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Author Topic: Gas Boycott
Kaitlin Stocks
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posted 27 August 2005 03:01 PM      Profile for Kaitlin Stocks   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I figured this would be the best place to post this...

I got an email not too long ago (today as a matter of fact) saying that September 1st is supposed to be a gas boycott day for Canada and the US. It said that the oil and gas companies would lose a tonne of money if this happened... I shall paste the email here:

Subject: PROTEST GAS PRICES


IT HAS BEEN CALCULATED THAT IF NO ONE IN THE UNITED STATES AND CANADA
PURCHASED A DROP OF GASOLINE FOR ONE DAY AND ALL AT THE SAME TIME, THE OIL
COMPANIES WOULD CHOKE ON THEIR STOCKPILES.

AT THE SAME TIME, IT WOULD HIT THE ENTIRE INDUSTRY WITH A NET LOSS OF OVER
4.6 BILLION DOLLARS WHICH AFFECTS THE BOTTOM LINES OF THE OIL COMPANIES.

THEREFORE SEPTEMBER 1st HAS BEEN FORMALLY DECLARED "STICK IT
BEHIND" DAY AND THE PEOPLE OF THESE TWO NATIONS SHOULD NOT BUY A SINGLE
DROP OF GASOLINE THAT DAY.

THE ONLY WAY THIS CAN BE DONE IS IF YOU FORWARD THIS E-MAIL TO AS MANY
PEOPLE AS YOU CAN AND AS QUICKLY AS YOU CAN TO GET THE WORD OUT.

WAITING ON THE GOVERNMENT TO STEP IN AND CONTROL THE PRICES IS NOT GOING TO
HAPPEN. WHAT HAPPENED TO THE REDUCTION AND CONTROL IN PRICES THAT THE ARAB
NATIONS PROMISED TWO WEEKS AGO?

REMEMBER ONE THING, NOT ONLY IS THE PRICE OF GASOLINE GOING UP BUT AT THE
SAME TIME AIRLINES ARE FORCED TO RAISE THEIR PRICES, TRUCKING COMPANIES ARE
FORCED TO RAISE THEIR PRICES, ALL AFFECTING PRICES ON EVERYTHING THAT IS
SHIPPED (THINGS LIKE FOOD, CLOTHING, BUILDING MATERIALS, MEDICAL SUPPLIES
ETC.). WHO PAYS IN THE END? WE DO!

WE CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE. IF THEY DO NOT GET THE MESSAGE AFTER ONE DAY, WE
WILL DO IT AGAIN AND AGAIN.



SO DO YOUR PART AND SPREAD THE WORD. FORWARD THIS EMAIL TO EVERYONE YOU
KNOW. MARK YOUR CALENDARS AND MAKE SEPTEMBER 1ST A DAY THAT THE CITIZENS
OF THE UNITED STATES AND CANADA SAY "ENOUGH IS ENOUGH"

Now, I know that Mr Martin just gave a bunch of money towards this gas crisis thing, but it won't reflect in the pockets of users.

And I also know what a lot of you are saying: Just don't drive. Its simple enough, and I know its true. But it is extremely difficult when you live in a city where the transit sucks (ie, Regina and Saskatoon) and you run on an odd schedule. And carrying groceries to a bus stop and home (not to mention the ride) is no picnic (no pun intended). I don't drive an SUV, I fill my tank once every three or more weeks, and I don't "cruise the strip". I'm just sickend when the dollar amount of my fill is more than the litreage (is that a word??)

But anyways, Has anyone else received this email? Does anyone agree with its message?


From: The City That Rhymes With Fun... | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
robbie_dee
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posted 27 August 2005 03:08 PM      Profile for robbie_dee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/petition/gasout.htm

quote:
Claim: Boycotting a couple of gasoline brands will bring overall gas prices down.

Status: False.


[ 27 August 2005: Message edited by: robbie_dee ]


From: Iron City | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
robbie_dee
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posted 27 August 2005 03:11 PM      Profile for robbie_dee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
While a gas boycott may not accomplish much, you might consider the following gas "buycott" - supporting Venezuela and shopping at Citgo:

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0516-25.htm


From: Iron City | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Aristotleded24
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posted 27 August 2005 03:35 PM      Profile for Aristotleded24   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Kaitlin Stocks:
But anyways, Has anyone else received this email? Does anyone agree with its message?

Even if everyone did this protest, they would purchase gas either before or after that day, and there would be no net effect. September 1st is only one day, and the oil companies aren't going to notice anything.


From: Winnipeg | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 27 August 2005 04:35 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A real boycott of the oil companies begins at the bus stop.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Kaitlin Stocks
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posted 27 August 2005 05:01 PM      Profile for Kaitlin Stocks   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Last time I checked, busses use gas too.

And last time I looked into a Regina City bus (even tho the no fare job action is on now) it was empty. And I'm sure that beast uses more gas than my car.


From: The City That Rhymes With Fun... | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Maritimesea
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posted 27 August 2005 05:18 PM      Profile for Maritimesea     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That's true Kaitlen, but a bus can(potentially)carry forty or fifty people, so although the bus requires more fuel than your car for its' larger engine, what do you think would consume more fuel, fifty cars carrying one person each or a single bus carrying fifty people. Some of the buses in the Halifax area have been using used deep fryer oil as a fuel in recent years. The only problem is that riding on one causes some people to experience inexplicable and sudden urges to consume french fries.
From: Nova Scotia | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
slimpikins
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posted 27 August 2005 06:35 PM      Profile for slimpikins     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I make it a rule to never boycott anything unless the workers who produce the product call for the boycott themselves, as it is their livelihoods that will be affected. I do have an alternative to the boycott, however, and I do this all the time. Sometimes it works, and sometimes I end up in an argument with some redneck hillbilly.

When you see some yahoo with a huge SUV and no reason for it, like some tie wearing corporate office flunky, just walk up to them and point out that by driving such a thing, they are helping the 'terrorists', because the profits on the excess gas that they buy to run the SUV end up in the 'Arabs' pockets, or even worse that 'communist' Chavez. More money for them means more cash for those pesky insurgents.

Now, there are a lot of holes in that logic, but I don't think it is outright lying, and there's nothing worse for most of the corporate types in Alberta than to think that they are, in some part, helping the 'terrorists'. (Watch out for oil company execs, however). I heard about this approach from some guy who was going around sticking 'My SUV supports terrorists' bumper stickers on SUVs in downtown Calgary a few months ago.


From: Alberta | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cougyr
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posted 27 August 2005 07:34 PM      Profile for Cougyr     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by slimpikins:
I make it a rule to never boycott anything unless the workers who produce the product call for the boycott themselves, as it is their livelihoods that will be affected.

I avoid American made products, particularly the big ones. Do I want to hurt American workers? No. However, American policy, such as softwood lumber, has very definitely hurt Canadian workers. I try to spend my money so as to support Canadians first.

While I'm at it, why are supermarkets full of US grown food? I can understand oranges, but potatoes, onions, carrots? We can grow them here. What are we importing them for. I live in farming country and Safeway is bring in food from California instead of buying home grown. Why? The trucking costs alone have to be extortionate.

[ 27 August 2005: Message edited by: Cougyr ]


From: over the mountain | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 27 August 2005 07:43 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Kaitlin Stocks:
Last time I checked, busses use gas too.

And last time I looked into a Regina City bus (even tho the no fare job action is on now) it was empty. And I'm sure that beast uses more gas than my car.


I'm going to assume you are very yound and leave this alone.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
BleedingHeart
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posted 27 August 2005 07:58 PM      Profile for BleedingHeart   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Last time I checked, busses use gas too.

Just returned from Sydney Aust where all the buses and most of the taxis run on natural gas.


From: Kickin' and a gougin' in the mud and the blood and the beer | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 27 August 2005 11:10 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Kaitlin Stocks:
Last time I checked, busses use gas too.

And last time I looked into a Regina City bus (even tho the no fare job action is on now) it was empty. And I'm sure that beast uses more gas than my car.


You're joking, right? If not, then consider that the bus travels that route whether you're on the bus or not. So you have a choice between either taking the bus that's already travelling that route, and then only having one vehicle (the bus) use the gas for that trip, or to take your car and put one more vehicle on the road (your car as well as the bus which is already making that scheduled trip).

If everyone who looked at that "empty bus" going the same route as they are in their cars actually took that empty bus instead of using lame arguments to justify destroying the environment with their car, then that bus would be full, and lots of cars taken off the road for commuting purposes.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
scooter
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posted 31 August 2005 02:18 PM      Profile for scooter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Boycott plastic, if you think we use huge amounts of gas to run a car you should see what it takes to make plastic.
From: High River | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Joe_Canadian
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posted 01 September 2005 04:45 PM      Profile for Joe_Canadian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The email I received about GAS Boycott suggested that we boycott buying gas at only ONE of the major suppliers(chosen randomly to be - PETRO-CANADA) for a period of two weeks, starting on September 01).

As a former Gas retailer, I can tell you that this will work, because it has been done in the past, and it worked then.

The gas companies don't care if you don't buy gas today, because they know you'll just buy it tomorrow. They don't even care if you buy from someone else today, because they know that someone else will buy from them today.

On the other hand, if you boycott only one retailer at a time, their shareholders will not sit on the sidelines for 14 days, not selling their product, while the other guy sells his.

My email said that someone made a dice with the retailers name on it, and flipped it, and the name Petro-Canada came up first. Apparently the names on the dice were all the major retailers in Ontario, including Shell, Petro-Canada, ESSO, Sunoco, and others.

I am wondering why we don't give this a try, it can't hurt, and if it works, then we'll all win.

I'm also wondering why we don't convert to Ethanol now. It's $1.08 a GALLON, has almost no pollution, no sulphur, is renewable, and it would spend in Canada the $40B we are now sending to those Arab States that foster terrorism. They are probably using our own money to finance the terrorists! How stupid can we get???

http://www.ontla.on.ca/documents/Bills/37_Parliament/Session3/b163_e.htm


From: Ottawa | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Joe_Canadian
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posted 01 September 2005 04:53 PM      Profile for Joe_Canadian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
An empty bus gets 3 miles to a gallon of diesel, and you can't drive an empty car, but even when a car has only one occupant, it still gets about 20 miles per gallon. To do the math, that means that a bus has to have at least 6.6 paying passengers to make it equal to a car with just the driver in it. If you car-pool, then the car becomes even more efficient.

I too have seen so many empty buses. And have any of you ever heard of user pay. None of the city bus companies anywhere in all of Canada can run without 66% of the costs paid thru taxes. This means that even the users of the bus aren't paying the cost to run them.

[ 01 September 2005: Message edited by: Joe_Canadian ]


From: Ottawa | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
obscurantist
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posted 01 September 2005 05:13 PM      Profile for obscurantist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'd love it if I could find some of these empty buses y'all are talking about. To paraphrase Yogi Berra, the reason no one rides the bus is because it's too crowded.

And to those drivers who keep droning on about "user pay": your idiotic and destructive lifestyle choice is not my fault.

[ 01 September 2005: Message edited by: obscurantist ]


From: an unweeded garden | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
scooter
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posted 01 September 2005 05:18 PM      Profile for scooter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Joe_Canadian:
I too have seen so many empty buses.
[/QB][/QUOTE]
Wow, if we were so lucky. Out here the buses are usually jammed packed. They can't bring enough of them online. Transit use out here, Calgary, has gone up about 80% in the last few years.

From: High River | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
scooter
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posted 01 September 2005 05:20 PM      Profile for scooter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I find it ironic that the babble is being used to boycott a nationally owned (until recently) company. So much for nationalizing our oil industry. Wouldn't it be better to boycott an evil American oil retailer?
From: High River | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Joe_Canadian
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posted 01 September 2005 05:28 PM      Profile for Joe_Canadian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by robbie_dee:
http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/petition/gasout.htm

[ 27 August 2005: Message edited by: robbie_dee ]


You must be flipping a coin to come up with this reply bacause boycotting ONE gas retailer has worked in the past, and that is proof enough to me that it would work again. Are you sure you don't work for Petro-Canada?

I just sold my stocks in a few oil companies at a tidy profit, and so now I really don't care what happens to their sales, but if the public weren't buying my product, but were buying my competitors product for 14 days, I'd drop my prices down to the lowest I could bear in order to get you to buy mine.

I know that as a fellow Canadian, you aren't very familiar with true competition, but perhaps you should educate yourself on some of the principles that govern a free market system.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
nuclearfreezone
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posted 01 September 2005 05:32 PM      Profile for nuclearfreezone     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I quit driving my van on June 3rd/05. I walk, I take the bus and it's not so bad at all.

It's my personal boycott against the whole auto industry and against this "adoration of the vehicle" that's gone on in NA forever. I'm just sick of it!

Cars pollute, they're noisy, they're costly in terms of repairs and now gas, and, now, in the 21st century, wars are being fought over oil and gas, and I want no part of it, at all.

Since I started walking: I have more energy, I've lost a few pounds, my dog gets more exercise, I see things I've missed by driving past them all the time, I'm getting to know my neighbours from several blocks away, I can hear the birds singing, I see the flowers blooming, and I have more money in my pocket and a free conscience.

So I guess my boycott is permanent. Anyone care to join me?


From: B.C. | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Mush
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posted 01 September 2005 05:32 PM      Profile for Mush     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
[ 01 September 2005: Message edited by: Mush ]
Edited for snarkiness directed at the "free market" comment.

[ 01 September 2005: Message edited by: Mush ]


From: Mrs. Fabro's Tiny Town | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
scooter
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posted 01 September 2005 05:54 PM      Profile for scooter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by nuclearfreezone:
I quit driving my van on June 3rd/05. I walk, I take the bus and it's not so bad at all.

Cool, think of the money us save. How often do you have to take a cab?

From: High River | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
blacklisted
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posted 01 September 2005 06:01 PM      Profile for blacklisted     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
gas just boycotted itself for me. price in Nelson jumped 15 cents a liter in 4 hours to $1.23/liter. that's about 30 cents in two months.
my explorer is now a lawn ornament.

From: nelson,bc | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Joe_Canadian
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posted 01 September 2005 06:02 PM      Profile for Joe_Canadian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I've been using the bus a bit more than usual lately, and it's a great mode of transportation in a lot of cases. I think they could charge more for the bus, and still capture more riders. That said, they still stink up the air a lot. I knda wish they'd burn recycled chip oil, that way, their fumes would smell like french fries, and be good advertising for my local chip stand.

quote:
Originally posted by scooter:

Cool, think of the money us save. How often do you have to take a cab?


From: Ottawa | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Joe_Canadian
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posted 01 September 2005 06:04 PM      Profile for Joe_Canadian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Gas at Petro-Canada today is now at 85 cents a liter. A friend just called me about it. The Shell station near my home is still at 1.203/l. I can see the sign from here.

And some of the guys here said this boycott wouldn't work...ahh..fess up guys...yuh'all must be working for Petro-Canada :<))

quote:
Originally posted by blacklisted:
gas just boycotted itself for me. price in Nelson jumped 15 cents a liter in 4 hours to $1.23/liter. that's about 30 cents in two months.
my explorer is now a lawn ornament.

[ 01 September 2005: Message edited by: Joe_Canadian ]


From: Ottawa | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
nuclearfreezone
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posted 01 September 2005 06:11 PM      Profile for nuclearfreezone     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Scooter. I take a cab when I do heavy groceries about every 2 weeks($3.50 to my door and he helps me with the groceries); when I took my cat to the vet last week ($4 each way). Other than that I walk, bus it and I bought a backpack so I can carry more stuff.
From: B.C. | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Joe_Canadian
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posted 01 September 2005 06:21 PM      Profile for Joe_Canadian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by BleedingHeart:

Just returned from Sydney Aust where all the buses and most of the taxis run on natural gas.


Did you notice the name GAS in Natural Gas....it is still a Gas Product, and it comes from the same place you get your gasoline.

A guy here goes around to the chip stands, and they give him their old chip oil becuz they have to pay to have it taken away, and he takes it away for free. He filters it, and mixes it with a bit of alcohol, and uses it in his trucks. Costs him about 10 cents a gallon,,yup...a GALLON for the finished product, and all the money stays here in Canada. No gas tax, no gst, no taxes at all, and less polluting than diesel fuel. He says he also uses it in his oil furnace. Cost to heat his home for the winter, about $75.00. My cost to heat my home with Natural Gas, about $935.00 per year.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
blacklisted
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posted 01 September 2005 06:22 PM      Profile for blacklisted     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
one way to cut those costs
http://tinyurl.com/88q4c
don't get caught

From: nelson,bc | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 01 September 2005 06:38 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Joe_Canadian:
I'm also wondering why we don't convert to Ethanol now. It's $1.08 a GALLON, has almost no pollution, no sulphur, is renewable, and it would spend in Canada the $40B we are now sending to those Arab States that foster terrorism. They are probably using our own money to finance the terrorists! How stupid can we get???

Ethanol is not cost-effective when you do an energy balance on the entire process, and it is this that requires Archer Daniels Midland to suck up $2 billion plus a year in subsidies to make ethanol cost-effective.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Joe_Canadian
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posted 01 September 2005 08:13 PM      Profile for Joe_Canadian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You know, it's always the gas companies that tell us that ethanol(alcohol made from plant matter) isn't cost effective. It is cost effective, and alcohol retails for $1.08 per gallon right now. Furthermore, ethanol costs a lot less to manufacture, because it's a fermentation process, as opposed to gas, which costs huge amounts to distill(heat to boiling point).

If you want to compare pollution in the manufacturing process, alcohol is used to heat the fermentation mixture to just above room temperature, where in gas, you have to heat the mix to each components boiling temperature. Wanna guess what the gas companies use to heat that mix? Right...Gas, or Natural Gas. Then there are the waste products from manufacturering. For gas, that's tar, and sludge. For alcohol, it's high quality fertilizer. If you really want an eye opener, take a look at what it costs to get a liter of gas from Tar sands projects.

And if you have an oil spill...like say the Excon Valdiz, you have unbelievable damage to the environment, but with Ethanol, there's almost no damage...it can be flushed away with...uh...water. Jeez that's almost too easy.

I suppose this guy must work for the gas companies too. Talkin about how much it costs us to make alcohol. Gas companies...they have no respectability. They'd sell gas at $1.30/L to their own mothers, and kids.

Incidentally, alcohol has NEVER been implicated in causing cancer. Gas on the other hand has many elements in it that are known carcinogens, such as Benzene. We aren't saying suspected, but KNOWN CARGINOGENS folks.

[ 01 September 2005: Message edited by: Joe_Canadian ]


From: Ottawa | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
blacklisted
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posted 01 September 2005 10:12 PM      Profile for blacklisted     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
and ethanol grows on.... oops. now where did that ethanol tree go?
From: nelson,bc | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Bookish Agrarian
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posted 01 September 2005 11:22 PM      Profile for Bookish Agrarian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The well know schills for big oil the NFU (National Farmers Union) says this about the net loss of energy in ethanol production.

NFU Ethanol policy

[ 01 September 2005: Message edited by: Grant I R ]


From: Home of this year's IPM | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Nam
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posted 02 September 2005 12:45 AM      Profile for Nam     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Joe_Canadian:

I too have seen so many empty buses. And have any of you ever heard of user pay. None of the city bus companies anywhere in all of Canada can run without 66% of the costs paid thru taxes. This means that even the users of the bus aren't paying the cost to run them.

[ 01 September 2005: Message edited by: Joe_Canadian ]


Well J_C, you are simply wrong. Calgary City Council has mandated Calgary Transit to recover 50% of their costs from the farebox. "User pay" eh? Actually the pollution, wear and tear on the road sytem, and capital cost of building three lanes of traffic to allow all the SUV drivers to get downtown aren't covered by any user fee, and I wish they were.


From: Calgary-Land of corporate towers | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Nam
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posted 02 September 2005 12:49 AM      Profile for Nam     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Joe_Canadian:

Did you notice the name GAS in Natural Gas....it is still a Gas Product, and it comes from the same place you get your gasoline.


Actually no. Gas that you put into your car is refined from crude oil, while natural gas is, well, it's natural gas - something completely different. Yes, I guess it comes from the same place you get your gasoline just as gold comes from the same place as your copper - underground.

Oh, those spelling mistakes.

[ 02 September 2005: Message edited by: Nam ]


From: Calgary-Land of corporate towers | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
canadianpatriot
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posted 02 September 2005 02:03 AM      Profile for canadianpatriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I always wondered if a Indepedent gas company could afford to sell gas at 59.9 cents Litre while the surrounding ones who were at 1.20 a Litre, would the big boys match the 59.9?

I remember there used to be little "gas wars" in my area, but no more.

By the way If gas prices continue to rise I'll have to Turn my Toyota into a "Martin Buggy"

[ 02 September 2005: Message edited by: canadianpatriot ]


From: National Capital | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 02 September 2005 02:13 AM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I always wondered if a Indepedent gas company could afford to sell gas at 59.9 cents Litre

I doubt it. If by "independent" you mean just a retailer, or chain of retailers, they have to get their gas from somewhere, which means a company with refineries. No way would any refining company undercut its own retail operations.

Conversely, any "independent" big enough to have its own refining capacity is one of the big 'uns. Refineries are hellish big and expensive.

[ 02 September 2005: Message edited by: 'lance ]


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Anonymous
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posted 02 September 2005 02:33 AM      Profile for Mr. Anonymous     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Joe_Canadian:
An empty bus gets 3 miles to a gallon of diesel, and you can't drive an empty car, but even when a car has only one occupant, it still gets about 20 miles per gallon. To do the math, that means that a bus has to have at least 6.6 paying passengers to make it equal to a car with just the driver in it. If you car-pool, then the car becomes even more efficient.

I too have seen so many empty buses. And have any of you ever heard of user pay. None of the city bus companies anywhere in all of Canada can run without 66% of the costs paid thru taxes. This means that even the users of the bus aren't paying the cost to run them.


I suspect (in Edmonton, anyways) that the average bus has at least 6.6 people on it. Many of those people are children, elderly, or disabled, making other forms of transportation difficult if not impossible. This also speaks to the cost issue, as well as the issue of societal inclusivity (especially for the elderly and disabled) who would be severely comprimised without the service.

One should also realize that - in addition to the above - some low occupancy routes are neccesary to get people to switch to transit, as they may need to connect from inside of high trafic corridors to get to different places which may be outside of those corridors, if only once in a while.

I also suspect the cost issue (regarding subsidization of public vs. private transportation) may be somewhat uninformed. I think that public transportation is close - and probably even better - in this regard. That is to say public transportation is similarily or less subsidized per capita than the total per capita susbidization of private vehicles.

Also, many people drive SUV's, trucks, or vans, which are generally much less fuel efficient than cars.

Edited to add:

Interesting about the cost effects of the boycott though. As a former insider, do you take this to mean that they are lowering prices to a level at which they are still making money, or to a price below the break-even point in order to break the boycott (and similar ones in the future)?


Edited again to add:

The Boiling Frog Collective (from Edmonton, Alberta) offers bio-diesel for cheap. Don't know the exact price, but well below regular gas. It is available and apparently runs with minimal modification on all diesel vehicles.

[ 02 September 2005: Message edited by: Mr. Anonymous ]


From: Somewhere out there... Hey, why are you logging my IP address? | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Joe_Canadian
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posted 02 September 2005 11:40 AM      Profile for Joe_Canadian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Anonymous:

Interesting about the cost effects of the boycott though. As a former insider, do you take this to mean that they are lowering prices to a level at which they are still making money, or to a price below the break-even point in order to break the boycott (and similar ones in the future)?
[ 02 September 2005: Message edited by: Mr. Anonymous ]


Frankly, I could care less if the gas companies are selling at a loss, but if they are selling at a loss, how are they making those billions in profits?


From: Ottawa | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Joe_Canadian
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posted 02 September 2005 11:43 AM      Profile for Joe_Canadian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Nam:

Actually no. Gas that you put into your car is refined from crude oil, while natural gas is, well, it's natural gas - something completely different. Yes, I guess it comes from the same place you get your gasoline just as gold comes from the same place as your copper - underground.

Oh, those spelling mistakes.

[ 02 September 2005: Message edited by: Nam ]


Natural Gas is what pushes the Liquid Crude Oil out of the ground. Of course there are Oil Wells where they have to pump the Crude out of the ground, but where there is Natural Gas, there's crude too. No wonder we are so easily scammed by the gas companies, we don't even know where the stuff comes from(sigh)

[ 02 September 2005: Message edited by: Joe_Canadian ]


From: Ottawa | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Joe_Canadian
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posted 02 September 2005 11:49 AM      Profile for Joe_Canadian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Nam:

Well J_C, you are simply wrong. Calgary City Council has mandated Calgary Transit to recover 50% of their costs from the farebox. "User pay" eh? Actually the pollution, wear and tear on the road sytem, and capital cost of building three lanes of traffic to allow all the SUV drivers to get downtown aren't covered by any user fee, and I wish they were.


You make my point very well, Rapid Transit is heavily financed by the taxpayers rather than the riders....meaning it isn't anywhere near cost efficient.

Also, the wear and tear on the roads is caused by those heavy buses that require six thicknesses of asphalt to hold their weight, while roads with just cars on it require three.

Furthermore, those gas taxes(aka road taxes) are paid for by the cars who buy gas, whereas public vehicles pay zero gas taxes.

You really ought to get more acquainted with who pays for what pal.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Nam
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posted 02 September 2005 03:57 PM      Profile for Nam     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Joe_Canadian:

Natural Gas is what pushes the Liquid Crude Oil out of the ground. Of course there are Oil Wells where they have to pump the Crude out of the ground, but where there is Natural Gas, there's crude too. No wonder we are so easily scammed by the gas companies, we don't even know where the stuff comes from(sigh)

[ 02 September 2005: Message edited by: Joe_Canadian ]



Since you, by your own admission, don't know where the stuff comes from, perhaps you would stop putting forward wrong information. For instance, you say "where there is Natural Gas (sic), there's crude too." That is not always true. Of the three types of wells that produce natural gas, only one involves invloves crude oil - that one is called, oddly enough, an oil well. The other two types, gas wells and condensate wells, have little or no crude oil associated with them. Please read a little more on the subject, or do as I have the ability to do - walk down the street because every second person in Calgary is knowledgable about the oil and gas industry.


From: Calgary-Land of corporate towers | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Nam
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posted 02 September 2005 04:11 PM      Profile for Nam     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Joe_Canadian:

You make my point very well, Rapid Transit is heavily financed by the taxpayers rather than the riders....meaning it isn't anywhere near cost efficient.

Also, the wear and tear on the roads is caused by those heavy buses that require six thicknesses of asphalt to hold their weight, while roads with just cars on it require three.

Furthermore, those gas taxes(aka road taxes) are paid for by the cars who buy gas, whereas public vehicles pay zero gas taxes.

You really ought to get more acquainted with who pays for what pal.


Actually you seem to have missed the point of my quote. You had stated no transit system can operate without at least 66% of its cost being borne by taxpayers - I provided you with an example that contradicts your comment, but you don't acknowledge it. Cost efficient can mean many things. Others have stated above about how transit provides a public good, and it is difficult to measure that. For instance, the fact seniors have access to affordable transit means they may get out and do more recreation, keeping themselves healthy, and therefore not putting more pressure on the healthcare system, saving dollars in the grand scheme of things. Also, you comment that drivers of cars pay gas taxes (road taxes), which I agree but gas taxes do not come close to paying for road construction or maintenance - that comes from all taxpayers, not user fees.

Actually, I'm very well aquainted with who pays for what in our society.


From: Calgary-Land of corporate towers | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 02 September 2005 11:22 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
roads with just cars on it

My Dad used to be a public relations officer for the trucking industry. That's how I know that there are no roads "with just cars on it".

Trucks use roads to bring food and industrial goods from place to place. They require thick roads just like busses do.

And, by the way, gasoline taxes don't come CLOSE to paying for roads. They are subsidized by the taxpayer, too.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Anonymous
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posted 03 September 2005 05:05 AM      Profile for Mr. Anonymous     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Joe_Canadian:

Frankly, I could care less if the gas companies are selling at a loss, but if they are selling at a loss, how are they making those billions in profits?


The question was in regards to Petro-Canada in particular selling at 85 cents per liter, not gas companies in general. Is this a matter of attempted boycott busting in your opinion, or do you think the are making money on the gas at this price?


From: Somewhere out there... Hey, why are you logging my IP address? | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
a lonely worker
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posted 04 September 2005 01:16 AM      Profile for a lonely worker     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I find it ironic that the babble is being used to boycott a nationally owned (until recently) company. So much for nationalizing our oil industry. Wouldn't it be better to boycott an evil American oil retailer?

Scooter, I think you're onto something. Every week i get e-mails about gas prices. Everyone ALWAYS has Petro Canada as its target. Call this a conspiracy theory but I seem to remember getting most when Martin was lauching his firesale of our remaining shares last spring.

Those shares have now doubled in price and we are totally without any voice in our own oil industry. Another example of our tax cuts at work!

Our Ontario government did the same with Sunoco
some years ago.

Just once I would like to see one of these "random" targets be Esso. Who are without doubt the most pro-bush anti-environment company out there.

Greenpeace has already launched a world-wide boycott of Esso:

Stop Esso: The world's number 1 climate criminal

I will never use Esso and even though Martin has given away Petro Canada at least it still has some Canadian connection (making it possible to once again regain control if we ever get someone with a vision leading our country) as well as the independants.

I wish we could get Co-Op or Citgo gas in Ontario!


From: Anywhere that annoys neo-lib tools | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Joe_Canadian
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posted 04 September 2005 01:23 AM      Profile for Joe_Canadian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by a lonely worker:

Scooter, I think you're onto something. Every week i get e-mails about gas prices. Everyone ALWAYS has Petro Canada as its target. Call this a conspiracy theory but I seem to remember getting most when Martin was lauching his firesale of our remaining shares last spring.

Those shares have now doubled in price and we are totally without any voice in our own oil industry. Another example of our tax cuts at work!

Our Ontario government did the same with Sunoco
some years ago.

Just once I would like to see one of these "random" targets be Esso. Who are without doubt the most pro-bush anti-environment company out there.

Greenpeace has already launched a world-wide boycott of Esso:

Stop Esso: The world's number 1 climate criminal

I will never use Esso and even though Martin has given away Petro Canada at least it still has some Canadian connection (making it possible to once again regain control if we ever get someone with a vision leading our country) as well as the independants.

I wish we could get Co-Op or Citgo gas in Ontario!


Another gas company executive I suppose. Petro-Canada is ripe since they have been 2-4 cents a liter higher priced thatn their competitors. By the way, you might save your Loyalty to Canada for the folks who have to buy the gas....there's a lot more of them.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Joe_Canadian
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posted 04 September 2005 01:28 AM      Profile for Joe_Canadian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Anonymous:

The question was in regards to Petro-Canada in particular selling at 85 cents per liter, not gas companies in general. Is this a matter of attempted boycott busting in your opinion, or do you think the are making money on the gas at this price?


Are you sayin we should care? Because if we should care about anyone, it should be the poor folks who have to buy the gas at any price.

Boy are we Canadians ever stupid. We defend the people who sell us gas at twice the price as last year at this time. We defend the terrorists who take our money for gas, and then use it against us. We even defend those poor criminals who kill us, because they must have been troubled youths. Isn't it time we defended the people who really need to be defended, namely, the poor, the children, the people who go to work each and every day because they have to earn the money to live.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Joe_Canadian
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posted 04 September 2005 01:34 AM      Profile for Joe_Canadian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Nam:

Actually you seem to have missed the point of my quote. You had stated no transit system can operate without at least 66% of its cost being borne by taxpayers - I provided you with an example that contradicts your comment, but you don't acknowledge it. Cost efficient can mean many things. Others have stated above about how transit provides a public good, and it is difficult to measure that. For instance, the fact seniors have access to affordable transit means they may get out and do more recreation, keeping themselves healthy, and therefore not putting more pressure on the healthcare system, saving dollars in the grand scheme of things. Also, you comment that drivers of cars pay gas taxes (road taxes), which I agree but gas taxes do not come close to paying for road construction or maintenance - that comes from all taxpayers, not user fees.

Actually, I'm very well aquainted with who pays for what in our society.


That must be some great dope you are smoking if you actually believe that the Gas Taxes wouldn't cover the cost of building roads. TAke a quick look at the finances of the Federal and Provencial Governments websites, and you'll see that the Gas taxes so far collected in 2005 would pay to build us a 4 lane road, completely across Canada, and then some. If only they spent it on roads. Regrettably, both governments spend that money on everything else but roads.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
a lonely worker
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posted 04 September 2005 01:53 AM      Profile for a lonely worker     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't think any oil Exec would hope for one day having a leader who would demand our oil be used for our needs first as opposed to being fast tracked to Nebraska for refining and then shipped back to us at rip off prices thanks to NAFTA.

Here's a statistic: it cost pennies a litre currently around 13 cents and predicted to drop to only 9 cents a litre to extract tar sands oil (the most expensive type) but by the time it makes its way through big oil's greed machine we're all getting hosed.

This also includes Albertans who incredibly pay through the nose for their own gas.

Another interesting statistic is that before Bush invaded Iraq there was subtle overatures made about us getting a piece of their 5 cents a litre nationalised oil once Haliburton and Esso set up shop.

Remember, those 50 cent a litre days? How come no one on the right is questioning what role Bush has had on increasing oil profits by driving the prices through the roof?

Yes, Joe "Canadian", I agree a boycott is warranted but again can we at least target the most evil of a bad bunch of thieves first like Esso?

Greenpeace: Esso refuses to tackle global warming

Here's another link to read about Esso:

Boycott Bush

Notice that once again Esso is at the top of the list?

I'm definitely not saying Petro Canada is perfect especially now that we gave it away. I'm just saying that there currently is a world wide movement to boycott the biggest thugs in the business. Doesn't it make sense that we join the rest of the world in taking this action instead of the only Canadian bit player on the world stage?


From: Anywhere that annoys neo-lib tools | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Anonymous
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posted 05 September 2005 11:31 PM      Profile for Mr. Anonymous     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Joe_Canadian:

Are you sayin we should care? Because if we should care about anyone, it should be the poor folks who have to buy the gas at any price. ...

Isn't it time we defended the people who really need to be defended, namely, the poor, the children, the people who go to work each and every day because they have to earn the money to live.


My question was related to the economics of the gas price, nothing else. I am still interested in the answer if you happen to have gotten one from your friend or your past experience in the industry.

If you wish to defend the poor, however, I suggest you look into (our government's adherence to) NAIRU theory, designed to keep 8% of Canadians unemployed, or the supression of cheap or free alternative energy patents by oil companies and others. Getting the word out on those topics would go a long way to improving our situation, much more than any punitive actions on the oil and gas industries ever would, in my estimation.

[ 06 September 2005: Message edited by: Mr. Anonymous ]


From: Somewhere out there... Hey, why are you logging my IP address? | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Joe_Canadian
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posted 06 September 2005 10:45 AM      Profile for Joe_Canadian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by a lonely worker:
Notice that once again Esso is at the top of the list?

I'm definitely not saying Petro Canada is perfect especially now that we gave it away. I'm just saying that there currently is a world wide movement to boycott the biggest thugs in the business. Doesn't it make sense that we join the rest of the world in taking this action instead of the only Canadian bit player on the world stage?


I know what you are saying about Esso is probably all true, but I didn't choose the company to be boycotted.

According to the email I received, Petro-Canada was chosen by random chance(a toss of the dice). I presume this was done so that no oil company could take legal action against the people who starting the boycott. When the dice are tossed next time, it'll probably come up with a different company for the follow up 14 days. I do know some things are certain:

- if we are divided about which company is to be boycotted, then the gas companies win,
- if we cannot agree, the gas companies win,
- if we cannot stand together, the gas companies win

We have a very small chance of success, but in order to win, we must use our combined purchasing power to bring them to their knees. We must use their own greed against them.

If we fail, you'll see the greedy gas companies rejoicing astronomical profits in 3 months. That will be on your back, and the backs of every Canadian who uses any mode of transportation, and every Canadian who needs gas, oil, or electricity to heat their homes. Even buses need oil to run, and my contacts at the local municipality tell me that bus passes are about to double in cost. Also, if you think that you'll get a deal on electricity, think again. They use oil, and Natural Gas to generate a lot of electricity. Even in cases where electricity is generated without the use of gas, you don't really think that those electricity companies are going to pass on the opportunity to gouge you...do you???? IN my opinion, they aren't much better than the gas companies.

So, if we fail, you ought to get ready to kiss goodbye to about another 20% of your disposable income by January of next year. It's already gone, you are now fighting to win it back.

[ 06 September 2005: Message edited by: Joe_Canadian ]


From: Ottawa | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Joe_Canadian
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posted 06 September 2005 11:20 AM      Profile for Joe_Canadian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Anonymous:

My question was related to the economics of the gas price, nothing else. I am still interested in the answer if you happen to have gotten one from your friend or your past experience in the industry.

If you wish to defend the poor, however, I suggest you look into (our government's adherence to) NAIRU theory, designed to keep 8% of Canadians unemployed, or the supression of cheap or free alternative energy patents by oil companies and others. Getting the word out on those topics would go a long way to improving our situation, much more than any punitive actions on the oil and gas industries ever would, in my estimation.

[ 06 September 2005: Message edited by: Mr. Anonymous ]


I do not wish to be pulled into a different debate about unemployment, or government. This discussion is all about those greedy gas companies, and what they do to you, me, and all those who are less fortunate than us. I only mention the poor to show how little regard the gas companies have for any of us. They regard our wallets, and only our wallets. They'd do anything to get their hands deeper into your wallet, and I mean anything. They have no moral standards. They have no ethics. They don't even know the meaning of truth. These guys make the people at Enron look like Angels.

The gas companies will always find ways to justify their price increases, but just look at the astronomical profits they have just released, and explain how they lost money on anything. I mean you gotta be kidding...right?

[ 06 September 2005: Message edited by: Joe_Canadian ]


From: Ottawa | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Joe_Canadian
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posted 06 September 2005 11:24 AM      Profile for Joe_Canadian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Posted in error

[ 06 September 2005: Message edited by: Joe_Canadian ]


From: Ottawa | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Grover
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posted 06 September 2005 11:28 AM      Profile for Grover     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
According to this report from transport canada, expenditures on roads are roughly equal to road taxes collected.


From: On the pacific | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Joe_Canadian
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posted 06 September 2005 11:50 AM      Profile for Joe_Canadian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Grover:
According to transport canada, expenditures on roads are roughly equal to road taxes collected.

Uhh Grover, did you happen to notice the brackets around the 1997/1998, and 1998/1999 figures. That means that the NET was money not spent on Roads. Also, I happen to know that the numbers reported by the Provinces, especially Ontario, was after they siphoned money out to use elsewhere, in general government revenues. Governments were supposed to keep this road tax moneys separate, and the Auditor General of Ontario complained about them not doing it but it remains the same.

Also, you will observe that the last year reported was 1999/2000, and those tiny brackets....they,re around a whole bunch bigger figures since then, that's why it's unreported.

You'll also note that the whole cost of roads that are shared by Buses and Cars, are put against the Cars, however automobiles only need 33% of the thickness of asphalt to run on. The upgrade to allow buses to run on those roads quadruples the cost of the road. Furthermore, when Ontario builds a 4 lane road, and designates 1 lane for buses, the cars pay for that road too. The only road cost you see charged to the rapid transit are the roads built exclusively for them.

Also, did you notice note 'B' at the bottom of that report? You probably missed that line about under-reported stuff, and Net stuff.

So, you see, the devil is in the fine print. Numbers can be used to tell any story you want to tell. You politicians must be getting used to telling us lies, and thinkin we are buying what you are selling. We aren't dumb anymore. We gettin smarter dollar by dollar.

For me, I just look at what's left of my paycheck to know who gettin my money. Every time Net Income git smaller, I see taxes git larger. Every time disposable income get smaller, I know either taxes, gas, or electricity got more.

By the way, I see you are from BC...do you actually believe what the government tells you? If you do, I may have a bridge you could buy,,,,cheap.

[ 06 September 2005: Message edited by: Joe_Canadian ]


From: Ottawa | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
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posted 06 September 2005 01:36 PM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
For me, I just look at what's left of my paycheck to know who gettin my money. Every time Net Income git smaller, I see taxes git larger.
Bullshit. When did you last see a tax increase?

I know lots of people who are suffering shrinking paychecks, and taxes aren't the cause. Lost benefits are. Cutbacks and user-fees are.Ever increasing disparity is - because you're paying bigtime to finance tax cuts - and the rich are enjoying them, while you suffer.


From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Joe_Canadian
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posted 06 September 2005 01:42 PM      Profile for Joe_Canadian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Lard tunderin' jeesus:
Bullshit. When did you last see a tax increase?

I know lots of people who are suffering shrinking paychecks, and taxes aren't the cause. Lost benefits are. Cutbacks and user-fees are.Ever increasing disparity is - because you're paying bigtime to finance tax cuts - and the rich are enjoying them, while you suffer.


Ya know, you can call taxes a lot of different things. Me, I call it a tax whenever the government gets the money. Big News for all you politicians out there.....THE MAJORITY OF US FEEL THE SAME WAY!!!

Let me spell this out to yuh-all Politicians out there...I'm not into splitting hairs here...

IF THE GOVERNMENT GETS THE MONEY IT'S A TAX.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
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posted 06 September 2005 02:23 PM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Just because it's deducted off your paycheck doesn't mean it's a tax. Your payments are just as likely going to insurance companies as the government.

But the tax cuts are all going to people who make a lot more than you - and always will. That's that sad thing - how people like you can be duped into voting against your own best interests, time and time and time again.


From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
quelar
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posted 06 September 2005 05:01 PM      Profile for quelar     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by blacklisted:
and ethanol grows on.... oops. now where did that ethanol tree go?

Dumbass, it's not a tree...It's a GRAIN

Why do I bother?


From: In Dig Nation | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Joe_Canadian
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posted 06 September 2005 05:42 PM      Profile for Joe_Canadian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Lard tunderin' jeesus:
Just because it's deducted off your paycheck doesn't mean it's a tax. Your payments are just as likely going to insurance companies as the government.

But the tax cuts are all going to people who make a lot more than you - and always will. That's that sad thing - how people like you can be duped into voting against your own best interests, time and time and time again.


Sorry, I forgot to put Insurance Companies on the list. Those blood sucking, life sapping, money scabbing companies are on the list now too.

Speaking for myself, I am never duped into voting, EXCEPT when the Liberals LIE TO ME!!, or when they CHEAT ME OUT OF MY MONEY LIKE WITH ADSCAM!!

I guess my expectations for politicians are at a new low since the Liberals did their thing the last few years. Now I expect my politicians to lie, and cheat me. Fortunately, I have a local politician who does not appear to do either - Pierre Polievre, and he actually seems to do the right things. I may vote for him again...especially if their party shows me a plan to get on 85% Ethanol within 10 years.

I am mad as hell, and not ready to take any more lieing, or cheating from anybody!!

Whatever happened to honesty, integrity, and honour?


From: Ottawa | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Joe_Canadian
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posted 06 September 2005 06:00 PM      Profile for Joe_Canadian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by quelar:

Dumbass, it's not a tree...It's a GRAIN

Why do I bother?


It seems there is no shortage of fools out there. Thanks for pulling 'blacklisted' up short.

Just an fyi for everyone. Ethanol can be made from ANY plant matter. The current preferreed method is to make it from the waste products of Corn, and Grain, but it can be made from Dandelions, Grapes, Apples, Cabbage, Soy, Bark, and any other plant waste. Iogen in Ottawa has developed a way to use almost any plant matter to make Ethanol. Ethanol is the alcohol you can drink without going blind. It is preferable to use grain, or corn waste because there is lots of it, and because it means we are using the waste from producing grain, and corn which would otherwise be gathering somewhere else. Also, in Canada, corn can be grown almost anywhere, it just grows like a weed. Furthermore, the corn niblet can be used to make Corn Niblets for food, Corn Oil for making biodiesel, corn starch, and sugar(Corn Syrup).

The waste product from production of Ethanol, can be used as fertilizer.

Ethanol spills can be cleaned up with plain old water, and a 50/50 mix of water neutralizes it. It has been used for years in medicine, and is a Non-carcinogen. None of those claims is true of oil. I don't know if anyone saw the tv show this weekend, but the Excon Valdiz oil spill which occurred about 10 years ago, is still affecting living animals out there today. In fact, in the show, they dug a 1 foot deep hole there recently, and oil filled that hole from below almost immediately. This is 10 YEARS AFTER THE OIL COMPANIES CLEANED UP THAT SPILL!!

Now I am not any kind of environmentalist, but this speaks to me. If we stay on oil, we are going to kill ourselves. Medical Researchers say that in our lifetime, 1 in 3 people will develop cancer. I know this is true, because I am one of those, and my sister is another. There are 6 in my family, and we have no previous history of cancer in our family back at least 6 generations. A lot of oil products are KNOWN carcinogens...not suspected, but KNOWN. Take benzine for example. Comes from oil, is in your gas at the filling station. Take a deep breath when you are filling your tank next time....become one of the three. If you are a family of 3, look around you...one of you will develop cancer. 3 of my neighbours have cancer, two people I work with have cancer, and two people in another group I spend time with also have it. I can't be delicate about this folks...WE HAVE TO GET OIL OUT OF OUR IMMEDIATE ENVIRONMENT, or we better prepare to lose one in three of those you love.

Currently Canada sends about $40B per year to Middle Eastern States to buy oil. Those Oil Producing Countries spend virtually none of that back here. At this rate, in 10 years they will own Canada. Right now you have to know that all of those Middle Eastern States play both sides of the street. ON the one hand they are our friends, and behind the door, they finance terrorists...WITH OUR OWN MONEY!

We are so stupid.

Just take a moment to dream what Canada could do if that $40B was being spent here, employing Canadians, and helping our farmers, not to mention that Ethanol costs about $1.08 a gallon, or about 24 cents a liter(RETAIL).

[ 06 September 2005: Message edited by: Joe_Canadian ]


From: Ottawa | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Deep Dish
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posted 06 September 2005 09:47 PM      Profile for Deep Dish     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Somebody in this thread mentioned they wished they had co-op gas bars around, we have them here in Saskatchewan and they cost as much as any other gas station.
From: halfway between the gutter and the stars | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Joe_Canadian
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posted 06 September 2005 10:06 PM      Profile for Joe_Canadian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Deep Dish:
Somebody in this thread mentioned they wished they had co-op gas bars around, we have them here in Saskatchewan and they cost as much as any other gas station.

That's becuz they have to buy their gas from one of the biggies.

Let me share with you a bit about how the big gas companies work. Their are several levels in the gas system. There can be - Oil Companies, who own the oil wells, Holding Companies, Refiners, Delivery Companies, and Retailers. In order that the retailers don't LOOK like they are making loads of cash, the big oil refiners charge the next person in the chain gas at retail less a few cents. Everyone down the chain does that, and so except for the oil company, everyone else is making a very slim profit. Often, these retailers are owned(thru all those other levels), by a subsidiary of the oil companies, but sometimes they are independant. That way, if the Retailers are forced by the government to show their profits, they have virtually none. And the same holds true for everyone in the chain, except the oil company. At the top of the chain are the big oil companies. Often these are foreign owned, and so their profits can be huge, and they have no duty to report them to Canadian Government, just to their shareholders, and the public. Those numbers can be skewed, and manipulated in many many ways, but you always see them reporting obscene profits.

Just fyi, those big American Corps like Walmart, Home Depot, and others also have the ability to do this, but I do not know if they do, or not. This is also how they can avoid paying obscene Canadian Taxes.

You might now be wondering why those independant retailers go into business. You will observe that most of them mix Ethanol with their gas, and most of them charge the same for their Ethanol Gas Mix as the biggies do for their regular. Ethanol is much cheaper than gas($1.08 per gallon, or about 24 cents a liter), and so they make their profit on the price difference.

Many Retailers use gas to attract customers to their repair business, though you see many of those going it without the gas pumps. The independants can also buy from the cheapest supplier on the spot market daily, and so they can get the lowest price available from all 4 biggies.

If you want co-op to work, we need to go to E85, which is 85% Ethanol, to 15% gas. It's unlikely that Canadian Competition Laws would allow the Gas Companies to own the Ethanol Manufacturers too.

So, what do you think?

[ 06 September 2005: Message edited by: Joe_Canadian ]


From: Ottawa | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Deep Dish
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posted 06 September 2005 10:17 PM      Profile for Deep Dish     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Not sure of that Joe, the co-op refinery is visible from my office window. I've seen the co-op trucks fill the co-op gas stations.

[ 06 September 2005: Message edited by: Deep Dish ]


From: halfway between the gutter and the stars | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 06 September 2005 10:18 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
DuCeppe is finally stepping up:

Mr. Duceppe and the other opposition leaders also hope to force the government to respond to the surging price of gasoline.

The Bloc hopes to call petroleum industry officials before Parliament's industry committee to explain their actions.

“The profit is not made at the pump, but on the refinery margins,” Duceppe said. “Last week, the refinery margins were 47 cents, while a margin of seven cents ensures large profits.”

He accused Mr. Martin of not reacting because of his ties with the petroleum industry in western Canada.

from: http://tinyurl.com/8rckn


From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Joe_Canadian
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posted 06 September 2005 10:23 PM      Profile for Joe_Canadian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Deep Dish:
Not sure of that Joe, the co-op refinery is visible from my office window. I've seen the co-op trucks fill the co-op gas stations.

[ 06 September 2005: Message edited by: Deep Dish ]


Signs and Paint are cheap.

More research is likely to yield more truth. Betcha that if you check, you'll find that refinery is owned by some holding company, and that the ownership gets really fuzzy the further up the chain you go.

Take a picture of the refinery for me will ya.

[ 06 September 2005: Message edited by: Joe_Canadian ]


From: Ottawa | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Joe_Canadian
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posted 06 September 2005 10:28 PM      Profile for Joe_Canadian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Boom Boom:
DuCeppe is finally stepping up:

Mr. Duceppe and the other opposition leaders also hope to force the government to respond to the surging price of gasoline.

The Bloc hopes to call petroleum industry officials before Parliament's industry committee to explain their actions.

“The profit is not made at the pump, but on the refinery margins,” Duceppe said. “Last week, the refinery margins were 47 cents, while a margin of seven cents ensures large profits.”

He accused Mr. Martin of not reacting because of his ties with the petroleum industry in western Canada.

from: http://tinyurl.com/8rckn


I am not hopeful that any investigation will yield any results. These same Oil Company Execs have been in Ottawa before, and you can hear the whining miles away. I'll get my ear plugs out of mothballs yet another time, but I won't be expecting anything.

Other thing is that many of those same politicians own Mutual Funds that are rich in Resources. You won't find much...uh...backbone there. They are like jellyfish.....no backbone, and they look sooo pretty just before you get stung. Don't buy into any party favour companies, there won't be any celebrations any of us can expect to be joining in.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Deep Dish
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posted 06 September 2005 11:52 PM      Profile for Deep Dish     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Federated Co-op - the owners
http://www.fcl.ca/

Pics of the co-op refinery, these are the only ones I could find - but anybody in Regina can back me up on this, the place is huge...

http://www.supremesteel.com/ssk/projects/co-op_refinery/co-op_refinery.html

And Finally on its ownership

quote:

The upgrading plant is operated in conjunction with a refinery owned by Consumers' Cooperative Refineries Limited (CCRL). Saskatchewan's Crown Investment Corporation and CCRL each own 50 per cent of the NewGrade heavy oil upgrader.


http://wideopenfuture.ca/promote-cs-sf-bi-hou.html

[ 06 September 2005: Message edited by: Deep Dish ]


From: halfway between the gutter and the stars | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Joe_Canadian
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posted 07 September 2005 12:14 AM      Profile for Joe_Canadian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Deep Dish:
Federated Co-op - the owners
http://www.fcl.ca/

Pics of the co-op refinery, these are the only ones I could find - but anybody in Regina can back me up on this, the place is huge...

http://www.supremesteel.com/ssk/projects/co-op_refinery/co-op_refinery.html

And Finally on its ownership


http://wideopenfuture.ca/promote-cs-sf-bi-hou.html

[ 06 September 2005: Message edited by: Deep Dish ]


Remember, the co-op still has to buy the crude oil from an oil company. I bet they don't make a bunch of cash refining the crude to gas, and other products.

What do you think?


From: Ottawa | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Deep Dish
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posted 07 September 2005 12:53 AM      Profile for Deep Dish     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
http://www.globeinvestor.com/snapshots/01001898.htm

They seem to be doing pretty well, and I don't know how much went back to the members.

You are probably right on the raw resource, but I think I proved the signs and paint had substance behind them...

I guess my point is that co-operatives aren't much of a positive force as far as the consumption of goods goes - their operation is very similar to other businesses in that respect. So did the co-operative in Regina push down gas prices? No, but the co-ops are pretty good employers and spend their money locally, which is why they are a good thing.

[ 07 September 2005: Message edited by: Deep Dish ]


From: halfway between the gutter and the stars | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Grover
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posted 07 September 2005 11:53 AM      Profile for Grover     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Uhh Grover, did you happen to notice the brackets around the 1997/1998, and 1998/1999 figures. That means that the NET was money not spent on Roads.

Yes, Joe, I did see that. And in the other years, there were no brackets, meaning the gov't spent additional money. Financial Statements 101. However, if you look at the values, they are quite small in comparison to the total revenues. That's why I said "roughly equal" not "exactly equal."

quote:
Also, I happen to know that the numbers reported by the Provinces, especially Ontario, was after they siphoned money out to use elsewhere, in general government revenues. Governments were supposed to keep this road tax moneys separate, and the Auditor General of Ontario complained about them not doing it but it remains the same.

And some people happen to know the earth is flat. Do you have a source for this, or are we just going off your knowledge?

quote:
Also, you will observe that the last year reported was 1999/2000, and those tiny brackets....they,re around a whole bunch bigger figures since then, that's why it's unreported.

Or maybe it's just an old report? Like its title "Transportation in Canada 2000" might suggest?


quote:
You'll also note that the whole cost of roads that are shared by Buses and Cars, are put against the Cars, however automobiles only need 33% of the thickness of asphalt to run on. The upgrade to allow buses to run on those roads quadruples the cost of the road.

Firstly, roads are shared by trucks in addition to Buses and Cars, and those extra layers are needed for the trucks as well as buses, and these costs are borne by trucks as well as cars. Secondly, given the significant costs of prepwork that would not have to be repeated in building a road with extra thickness, making a road 3x as thick would not make it cost 4x as much.

quote:
Furthermore, when Ontario builds a 4 lane road, and designates 1 lane for buses, the cars pay for that road too. The only road cost you see charged to the rapid transit are the roads built exclusively for them.

I don't know about ontario, but here just about any bus lane can be used by carpools as well.

quote:
Also, did you notice note 'B' at the bottom of that report? You probably missed that line about under-reported stuff, and Net stuff.

You're being very presumptious, and it is very irritating. Yes, it says expenses may be under reported if local governments spend money on trasnport that was not connected to a specific grant from the provincial government. This would imply that government is spending even more on roads than it is collecting in road revenues, which if I understand you correctly, contradicts the point you are trying to make.

(cut)

quote:
By the way, I see you are from BC...do you actually believe what the government tells you? If you do, I may have a bridge you could buy,,,,cheap.

Joe, you raise some valid points, however you come across as incredibly condescending, making it hard to recognize them.


From: On the pacific | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
The Sherrif
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posted 07 September 2005 06:26 PM      Profile for The Sherrif     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I dunno about anyone else, but I'm all for cheap gas. This site here tells us where to get it - Ottawa Gas Prices

Joe makes some good points, as does everyone else, but can I ask all of you one question? If gas was 87 Cents a litre at one station, and 1.236 at another, where would you want to buy your gas. From all the comments here, it sounds like everyone would go to the 1.236 place. Now that is a truely Canadian trait.

I'm on empty now, and going to MacEwans. Bye for now.


From: Nepean | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
scooter
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posted 07 September 2005 06:40 PM      Profile for scooter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by a lonely worker:
I will never use Esso...

That would be nearly impossible to do out here. Most of the independent retailers buy their gasoline from Esso.

From: High River | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
abnormal
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posted 07 September 2005 08:14 PM      Profile for abnormal   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Way back when, as an undergrad, I commuted to university - with rare exception I gassed up at an "independent" on the highway in the middle of farm country. Given the time of day I went through I'd regularly see his tanks being filled - today it was Esso, next time it was Shell, the next time it was Sunoco, the next time it was a logo I'd never seen before ...

I appreciate you're trying to boycott Esso but in reality, there's a very high probablility that's what you're buying.


From: far, far away | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
The Sherrif
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posted 08 September 2005 05:12 PM      Profile for The Sherrif     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Whew,,,well, gas prices are in free fall, thank god. After reports that the US Attorney General was looking at several US Oil Giants with a view towards laying charges, gas prices started to fall.

Apparently, according to a number of news stories, a bunch of internal memos became public showing that Americans were being ripped off by those Oil Companies.

Gee big surprise. Pardon my scecpticism, but does anyone know an honest politician, or oil company.

Anyway, stock markets are saying that oil prices per barrel are tanking, and all those Oil Speculators are taking huge losses. Pardom me while I cry some crocodile tears for them. I HOPE THEY LOSE THEIR SHIRTS! boooo...hoooo.

Retail prices are dropping here with Pioneer selling at 96.6 this morning. I guess that the Gas Boycott may be working too, since Petro Can is next lowest, but apparently with few takers.

Aw...I can't talk about this any more....anyoen else have some enlightenment on this topic. I think I'd rather read than write. Over to you.


From: Nepean | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
scooter
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posted 08 September 2005 05:23 PM      Profile for scooter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Sherrif:
Apparently, according to a number of news stories, a bunch of internal memos became public showing that Americans were being ripped off by those Oil Companies.

The memos were sent out in 1996. Ooh...how did they know about Katrina back then...oooh....

Don't know an honest politician, then you don't know the NDP.


From: High River | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
The Sherrif
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posted 08 September 2005 05:31 PM      Profile for The Sherrif     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by scooter:

The memos were sent out in 1996. Ooh...how did they know about Katrina back then...oooh....

Don't know an honest politician, then you don't know the NDP.


I dunno, the news story say these are recent documents. 1996 is ancient history, not recent. I'm going to try to find a copy of this story in CNN, and if I can find it, I'll put the link here.


From: Nepean | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
scooter
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posted 08 September 2005 05:37 PM      Profile for scooter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ok, I admit I'm jerk'n your chain a bit.

I just read the Mobil memo. I would be nice to know Dizio, Morgan, and others mentioned in the memo positions in the company.


From: High River | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
The Sherrif
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posted 15 September 2005 12:22 AM      Profile for The Sherrif     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Got an email today about the gas boycott. Apparently the target for September 15 to 30 is Esso.

I dunno about this, but today Shell is selling at 99.9, and Pioneer at 96.8. Alternatively, Esso is at 103.7.

McEwan has taken their prices down.


From: Nepean | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Red Albertan
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posted 15 September 2005 08:59 PM      Profile for Red Albertan        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
From what I see in the financials someone posted a while ago, taxes collected roughly equal expenditures for roads. I for one do not want to see gas taxes reduced, because within 4 weeks the oil companies would pick up the slack and fill the hole left by the reduced taxes with their own margin, leaving the government without the revenue to make the necessary repairs to the infrastructure... this is bound to happen, unless you trust the oil execs to give you "fair value".

Secondly, costs created by the use of combustion engines go well beyond repairing roads. It creates a cost to our environment, a cost in noise pollution, a cost to our general health, which is not factored in, and which costs are carried by the taxpayers, those who become victims of natural disasters which are increasing as a result of climate change, and those who get sick from the polluted air, just because people use combustion-engine driven vehicles more than necessary, or are so immature that they have to have everything "Monster-Size", including the absolute and abhorrent WASTE of a finite resource, so that they can drive their Sports Car, SUV, Hummer or 4X4 on city streets.

I also drive on occasion, but I would like to see the price of gasoline increase significantly, so that people will think more before getting behind the wheel. Energy is still way too cheap.

The only complaint I have is that the resources which ought to belong to the people have been handed to a few private hands which now sell us our own resource back at 'world price'... thankt you very much... and I am especially referring to Natural Gas, which for most is not a convenience 'flammable', but is necessary to heat their homes during the long cold period of the year. Are you all ready for $18 per million BTU for this winter? 3x the price of last year.

[ 15 September 2005: Message edited by: Red Albertan ]


From: the world is my church, to do good is my religion | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged

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