people to stay on topic and only answer the question.
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paxamillion
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posted 10 January 2005 04:40 PM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by blueskyboris:
...whereas I simply ask, politely, people to stay on topic and only answer the question.

It also demonstrates a misunderstanding of the culture here. Thread drift is a very common, typically understood part of our community. "Directed conversations" such as yours don't seem to work here.


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blueskyboris
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posted 10 January 2005 04:53 PM      Profile for blueskyboris   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am glad that 'thread-drift' is part of the 'culture', but I am also glad to inform you that culture does not exist in a bubble. Besides, your justification from 'culture' ignores the individuals in the community. Are you denying that 'culture' is created by individuals and community?
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blueskyboris
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posted 10 January 2005 04:56 PM      Profile for blueskyboris   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It goes without saying that those who want to answer the question in the OP are still welcome(by me and those others who have answered) to answer even though this thread is 'drifting' into other matters.
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skdadl
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posted 10 January 2005 04:57 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
boris, unless one is audra, no one lays down the law on babble. And your way of expressing yourself keeps sounding as though you are laying down the law.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Albireo
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Babbler # 3052

posted 10 January 2005 05:11 PM      Profile for Albireo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Exactly, skdadl, and it grates against me like sandpaper undies.

Anyone else?


From: --> . <-- | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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Babbler # 1595

posted 10 January 2005 05:13 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You talk of 'freedom' but you have no idea what that means, because you 'TELL ME WHAT I CAN AND CAN NOT DO AT BABBLE' which is very authoritarian, whereas I simply ask, politely, people to stay on topic and only answer the question.

And you trying to tell us how to post on babble isnít a problem? Pot and kettle ring a bell? After all, it's you who are trying to take something from us for your personal use, youíd think you could be a little less bossy, especially when you have been asked to back off a bit and given information about the place your soliciting information from. I answered honestly and yet you arenít being too forthcoming about why you are asking for all these answers and if you cleared your little project with Audra.

Because thisÖ

quote:
Those interested in participating in or reading other LOVE OF WISDOM debates should click here.

Öcould be seen as advertising, and that isnít free around here. But you seem to be more defensive than interested in babble policy or culture.

quote:
I am glad that 'thread-drift' is part of the 'culture', but I am also glad to inform you that culture does not exist in a bubble. Besides, your justification from 'culture' ignores the individuals in the community. Are you denying that 'culture' is created by individuals and community?

Get over yourself. This is antagonistic, rude and condescending. You have been almost patriarchal in your repeated attempts to control the feminists answering your question.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Timebandit
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Babbler # 1448

posted 10 January 2005 06:11 PM      Profile for Timebandit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have to wonder if that wasn't the point in the first place. A little experiment, perhaps?
From: Urban prairie. | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
paxamillion
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Babbler # 2836

posted 10 January 2005 06:47 PM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Zoot:
I have to wonder if that wasn't the point in the first place. A little experiment, perhaps?

A bit of Optative Theatrics, perhaps?


From: the process of recovery | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
ronb
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Babbler # 2116

posted 10 January 2005 09:23 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Dear god, is he still around?
From: gone | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Timebandit
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Babbler # 1448

posted 10 January 2005 10:02 PM      Profile for Timebandit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If not, pax, something akin to.
From: Urban prairie. | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
blueskyboris
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Babbler # 7764

posted 10 January 2005 11:32 PM      Profile for blueskyboris   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
skdadl
quote:
boris, unless one is audra, no one lays down the law on babble. And your way of expressing yourself keeps sounding as though you are laying down the law.

If no one but the Great Audra lays down the law on 'babble rabble.ca' then please stop making prounouncements as if you make the law! Remember, it is not me who started with the DO THIS language. 'Please' is in no way DO THIS language.

Isn't it ironic, don't you think? 1) Talking about 'laws' on a 'rabble-based' website (If left-wingers are all about liberation, then this sort of talk is anti-rabble) and 2) proclaminng that a person can not politely ask others to stay on topic because YOU SAY SO. Your hypocritical stance is anti-left and authoritarian.

Albireo

quote:
Exactly, skdadl, and it grates against me like sandpaper undies.

Anyone else?


Yes, anyone else? Does anyone else care to defend the right to derail a thread that is topic specific?


Alberio

quote:
And you trying to tell us how to post on babble isnít a problem?
Correction, I politely asked you not to go off topic in this particular thread. I really do not care what you do in other threads.

quote:
Pot and kettle ring a bell?
Again, I reject the argument that 'please' is a way of TELLING someone to do something. There is no demand inherent in 'please', by definition.


Scout

quote:
After all, it's you who are trying to take something from us for your personal use,
You really do not understand the spirit of public internet forums. There is nothing to 'take' since anyone with a computer can view the threads. If you want your community to be private, which is completely in contradiction with the title 'babble rabble.ca', the spirit of which is 'rabble = the common people' and 'babble = free expression', then you contradict your own websites' spirit.

quote:
youíd think you could be a little less bossy,
Again, 'bossy' does not include 'please'.

quote:
especially when you have been asked to back off a bit and given information about the place
I reject your right to decide what is and isn't the culture on Babble. The only culture that is is those who write on it, and their interconnections, and the meaning of the words in the title when combined.

quote:
your soliciting information from.
Soliciting! I did not ask anyone to comment in this thread. My second statement was only a statement and certainly not a solicitation. I did not say "come on guys, comment in my thread!" That would be solicitation.

quote:
I answered honestly and yet you arenít being too forthcoming about why you are asking for all these answers and if you cleared your little project with Audra.
This is a free speech site by essence; therefore, I do not have to 'consult' Audra before I start. I expect to be censored at 'Stormfront' but I will not tolerate such crap on a supposedly leftist site. Which means, if I am censored or my project rejected your babble rabble forum is not actually babble rabble (free expresion by the masses) and is hence not worth my time as it is not a real leftwing community. So if you guys do not like the topic, or do not like my 'project', leave the thread.

quote:
Öcould be seen as advertising, and that isnít free around here. But you seem to be more defensive than interested in babble policy or culture.
I am in defensive mode because I have been told that politely asking posters to stay on topic is wrong. In fact, I am in my aggressive stamp-out-the-stupid-attitude mode simply because of this fact.

quote:
Get over yourself.
No, YOU get over yourself.

quote:
This is antagonistic, rude and condescending.
Yes, i agree. Demanding that someone stop politely asking posters to not derail the thread is antagonistic, rude and condescending.

quote:
You have been almost patriarchal
Yes, I agree, you have been most patriarchal in demanding that I stop asking politely for posters to stay on topic. I don't mean to slap your face too hard, but the patriarchs are famous for protecting their secret cultures and dominant culture, which is exactly your complaint. BE WHAT WE ARE.

quote:
in your repeated attempts to control the feminists answering your question.
Sorry, control is not limited to the realm of men! It is not some essence that perspires from his armpits and crotch or unique to his mental chemistry.

[ 10 January 2005: Message edited by: blueskyboris ]


From: Nova Scotia | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Timebandit
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Babbler # 1448

posted 10 January 2005 11:41 PM      Profile for Timebandit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't see where anyone was off topic, to begin with. And one can be incredibly bossy despite the niceties, please being merely one. It's something I've practiced myself -- I'm good at it, too.

Nevertheless, when I read your first post, my initial thought was "What's your point?" I'm still waiting to figure that out before I'm inclined to respond one way or another. I suspect, given the early lack of response from others, I'm not the only one.

So, blueskyboris, what's your point? Can you give us something of more substance, let us know what it is you're after?


From: Urban prairie. | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
blueskyboris
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posted 10 January 2005 11:58 PM      Profile for blueskyboris   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Fair enough:

I am looking to build a thread around Naomi's question, but asked in the present. It was certainly my bad that I did not make this clearer in the OP.

Are you in fact asking another question?

[ 11 January 2005: Message edited by: blueskyboris ]


From: Nova Scotia | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
blueskyboris
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posted 11 January 2005 12:05 AM      Profile for blueskyboris   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
We seem to have a different philosophy of please. I see please as a civil way of asking for compliance or respect and there is no requirment that the one who uses please must use other means if rejected. For example, i could have simply ignored you or dropped out of the thread cursing at rude people. 'Bossy', however, is simply a demand, with a threat that 'I will do X' lurking not too far away.

[ 11 January 2005: Message edited by: blueskyboris ]


From: Nova Scotia | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
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Babbler # 6438

posted 11 January 2005 01:01 AM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
We seem to have a different philosophy of please. I see please as a civil way of asking for compliance or respect and there is no requirment that the one who uses please must use other means if rejected. For example, i could have simply ignored you or dropped out of the thread cursing at rude people. 'Bossy', however, is simply a demand, with a threat that 'I will do X' lurking not too far away.

The irony of directing people though in a thread that's about freedom..too sweet.


From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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posted 11 January 2005 01:06 AM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
For once Hailey, we are in complete agreement.
From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
blueskyboris
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posted 11 January 2005 01:58 AM      Profile for blueskyboris   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hailey,
The irony of talking of freedom while they demand another to stop doing something.

[ 11 January 2005: Message edited by: blueskyboris ]

[ 11 January 2005: Message edited by: blueskyboris ]


From: Nova Scotia | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
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posted 11 January 2005 02:12 AM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I never asked you to stop I don't have a strong personal interest so c'est la vie but...I am just surprised you are surprised by the collective reaction

[ 11 January 2005: Message edited by: Hailey ]


From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Albireo
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Babbler # 3052

posted 11 January 2005 02:18 AM      Profile for Albireo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by blueskyboris:
We seem to have a different philosophy of please. I see please as a civil way of asking for compliance or respect and there is no requirment that the one who uses please must use other means if rejected.
All right then. Please bugger off.

From: --> . <-- | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
blueskyboris
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posted 11 January 2005 02:43 AM      Profile for blueskyboris   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Suprised? No.

Of course you do not have a strong personal interest, Hailey. The thread topic is rather narrow and hence once you have answered the question it becomes of little consequence to you. The question is too broad to be answered in one thread, which is why I didn't want to digress.

"All right then. Please bugger off."
Thank you for expressing your want for me to bugger off, but that is not going to happen.


From: Nova Scotia | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
blueskyboris
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posted 11 January 2005 03:14 AM      Profile for blueskyboris   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Since we are at a standstill and have beaten the current topic to death, I vote that we split the thread so that posts 18, 19, 20 and all posts 28 to the present become a new thread which should be deposited in 'babble banter". I will eliminate the stay 'on topic comment' in post 27. Then we can get back to NOT wasting our time and debate something that actually matters. I do hope this forum software is capable of a split?

[ 11 January 2005: Message edited by: blueskyboris ]

[ 11 January 2005: Message edited by: blueskyboris ]


From: Nova Scotia | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
paxamillion
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posted 11 January 2005 11:24 AM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Does anyone else get a vote?
From: the process of recovery | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Timebandit
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Babbler # 1448

posted 11 January 2005 11:26 AM      Profile for Timebandit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why would anyone bother?

If you want directed threads that one can dictate questions and direct answers only, you should consider starting and moderating your own message board. That isn't really the way babble works or is moderated -- not being confrontational here, just explaining what I've observed over the last 3+ years on this board. Most of the people here are interested in debate and discussion of issues, not simply answering a question and wandering off.


From: Urban prairie. | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Suzette
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posted 11 January 2005 11:32 AM      Profile for Suzette     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by paxamillion:
Does anyone else get a vote?

Hey, pax: speaking of voting, what are your thoughts on the Single Transferable Vote issue?

From: Pig City | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
paxamillion
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Babbler # 2836

posted 11 January 2005 11:39 AM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Human Fly:
Hey, pax: speaking of voting, what are your thoughts on the Single Transferable Vote issue?

I've not read much on it. However, it seems to have some merit.


From: the process of recovery | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Suzette
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posted 11 January 2005 11:45 AM      Profile for Suzette     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by paxamillion:

I've not read much on it. However, it seems to have some merit.



Well, it's the system we've got in place here in Australia, so I'm biased I suppose, but I think it's fairer, and gives more scope for the electorate to communicate more complex opinions than simply 'yes' or 'no'.

Back to you.


From: Pig City | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
blueskyboris
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posted 11 January 2005 01:29 PM      Profile for blueskyboris   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
paxamillion
"Does anyone else get a vote?"

Yes, of course.

Zoot
"Why would anyone bother?"

Why would anyone bother what?

"If you want directed threads that one can dictate questions and direct answers only, you should consider starting and moderating your own message board."

You really do want to go on with your sophistry. 'Please' does not assume automatic compliance. That is why please is please and do now is do now. Therefore, I was not 'dictating' anything.

"That isn't really the way babble works or is moderated -- not being confrontational here, just explaining what I've observed over the last 3+ years on this board. Most of the people here are interested in debate and discussion of issues, not simply answering a question and wandering off."

Good thing I have already conceded digression. So lets split the thread.


From: Nova Scotia | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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Babbler # 1595

posted 11 January 2005 01:36 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So lets split the thread.

Don't get your hopes up. I don't think it can be done or even would be if it could be.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Timebandit
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Babbler # 1448

posted 11 January 2005 01:46 PM      Profile for Timebandit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Why would anyone bother what?

Splitting the thread. What for? I've started threads that have gone off in directions that I didn't intend -- it's a fact of life on a message board, and not just this one. I think you're dealing with an unrealistic expectation, and splitting the thread is unlikely to make any difference.

quote:
You really do want to go on with your sophistry. 'Please' does not assume automatic compliance. That is why please is please and do now is do now. Therefore, I was not 'dictating' anything.

You haven't the foggiest notion of my wants -- and I contend that I am not engaging in sophistry of any kind. The word "please" in no way negates the context in which it is used. Here's an example: When I say to my daughter "Please go feed the dog" or "Please stop unravelling your good sweater", it is not a request per se -- I expect her to act on my instruction. Much as your "please just answer the question and don't engage in debate" is polite, it is not a simple request (and therefore optional to you), as evidenced by the rising strident note in your posts, any more than the "pleases" I direct to my daughter are. It is, when addressing other adults and equals, in fact, condescending, and might explain why you've encountered so much resistance.


From: Urban prairie. | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
James
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Babbler # 5341

posted 11 January 2005 01:50 PM      Profile for James        Edit/Delete Post
Can I ask a rhetorical question ?

What should we make of someone who joins a broad-based discussion board three weeks ago, posts on one and only one thread: one that they themself started and attempts to direct with an iron fist, and has linked to their own website ?

Welcome to someone's private little research lab.


From: Windsor; ON | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Suzette
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posted 11 January 2005 01:55 PM      Profile for Suzette     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Welcome to someone's private little research lab.

Indeed, James. I've felt like a participant in a survey from the outset. I feel the presence of a clipboard.


From: Pig City | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Timebandit
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posted 11 January 2005 02:02 PM      Profile for Timebandit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, me, too. Which is primarily why I haven't responded to the initial question, nor do I intend to.
From: Urban prairie. | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
faith
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posted 11 January 2005 02:06 PM      Profile for faith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is said that when a person makes a statement or asks a question they end up revealing more about themselves than they learn of others. I looked at the personal profile of this poster at the beginning of the thread to get a sense of who was asking the question.
The lack of information was a red flag as was the original question - I would find this one thread where the narrow framing of the original premise was not worth the bother.

From: vancouver | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Melsky
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posted 11 January 2005 02:10 PM      Profile for Melsky   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Zoot:
Yes, me, too. Which is primarily why I haven't responded to the initial question, nor do I intend to.

I feel the same way.


From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
blueskyboris
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Babbler # 7764

posted 11 January 2005 03:00 PM      Profile for blueskyboris   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Scout
"Don't get your hopes up. I don't think it can be done or even would be if it could be."

Of course not. That would mean that culture meant less than the idea of 'other people'.


Zoot
"Splitting the thread. What for? I've started threads that have gone off in directions that I didn't intend -- it's a fact of life on a message board, and not just this one. I think you're dealing with an unrealistic expectation, and splitting the thread is unlikely to make any difference."

Based on this logic we should not have a 'feminism' forum, but just one really big forum for discussing anything.

"You haven't the foggiest notion of my wants -- and I contend that I am not engaging in sophistry of any kind."

"Yes, me, too. Which is primarily why I haven't responded to the initial question, nor do I intend to."

But Appartently you have a pretty good idea of ME. Hypocrite.

"Here's an example: When I say to my daughter "Please go feed the dog" or "Please stop unravelling your good sweater", it is not a request per se -- I expect her to act on my instruction."

You are confused on the subject. The please you speak of is in relation to the parent-child relationship. When please is asked between two individuals, equal citizens with no authority, it is simply a request.


James
"What should we make of someone who joins a broad-based discussion board three weeks ago, posts on one and only one thread: one that they themself started and attempts to direct with an iron fist, and has linked to their own website ?"

I like this game: What should we make of a community that shits over politeness and upholds culture over interesting debate. Does deep, dank and dark come to anyone elses mind?

"Welcome to someone's private little research lab." Actually, i have already had debates like this. I said 'fuck it' because I hate idiotic attitudes that claim to respect everyone but in fact are only 'anarchistic' in the sense that 'never tell ME what to do' is the mantra. This sort of attitude leads to tyranny unchecked.

So, no, I do not have a clipboard. I have simply decided to have a debate on an issue that I consider important.

faith
"It is said that when a person makes a statement or asks a question they end up revealing more about themselves than they learn of others. I looked at the personal profile of this poster at the beginning of the thread to get a sense of who was asking the question.
The lack of information was a red flag as was the original question - I would find this one thread where the narrow framing of the original premise was not worth the bother."

Then you inhabit the world of 'who said' and not the world of 'what is right?'


From: Nova Scotia | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 11 January 2005 03:05 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Play on, babblers, play on.

Say, does anyone here use a slow cooker much?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bacchus
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Babbler # 4722

posted 11 January 2005 03:10 PM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I love slow cookers and make a awesome soup in it (though I've changed the recipe to allow it to be made in about 1 hour without a slow cooker.

I want to use it more actually but after I replace it with one with a programmable timer since Im a technogeel with kitchen gadgets


From: n/a | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
blueskyboris
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Babbler # 7764

posted 11 January 2005 03:15 PM      Profile for blueskyboris   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, we certainly are babbling.

Nah, I like stir fry. I like the freedom of it. Add a bunch of ingredients based on mood, stir and fry, and voila, a unique meal. Slow cookers lack this freedom.


From: Nova Scotia | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
paxamillion
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Babbler # 2836

posted 11 January 2005 03:21 PM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Play on, babblers, play on.

*shiver*


From: the process of recovery | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
blueskyboris
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posted 11 January 2005 03:24 PM      Profile for blueskyboris   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is like the difference between pizza and BBQ ribs. The ribs are pretty much the same, over and over again, excepting the type of BBQ sauce used; whereas pizza can have any ingredients put on its yummy surface. The tomato sauce has a lot to do with this, because it is fruity and a fruit that combines well with many spices. Tomato sauce is a lot like water in this respect.
From: Nova Scotia | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 11 January 2005 03:24 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
pax, you were my inspiration.

I hadn't thought of that before. But it looks more and more likely, eh?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Melsky
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Babbler # 4748

posted 11 January 2005 03:25 PM      Profile for Melsky   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Play on, babblers, play on.

Say, does anyone here use a slow cooker much?


I use mine all the time. I just made a fantastic black bean soup last week.


From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 11 January 2005 03:30 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh, Melsky: can we have the recipe? I love black bean soup, any kind of bean soup.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
blueskyboris
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Babbler # 7764

posted 11 January 2005 03:36 PM      Profile for blueskyboris   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You have such pretty nose hairs.
From: Nova Scotia | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
faith
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posted 11 January 2005 03:37 PM      Profile for faith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I also have a slow cooker that I don't use enough and I would absolutely love a recipe for black bean soup.
I have made an "Old Fashioned Pumpkin Cake " in my slow cooker that was absolutely delicious.
You just insert a crockery bowl or souffle dish inside the crockpot to mold the cake .

From: vancouver | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 11 January 2005 03:40 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So it's like a steamed pudding, faith?
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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Babbler # 1595

posted 11 January 2005 03:40 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Scout
"Don't get your hopes up. I don't think it can be done or even would be if it could be."
Of course not. That would mean that culture meant less than the idea of 'other people'.

I just meant because of software limitations mostly. But fine, be a dick about it. It only makes you look bad.

And the rest I said is because Audra has another life outside of moderating babble and splitting threads apart to appease one babbler would take up an awful lot of time. The Middle East forum would be a nightmare if we could split the threads for example.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
blueskyboris
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posted 11 January 2005 03:53 PM      Profile for blueskyboris   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Scout
"I just meant because of software limitations mostly. But fine, be a dick about it. It only makes you look bad."

If that is indeed what you meant then you should not have tagged on the ambiguous "or even would be if it could be."


"And the rest I said is because Audra has another life outside of moderating babble and splitting threads apart to appease one babbler would take up an awful lot of time. The Middle East forum would be a nightmare if we could split the threads for example." Fair enough, a couple of people moderating an entire forum is cumbersome. True. Of couse, I am not arguing that this thread should be split because it digressed, but because it disgressed on this specific issue. If we were to split the thread and then it digressed from the OP I no longer have an issue. This sort of exchange is a major waste of time.


From: Nova Scotia | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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posted 11 January 2005 03:58 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If that is indeed what you meant then you should not have tagged on the ambiguous "or even would be if it could be."

Well, we don't have avatars either and tons of forums do. Stop being so difficult. I covered both reasons why it likely won't happen. Tough luck you don't like how I said it.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
blueskyboris
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posted 11 January 2005 03:58 PM      Profile for blueskyboris   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Let me expand further on the spirit of the OP. When Naomi Wolf first asked the question the world of philosophical discourse was still a very centralized, undemocratic world, by definition of the the one-way street nature of print. Today that has changed radically, and I think we should be more aware as to the potential of this new reality. So I ask the same question Naomi asked in 1990, but to a real audience that can respond.
From: Nova Scotia | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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posted 11 January 2005 04:01 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Posters are still going to want to know what your motivation is. Like why are you linking this thread to your site? What is your site about? Until you answer these questions I doubt most babblers are going to answer the question.
From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
blueskyboris
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posted 11 January 2005 04:01 PM      Profile for blueskyboris   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And more importantly: To anyone who has a computer and happens upon Babble or my website.
From: Nova Scotia | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
blueskyboris
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posted 11 January 2005 04:04 PM      Profile for blueskyboris   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Scout
"Posters are still going to want to know what your motivation is. Like why are you linking this thread to your site? What is your site about? Until you answer these questions I doubt most babblers are going to answer the question."

What do you think it is about? You seem awefully preoccupied with 'motivation'. Maybe the issue is at rest if this is the case. Only the free can truly contemplate power.


From: Nova Scotia | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
faith
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posted 11 January 2005 04:04 PM      Profile for faith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Skdadl , I thought it would be like a steamed pudding which is not what I was looking for but as I had never made a cake in a crockpot I thought I'd give it a try. The result was a moist cake somewhat like a carrott cake in consistency - it was very good.
Can you cook a thread in a crockpot? Stick a fork in it I think it's done.

From: vancouver | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Melsky
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posted 11 January 2005 04:07 PM      Profile for Melsky   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I just kind of improvised the black bean soup, but here's what I did:

Sautee garlic, onions, carrots and celery. I made a big batch and used about 2 cups each of the carrots and celery, and about 3 cups of onions. I was out of fresh garlic so I used garlic powder.

After the sauteed mixture was nice and tender, I put it in the crock pot, and added 2 cans of black beans . Before heating it, I took out my hand-held mixer and mixed it up right in the crock pot. I added chicken stock and water, and cooked for a long time. Before serving I added salt to taste.

Skedadl, I heard that you know where to get a Thai chicken sausage in Toronto. Care to enlighten me?


From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 11 January 2005 04:13 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh, Melsky, that is a sad story.

Grocery Gateway, in its heyday, was selling these amazing spicy chicken sausages. I mean, they were superb. I used them, sliced and browned on all sides, with some browned sweet peppers and chilis and anythink else I had about, simmered at the end in small amounts of water, just enough to scrape up the brown bits and make gravy, to toss over rice noodles -- perfect summer dish, so light.

But! Grocery Gateway sold itself out! They have been bought by Longo's (a supermarket chain). The website still operates, but it is a pale imitation of its former self. I still get some deliveries sometimes for very heavy stuff, since I don't have a car, but most of the interesting food they used to sell has vanished from the site.

Next week I will try again to see whether they still have the chicken sausages, but I expect little. Last week, they had no yoghurt, would you believe.

I told you it was a sad story. But I'm sure there are good delis around that sell spicy chicken sausages. Loblaws might even have moderately acceptable ones. I wish I could remember the makers of the GG ones.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
blueskyboris
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posted 11 January 2005 04:14 PM      Profile for blueskyboris   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, skdadl, don't talk to Bluesky, talk about cooking. Revert to that 'womaness' that is in complete contradition with Wolf, Firestone, Greer, and Beauvoir. That'll teach me. It is at this point that I wholeheartedly agree with Shulamith.

[ 11 January 2005: Message edited by: blueskyboris ]


From: Nova Scotia | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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posted 11 January 2005 04:16 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
What do you think it is about? You seem awefully preoccupied with 'motivation'. Maybe the issue is at rest if this is the case. Only the free can truly contemplate power.

Whatever. You seem very intrested in avoiding telling us why you want to use this thread on your website.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 11 January 2005 04:17 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
I told you it was a sad story. But I'm sure there are good delis around that sell spicy chicken sausages. Loblaws might even have moderately acceptable ones. I wish I could remember the makers of the GG ones.

They're still around then? I figured GG would have gone the way of the dodo by now since their "new and improved" service.

Have you tried googling the chicken sausages to see if you could find them? Sometimes if you can find the manufacturer, then you can figure out where to find them. Some manufacturers even have a list of retail locations where their product is available.

These ones look pretty good - but they're from Wisconsin. Are meats allowed to be shipped over the border for individual orders?

[ 11 January 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 11 January 2005 04:19 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hey, blueskyboris: the women on this board are living, breathing women, eh? We don't mainly do our feminism by name-dropping. We have, ah, lived as women, and that is mainly how feminism gets inscribed here.

I find your notion of philosophical authority -- some American media pop star -- simply risible. I can promise you that Greer and de Beauvoir would have as well.

You wanna learn about feminism? Listen to us. Don't order us about, or try to intimidate us with what obviously are pretentiously heavy references to you, but are pretty light stuff to most of us.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
blueskyboris
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posted 11 January 2005 04:24 PM      Profile for blueskyboris   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, both sex-hierarchies should be completely abolished on the biological level, because men are all about control and women all about submissiveness (and hence feminists all about unthinking revolt). Let us destroy this useless discourse and replace it with a new humanity based on politeness.
From: Nova Scotia | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 11 January 2005 04:25 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Aww, skdadl, I'm disappointed. It was such an obvious troll on blueskyboris's part to invoke feminist deities.

Now, back to the more important discussion on this thread: spicy Thai chicken sausages.

Maple Leaf Foods makes them. (Scroll down to the bottom of the list on that page.) Could these be the ones you were getting?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Scott Piatkowski
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posted 11 January 2005 04:28 PM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Anyone else?

quote:
Anyone else?

quote:
Anyone else?

quote:
Anyone else?

quote:
Anyone else?

quote:
Anyone else?

quote:
Anyone else?


From: Kitchener-Waterloo | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 11 January 2005 04:33 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Michelle, that looks like them, doesn't it. But how does one procure them?

I guess I could write to Longo's, aka GG. It's true that I boycotted the reinvented GG for months, but then, when the bad weather set in, I decided to try my account out again, mainly for the mass quantities or heavy stuff.

It's nothing like the old days, but it semi-works. I order 24 tins of my cat food; they deliver 12. There are always a few things that just don't show up (although I don't get charged -- their accounting is good). Like the yoghurt. And you just never know what will come through on your order and what won't, until the delivery arrives.

Plus: they've increased the delivery charge. It is ridiculous, something like $9? And we've lost our discounts for having regular reserved time-slots. Etc.

But worst of all: the selection is pathetic. I don't know why the GG people gave up -- they had worked up such a network of interesting suppliers. Now, it's just Longo's, promoting themselves.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Melsky
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posted 11 January 2005 04:35 PM      Profile for Melsky   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

They're still around then? I figured GG would have gone the way of the dodo by now since their "new and improved" service.

Have you tried googling the chicken sausages to see if you could find them? Sometimes if you can find the manufacturer, then you can figure out where to find them. Some manufacturers even have a list of retail locations where their product is available.

These ones look pretty good - but they're from Wisconsin. Are meats allowed to be shipped over the border for individual orders?

[ 11 January 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]



That Wisconsin site does deliver to Canada, but you have to call to find out what the extra shipping is. I called Maple Leaf and they said they should be available at Food Basics, Longos, Sobeys, IGA and Price Chopper. Though I know I have been to some of those stores and didn't see them.

From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
faith
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posted 11 January 2005 04:38 PM      Profile for faith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Scott could you please explain ,I don't get it .
From: vancouver | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
blueskyboris
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posted 11 January 2005 04:40 PM      Profile for blueskyboris   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Scout
"Whatever. You seem very intrested in avoiding telling us why you want to use this thread on your website."

And you seem to be very interested in not expressing your appraisal of my 'motivations'. Please stop insinuating and clearly express what it is that you mean by 'motivations'.


Skdadl
"the women on this board are living, breathing women, eh?" Of course. Do you think that I think they are dead, unbreathing corpses?

"We don't mainly do our feminism by name-dropping. We have, ah, lived as women, and that is mainly how feminism gets inscribed here."

Who said you did?

And living as women, just as any other type of living in human society, means living in relation to the Other.

"I find your notion of philosophical authority -- some American media pop star -- simply risible. I can promise you that Greer and de Beauvoir would have as well."

I am sorry, but could you please point to my 'philosophical authority'? I have simply made arguments.

"You wanna learn about feminism?"

I am no pup, dear.

"Listen to us."

I have certainly have been. Look at the on topic posts.

"Don't order us about," Again, I reject your assumption that 'please' can be equated to naked demand.

"or try to intimidate us with what obviously are pretentiously heavy references to you, but are pretty light stuff to most of us."

I am not quite sure what you mean here.

[ 11 January 2005: Message edited by: blueskyboris ]


From: Nova Scotia | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Scott Piatkowski
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1299

posted 11 January 2005 04:41 PM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Faith, I guess it would have been clearer if I had posted...

quote:
Originally posted by blueskyboris:
Anyone else?

quote:
Originally posted by blueskyboris:
Anyone else?

quote:
Originally posted by blueskyboris:
Anyone else?

quote:
Originally posted by blueskyboris:
Anyone else?

quote:
Originally posted by blueskyboris:
Anyone else?

quote:
Originally posted by blueskyboris:
Anyone else?

quote:
Originally posted by blueskyboris:
Anyone else?


From: Kitchener-Waterloo | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
blueskyboris
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7764

posted 11 January 2005 04:47 PM      Profile for blueskyboris   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Anyone else, Scott?

Anyone else?

Anyone else?

Anyone else?

Obviously anyone you do not like who speaks of 'feminist deities' is a troll. OBVIOUSLY.


From: Nova Scotia | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
blueskyboris
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posted 11 January 2005 04:49 PM      Profile for blueskyboris   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
OBVIOUSLY.
From: Nova Scotia | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 11 January 2005 04:53 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
OBVIOUSLY.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
blueskyboris
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posted 11 January 2005 04:54 PM      Profile for blueskyboris   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am no pub! Really, i am no pub!

[ 11 January 2005: Message edited by: blueskyboris ]


From: Nova Scotia | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
blueskyboris
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posted 11 January 2005 04:56 PM      Profile for blueskyboris   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
OBVIOUSLY.
From: Nova Scotia | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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Babbler # 1595

posted 11 January 2005 04:58 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And you seem to be very interested in not expressing your appraisal of my 'motivations'. Please stop insinuating and clearly express what it is that you mean by 'motivations'.

I canít express my appraisal of your motivations because your motivations are unclear. Why are you asking this question and posting the link to your website. What is your website about. What are you getting out of this? I canít possible be any clearer.

quote:
I am no pub, dear.

Dear? Yikes.

What do you mean by ďpubĒ?


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
blueskyboris
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posted 11 January 2005 05:11 PM      Profile for blueskyboris   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am no pub. (brain bads are always slightly embarrassing)


"I canít express my appraisal of your motivations because your motivations are unclear."

I am in the middle of writing a description.

"Why are you asking this question and posting the link to your website. What is your website about."

To have a good debate on the subject, obviously.

To have good debates on a specific subject, obviously. What did you think my website is about?

"What are you getting out of this? I canít possible be any clearer."

Pleasure of debating and increasing my knowledge of these subjects while creating a database of debates on specific issues that 'philosopher' consider important. I think one of the major problems is that people do not have the time to tackle philosophy and the texts are overwhelmingly dense and involved, even though the subject matter is important. Having debates on specific issues should alleviate this to a certain extent for those who are searching.

I am no pub! OBVIOUSLY.


From: Nova Scotia | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Scout
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1595

posted 11 January 2005 05:26 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I am no pub. (brain bads are always slightly embarrassing)

What?

quote:
I am in the middle of writing a description.

Was that really so hard? I have only asked several times!

quote:
To have a good debate on the subject, obviously.

Far from obvious, obviously. Otherwise why would we keep asking you.

quote:
To have good debates on a specific subject, obviously. What did you think my website is about?

But they are other peopleís debates from other places, so I was a tad confused, so I asked for clarification. The website is unclear.

quote:
Pleasure of debating and increasing my knowledge of these subjects while creating a database of debates on specific issues that 'philosopher' consider important. I think one of the major problems is that people do not have the time to tackle philosophy and the texts are overwhelmingly dense and involved, even though the subject matter is important. Having debates on specific issues should alleviate this to a certain extent for those who are searching.

Creating a database. Couldnít you have just said so days ago? Couldnít you just have made the effort to be sure your use of a link to here in this manner was cool with the staff? Why couldnít you have been civil and polite about it!

quote:
I am no pub! OBVIOUSLY.

Itís not fucking obvious to me, thatís why I keep fucking asking!

What is obvious is that youíre difficult and rude on purpose!


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
faith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4348

posted 11 January 2005 05:51 PM      Profile for faith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Scott , I went away and it became clear, that was quite good.
From: vancouver | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
remind
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6289

posted 11 January 2005 08:34 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My observation on this thread is that blueskyboris's web site has 1 woman appearing on it to be discussed. As if there are NO other women thinkers than Naomi Wolfe, to have a discussion on.

'enuff said.


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
blueskyboris
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7764

posted 11 January 2005 10:38 PM      Profile for blueskyboris   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"But they are other peopleís debates from other places, so I was a tad confused, so I asked for clarification. The website is unclear."

Yes, from different perspectives.

It indeed seems to be unclear. Of course, I wonder why no one just said that. All this 'motivations' talk really had me bugged.

"Creating a database. Couldnít you have just said so days ago? Couldnít you just have made the effort to be sure your use of a link to here in this manner was cool with the staff? Why couldnít you have been civil and polite about it!"

True, and you could have made it clearer by what you meant by 'motivations' and 'what are you after'. From my point of view those words are insinuation-phrases for selfishness.

"My observation on this thread is that blueskyboris's web site has 1 woman appearing on it to be discussed. As if there are NO other women thinkers than Naomi Wolfe, to have a discussion on."

Yes, that is true, but only because, historically, most philosophers have been male. That said, my site is in its infancy and hence does not have many authors on it. The authors you see now are simply preliminary. I am certainly keen on introducing more feminist threads and woman-philosopher threads, but that is wholly constrained by the limited nature of the unfolding of being.


From: Nova Scotia | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
remind
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6289

posted 12 January 2005 12:45 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Scout
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1595

posted 12 January 2005 01:06 AM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
True, and you could have made it clearer by what you meant by 'motivations' and 'what are you after'. From my point of view those words are insinuation-phrases for selfishness.

Ya, it's so my fault.

[ 12 January 2005: Message edited by: Scout ]


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6477

posted 12 January 2005 01:15 AM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

Philosophise that.

From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
blueskyboris
rabble-rouser
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posted 12 January 2005 08:38 AM      Profile for blueskyboris   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You guys should change over from Internet Explorer to Firefox. Firefox is easily superior and much more secure. You guys do not know what you are missing with 'tabbed browsing'.
From: Nova Scotia | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 12 January 2005 11:10 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Excuse moi? I am on Firefox. But I have no idea how that is supposed to be helping me to understand the bizarre theatre that is this thread.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
rabble-rouser
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posted 12 January 2005 11:42 AM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
aaaaaaaaaaaand scene.
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged

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