I am looking for responses to my questions below. I seek out all persons of goodwill to respond in haste to any or all these questions...
Is law an appropriate arbiter in determining who is or who is not a human being?

Who here fails to recognize that for several months of your life, you were protected in the safety of your mother’s womb?

Is it true that the product of human conception is always a human being, absent natural disaster or lethal intervention?

If the strong have the right to declare the innocent and vulnerable outside the bounds of legal protection, should we all have much to fear?

Does abortion follow the contraceptive mentality like night follows day? Is failed contraception the primary reason for abortion?

Does the license to abort one's own child support the irresponsible male tendency in our culture to treat women as objects of sexual gratification and pleasure to the exclusion of moral norms or a respect for human life?

When will our society be one where every child is protected in law and welcomed into life?

When will women cease to shoulder the disproprtionate brunt of the intense physical, psychological and spiritual trauma associated with the destruction of unborn human life in her own womb?

Oh Dude.

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If the strong have the right to declare the innocent and vulnerable outside the bounds of legal protection, should we all have much to fear?

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Originally posted by RealityBites:

Yes, from people like you who seek to deny me legal protection.

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Give him a chance first RB. Ask him if he supports you right to marry another man.

Then, if the answer is no, slap the shit out of him.

edited to add

I'll hold him down. A person of God had better understand that we are all made in Gods image and love can exist between any and all of us.

[ 19 January 2005: Message edited by: HeywoodFloyd ]

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Originally posted by Saint Luke:
Why is it being closed? Is it because the truth that abortion hurts women is in fact true?

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The truth is in fact true only if you define your own beliefs to be true. Otherwise, no.

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Originally posted by Saint Luke:
Why is it being closed? Is it because the truth that abortion hurts women is in fact true?

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oh dear god.... OF COURSE IT DOES!!! no woman skips happily to the abortion clinic!!! no woman parties b/c she just aborted her baby!!!!

buddy, why don't you try being a poor, pregnant single mom who gets NO help and NO respect from her gov, the father of her child....NO ONE!!!!!

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Originally posted by HeywoodFloyd:
Then, if the answer is no, slap the shit out of him.

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I'm pretty sure it's come up before during his earlier invasion. Besides, it's superfluous. He's already crossing the line in the feminism forum.

[ 19 January 2005: Message edited by: RealityBites ]

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wrote mind your own damn business.

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audra trower williams wrote

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Ding ding ding!

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Originally posted by Saint Luke:
This is discriminatory, narrow-minded, totalitarian, dishonest and reveals the certitude of a perceived alarmist and reactionary fecundity....

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hmm...sounds like you're talking about, oh...i don't know...yourself, perhaps?

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I belive in Nazi Germany, Catholics were also unauthorized to speak out on issues of importance to their state of human affairs in that period of history....

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wasn't hitler catholic? if so, what you said wouldn't make sense...

*no offense meant to any catholics*

[ 19 January 2005: Message edited by: ShyViolet417 ]

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Originally posted by RealityBites:

I'm pretty sure it's come up before during his earlier invasion. Besides, it's superfluous. He's already crossing the line in the feminism forum.

[ 19 January 2005: Message edited by: RealityBites ]

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Oh. Never mind then. Do you prefer if I hold him by the arms or the hair.

As to the feminism forum, I knew that. If he had posted it in body & soul, politics, or any other forum there's a slight chance he'd get a discussion going.

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hitler catholic? if so, what you said wouldn't make sense...

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Hitler rejected all forms of traditional religion including his baptized religion... he made himself and his regime out to be his own god.... perpetrated great crimes against my countrymen during the war.... murdering eight million of them in cahoots with Stalin, another god in his own right....

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Originally posted by Saint Luke:
ShyViolet417
wrote wasn't

Hitler rejected all forms of traditional religion including his baptized religion... he made himself and his regime out to be his own god.... perpetrated great crimes against my countrymen during the war.... murdering eight million of them in cahoots with Stalin, another god in his own right....

Hitler was a also an early proponent of abortion and euthanasia for the lesser races...... interesting eh???

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wasn't sure about the catholicism, jsut remembered reading that somewhere.

as for the euthanasia and abortion, i knew that. what's your point, that hitler's evil and so is abortion? that if someone as bad as hitler supported abortion than it must be wrong?

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The truth is in fact true only if you define your own beliefs to be true. Otherwise, no.

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This is the same type of relativism that justifies the worst of genocides in human history. Even Pontius Pilate asked "What is truth?"....

If nothing is true for everyone, then you can believe whatever you want and there’s nothing I can say to make you change your mind. This is convenient but open to all sorts of individual and collective horrors...

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wrote as for the euthanasia and abortion, i knew that. what's your point, that hitler's evil and so is abortion? that if someone as bad as hitler supported abortion than it must be wrong

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religion has no place in anyone's uterus. also, abortion has existed for a long time. it wasn't some novel invention that came to be in 1973 (well, for america anyhow). that's just when it became LEGAL. as i've stated before, the answer is not to outlaw abortion. the answer is to help the single/poor moms who feel they have no other option. support, not condemnation is needed.

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The Catholic Church stands in persona Christi and condemns the act, condemns the social conditions which allow it, builds up a Culture of Life through imparting its teaching about birth control, human sexuality, and the dignity of the human person, it also provides emotional, spiritual, and FINANCIAL support to women who find themselves as protagonists in the play of an unwanted pregnancy.... what would Jesus do, sounds alot like the comprehensive plan the Catholc Church is guided by.... which other church is doing all of these? none, they've compromised on the truth long ago and now reap what they sow.....

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The Catholic Church also used to cut the testicles off of little boys so their voices would sound prettier. Clearly the mark of an institution with all of the answers involving respect and compassion for life, and living people.

Editded. They're, their, there. They're all the same, why not just have one word?

[ 19 January 2005: Message edited by: Raos ]

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The Catholic Church stands in persona Christi and condemns the act, condemns the social conditions which allow it, builds up a Culture of Life through imparting its teaching about birth control, human sexuality, and the dignity of the human person, it also provides emotional, spiritual, and FINANCIAL support to women who find themselves as protagonists in the play of an unwanted pregnancy.... what would Jesus do, sounds alot like the comprehensive plan the Catholc Church is guided by.... which other church is doing all of these? none, they've compromised on the truth long ago and now reap what they sow.....

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Uh huh...then what happened?

That handle you're carrying is a little presumptuous, don't you think, SL?

[ 19 January 2005: Message edited by: Human Fly ]

personally, i don't care what the catholic church, or any other church, for that matter, says i should do with the contents of my uterus. they have no place in my life, nor do they govern it. if i were to get pregnant, the burden would mainly be on ME. not the catholic church, not my government... i don't see the catholic church offering me food, coupons, daycare, clothing, a crib, babysitting services so i can work...etc... the pope will never know whether or not i have an abortion, nor do i think he's losing any sleep over it now.

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THe Catholic church is a rich organization, and it didn't get that way by financially supporting every poor girl who was forced to bring an unwanted child into the world.

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I wrote what follows below in the other thread and notice that my pro-life feminism may have been censored by the moderator of this forum.

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May have been? You don't take hints well - she closed your thread. As much as I am not a believer in abortion I think it's antagonizing for you, a male in particular, to post this in the feminist section given the nature of the board. We all make mistakes but if you are getting cues and such yet continue to post in the feminist section you should really ask yourself why you want to antagonize.

It would have been more accepted on other areas of the board although you'd have received developmental feedback anywhere given the general trend against the prolife movement on the board.

That being said:

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Is law an appropriate arbiter in determining who is or who is not a human being?

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Not sure.

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Who here fails to recognize that for several months of your life, you were protected in the safety of your mother’s womb?

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Not sure but I don't.

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Is it true that the product of human conception is always a human being, absent natural disaster or lethal intervention?

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yes.

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If the strong have the right to declare the innocent and vulnerable outside the bounds of legal protection, should we all have much to fear?

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In general no but some should.

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Does abortion follow the contraceptive mentality like night follows day? Is failed contraception the primary reason for abortion?

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Abortion is part of the contraceptive mentality to some extent but there are thoughtful people who use contraceptives that would not abort.

The statistics on the groups of individuals having abortions vary considerably between studies but my readings have shown a trend that the group most seeking abortions are persons who did not use birth control or used it episodically or inappropriately.

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Does the license to abort one's own child support the irresponsible male tendency in our culture to treat women as objects of sexual gratification and pleasure to the exclusion of moral norms or a respect for human life?

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To an extent, yes. Again, studies are quite fluid and I think we also have to recognize that it's hard to find really objective material on this but from what I have read there are some studies that suggest that the single greatest factor in a woman's decision is the response of her partner. One of the most prochoice segements of the population is men between the ages of 18-25. There is the possibility that they have a guiding influence over this decision but final authority and responsibility is assigned to the mother.

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When will our society be one where every child is protected in law and welcomed into life?

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I realize you are speaking to the issue of abortion but I would encourage you to look beyond the prenatal period and look at how we treat children overall. Abortion is only part of the puzzle. There are children that aren't valued at various stages of their life and our society has to re-explore this.

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When will women cease to shoulder the disproprtionate brunt of the intense physical, psychological and spiritual trauma associated with the destruction of unborn human life in her own womb?

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Women will always disproportionately face the responsibilities of pregnancy, decision making related to pregnancy, abortion, adoption, and childbirth. It's inherent in our role.

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Was it not his Holiness Pope John Paul II that wrote, "The acceptance of abortion in the popular mind, in behaviour and even in law itself, is a telling sign of an extremely dangerous crisis of the moral sense, which is becoming more and more incapable of distinguishing between good and evil, even when the fundamental right to life is at stake. Given such a grave situation, we need now more than ever to have the courage to look the truth in the eye and to call things by their proper name, without yielding to convenient compromises or to the temptation of self-deception."??

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Unless I've missed the opportunity to meet devout Catholic theologians who come here, other than yourself, this board might know have a wealth of information about the Pope's quotes in the community.

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Yes, from people like you who seek to deny me legal protection

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RB I don't think he's going to get this.

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Why is it being closed? Is it because the truth that abortion hurts women is in fact true?

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My best guess is it was closed because this particular section on the board tends to celebrate more female-led discussions and tailors discussions so that they have a pro-feminist tone. Most of the posters in this section would not see the prolife views as compatible with feminism therefore it violates the spirit of this particular section of babble.

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oh dear god.... OF COURSE IT DOES!!! no woman skips happily to the abortion clinic!!! no woman parties b/c she just aborted her baby!!!!

buddy, why don't you try being a poor, pregnant single mom who gets NO help and NO respect from her gov, the father of her child....NO ONE!!!!!

then we'll talk to ya, k?

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I can't imagine that it is normal for most women to delight at the opportunity to abort. Most people have a painful set of circumstances that lead up to that. Anyone who is prolife should be challenging themselves to contribute in a meaningful way to someone's life so that they can carry their pregnancy to term.

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This sounds like certain people in this forum propose that men are unauthorized to say anything about abortion. This is discriminatory, narrow-minded, totalitarian, dishonest and reveals the certitude of a perceived alarmist and reactionary fecundity.... I belive in Nazi Germany, Catholics were also unauthorized to speak out on issues of importance to their state of human affairs in that period of history....

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I think that the tone for the feminist section has been set and it extends beyond abortion to encompass a number of issues. I'd imagine abortion was one of the more sensitive ones.

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Ya well Luke, the Pope was/is against the Iraq War, so until you start listening to everything the Pope says instead of cherry picking what you like to, (unkindness deleted)

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I agree Remind that it's a good point. I have often wondered how catholics can reconcile that. I'm going to make a point of asking someone who is devout who is in favour of the war how they blend that.

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Hitler was a also an early proponent of abortion and euthanasia for the lesser races...... interesting eh???

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Geez, you are going to get banned.

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The Catholic Church also used to cut the testicles off of little boys so their voices would sound prettier. Clearly the mark of an institution with all of the answers involving respect and compassion for life, and living people.

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i've never heard this.

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i don't see the catholic church offering me food, coupons, daycare, clothing, a crib, babysitting services so i can work

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I am not saying that this church or churches as a whole or people against abortion in general do enough to respond to the needs of women but the catholic church contributes in a meaningful way in all of those areas.

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they don't allow abortion or contraception...what do they propose i do? krazy glue my legs shut if i don't want any kids (including if i'm married)? they don't give a s.hit about woman.

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Just to clarify the RCC teaches faithful members of their church not to practice mechanical contraception. They are encouraged to be welcoming of children and if circumstances warrant to use NFP which has a very high rate of success to space their family. They are not demanding that non-catholics or catholics who wish to live outside of church teachings to do this.

I'm sure that the church would be welcoming of anti-abortion legislation so, clearly, this extends beyond members.

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The Catholic Church wouldn't even Baptise my cousins' baby daughter because my cousin was married by a JP rather than the Church.

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Originally posted by Saint Luke:
This is the same type of relativism that justifies the worst of genocides in human history. Even Pontius Pilate asked "What is truth?"....

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quote: The Catholic Church also used to cut the testicles off of little boys so their voices would sound prettier. Clearly the mark of an institution with all of the answers involving respect and compassion for life, and living people.

i've never heard this.

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And so we in the west pay tribute to aborted fetuses everywhere by nurturing the highest infant mortality and child poverty rates of all developed nations. That's what political conservatives really think of kids. Don't ever fool yourselves.

[ 19 January 2005: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Originally posted by HeywoodFloyd:

They were called castrotti and were highly valued. The last one died in the 20's I think.

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While I know abortion is wrong, wrong for the women and wrong for the human life cut short, the church has NO PLACE in this discussion. Why is that so hard to understand?

If people don't share your belief in the afterlife, God, etc, they aren't going to sit up one day when you're discussing a major social issue in a religious context (such as abortion) and say, GEE, He's on to something there! It's totally illogical to expect that, and, I imagine it accounts for the the reception that you've gotten here.... which is pretty mild, considering.

Focus on the women who are either being misled (that's what happened to a woman I know) as to what abortion actually is, and what the stages of development in utero are, OR, the women who actually feel that they have no other choice... often because of finances, which makes me feel ill. Nobody should ever have to make that decision based on finances... especially in a country as afluent as ours is. It's nothing short of criminal.