Allen's mother is from Tunisia, and speaks French.

Anyway, I remember that babble had a thread on this, and that one usually-sober babbler thought that the issue wouldn't get any traction.

So, I thought I'd post this:

quote:

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In Virginia, the “macaca” comment appears to have hurt incumbent George Allen, who went from a comfortable lead in previous Zogby polls to now trailing Democrat James Webb, a former secretary of the Navy

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The sooner we dispose of this idea that the Democrats represent opposition to the right in the US, the sooner we will be able to concentrate on creating a real opposition.

[ 29 August 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

But it is a precondition.

It goes without saying(and I hate to have to admit this myself)that not voting Democratic for the forseeable future means giving up on any hope for progressive change in the US.

As long as the Republicans have political control in our country, nothing positive or progressive can occur. End of story.

The three step process we need to follow is

1)Defeat the GOP Congress solidly
2)Put constant pressure on the newly elected Democratic Congress to actually be progressive(including passing electoral reforms that would open up the gates to alternative politics in and OUT of the Democratic Party.
3)Continued generation of NEW left-of-center ideas and organizations outside of the party process to drive the public debate.

Those who say we need to smash the Democrats first are going to consign the US to permanent right-wing rule. Because the Democratic party is where the vast majority of people who would be the natural base of any left identify with, and in spite of everything, there is no indication whatsoever that they are going to just defect en masse to a new independent left party.

I've worked within the party and without it, and the conditions for the massive and rapid transition on the center-left and left(as in, for example, the swing from the old Liberals to the Labour Party in the UK between 1906 and 1924)do not exist. Our current electoral system won't permit it. And our most recent attempt at a "new" party, the Greens, is deeply unpopular and is held responsible by millions of liberals, progressives and even outright leftists for the splitting the anti-Bush vote in 2000(I know its a bogus charge, but it's not going to go away. Ever.)

Be suspicious of the Democrats. Hold them in contempt. But, for this year, they are what we've got.

(Of course, the one exception to this is Vermont, which is almost certainly going to elect independent socialist Bernie Sanders to the U.S. Senate this fall.)

That is just pretty sounding rhetoric.

In the eight years before GWB was elected, the Democrats were "in power" during that period they did not manage to institute a national heatlthcare program, they did in Serbia what everyone here is whining about the Israelis doing in Lebanon, and completely ignored a legitimate peacekeeping mission in Rwanda, and so it seems through lack of interests allowed for a massive ethnic cleansing to take place, while supporting sanctions that likewise killed millions in Iraq.

So in other words, the precondition you seek, (the defeat of the Republicans) has been met time and time again, and the historical evidence is, if you bother to ask the Vietnamese, (whose people the Democrats slaughtered in their millions,) for example, there is no significant difference between the two, except perhaps in rhetorical style.

"We think it is worth it."

-- Madeline Albright.

Sure its a step up from "the sand niggers can eat dust," but it amounts to the same thing really.

Democrats are unlikely to be csught saying overtly racist things in the media it is true, but that is about it, really. the Democrats are not rude. So what?

In the meantime well meaning people distract everyone by suggesting there is substantive progress to be made using the Democratic Party as a vehicle.

[ 29 August 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

I think that if those nasty bastards win again that will be seen as a sign to continue their aggressive ant-international, anti-people and hateful course, whatever the hell that may be in the future. The last thing the US needs is another run of Republican rule.

[ 29 August 2006: Message edited by: Stargazer ]

I support using the "throw the bums out" strategy for voting against the left as well when they betray their base but there are times when it seems like a better strategy to give them a chance not to fuck up again. In the next election with Bush out, it will be interesting to see where the two parties turn, if Hilary is leading the Democrats there is no way I'd vote for the Dems tho unless the Republicans ran Pat Robertson, although with that lineup you would have to think a strong independent would have a chance.....

[ 29 August 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

Why should we vote for parties who(unlike in Canada, where your system does at least partially accomodate alternative parties, though not enough)cannot beat the most reactionary party?

Are you seriously suggesting that we could successfully organize a progressive movement in this country if, say, the GOP were left in power without a serious electoral challenge for the next twenty years?

What possibilities would exist for change if we simply conceeded a long-term period of ultraconservative rule, which is what doing what you advocate would have to mean?

With the GOP defeated, there would then be space for progressives. At the moment, there isn't any. Is that that hard to understand, Cueball?

Not dysfunctional, non-functional.

Pressure must be brought upon the systems of ruling Oligarchy from the outside, so that it is forced to reform. Trying to do this from within merely engages peoples energy round after round of pointless contests that only serve to legitimzie the oligarchy.

The Communists in Russia did not fall from power because people kept joining the party in futile efforts to reform the party, they made it fall by proving that it was untenable as a governing organization, and that it had no legitimacy.

[ 30 August 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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And I am saying the evidence suggests that having the Republicans in power is more or less irrelevant. What has been demonstrated is that the American electoral system as it stands today is non-functional.
Not dysfunctional, non-functional.

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Absolutely right Cueball. It is truly amazing, to hear folks time and time again talking about disenfranchised and disillusioned voters coupled with so many examples of corrupted political decision making.

I mean, it is not fair to say "nothing works and they are both the same" when you and I and they know not much can be changed between here and then.

Let's take a look at Bill Clinton:

Started a war with Iraq under false pretenses
Failed to bring in Universal Health Care
Opted out of Kyoto.

Really, the only difference between Republicans and Democrats is:

1) Less protection of Christianity under Democrats
2) Less protection of the poor under Republicans.

It's two sides of the same coin - multi-millionaire ivy leaguers competing to run the nation.

Each side gets caught taking bribes, and all manner of vile thing - and the way the American people protest is to vote for the other side - ensuring the elites always maintain power.

And any attempt to bring in a real alternative is stomped out with cries of 'wasting your vote'.

But you can't really say it won't be impossible to change things as long as Bush and Cheney and their acolytes hold power.

You need outside pressure and an inside that's open to being pressured. Republican administrations can NEVER be forced to do anything progressive.

Clinton would have cared if the party's activists had said that if he didn't listen to them, he'd face a strong primary challenge.

The problem in that administration was that he didn't receive ANY leftward pressure.

You aren't really saying there's a good reason to vote Green this year, are you?

Why?

We tried it your way in 1996 and 2000. If it couldn't do any good in those years, how can it ever work in the future? Fact it, in the US, until we get electoral reform through, the Greens and all other third parties are dead in electoral terms. There is NO good reason to vote for them until we get electoral reform in place.

What the hell do we gain from voting for third parties that can't win under our system? Or from not voting?

If the Republicans hold Congress again, there can never be even the possibility of any left movement. The story will be over. Don't you get it?

We have to get them out. Then we organize to make their replacements better. This isn't capitulation, it's a sane, workable strategy.

Why do you not care if the far right stays in power in the US?

[ 30 August 2006: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]

[ 30 August 2006: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]

But that doesn't justify leaving it electorally unchallenged to just go on making everything worse.

Oh! That's the Ralph Nader position!

But they don't support Nader, I am pretty sure.

quote:

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Shelton said Allen used the n-word only around white teammates.

Shelton said the incident with the deer head occurred during their college days when he, Allen and another teammate who has since died were hunting on a farm the third man's family owned near Bumpass, Va., 40 miles east of the university.

Shelton said Allen asked the other teammate where black families lived in the area, then stuffed a deer's head into the mailbox of one of the homes.

"George insisted on taking the severed head, and I was a little shocked by that," he told the AP. "This was just after the movie `The Godfather' came out with the severed horse's head in the bed."

Shelton said he came forward because of Allen's presidential prospects and the "macaca" incident.

"When I saw the look in his eye in that camera and using the word `macaca,' it just brought back the bullying way I knew from George back then," he said.

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quote:

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Shelton said Allen used the n-word only around white teammates.

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quote:

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Allen's mother is from Tunisia, and speaks French. -Jeff House

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Upon its independence, Tunisia criminalized racism to protect its Jewish minority, among others.

Alas, Allen's mother must have skipped town before 1956 and never had the opportunity to impress on her son that racism is a very serious offence.

quote:

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Henrietta Lumbroso, comes from a prominent Sephardic Jewish family from Tunisia. -Wikipedia

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[ 07 December 2006: Message edited by: sidra ]