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Author Topic: rape vs seduction
otter
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12062

posted 28 September 2006 10:47 AM      Profile for otter        Edit/Delete Post
I just had to see what Babblers thought about the commonalities to be found in both the acts of rape and of seduction.

Both are all about sexual conquests
both are about the ability of one person to exert certain aspects of personal power and control over the sexuality of another
both operate from the premise of male privilege over women
both share the goal of using and exploiting another human being in a sexual manner and then discarding them afterwards while moving onto other, newer conquests

The only real difference is in the delivery of the agenda. One is socially acceptable, while the other is deemed deviant. And, depending upon the culture, the aceeptability and deviance can vary from one to the other as well.


From: agent provocateur inc. | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8312

posted 28 September 2006 11:00 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I completely disagree.

1) Rape is about force and power while seduction is about consent.
2) Women can be great seducers and no one is seduced who doesn't want to be.
3) Seduction is no more about using and discarding another person than is an invitation to dinner. It is about two adults consensually engaging in a game that can stimulate arousal and provide a greater satisfaction to each.

I think your premise is way off base.


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
500_Apples
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Babbler # 12684

posted 28 September 2006 11:09 AM      Profile for 500_Apples   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There's obviously a difference. From conversations with other men though and looking back on more of those conversations, I suspect the real issue is that many men would have trouble discerning the difference.

[ 28 September 2006: Message edited by: 500_Apples ]


From: Montreal, Quebec | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
Martha (but not Stewart)
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Babbler # 12335

posted 28 September 2006 12:45 PM      Profile for Martha (but not Stewart)     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by otter:
I just had to see what Babblers thought about the commonalities to be found in both the acts of rape and of seduction. ..... The only real difference is in the delivery of the agenda.

The only real difference is consent.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged
StockwellDay
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10342

posted 28 September 2006 01:26 PM      Profile for StockwellDay     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by otter:
I just had to see what Babblers thought about the commonalities to be found in both the acts of rape and of seduction.

...

The only real difference is in the delivery of the agenda. One is socially acceptable, while the other is deemed deviant. And, depending upon the culture, the aceeptability and deviance can vary from one to the other as well.


My first thought was what the hell is this doing in the feminism forum. My second thought was to visit Breadnroses more often. Right now I'm wondering if this is what you mean by being provocative.

Some people believe that yes and no mean different things. I guess some people don't. Maybe you'll find that trend holds across cultures.

The only point of interest for me is the question of which is considered to be socially acceptable in our culture. Violence against women seems to be accepted by most people as a non-story, while 'sluts' are considered to be deviant.


From: the right coast | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2732

posted 28 September 2006 04:20 PM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Interesting using the term seduction as a strawman. Consent and honesty are the only real issues. Lying to achieve an end is not seduction in my understanding of the term. Seduction is enticement or in my case when I was younger and single it meant highlighting nothing but the best qualities of both me and the person I was romantically interested in. Sex is best when it is not about conquest but instead merely about mutual pleasure.
From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Catchfire
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Babbler # 4019

posted 28 September 2006 05:47 PM      Profile for Catchfire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, I should let one of the more well-versed in this area speak, but I will lead in until they arrive. Rape is never, ever about sex. It is not about sexual conquest, sexual satisfaction or even arousal. It is only ever about power and domination. Even the most obscene and anti-feminist forms of seduction (i.e. Tom Cruise's character in magnolia) is leagues above rape.

The two have absolutely nothing in common. Consent doesn't even begin to describe the difference.


From: On the heather | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Summer
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12491

posted 28 September 2006 06:52 PM      Profile for Summer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

Both are all about sexual conquests both are about the ability of one person to exert certain aspects of personal power and control over the sexuality of another

Rape and sexual assault have nothing to do with sex. Rape is about power. Rape is about violence.
Seduction is part of the dialogue between two people who are attracted to one another. If person A is not at least mildly attracted to person B, the seduction will not work.

quote:
both operate from the premise of male privilege over women

Women are just as capable of seduction as men. (some might argue women are more effective); while some people might be seduced into sex and later regret their actions, they did consent at the time.


I was going to write more about the distinction, but feel like it's not worth the effot. It boggles my mind that people continue to confuse and compare rape with any other sexual activity.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged
Southlander
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Babbler # 10465

posted 29 September 2006 01:14 AM      Profile for Southlander     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I was seduced but not raped the first time I had sex. I felt violated afterwards and didn't feel it was very different to a drunken date rape, but at the time I obviously enjoyed it. I was into heavy petting, had been for quite some time, he was more innocent than me and said afterwards he thought I was just being coy. I did ask him to stop three times, which he did, and I could have left the room at any of these occasions, but I did not. I still think it was a misunderstanding, and I later on I did not regret it, figuring I had to get started sometime, and sex as it turns out,is better than heavy petting.
Doing it again, I would state the ground rules more clearly, and outline my previous experiences. I do think I would have got there on my own, but it would have taken a bit longer.

So seduction isn't much different to date rape, (just the longer approach) and date rape is still rape.


From: New Zealand | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Southlander
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Babbler # 10465

posted 29 September 2006 01:15 AM      Profile for Southlander     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
glad you guys are never going to meet me!
From: New Zealand | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Southlander
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10465

posted 29 September 2006 01:37 AM      Profile for Southlander     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"Rape and sexual assault have nothing to do with sex. Rape is about power. Rape is about violence.
Seduction is part of the dialogue between two people who are attracted to one another. If person A is not at least mildly attracted to person B, the seduction will not work."

Just because you're attracted, doesn't mean you want to have sex!

I don't think people can comment unless they have been seduced by someone they havn't previously had sex with.


From: New Zealand | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stargazer
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6061

posted 29 September 2006 04:08 AM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Consent and honesty are the only real issues. Lying to achieve an end is not seduction in my understanding of the term. Seduction is enticement or in my case when I was younger and single it meant highlighting nothing but the best qualities of both me and the person I was romantically interested in. Sex is best when it is not about conquest but instead merely about mutual pleasure.

Actually no, consent and honesty are not the only real issues. Rape has nothing to do with either, so I fail to see how pretending it does gets at a 'real issue'. And consent itself is not defined for the most part by the victim, but by the rapist, the police and the courts. So consent is a construct in this sense. It is taken away from the victim first by the rapist and then the courts.

I'm not sure about seduction but I agree with Southlander that using this term to imply consent fails to miss the seduction of vulnerable people. I hope I read you right Southlander.

I do agree with you though that sex is best when it is about mutual pleasure.


From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
bigcitygal
Volunteer Moderator
Babbler # 8938

posted 29 September 2006 04:27 AM      Profile for bigcitygal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
otter, I really hope you're kidding, and that you're laughing in front of your computer at those of us who are taking you seriously.

Because the alternative is that you're serious, and frankly, that's pretty scary.

When I saw the thread title on TAT I wondered what troll had invaded overnight.

So, onwards.

Rape covers a huge range of actions, some of which have been defined already by others here, so I won't repeat them again. Rape is about power and dominance expressed in a sexual way. Look at all-male prisons and how rape happens there if anyone is confused on that point.

Seduction is a bit of an antiquated term, and has some sexist cobwebs still clinging to it. But using it in the 21st century context it's about fun, playfulness and the possibility of getting it on.

The following aren't my words, but I forget where I first heard them:

Rape is to seduction like smashing someone in the face with a frying pan is to cooking.


From: It's difficult to work in a group when you're omnipotent - Q | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stargazer
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6061

posted 29 September 2006 04:34 AM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hey BCG, I also question his motives, actually in more than just this one post. I was too mad to post anything when I first read it. I've calmed down a little.
From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2732

posted 29 September 2006 10:12 AM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stargazer:

Actually no, consent and honesty are not the only real issues. Rape has nothing to do with either, so I fail to see how pretending it does gets at a 'real issue'.



I wonder some times how you read posts since no where did I say or pretend that rape has anything to do with honesty and consent actually I said exactly the opposite.

Sorry but you seem to have misinterpreted what I meant. Consent and honesty are the issues because rape is all about power and if you have both honesty and consent then the sex is not about power it is about mutual attraction.


From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
otter
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12062

posted 29 September 2006 06:32 PM      Profile for otter        Edit/Delete Post
I am pleased to see that some posters were willing to simply address the commonalities found in both rape and seduction because there is a very important aspect of social perceptions to be found here.

I agree that there are a whole array of aspects found in both events that have nothing to do with the other. But those were never intended to be part of the discussion.

This is only, and solely, about the exploitive aspects that these two events share in common and, perhaps even challenge the "don juan, casanova and chamberlain" personalities as not as stellar as some seem to celebrate them as in Western culture.


From: agent provocateur inc. | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
StockwellDay
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10342

posted 29 September 2006 10:17 PM      Profile for StockwellDay     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by otter:
I am pleased to see that some posters were willing to simply address the commonalities found in both rape and seduction because there is a very important aspect of social perceptions to be found here.


No. They're really not that important.


From: the right coast | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stargazer
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6061

posted 30 September 2006 05:45 AM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Sorry but you seem to have misinterpreted what I meant. Consent and honesty are the issues because rape is all about power and if you have both honesty and consent then the sex is not about power it is about mutual attraction.


Aw sorry for misreading that kropto.

From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stargazer
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6061

posted 30 September 2006 05:48 AM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh give it up Otter. I'm pretty freaking sure most people would rather be seduced than raped. Sometimes I really think you have no idea of what you speak and persoanlly I'm having a hard time, I'm thinking you are as silly as the posts you start.

If you ever do get raped, and I really hope you don't, please do come back and define for us hopw rape and seduction are similar. Until then, you haven't go a clue.


From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 30 September 2006 06:13 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh my god. How on earth did I miss this thread? I mean, I think I saw the title, but I didn't know what it was about.

As StockwellDay says, what the hell is this doing in the feminism forum? Rape and seduction the same thing? What the hell is this even doing on babble at all?

I'm closing this. It's ridiculous.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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