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Author Topic: And how are you getting there
Rundler
editor
Babbler # 2699

posted 19 November 2002 10:52 AM      Profile for Rundler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The Path Not Taken, Yet

http://www.rabble.ca/everyones_a_critic.shtml?x=17064&url=

If two countries’ rail policies travelled in opposite directions at very different speeds, how long would it take me to get from Ottawa to Toronto?

Why aren't more of us demanding better rail service? Do we really love to fly that much? It doesn't show.


From: the murky world of books books books | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
paxamillion
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posted 19 November 2002 11:22 AM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Catch 22 -- The service is poor because not enough people use it to merit better service; people don't use it because the service is poor.

My choice is to vote with my feet.

I used to ride the train from Toronto to Sarnia instead of flying. It was cheaper, and not much slower (when considering waiting in the terminal, etc.). It was also more reliable in winter.

When it comes to local travel, I choose not to own a car and use transit instead.


From: the process of recovery | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
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posted 19 November 2002 12:37 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
With Halifax to Toronto airfares at about 80 bucks each way, the train would have to try pretty hard to lure me away. It's also just not practical for my weekend meetings. I'd love to be able to take a train all over Nova Scotia, though. Love. To.
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
danneau
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posted 19 November 2002 01:05 PM      Profile for danneau   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Would that we in the West had even the level of support for rail travel that to Windsor-TO-Montreal corridor gets. I may be wrong about this, but some of the flitting we do just can't continue to be done. Rail is, if I'm not mistaken, much more eficient in terms of energy. Aside from the pressures of business, perhaps we shouldn't flit so fast. Flit less, more slowly, stay longer...and don't so so much business.
From: Port Alberni | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Rundler
editor
Babbler # 2699

posted 19 November 2002 02:56 PM      Profile for Rundler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I love the idea of flitting less and doing less business. That's part of the reason I prefer trains to planes -- all that contemplative, lookin' out the window time is such a good, and rare, thing. Somehow the stress of air travel and cramped conditions just don't foster deep thought in the same way. How's that for a rail-promotion angle -- your track to deeper thought ...
From: the murky world of books books books | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Lima Bean
rabble-rouser
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posted 19 November 2002 03:19 PM      Profile for Lima Bean   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I started a thread on this article in activism, naving not noticed this one. Over there I was saying how lovely it would be to be able to travel by rail and have it be realistic, reliable, quick and cheap.

I did a fair bit of traveling in the UK a couple of years ago and just marvelled at the ease and freedom with which I could get around the country on the trains. I could just go to a train station and look at the schedule, buy my ticket (for not too many pounds, usually) and get on a train within a couple of hours, only to arrive at my destination shortly after that!

Compare that to traveling in Canada, where I never leave the city I live in unless it's on a plane (very expensive--$600 to fly home to Edmonton) or by car (inefficient and relatively unsafe, especially if I'm going somewhere by myself).

I wanna ride on the trains!!!


From: s | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cougyr
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posted 19 November 2002 08:08 PM      Profile for Cougyr     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A little history: It used to be that the mail moved by rail. For the first half of the 20th century, passengers actually rode on the end of mail trains. We were all deluded into thinking it was the other way around, but the real money was in the mail contracts. And those contracts required speed. Thus the mail/passenger got priority scheduling.

During that phase, mail was sorted on the trains. Then some genius figured out that planes were faster than trains; never mind that airports were out in the sticks. So, the trains lost the mail contracts. The result was a disaster for the passenger train and a whopping problem for the post office because all that mail wound up in the central post offices un-sorted!


From: over the mountain | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 19 November 2002 08:19 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
A little history: It used to be that the mail moved by rail. For the first half of the 20th century, passengers actually rode on the end of mail trains. We were all deluded into thinking it was the other way around, but the real money was in the mail contracts. And those contracts required speed. Thus the mail/passenger got priority scheduling.

Exactly so. Passenger rail service was a money-loser for a long time in Canada before it was taken over by the feds, in the form of VIA Rail. My dad recounts talking to railway officials around 1959 or 1960 who wanted, even then, to get out of passenger rail. They didn't get their chance for nearly another 20 years.

Even so...

quote:
Would that we in the West had even the level of support for rail travel that to Windsor-TO-Montreal corridor gets.

There's been some talk of putting in a high-speed rail link between Calgary and Edmonton. There aren't likely too many other routes in the west which would have that level of traffic.

But to hell with the pure economics. Roads get lots of government support. Railways should too.

quote:
I'd love to be able to take a train all over Nova Scotia, though. Love. To.

I took the train through New Brunswick and Nova Scotia (well, from Toronto to North Sydney) when VIA still ran a little dayliner train from Truro through Cape Breton. Wonderful experience.


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 19 November 2002 08:20 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Are you serious, Audra, is a flight from Toronto to Halifax really that cheap? I had no idea. Or is it only if the destination is Toronto?
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 19 November 2002 08:23 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
With Halifax to Toronto airfares at about 80 bucks each way

You're kidding me. Where are you getting these? My roommate is heading to Toronto on Sunday for $160 (one way) and I thought that was a steal.


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Rebecca West
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posted 19 November 2002 09:09 PM      Profile for Rebecca West     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I hate flying and I love the train. Recently while purchasing a train ticket, I chatted with the Via clerk who told me that CP's ownership of the tracks that Via uses would only effectively prevent high speed rail travel and priority for passenger trains for another ten years. She didn't have time to say why. Anyone else heard anything about CP losing their rail monopoly?
From: London , Ontario - homogeneous maximus | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
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posted 19 November 2002 10:40 PM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I haven't read the rabble article yet, saving it for work.

But, I have the overwhelming suspicion that we don't have high speed rail in population corridors because the air lines lobby against it.-- Just as the railways lobbied against a trans Canada highway project back in the 1930's.

When you consider pre-boarding times, travel to and from far flung airports, high speed rail all of a sudden looks more attractive in terms of time-- and the air line (is there a plural here?) knows this.

A flight from Toronto to London might only be 45 mintues, but that doesn't really reflect the actual time invested by a passenger going from downtown Toronto to downtown London. I bet "VIA" is actually faster.

When it's on time.


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
TommyPaineatWork
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posted 20 November 2002 01:25 AM      Profile for TommyPaineatWork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The Paul Wienburg article was interesting:

The Path Not Taken Yet

The health concerns regarding air ports is something I hadn't considered before, and is another good argument in favour of a better rail system.

I find Wienburg's comparasson of Paris/Lyon and Toronto/Ottawa a bit dubious. I won't argue his point about the populations being the same, technically-- but I wonder if Paris and Lyon are actually greater population centers on the whole?

Europe, it seems to me, has a rail advantage because there is more population gathered in a smaller space, on the whole?

Anyway, although I'm in favour of a high speed rail line at least in the Windsor/Quebec/Ottawa corridors, there are things not often considered.

A system like that has to have a dedicated track. And, we have to realize it can't be done in the traditional Canadian way, with level crossings etc.

And where do we find land for such a dedicated track? Already in the Windsor/Quebec/Ottawa corridors there's a problem with farm land dissapearing. In the world's second largest nation, you might think such concerns trivial, but when you realize how little of our land mass is as versatile, agriculturally as it is in S/W Ontario, the concern is real and has to be addressed.

The best alternative would be to expropriate an existing right of way from either CP or CN, or portions from both.

At one time CN and CP discussed merging. That might have made such expropriation a lot easier, but then we have to grapple with the evil of a corporate monopoly on rail frieght.

The key to these considerations is to do a full accounting.

The conservatives like to narrow down the ledger significantly when it comes to projects like this.

However, I'm confident that if we do a proper accounting, putting the cost of such a project up against the full costs of NOT doing such a project, the idea would satisfy the fiscal conservatives.

Wienburg points out other cost savings not many would have considered before.


From: London | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cougyr
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posted 20 November 2002 01:58 AM      Profile for Cougyr     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Certainly by the 1890's, railways understood that they could make more money hauling pigs than people. Think about it. People take up too much room and require comforts.

I think the only public transport in the world that makes a profit is in Hong Kong. All public transport has to be subsidized in some fashion. After the mail contracts came to an end, the railroads could no longer afford to carry passengers and have done everything they could to actively discourage them.

Every government subsidizes transportation. In Canada, the big subsidies go into road and air travel. As those are beginning to look too expensive, rail is beginning to look better.


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lagatta
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posted 20 November 2002 02:01 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Guardian columnist George Monbiot has a web site with many articles on this subject. http://www.monbiot.org/

Road building and the development of suburban sprawl were heavily subsidised. Passenger rail is a public service and as such, definitely calls for subsidies. It would be great to be able to rely on an indirect subsidy from the postal system...

Now with the three-hour security checks, even on regional flights, a lot of journeys, even fairly long ones (by Central Canadian standards) like Montreal-Toronto, would be faster by a fast train, from city centre to city centre. Amsterdam - Paris: 4 hours, almost always on time. Stops in Brussels, about half-way. And unlike the bus, you can read on the train.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cougyr
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posted 20 November 2002 02:08 AM      Profile for Cougyr     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
One of the dumbest decisions ever made was the switch from electric interurban trains to buses. B.C. Electric had two lines from downtown Vancouver to New Westminster, a line out to Chilliwack, a line through Richmond all the way to Steveston, and a line from Victoria out Interurban Avenue in the direction of the present ferry terminal.

Much of the old track is still in place in the Fraser Valley and is used by the B.C.Southren RR. The first leg of the Sky Train follows the old Central Park line. There is talk now of running light rail out Arbutus, again in the old right of way. They are rebuilding much of what was removed in the fifties.


From: over the mountain | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
TommyPaineatWork
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posted 20 November 2002 02:30 AM      Profile for TommyPaineatWork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
One inadvertant advantage to Canada's foot dragging in this area is that by the time a decision is made to update this technology, we'll probably be in a position to leap frog into the next generation, maglev, which has just recently gone from the theoretical to the practicle, with lines in operation in Hong Kong and Japan.

Want to see a maglev train?

Want to see it again?

They're fast.


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'lance
rabble-rouser
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posted 20 November 2002 01:49 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I hate flying and I love the train. Recently while purchasing a train ticket, I chatted with the Via clerk who told me that CP's ownership of the tracks that Via uses would only effectively prevent high speed rail travel and priority for passenger trains for another ten years. She didn't have time to say why. Anyone else heard anything about CP losing their rail monopoly?

I don't know about this -- however I do know that between Vancouver and Toronto, the VIA train takes mostly the CN routes.

This means that the train -- which has been upgraded and is pretty comfortable, or was as of 1993 -- goes through

  • Jasper, not Field/Lake Louise -- you see Mt. Robson, which is spectacular, but not the Spiral Tunnels;
  • Edmonton, not Calgary -- the inside of the Edmonton train station resembling a none-too-clean pulic washroom
  • Saskatoon, rather than Regina -- since it's 3 a.m. or so, this doesn't make much difference;
  • hundreds of miles of featureless Northern Ontario scrub, rather than the north shore of Lake Superior; and
  • the Sudbury tailings piles, about which the less said, the better.

From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
shelby9
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posted 20 November 2002 02:54 PM      Profile for shelby9     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
My departed grandfather was a Station Agent for CN for almost his entire life. He loved the rails, and I'll admit, riding the rails with him was always an adventure. I got to be in the engine, the dining car, the sleeper cars, the caboose (when we sill had them - sniff) and even the baggage cars. It was great fun as a kid and memories I cherish.

We used to be able to ride for a much reduced cost as we had family in the biz. I've seen much of the West by rail, and it was a fabulous experience. I met tourists once while in Ottawa who were from Britain who'd chosen to see all of Canada by rail. While they thought the costs were ridiculous, they said they had a better understanding of our country and the pictures to prove it - all without having to attempt driving over here.

I wish I could get home by rail... but there is no longer a train station in my hometown. It's a museum now. In fact there is no train tracks in my hometown anymore. There is a side track that grain cars back into for the elevator, but that's it. In lieu of the train, I am driving home for Christmas (in the most fuel efficient car I could rent) from Edmonton to Neepawa, Manitoba. Flying as it turned out, was more expensive than driving. But, the romantic notion of families gathering on the platforms to receive thier loved ones home, or collect precious cargo from afar is something I would love to see revived. Having seen it once in my lifetime is not nearly enough.


From: Edmonton, AB | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Timebandit
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posted 20 November 2002 04:40 PM      Profile for Timebandit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Via Rail stopped coming through Regina some time ago. The station is now a casino. I'd take the train if I had access...
From: Urban prairie. | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
BleedingHeart
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posted 26 November 2002 06:35 PM      Profile for BleedingHeart   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
We took VIA from Edmonton to Vancouver last Spring Break and it was an excellent trip although it cost about twice what it would cost to fly.

Unfortunately because of timing, the train goes thru the mountains during the night and the Prairies during the day.

Also don't let them tell you that two people can share a berth unless they're really in love and don't plan on sleeping.


From: Kickin' and a gougin' in the mud and the blood and the beer | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged

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