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Author Topic: Federal election in Newfoundland
nicky
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posted 03 September 2008 03:50 AM      Profile for nicky     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I see that O'Hearn has announced he won't be running again. I think Doyle is also retiring, leaving both St John's seats vacant. It sounds like it may be a Conservative rout in Newfoundland.

Can anyone share any intelligence on what is happening there? Is Jack Harris going to run? Will Danny williams campaign openly?

About a year ago I heard williams unleashing the most eloquent anti-Harper invective, I think over the Atlantic accord and how Harper can't be trusted. He said someting like, "It just goes to show the pettiness of the man."

I'd love to hear that soundbike re-used in the election campaign. For me, "pettiness" is le mot juste when it comes to summing up Harper.


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Island Red
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posted 03 September 2008 05:41 AM      Profile for Island Red     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The rumour mill is rife with speculation that Harris will in fact be running. I suspect he will wait for the writ to be dropped before announcing. If Harris runs, he will be the next MP for St. John's East. Not much has been heard about an NDP candidate in St. John's South-Mount Pearl, however. Good riddance to Hearn, but the equally risable Liberal candidate, Siohban Coady, is no better.
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adma
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posted 03 September 2008 04:54 PM      Profile for adma     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Though aside from the Jack Harris factor, SJS-MP ought to be the more "natural" NDP seat, so don't be surprised if they're batting for two.

And keep in mind that there's one Tory incumbent left running: Fabian Manning in Avalon...


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ottawaobserver
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posted 03 September 2008 08:53 PM      Profile for ottawaobserver     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by adma:
And keep in mind that there's one Tory incumbent left running: Fabian Manning in Avalon...

A seat we came within 2 votes per poll of winning in 1997, with virtually no organization, I might add. I know we were trying to come back from not having official party status then, which is why the resources probably went elsewhere, but it sure was a shame.

If you look at the number of strong seconds and near misses we've had in Nfld-Lab over the past number of years, and then think what could be done with proper resources, it really starts to put things in a new light!


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Malcolm
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posted 03 September 2008 09:55 PM      Profile for Malcolm   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mike Duffy was saying that Williams will be sending his workers out to support Harris and the NDP.
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skarredmunkey
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posted 04 September 2008 05:10 PM      Profile for skarredmunkey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ryan Cleary is considering running for the NDP in St. John's South Mount Pearl.

And Jack Harris will make his announcement next week.


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Ken Burch
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posted 04 September 2008 07:44 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Malcolm French, APR:
Mike Duffy was saying that Williams will be sending his workers out to support Harris and the NDP.

Does that mean that Williams and his provincial colleagues will now do a mass walkout from the PC's and become, by default, the first Newfoundland NDP government?

[ 04 September 2008: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]


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pebbles
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posted 04 September 2008 07:55 PM      Profile for pebbles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Ken Burch:

Does that mean that Williams and his provincial colleagues will now do a mass walkout from the PC's and become, by default, the first Newfoundland NDP government?

[ 04 September 2008: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]


Given Danny's profligate spending and his inflationary expansion of the provincial public service, he already is. (He doesn't have "colleagues", only sheep.)


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Malcolm
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posted 04 September 2008 09:24 PM      Profile for Malcolm   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by pebbles:

Given Danny's profligate spending and his inflationary expansion of the provincial public service, he already is. (He doesn't have "colleagues", only sheep.)


Nice try, pebbles, but CCF-NDP provincial governments actually have a very good record for financial stewardship.

The sole exception, some yutz called Rae, now belongs to your party.


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MUN Prof.
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posted 05 September 2008 07:56 AM      Profile for MUN Prof.     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ryan Cleary has announced that he's running for the NDP. The nomination meeting is set for next Wednesday. That makes two good pick up opportunities for the NDP in NL.

[ 05 September 2008: Message edited by: MUN Prof. ]


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Labonza
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posted 05 September 2008 05:19 PM      Profile for Labonza     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Danny Williams said on TV today in no uncertain terms what he thinks of the federal Tories. I hope his huge popularity with the voters there costs them some seats.This could be good!
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500_Apples
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posted 05 September 2008 05:20 PM      Profile for 500_Apples   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Malcolm French, APR:

Nice try, pebbles, but CCF-NDP provincial governments actually have a very good record for financial stewardship.

The sole exception, some yutz called Rae, now belongs to your party.


What about Glenn Clark?


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V. Jara
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posted 05 September 2008 07:09 PM      Profile for V. Jara     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by 500_Apples:

What about Glenn Clark?


The briefing books that the Liberal party received in 2001 showed that the provincial government was actually running a surplus at the time the BC NDP handed over power. Gordon Campbell then instituted massive tax cuts that put BC in structural deficit, and the largest nominal deficits in BC history, until the economy pulled out of recession and federal transfers increased under PM Paul Martin. This is not all to say that Glen Clark was some kind of economic top performer, but he was better than Gordon Campbell showed himself to be at the beginning of his first term.


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Malcolm
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posted 05 September 2008 08:58 PM      Profile for Malcolm   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
On economic management, only one CCF-NDP premier in Canadian history can justifiably be described as a failure.

That failure is now one of the two great hopes of the Liberal Party,

Indeed, if we expand the criteria, almost every CCF-NDP Premier in Canadian history had some successes.

The two exceptions - the two failures - would be Ujjal Dossanjh and Bob Rae.

What ever bcame of those two?


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Politics101
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posted 05 September 2008 11:42 PM      Profile for Politics101   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
How would you classified Mike Harcourt - didn't last a full term and never really balanced the budget although he tried with his budget management plan.
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Malcolm
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posted 07 September 2008 09:01 PM      Profile for Malcolm   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Inherited a defecit and began making incremental progress on it - before being felled by a scandal that had nothing to do with him at all.

Not a screaming success, certainly. But not a pathetic failure like either Bob Rae or Ujjal Dossanjh.


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beibhnn
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posted 08 September 2008 11:55 AM      Profile for beibhnn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Telegram reports that the Conservative candidate in St. John's East is Craig Westcott. Jack Harris is expected to announce later today.
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pebbles
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posted 08 September 2008 05:54 PM      Profile for pebbles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And Harris did.

NDP nomination in St. John's South is tomorrow. Tories also have a candidate there, Federation of Agriculture honcho Merv Wiseman.

The Tory and NDP slates still aren't full across the province though.


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candle
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posted 08 September 2008 06:42 PM      Profile for candle     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
For those of you in Newfoundland and Labrador, could you tell me if you believe if Cleary is really a social democrat or if he views the NDP as a vehicle to protest the treatment of the province by the Harper government

I'm just a little wary after the Angela Vautour experience in New Brunswick.


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skarredmunkey
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posted 08 September 2008 07:51 PM      Profile for skarredmunkey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Cleary running for the NDP is a BIG surprise. Although Newfoundland nationalists seem to gravitate towards the party lately. Peg Norman once suggested NL should secede from Canada.

I think Cleary could be an exciting addition to the NDP caucus if he can take on the Tories who are embedded in St. John's South, and Siobhan Coady who runs a semi-strong second there.

And while I don't see any chance of him pulling an Angela Vautour and jumping ship to join another party (the Liberals are anathema to the local separatist bunch, as are the Harper Conservatives), I think his agenda will likely come before that of the NDP leadership if the two conflict.


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beibhnn
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posted 09 September 2008 08:05 AM      Profile for beibhnn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
From an article in today's Chronicle Herald about William's ABC strategy: The provincial member for St. Johnís East, Conservative Ed Buckingham, was at Mr. Harrisís campaign announcement wearing a Jack Harris NDP button. "Jack is a great guy and would be a great MP," he said.
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MUN Prof.
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posted 09 September 2008 08:16 AM      Profile for MUN Prof.     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Also notable, and highly amusing, is the fact that the Conservative Party candidate in St. John's East called Stephen Harper a communist "control freak" who "hates the media" back in in August 2007. Listen here for yourself.
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A_J
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posted 09 September 2008 08:19 AM      Profile for A_J     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skarredmunkey:
I think Cleary could be an exciting addition to the NDP caucus if he can take on the Tories who are embedded in St. John's South, and Siobhan Coady who runs a semi-strong second there.

St. John's Teleram on Ryan Cleary and the NDP:

quote:
Now, politics makes strange bedfellows, but it's more than fascinating that former Independent editor Ryan Cleary spent time last week considering running for the New Democrats. After all, in his columns, he's never had much good to say about the party. "The New Democrats are losers - there, I said it - a mainstream party that wouldn't win an election if Jackie Layton was given a 100-seat head start.... I'd have more respect for the NDP if they actually set out to win an election - instead of settling for spoiler." Furthermore, "the NDP (are) content to cater to the small pocket of aging granolas and artsy fartsies in Town" and "are desperate in the dream department." It's a regular theme: "The New Democrats are no more a provincial party than Water Street in downtown St. John's is a provincial highway. Lorraine Michael is no more a potential premier than John Hickey is a potential finance minister." "Despite the backing of most of the major unions, the New Democrats - outside the aging granolas in east end St. John's and the union crowd in Labrador City - are a lame political duck.... Peg Norman is one of the few names bandied about as potential leadership material. If she had any sense she'd join the Liberals - at least then, if successful, she'd have 11 other losers to hang out with." Yep. A political match made in heaven. Or else he hopes party members have short memories.

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skarredmunkey
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posted 10 September 2008 07:54 AM      Profile for skarredmunkey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You can skim any of the old copies of The Independent to read his vitriolic editorials and find less than flattering analyses of the Liberals and Tories, federally and provincially, as well. (This used to be their site - the paper has since gone out of business). Craig Westcott is having to answer the same questions as Cleary.

Apparently journalists shouldn't take part in party politics unless they are completely obedient.


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skarredmunkey
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posted 22 September 2008 04:47 PM      Profile for skarredmunkey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Bump. (Conservative candidate Craig Westcott admitted in this CPAC profile of St. John's East - 6:50 minutes into the video - that he and Liberal candidate Walter Noel will be in a race to see who comes last. This is a shoe-in for Jack Harris!)
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janfromthebruce
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posted 22 September 2008 06:38 PM      Profile for janfromthebruce     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skarredmunkey:
Bump. (Conservative candidate Craig Westcott admitted in this CPAC profile of St. John's East - 6:50 minutes into the video - that he and Liberal candidate Walter Noel will be in a race to see who comes last. This is a shoe-in for Jack Harris!)

This is super news. Thanks for the update.


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Island Red
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posted 30 September 2008 01:29 PM      Profile for Island Red     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A poll of St. John's East is expected to be released tomorrow by CTV affiliate, NTV, which will demonstrate what everybody in the riding already knows: Jack Harris is way ahead of the competition. The NDP wave will start in Newfoundland and crest on Vancouver Island.
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Stockholm
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posted 30 September 2008 03:52 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I noticed this poll result in the riding of Avalon reported today:

This is actually a pretty good result for the NDP in a riding that is rural and where there have usually only been paper candidates. If the NDP can get 22% of the decided vote in a dead zone like Avalon - it bodes well for both St. John's ridings.

quote:
A new poll shows Conservative Fabian Manning holding on to a slim lead in Avalon. Telelink polled 546 likey voters in the district during the weekend. About a quarter, 25.1%, said they would vote for Manning, while 21.6% said they would vote for Liberal Scott Andrews. Thatís just a 3.5 percentage point lead, within the margin of error of +/-4.3 percentage points 19 times out of 20. NDP candidate Randy Dawe is in third with 12.6% support; 39.9% of respondents said they were still undecided.

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bagkitty
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posted 30 September 2008 04:40 PM      Profile for bagkitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am glad to see the NDP doing so well in Nfld & Lab. Really I am, but I hope the residents of Nfld & Lab do understand that there will be a fee charged by Alberta for accepting all the Tories you sent us thereby clearing the way for the forces of light and reason to be doing so well back on the Rock and its colony to the north. Because they are so much fun to party with, we have decided not to charge for the damages they have caused, just the basic fee for accepting them. Again, way to go Nfld & Lab. Love you guys.
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skarredmunkey
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posted 30 September 2008 06:32 PM      Profile for skarredmunkey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Avalon is an odd riding. When it used to be Bonavista-Trinity-Conception (parts of CBS, CBN, and the Bay de Verde and Bonavista Peninsulas, basically) it was safe-Liberal. Yet when the NDP made its breakthrough in Atlantic Canada in 1997, twinned with a popular candidate in Fraser March, the party came within 600 votes of beating the Liberals. At the time, the current NDP candidate in the Avalon, Randy Dawe, ran a distant third as a PC.

In 2003 the riding was dissolved. The Liberal-voting Bonavista/Clarenville portion was ceded to the Central NFLD riding (Bonavista-Exploits), and the southern Avalon portion of the old slightly misnamed "St. John's West" was added. This is a sparsely populated but huge chunk of territory where people have been voting Tory since before Confederation, making the riding a bit more of a toss-up.

Randy Dawe is a political chameleon and a perennial candidate. He has been a candidate or member of at least four political parties in the past eleven years (including, yes, the Canadian Alliance). If he could take in 20% of the vote it would not be surprising, but it would not be something to build on unless the riding had a big-name candidate. (There are not, of course, many NDP-leaning stars in the province, but this is the riding that has given the world Brian Tobin and John Efford).


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Stockholm
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posted 30 September 2008 06:40 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually Brian Tobin was from Corner Brooke on the west coast of Newfoundland
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MUN Prof.
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posted 30 September 2008 06:51 PM      Profile for MUN Prof.     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Actually Brian Tobin was from Corner Brooke . . .
Stephenville actually. While he won on the West coast twice, he won BTC in 2000.

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skarredmunkey
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posted 30 September 2008 07:24 PM      Profile for skarredmunkey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes. I suppose I should've rephrased that. They didn't give the world Brian Tobin. They reintroduced Brian Tobin to the world. Please don't hold that against them.
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MUN Prof.
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posted 01 October 2008 04:18 PM      Profile for MUN Prof.     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
St. John's South-Mount Pearl poll:
quote:
Liberal candidate Siobhan Coady has a comfortable lead in St. John's South-Mount Pearl, but the race isn't over yet. Telelink Call Centre polled 550 likely voters in the riding during the weekend: 29.1% said they would vote for Coady, 19.5% said they would vote for NDP candidate Ryan Cleary, 11.6% support Conservative Merv Wiseman, 1.3% plan to vote for other parties, while 38.5% remain undecided. The margin of error is +/-4.3 percentage points 19 times out of 20.
Tomorrow, St. John's East.

[ 01 October 2008: Message edited by: MUN Prof. ]


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skarredmunkey
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posted 01 October 2008 10:38 PM      Profile for skarredmunkey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Tories are in third place in St. John's?

So, there is a god.


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ghoris
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posted 01 October 2008 11:22 PM      Profile for ghoris     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That undecided number seems extremely high for this late in the campaign.
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Stockholm
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posted 02 October 2008 01:38 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
HOLY MOLY!!!

This could become the safest NDP seat in Canada!!

quote:
The NTV/Telelink poll shows NDP candidate Jack Harris has opened up a big lead in St. John's East. Telelink polled 526 likely voters during the weekend. A majority of respondents, 52.3%, said they plan to vote for Jack Harris on election day. Liberal candidate Walter Noel is a distant second with 8.7%. In a statistical tie for second is Conservative candidate Craig Westcott, who has 8.2%. Undecided are 30.4% of respondents, the lowest undecided rate of the three Avalon peninsula ridings.

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Threads
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posted 02 October 2008 06:14 PM      Profile for Threads     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If 1) this poll is right and 2) the undecided voters who do vote are distributed similarly to the decided voters (not likely, given the 30% undecided share), Jack Harris would take a share of the vote that's typically only seen in federal elections in ridings like Crowfoot, Mount Royal and Wild Rose.
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adma
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posted 02 October 2008 06:18 PM      Profile for adma     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Or, in 1993, any non-St. John's Newfoundland riding.
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ghoris
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posted 04 October 2008 11:21 AM      Profile for ghoris     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
For what it's worth, the Election Prediction Project is now projecting St. John's East in the NDP column.

They've given St. John's South-Mt. Pearl to the Liberals. Avalon is the only tossup.


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MUN Prof.
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posted 04 October 2008 02:43 PM      Profile for MUN Prof.     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
St. John's South-Mt. Pearl is TCTC.
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V. Jara
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posted 04 October 2008 03:05 PM      Profile for V. Jara     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Jack Harris would be a major asset in the NDP caucus. Maybe he would replace Libby Davies as House Leader and she could be moved to a high profile vacant portfolio like Health (a portfolio well suited to her riding, as it is home to InSite).

ETA: On second hand, its nice to have a woman in such a high profile role in the NDP cabinet, especially given that Mulcair is Deputy Leader and covers Finance. Perhaps there could be a second Deputy Leader (Libby) in charge of an additional portfolio and Jack Harris could be put as House Leader. Or maybe there could be two Deputy House Leaders (Davies and Harris) both with minor portfolios.

[ 04 October 2008: Message edited by: V. Jara ]


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remind
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posted 04 October 2008 03:09 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Edited as Vjara changed post after/while I was saying I disagreed.

ETA: to say; the men in the NDP had better smarten the hell up and realize who is the major portion of the supporting voters for the party!

The day that I might consider it okay for a newly minted male MP to again get a top caucus position, shifting, a long sitting vibrant female, out and into a nothing position, is the day I start voting GP.

[ 04 October 2008: Message edited by: remind ]


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
skarredmunkey
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posted 04 October 2008 03:25 PM      Profile for skarredmunkey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by MUN Prof.:
St. John's South-Mt. Pearl is TCTC.
Cleary is doing better than expected, but get ready for a Coady win.

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Will Hiscock
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posted 04 October 2008 04:25 PM      Profile for Will Hiscock     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Coady could take it, but With the right effort and a strong turnout, this is a possible NDP seat. Jack's campaign is safe enough that it could provide Cleary with a boost. He may even have coat tails as well as workers to help out.

I was going to work e-day on Jack's campaign, but I think I'll be spending the day in SJS/MP unless the numbers change.


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Malcolm
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posted 04 October 2008 09:13 PM      Profile for Malcolm   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Does Harris have coat tails?
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V. Jara
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posted 04 October 2008 10:18 PM      Profile for V. Jara     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
Edited as Vjara changed post after/while I was saying I disagreed.

ETA: to say; the men in the NDP had better smarten the hell up and realize who is the major portion of the supporting voters for the party!

The day that I might consider it okay for a newly minted male MP to again get a top caucus position, shifting, a long sitting vibrant female, out and into a nothing position, is the day I start voting GP.

[ 04 October 2008: Message edited by: remind ]


Yeah, well frankly the NDP hasn't done a good enough job of helping its female MPs achieve the same prominence as people like Jack Harris. Which is why it is even tempting to put him in a position of relative power within the caucus. I wonder what would be the result if someone kept stats on how often the NDP sends a male MP to represent them on talk shows, etc vs. a female MP. I'm going to miss Alexa McDonough, she was great. Thank goodness the NDP has no shortage of female talent among its MPs.


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Stockholm
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posted 04 October 2008 11:04 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
She isn't an MP, but it seems to me that more often than not the NDP rep on talk shows is party president Anne McGrath.
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bekayne
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posted 05 October 2008 08:55 AM      Profile for bekayne        Edit/Delete Post
Tories Fear Provincial Shut-out

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081005.wantiABC1005/BNStory/politics/home


From: Kelowna, BC | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Mojoroad1
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posted 05 October 2008 09:01 AM      Profile for Mojoroad1     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
She isn't an MP, but it seems to me that more often than not the NDP rep on talk shows is party president Anne McGrath.

Seems to be Her or Peggy Nash in most of the stuff I see.


From: Muskoka | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged
skarredmunkey
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posted 16 October 2008 04:40 AM      Profile for skarredmunkey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Okay, I can't find any thread that's discussing this.

Ryan Cleary came within 1047 votes (or 3%) of beating Liberal Siobhan Coady. He got 40.5% of the vote in St. John's South--Mount Pearl.

The NDP vote in the province as a whole increased from 14% in 2006 to 34% (the Tories dropped from 43% to 17%, and the Liberals increased from 43% to only 47%).

The NDP placed 3rd only in Bonavista-Gander-Grand Falls-Windsor, and Avalon.

They placed second everywhere else, and of course...

Jack Harris won with 75% of the vote in St. John's East!

Voter turnout was low, and much of this can be attributed to the ABC campaign. But yesterday was still a really, REALLY good day for the NDP in Newfoundland and Labrador.

[ 16 October 2008: Message edited by: skarredmunkey ]


From: Vancouver Centre | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
KenS
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posted 16 October 2008 05:26 AM      Profile for KenS     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
As well as just missing that seat- it really is a shame such a high vote share produced only one seat.

The trick will be translating that vote share into something concrete- with the added twist that some of it has to be flash in the pan. Still, there is a great deal to build on.

And NF may in one shot have taken from NS being the highest provincial vote share for the federal NDP. Don't have the numbers.


From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Policywonk
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posted 16 October 2008 11:48 AM      Profile for Policywonk     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And NF may in one shot have taken from NS being the highest provincial vote share for the federal NDP. Don't have the numbers.

Provincial, but not provincial or territorial vote share. However the Yukon is a real downer compared to the NWT (Bevington re-elected) and Nunavut (a very strong third).

All the numbers are here, although not quite official yet.

Results of 2008 Federal Election


From: Edmonton | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
V. Jara
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posted 16 October 2008 01:30 PM      Profile for V. Jara     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Coady had a big head start on Cleary in terms of the campaigning. I wonder if Newfoundlanders think she can keep the job next time around? It would be great if Cleary would take his ambitions to the provincial stage, although I wonder how that would work out given that he probably had the support of many local PCs. Surely a candidate who's journalistic motto was Newfoundland first, second, and third could have a place in the Danny Williams assembly as a strong voice in the loyal opposition. As for the NDP jumping from 14 to 34% of the vote- realise that most of that jump occured in just Jack Harris' riding!
From: - | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged

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