Wikipedia:

The passage above is the opening paragraph of Naomi Wolf's The Beauty Myth, written in 1990. I would like posters to answer Wolf's question as if she was asking the question today, so let me ask the question anew: A generation after the second-wave feminists acted, and fourteen years after Naomi Wolf wrote The Beauty Myth, do women feel free?

Those interested in participating in or reading other LOVE OF WISDOM debates should click here.

[ 01 January 2005: Message edited by: blueskyboris ]

[ 05 January 2005: Message edited by: blueskyboris ]

I have been oppressed, sure - within the framework of an abusive relationship. But oppression by society? No. I enjoy all the freedom I want - the freedom to make my own way in this world, without needing to worry about having a husband to legitimize my existence (or the existence of my children), the freedom to compete for jobs alongside men, to make the same wage as men, etc.

I read both books by Ms Klein, and found them very inspiring. Fire With Fire especially resonated with me, as money issues are linked inextricably with my feeling of personal success and security. In that book, she urges women to take financial control of their lives, which means (possibly) joining with other women to achieve financial mastery.

[ 05 January 2005: Message edited by: steffie ]

[ 05 January 2005: Message edited by: blueskyboris ]

And, beyond that, my time in university and my time at the hospital taught me how much more vulnerable women are and how women look for external answers to their problems always seeing it as someone else's problem to solve. I had been very sheltered from many social issues and then was immersed full force in seeing women as victims of their own thinking, victims of familial abuse, and victims of random violence. I believe that after my awareness of how prevelant rape was and how unpredictable some risk factors are I stopped feeling safe. I haven't felt safe in probably two years now. And, to me, you need to feel safe in order to feel free.

[ 06 January 2005: Message edited by: blueskyboris ]

The freedoms that steffie listed above women in Canada now have in theory, because we have laws affirming our equality and courts that will back us up if we turn to them.

We didn't get those laws, though, because a majority of citizens demanded them, and I'm not sure that, even now, a majority would defend them if they were put to a vote in a referendum. I sense some backsliding, actually. There is a backlash against feminism, and it has had an impact.

In other words, I'm not convinced that a majority of my fellow citizens really believe in women's equality or believe in defending it legally, so that makes me moderately nervous.

On a more personal level people don’t anticipating the choices that I make in my own life strictly because I am a woman - making assumptions about who will take maternity leave in my relationship, what choices I will make about other things etc.

While I feel free, women are not as a whole free. Women are still not paid the same across the board. Women are still victimized by their partners and left financially vulnerable. Many women can’t afford to choose to stay home with their children.

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Originally posted by skdadl:
But both de Beauvoir and whazzername (American woman, talking about housewife malaise) ...

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I'm not sure that, even now, a majority would defend [women's rights] if they were put to a vote in a referendum. I sense some backsliding, actually.

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[...] women want everything [...] there is an unspoken historic and psychological barrier, which means that when women do try to be the most that they can be, they are stopped; they are stopped by the flaws that they have developed, by the society that they cannot manage or by the very idea that a woman could want anything. - Adrienne Clarkson, from the Foreward to Dropped Threads 2: More of What We Aren't Told, Ed. Carol Shields and Marjorie Anderson.

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Are the courts dealing better with rape and incest cases? I don't think so. Are men becoming aware of women as people with needs apart from themselves? Some are but for the most part I don't see that around me on a day-to-day basis. In my conversations with men, they don't even admit to the possibility that women are not so free. That's scary and sad.

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We didn't get those laws, though, because a majority of citizens demanded them,

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and I'm not sure that, even now, a majority would defend them if they were put to a vote in a referendum.

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I sense some backsliding, actually. There is a backlash against feminism, and it has had an impact.

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However, back to the topic: we do have much more freedom than we choose to exercise.
Women have been driving me nuts, over the past 15 or so years, by acting as if they'd never been liberated. Siding with a patriarchal authority (church, state, spouse, pop culture, social peer-group) against other - and by extension all - women's interests. Refusing to plan beyond the next week or year. Choosing terrible mates - and staying with terrible mates. Failing to take control of their lives when they had the opportunity. Chickening out on personal, moral, social and political decisions.

On the other hand, there are obstacles to freedom that many of us can't help. We care for people: children, parents, husbands, friends, the homeless, the sick, the disabled, the disaster-stricken, the disenfranchised. It's theoretically possible to walk away from responsibility, but many of us are constitutionally incapable of doing so. Caring is a major trap. (Of course, this is equally true of decent men.)

But we got that ... by lucky accident? From believing all that idealist fluff in ... books? And finding that ... it actually works?

Because not everyone feels that way, as I know you know.

And furthermore:

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True, but this would also be true of social justice in general. The majority of people never demand or care about anything: it's usually up to a more advanced minority in a position to make changes. That it happened at all is a measure of the quality of political leadership we had at the time.

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nonesuch, I think that you just found a serious use for the dreaded middle-class intellectual.

I know. They annoy me too. But we owe some of them, big time.

EVERYONE: Please do not digress into extended debate in this thread. This thread is exclusively for answers, not arguments. Do women feel free?

Anyone else?

[ 09 January 2005: Message edited by: blueskyboris ]

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EVERYONE: Please do not digress into extended debate in this thread. This thread is exclusively for answers, not arguments. Do women feel free?

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Babble doesn't really work that way.

Also, did you check with Audra before linking an entire babble thread to your website?

[ 10 January 2005: Message edited by: Scout ]

Anyone else?

[ 10 January 2005: Message edited by: blueskyboris ]

Rudely, repeatedly, trying to force people to do your bidding here isn't too nice either. You aren't a moderator and you don't own this thread even though you started it. You might want to respect the environment your coming into before you try and dictate to it's members.

[ 10 January 2005: Message edited by: Scout ]

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Originally posted by blueskyboris:
EVERYONE: Please do not digress into extended debate in this thread. This thread is exclusively for answers, not arguments. Do women feel free?

Anyone else?

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First off, the content is not on my website. Second, Babble is a public forum, and as such can be read by anyone, so my links are of the spirit of Babble.

"Rudely, repeatedly, trying to force people to do your bidding here isn't too nice either."

Nothing rude about it. I politely asked you stay on topic and not derail the thread. It is you who are being rude. "Please" does not in any way constitute force. You only recognize 'please' as a way of force because you do not respect the freedom of other people.

"You aren't a moderator and you don't own this thread even though you started it." W

Who said I was? I politely asked you to stay on topic. Nothing more.

"You might want to respect the environment your coming into before you try and dictate to it's members."

Again, "please" is not a form of dictatorship. If you don't like the topic, I suggest you find another thread, but I reserve the right to politely asked posters to stay on topic.

Respect is a two-way street that includes at least two people. Your manipulation of language to make my 'please' look authoritarian is sign of your lack of respect for other people and your general sophistry. In no way can 'please' be construed as dictatorial.

Anyone else?

[ 10 January 2005: Message edited by: blueskyboris ]

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there will be manners.

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Yeah, there is a bit of a contradiction there and I am embarrassed to say that I should have outlined this in the OP.

This is my point: Debate will turn this thread into a debate over positions, when all I want are opinions from individuals in the community.

Actually, you know what? Fuck it. Argue away.

Really? I also consider you a troll. Guess we have something in common! Unfortunately, I would not call anyone a troll, because only a troll calls another a troll.

[ 10 January 2005: Message edited by: blueskyboris ]

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Originally posted by blueskyboris:
...whereas I simply ask, politely, people to stay on topic and only answer the question.

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You talk of 'freedom' but you have no idea what that means, because you 'TELL ME WHAT I CAN AND CAN NOT DO AT BABBLE' which is very authoritarian, whereas I simply ask, politely, people to stay on topic and only answer the question.

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And you trying to tell us how to post on babble isn’t a problem? Pot and kettle ring a bell? After all, it's you who are trying to take something from us for your personal use, you’d think you could be a little less bossy, especially when you have been asked to back off a bit and given information about the place your soliciting information from. I answered honestly and yet you aren’t being too forthcoming about why you are asking for all these answers and if you cleared your little project with Audra.

Because this…

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Those interested in participating in or reading other LOVE OF WISDOM debates should click here.

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I am glad that 'thread-drift' is part of the 'culture', but I am also glad to inform you that culture does not exist in a bubble. Besides, your justification from 'culture' ignores the individuals in the community. Are you denying that 'culture' is created by individuals and community?

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Originally posted by Zoot:
I have to wonder if that wasn't the point in the first place. A little experiment, perhaps?

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boris, unless one is audra, no one lays down the law on babble. And your way of expressing yourself keeps sounding as though you are laying down the law.

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If no one but the Great Audra lays down the law on 'babble rabble.ca' then please stop making prounouncements as if you make the law! Remember, it is not me who started with the DO THIS language. 'Please' is in no way DO THIS language.

Isn't it ironic, don't you think? 1) Talking about 'laws' on a 'rabble-based' website (If left-wingers are all about liberation, then this sort of talk is anti-rabble) and 2) proclaminng that a person can not politely ask others to stay on topic because YOU SAY SO. Your hypocritical stance is anti-left and authoritarian.

Albireo

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Exactly, skdadl, and it grates against me like sandpaper undies.

Anyone else?

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Alberio

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And you trying to tell us how to post on babble isn’t a problem?

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Pot and kettle ring a bell?

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Scout

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After all, it's you who are trying to take something from us for your personal use,

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you’d think you could be a little less bossy,

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especially when you have been asked to back off a bit and given information about the place

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your soliciting information from.

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I answered honestly and yet you aren’t being too forthcoming about why you are asking for all these answers and if you cleared your little project with Audra.

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…could be seen as advertising, and that isn’t free around here. But you seem to be more defensive than interested in babble policy or culture.

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Get over yourself.

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This is antagonistic, rude and condescending.

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You have been almost patriarchal

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in your repeated attempts to control the feminists answering your question.

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[ 10 January 2005: Message edited by: blueskyboris ]

Nevertheless, when I read your first post, my initial thought was "What's your point?" I'm still waiting to figure that out before I'm inclined to respond one way or another. I suspect, given the early lack of response from others, I'm not the only one.

I am looking to build a thread around Naomi's question, but asked in the present. It was certainly my bad that I did not make this clearer in the OP.

Are you in fact asking another question?

[ 11 January 2005: Message edited by: blueskyboris ]

[ 11 January 2005: Message edited by: blueskyboris ]

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We seem to have a different philosophy of please. I see please as a civil way of asking for compliance or respect and there is no requirment that the one who uses please must use other means if rejected. For example, i could have simply ignored you or dropped out of the thread cursing at rude people. 'Bossy', however, is simply a demand, with a threat that 'I will do X' lurking not too far away.

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[ 11 January 2005: Message edited by: blueskyboris ]

[ 11 January 2005: Message edited by: blueskyboris ]

[ 11 January 2005: Message edited by: Hailey ]

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Originally posted by blueskyboris:
We seem to have a different philosophy of please. I see please as a civil way of asking for compliance or respect and there is no requirment that the one who uses please must use other means if rejected.

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Of course you do not have a strong personal interest, Hailey. The thread topic is rather narrow and hence once you have answered the question it becomes of little consequence to you. The question is too broad to be answered in one thread, which is why I didn't want to digress.

[ 11 January 2005: Message edited by: blueskyboris ]

[ 11 January 2005: Message edited by: blueskyboris ]

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Originally posted by paxamillion:
Does anyone else get a vote?

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Originally posted by Human Fly:
Hey, pax: speaking of voting, what are your thoughts on the Single Transferable Vote issue?

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Originally posted by paxamillion:

I've not read much on it. However, it seems to have some merit.

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Yes, of course.

Zoot
"Why would anyone bother?"

Why would anyone bother what?

"If you want directed threads that one can dictate questions and direct answers only, you should consider starting and moderating your own message board."

You really do want to go on with your sophistry. 'Please' does not assume automatic compliance. That is why please is please and do now is do now. Therefore, I was not 'dictating' anything.

"That isn't really the way babble works or is moderated -- not being confrontational here, just explaining what I've observed over the last 3+ years on this board. Most of the people here are interested in debate and discussion of issues, not simply answering a question and wandering off."

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So lets split the thread.

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Why would anyone bother what?

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Splitting the thread. What for? I've started threads that have gone off in directions that I didn't intend -- it's a fact of life on a message board, and not just this one. I think you're dealing with an unrealistic expectation, and splitting the thread is unlikely to make any difference.

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You really do want to go on with your sophistry. 'Please' does not assume automatic compliance. That is why please is please and do now is do now. Therefore, I was not 'dictating' anything.

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What should we make of someone who joins a broad-based discussion board three weeks ago, posts on one and only one thread: one that they themself started and attempts to direct with an iron fist, and has linked to their own website ?

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Welcome to someone's private little research lab.

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Originally posted by Zoot:
Yes, me, too. Which is primarily why I haven't responded to the initial question, nor do I intend to.

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Of course not. That would mean that culture meant less than the idea of 'other people'.

Zoot
"Splitting the thread. What for? I've started threads that have gone off in directions that I didn't intend -- it's a fact of life on a message board, and not just this one. I think you're dealing with an unrealistic expectation, and splitting the thread is unlikely to make any difference."

Based on this logic we should not have a 'feminism' forum, but just one really big forum for discussing anything.

"You haven't the foggiest notion of my wants -- and I contend that I am not engaging in sophistry of any kind."

"Yes, me, too. Which is primarily why I haven't responded to the initial question, nor do I intend to."

But Appartently you have a pretty good idea of ME. Hypocrite.

"Here's an example: When I say to my daughter "Please go feed the dog" or "Please stop unravelling your good sweater", it is not a request per se -- I expect her to act on my instruction."

You are confused on the subject. The please you speak of is in relation to the parent-child relationship. When please is asked between two individuals, equal citizens with no authority, it is simply a request.

James
"What should we make of someone who joins a broad-based discussion board three weeks ago, posts on one and only one thread: one that they themself started and attempts to direct with an iron fist, and has linked to their own website ?"

I like this game: What should we make of a community that shits over politeness and upholds culture over interesting debate. Does deep, dank and dark come to anyone elses mind?

"Welcome to someone's private little research lab." Actually, i have already had debates like this. I said 'fuck it' because I hate idiotic attitudes that claim to respect everyone but in fact are only 'anarchistic' in the sense that 'never tell ME what to do' is the mantra. This sort of attitude leads to tyranny unchecked.

So, no, I do not have a clipboard. I have simply decided to have a debate on an issue that I consider important.

faith
"It is said that when a person makes a statement or asks a question they end up revealing more about themselves than they learn of others. I looked at the personal profile of this poster at the beginning of the thread to get a sense of who was asking the question.
The lack of information was a red flag as was the original question - I would find this one thread where the narrow framing of the original premise was not worth the bother."

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Originally posted by skdadl:
Play on, babblers, play on.

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Originally posted by skdadl:
Play on, babblers, play on.

Say, does anyone here use a slow cooker much?

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Scout
"Don't get your hopes up. I don't think it can be done or even would be if it could be."
Of course not. That would mean that culture meant less than the idea of 'other people'.

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I just meant because of software limitations mostly. But fine, be a dick about it. It only makes you look bad.

If that is indeed what you meant then you should not have tagged on the ambiguous "or even would be if it could be."

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If that is indeed what you meant then you should not have tagged on the ambiguous "or even would be if it could be."

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Sautee garlic, onions, carrots and celery. I made a big batch and used about 2 cups each of the carrots and celery, and about 3 cups of onions. I was out of fresh garlic so I used garlic powder.

After the sauteed mixture was nice and tender, I put it in the crock pot, and added 2 cans of black beans . Before heating it, I took out my hand-held mixer and mixed it up right in the crock pot. I added chicken stock and water, and cooked for a long time. Before serving I added salt to taste.

Grocery Gateway, in its heyday, was selling these amazing spicy chicken sausages. I mean, they were superb. I used them, sliced and browned on all sides, with some browned sweet peppers and chilis and anythink else I had about, simmered at the end in small amounts of water, just enough to scrape up the brown bits and make gravy, to toss over rice noodles -- perfect summer dish, so light.

But! Grocery Gateway sold itself out! They have been bought by Longo's (a supermarket chain). The website still operates, but it is a pale imitation of its former self. I still get some deliveries sometimes for very heavy stuff, since I don't have a car, but most of the interesting food they used to sell has vanished from the site.

Next week I will try again to see whether they still have the chicken sausages, but I expect little. Last week, they had no yoghurt, would you believe.

[ 11 January 2005: Message edited by: blueskyboris ]

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What do you think it is about? You seem awefully preoccupied with 'motivation'. Maybe the issue is at rest if this is the case. Only the free can truly contemplate power.

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Originally posted by skdadl:
I told you it was a sad story. But I'm sure there are good delis around that sell spicy chicken sausages. Loblaws might even have moderately acceptable ones. I wish I could remember the makers of the GG ones.

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They're still around then? I figured GG would have gone the way of the dodo by now since their "new and improved" service.

Have you tried googling the chicken sausages to see if you could find them? Sometimes if you can find the manufacturer, then you can figure out where to find them. Some manufacturers even have a list of retail locations where their product is available.

These ones look pretty good - but they're from Wisconsin. Are meats allowed to be shipped over the border for individual orders?

[ 11 January 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]

I find your notion of philosophical authority -- some American media pop star -- simply risible. I can promise you that Greer and de Beauvoir would have as well.

Now, back to the more important discussion on this thread: spicy Thai chicken sausages.

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Anyone else?

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Anyone else?

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Anyone else?

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Anyone else?

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Anyone else?

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Anyone else?

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I guess I could write to Longo's, aka GG. It's true that I boycotted the reinvented GG for months, but then, when the bad weather set in, I decided to try my account out again, mainly for the mass quantities or heavy stuff.

It's nothing like the old days, but it semi-works. I order 24 tins of my cat food; they deliver 12. There are always a few things that just don't show up (although I don't get charged -- their accounting is good). Like the yoghurt. And you just never know what will come through on your order and what won't, until the delivery arrives.

Plus: they've increased the delivery charge. It is ridiculous, something like $9? And we've lost our discounts for having regular reserved time-slots. Etc.

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Originally posted by Michelle:

They're still around then? I figured GG would have gone the way of the dodo by now since their "new and improved" service.

Have you tried googling the chicken sausages to see if you could find them? Sometimes if you can find the manufacturer, then you can figure out where to find them. Some manufacturers even have a list of retail locations where their product is available.

These ones look pretty good - but they're from Wisconsin. Are meats allowed to be shipped over the border for individual orders?

[ 11 January 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]

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And you seem to be very interested in not expressing your appraisal of my 'motivations'. Please stop insinuating and clearly express what it is that you mean by 'motivations'.

Skdadl
"the women on this board are living, breathing women, eh?" Of course. Do you think that I think they are dead, unbreathing corpses?

"We don't mainly do our feminism by name-dropping. We have, ah, lived as women, and that is mainly how feminism gets inscribed here."

Who said you did?

And living as women, just as any other type of living in human society, means living in relation to the Other.

"I find your notion of philosophical authority -- some American media pop star -- simply risible. I can promise you that Greer and de Beauvoir would have as well."

I am sorry, but could you please point to my 'philosophical authority'? I have simply made arguments.

"You wanna learn about feminism?"

I am no pup, dear.

"Listen to us."

I have certainly have been. Look at the on topic posts.

"Don't order us about," Again, I reject your assumption that 'please' can be equated to naked demand.

"or try to intimidate us with what obviously are pretentiously heavy references to you, but are pretty light stuff to most of us."

I am not quite sure what you mean here.

[ 11 January 2005: Message edited by: blueskyboris ]

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Originally posted by blueskyboris:
Anyone else?

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Originally posted by blueskyboris:
Anyone else?

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Originally posted by blueskyboris:
Anyone else?

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Originally posted by blueskyboris:
Anyone else?

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Originally posted by blueskyboris:
Anyone else?

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Originally posted by blueskyboris:
Anyone else?

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Originally posted by blueskyboris:
Anyone else?

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Anyone else?

Anyone else?

Anyone else?

[ 11 January 2005: Message edited by: blueskyboris ]

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And you seem to be very interested in not expressing your appraisal of my 'motivations'. Please stop insinuating and clearly express what it is that you mean by 'motivations'.

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I can’t express my appraisal of your motivations because your motivations are unclear. Why are you asking this question and posting the link to your website. What is your website about. What are you getting out of this? I can’t possible be any clearer.

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I am no pub, dear.

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Dear? Yikes.

"I can’t express my appraisal of your motivations because your motivations are unclear."

I am in the middle of writing a description.

"Why are you asking this question and posting the link to your website. What is your website about."

To have a good debate on the subject, obviously.

To have good debates on a specific subject, obviously. What did you think my website is about?

"What are you getting out of this? I can’t possible be any clearer."

Pleasure of debating and increasing my knowledge of these subjects while creating a database of debates on specific issues that 'philosopher' consider important. I think one of the major problems is that people do not have the time to tackle philosophy and the texts are overwhelmingly dense and involved, even though the subject matter is important. Having debates on specific issues should alleviate this to a certain extent for those who are searching.

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I am no pub. (brain bads are always slightly embarrassing)

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What?

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I am in the middle of writing a description.

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Was that really so hard? I have only asked several times!

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To have a good debate on the subject, obviously.

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Far from obvious, obviously. Otherwise why would we keep asking you.

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To have good debates on a specific subject, obviously. What did you think my website is about?

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But they are other people’s debates from other places, so I was a tad confused, so I asked for clarification. The website is unclear.

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Pleasure of debating and increasing my knowledge of these subjects while creating a database of debates on specific issues that 'philosopher' consider important. I think one of the major problems is that people do not have the time to tackle philosophy and the texts are overwhelmingly dense and involved, even though the subject matter is important. Having debates on specific issues should alleviate this to a certain extent for those who are searching.

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Creating a database. Couldn’t you have just said so days ago? Couldn’t you just have made the effort to be sure your use of a link to here in this manner was cool with the staff? Why couldn’t you have been civil and polite about it!

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I am no pub! OBVIOUSLY.

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It’s not fucking obvious to me, that’s why I keep fucking asking!

Yes, from different perspectives.

It indeed seems to be unclear. Of course, I wonder why no one just said that. All this 'motivations' talk really had me bugged.

"Creating a database. Couldn’t you have just said so days ago? Couldn’t you just have made the effort to be sure your use of a link to here in this manner was cool with the staff? Why couldn’t you have been civil and polite about it!"

True, and you could have made it clearer by what you meant by 'motivations' and 'what are you after'. From my point of view those words are insinuation-phrases for selfishness.

"My observation on this thread is that blueskyboris's web site has 1 woman appearing on it to be discussed. As if there are NO other women thinkers than Naomi Wolfe, to have a discussion on."

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True, and you could have made it clearer by what you meant by 'motivations' and 'what are you after'. From my point of view those words are insinuation-phrases for selfishness.

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Ya, it's so my fault.

[ 12 January 2005: Message edited by: Scout ]