Damage to date

Energy

· Jiye power station, 20 miles south of Beirut, repeatedly hit; electricity generator hit in Sibline.

· Electricity in Beirut said to be "feeble and flickering", with large areas cut off.

· In south, electrical supply almost completely cut. Estimated total of 750,000 people without electricity.

· Four gas stores hit; 17 fuel stores destroyed; 12 petrol stations bombed. Prices have rocketed sixfold in some cities, such as Tyre.

Water

· Treatment plant hit in Dair al-Zahrani, south of Sidon.

· Two trucks with water drilling equipment destroyed in Ashrafiyeh, Beirut.

Transport

· Of Lebanon's seven airports, Beirut airport out of action (runways damaged, fuel tanks destroyed), Qoleiaat in the north and Riyaq military airport in Bekaa severely damaged. All main civilian and military radar stations out of action.

· Three main seaports - Beirut, Tripoli and Jamil Gemayel - hit. Maritime operations antenna hit in Tripoli; Beirut lighthouse out of action.

· 38 main roads severely damaged from the air, including road to Damascus.

· 55 bridges destroyed, mainly those running to southern Lebanon.

Medical care

· Two hospitals hit, one in Nabatiyeh and one in the southern suburbs of Beirut; at least one destroyed (Mayss al-Jabal).

· Convoy of donated medical goods hit near Zahle.

Communications

· Hizbullah's Al-Manar TV station in Beirut hit.

Industry

· Liban Lait milk plant in Bekaa hit.

· Tissue paper factory in Sidon attacked.

· Paper mill in southern Beirut hit.

· Medical supplies company in southern Beirut hit; grain silos hit at port.

· Warehouse of Transmed company in Beirut caught fire; $10m losses.

quote:

---

A United Nations post near the Israeli-Lebanese border was hit on Friday during ongoing fighting between Israeli and Hezbollah forces, with conflicting reports about where the attack originated. ...

The Israeli army said rockets fired by the militant group Hezbollah fell short of their targets and landed on the observation post, which is located on the Israeli side of the border near the town of Zarit.

However, an official at the UN post, who spoke to the Associated Press on condition of anonymity, said an Israeli artillery shell hit the building.

Ghanaian troops stationed at the post were in bomb shelters at the time and were not injured, a UN official said.

---

"Bomb and deny" is Israel's modus operandi.

[ 21 July 2006: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

quote:

---

It's technofascism. Average middle-of-the-road people transformed into adjuncts and cheerleaders for the military. Steeped in the lore of might, force and high explosives, it's like watching the gear-up for NFL games. Action over dialogue: "Israel had to do something." Weaponry "pounds" terrorists (what? does no one else live in South Beirut?) like the defense "pounds" a sacked quarterback. The x's and o's of blockading ships and battle tanks veer this way and that like running backs headed for open spaces. No people, no faces, no life - just action, force, and a completely depoliticised political space.

---

Very much so... The 'CNN War Room' has pretty much the same introduction music that Monday night football has on Faux. Showing the big explosions over Lebanon as the intro, then swirling the camera into the insta action reporter along with the headline of 'Our action is more late breaking than yours'. Americans get a very different view of the war than we get... They are mobilizing their team, distributing noise makers, and getting ready to cheer on their squad.

I made a comment on missiles, likely Iranian in origin, that the Hizbollah is thought to present. This was displayed on CNN as a rotating view around the rocket with technical specs being shown... The exact same as used by Nascar. Ever wonder if war is just a media ploy for ratings?

So Israel keeps pushing towards Lebanon and decides that they are going to nail Syria and Iran while they're at it ... or Syria and Iran decide to go into Lebanon before that happens and start lending their full military power to even the playing field (seeing as Iran has jets and surface-to-air assets). What would happen next? Obviously the US would back Israel and so China would want to protect it's oil in Iran would back up Iran? Would Russia jump in? Who would the EU back up?

quote:

---

I'm curious as to just how deep this whole situation can get... could this be the World War 3 that Nostradamus predicted would start in the middle east around this time?

---

Pends who started this. If you view Iran as being behind the coordinated kidnappings of Hamas then Hizbollah soon after, then yes... We could be getting into WWIII. The only way Iran would pick this fight is if they knew they could eliminate the nation of Israel.

If you prefer to follow the Israeli's are the ones who escalated and started the conflict, then I doubt we could use aboves reasoning. One of my fears is Iran did infact prompt the conflict by pulling strings and is ready/capable of using WMD's within Israeli borders (which without doubt would prompt the WWIII sceanrio).

quote:

---

Seems Israel is ready to invade southern Lebanon.

---

That is an interesting scenario as this would pretty much force (so the Lebanese spokesmen have indicated) the Lebanon standing army into the conflict, siding with the Hizbollah. If this occours, Israel will no longer be able to say they are at war with 'Hizbollah terrorist', but infact at war with all of Lebanon (which they are anyway if you consider the civilian targets they are hitting... They just won't be able to pretend they aren't any longer).

Edit to add source from CNN.

quote:

---

Any invasion threatens to pull Lebanon's army into the conflict between Israel and Hezbollah militants.

Lebanese President Emile Lahoud told CNN the Lebanese army is "ready to defend" his country's territory.

"Of course, the army is going to defend its land," Lahoud said.

While the army "cannot be strong enough to be against Israel on the frontier," he said, "inside Lebanon, they can do a lot."

"We are not going to let anybody take our land. We are not going to let them come back and take it," he added.

---

[ 21 July 2006: Message edited by: Noise ]

Yahoo had an interesting line in one of its articles that sums up this ground invasion quite nicely:

quote:

---

Mounting civilian casualties and the displacement of hundreds of thousands of Lebanese could limit the time Israel has to achieve its goals, as international tolerance for the bloodshed and destruction runs out.

---

Israel officials no quite well that international support for them is downhill from here without a doubt. The faster they get this invasion underway, the less of an impact international intervention will have. I have little doubt that Israel will enter Lebanon shortly.

The preformance of the Israeli military here will be watched pretty heavily... All assumptions (which I am sure Israeli commanders already realize) is that the attack on Hizbollah guerillas will see several wins for the Israel military early on (Guerillas vs armoured battalions is a no brainer)... However once any form of occupation occours, we'll see the reverse trend were the Hizbollah Guerillas are in their natural environment and can fight on their terms (I think Israel commanders know this and will be hesistant to occupy anything more then the 'buffer zone' they are trying to promote).

quote:

---

Why does Israel care about international opinion?

---

quote:

---

If Ontario would be bombarded by rockets from the US by a large military group that hates our country and desires its annihilation, for instance, and then Canadian soldiers got kidnapped, what would we do?

---

Venus, your example is incomplete as you're ignoring history. Now if we went in and occupied America... Gutted it's entire military and infrastructure (except for that of the resistors who are resisting, cause well we are occupying their territory) and then left with the explict demand that the gutted American army disarm the resisters (who have more capabilities than the now gutted American military has)... And those resistors continued to fight us over the border, what we do? If we follow Isreal's lead, we then launch huge bombardments at New York indescriminatly killing civilians. You speak as if the Lebanese people or gov't have any choice in these matters.

quote:

---

Bomb the bastards i say, destroy them and restore US government’s full control of its own territory if they wish so, but it would be wise to protect our own country and its people as a first priority.

---

Elegant ^^ It was this bombing and destruction that left the Lebanon army unable to stop hizbollah in the south. Israel has destroyed close to every major road artery into the southern lebanon anyway, so even if Lebanon had the capacity to disable Hizbollah, they lack the logistic means to do so.

As for the shelling of Ontario talking point, Ontario is not at war with the U.S. Israel believes that only it has the right to use force. It starts whining and crying whenever anyone strikes back.

[ 21 July 2006: Message edited by: josh ]

Iranian strategy in providing Hezbollah with its current arsenal was to use Hezbollah's capability to support Iranian strategic aims,not for Hezbollah's use in a futile pissing contest with Israel.

Nevertheless,the Iranian leadership will still provide Hezbollah the means to up the ante if a buffer zone is implemented.

There is no military solution.The only solution is for Israel to engage with Hamas and Hezbollah to negotiate a meaningful solution.

quote:

---

It is being reported the Rice, Israel's errand girl, will be going to the mid-east on Sunday to cheerlead for murder.

---

Sunday? I was under the impression that this visit would be much later. Both the Israeli and American military commanders realize that the start of any invasion vs guerillas like this is going to be heavily in favor of the invaders... Even if the Lebanon military stands up here. They want to give them as much time to kill as many Hizbollah as they can before offering a diplomatic solution.

This land invasion however has a few more implications than my first post too (once again promoting the WWIII theories). Syria has kept itself out of the conflict using the distinction of 'allied with Lebanon not Hizbollah'. If the Lebanese army is forced into the conflict by this invasion, the Syrian stance would be pretty much invalidated. Syria entering this war would defiantely provide the escalation required to hit the WWIII terms.

edit:

quote:

---

A buffer zone for Israel won't work.Hezbollah will simply acquire longer range,more sophisticated technology from Iran.

---

FYI, they already have ^^

[ 21 July 2006: Message edited by: Noise ]

quote:

---

Stupidity and self-obsession doesn’t go along well with clear reason philosophically and even historically.

---

ETA: Imagining this from the Israeli perspective, even if Hezbollah could be disarmed of its rockets and missiles, the need for the buffer zone would still be there, because it'd be impossible to seize all the small arms that Hezbollah possesses. The buffer zone would be useful in stopping border incursions from the Lebanese side - is how I think the Israelis justify the idea.

[ 21 July 2006: Message edited by: Boom Boom ]

quote:

---

Just heard on CBC,Jane's Defense Weekly reports that Hezbollah is using very sophisticated anti-tank missile systems with the assistance of Iranian military personnel.

---

Americans have been broadcasting that for a while now... It was expected that the Hizbollah were nothing more than guerilla fighters similar to Al-Qaeda.... But they are finding this is wrong quickly and tanks that would be near immune to ordinary guerilla warfare are being towed off as steaming scrap metal. At first it was reported as a 1 or 2 off (tanks ran over a roadside bomb which could cripple its propulsion)... But they've stopped reporting this as an actual count. I suspect that Hizbollah have been taking out quite a few tanks now... Which I'd imagine would be to Israeli commanders surprise. Hehe, maybe their the ones who bumped up Condi's visit hey?

quote:

---

ETA: Imagining this from the Israeli perspective, even if Hezbollah could be disarmed of its rockets and missiles, the need for the buffer zone would still be there, because it'd be impossible to seize all the small arms that Hezbollah possesses.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Noise:
The sad fact is the only entity capable of disabling the Hizbollah are not the Isreali, Americans, Iranians, or any other major player.... It's the Lebanese gov't itself and them alone that contain the power to disable Hizbollah.

---

quote:

---

If Ontario would be bombarded by rockets from the US by a large military group that hates our country and desires its annihilation, for instance, and then Canadian soldiers got kidnapped, what would we do?

---

quote:

---

It is my understanding that, before the current scenario, (1) the Lebanese army was outgunned and outfinanced by Hezbollah and (2) for the Lebanese army to attempt to disarm Hezbollah would have been futile (see (1)) and might have rekindled the Lebanese civil war that raged far too long.

---

You are totally correct Martha... The previous occupations have left Lebanon completely unable to do such (That and makes for great reasoning for Israel... Hey, we're going to invade if you don't have people walking on Jupiter within a week. No? Ok, we'll invade and it's your fault).

The Lebanese central gov't needs to be strengthened... Which this bombardment and soon to be invasion has managed to do just the opposite of. Now Hizbollah has gained support from the people of Lebanon and are the closest thing to a working body within Lebanon with the support of the peoples. The Lebanese gov't has been beyond crippled again and again by the Israel bombardments and is pretty much ineffectual once again (and not just now, history repeats. If it says it's the worst bombardment in 25 years, odds are 25 years ago there was a worse bombardment).

The Israeli people should be smarter than this... They should know that all they are doing is creating another crippled nation that cannot control militant groups within their borders.

Venus:

quote:

---

But at times like this historical analysis would perhaps be the last thing for consideration.

---

What type of statement is that? History is doomed to repeat itself. What happened last time Lebanon had it's govt, military, and infrastructure crushed? Oh ya, it became a breeding ground for militant groups because the crushed gov't was helpless to stop them. I know, crushing them again will solve this!!! comon.

quote:

---

Unlike Israel, who cares about their own people and country at least, Iranian government doesn’t, so it appears at least. They are well aware as to where they are ignorantly pushing-towards the war, and they are also aware how many civilian casualties it will bring about-numerous

---

Kay, I really got to ask why you think the Lebanese gov't puts lower priority onto the life of their civilians. Prove that one please. It's not the Iranian or Lebanese gov't that doesn't care about their people, tis you and your warped view on it. The Israeli care about there people and they prove it time and time again, insisting that 24 of their dead is roughly equivlant to 500 dead Lebanese. The reason it appears the Israeli gov't care about their people is because they have absolutely no value for Lebanese or Palestinian life.

quote:

---

? Why cannot the citizens of Lebanon unite against terrorists who hijacked their own country?

---

First, you should know that they are labbled as terrorists by our gov'ts not by their own. The country you are at war with are always led by evil terrorist men of course!

Second, their ability to rise against (I WILL REPEAT THIS AGAIN AS YOU DO NOT SEEM TO UNDERSTAND) has been completely eliminated by past occupations and invasions. The same way when Israel is done this, the Lebanese will have no ability to control the next terrorist group that arises.

If that still hasn't sunk in... I'll quote myself one more time fer you to read:

quote:

---

It's akin to beating you up, leaving you injured, bruised, and naked in the desert with instructions that if you don't take away that group of peoples guns from over there, we're going to come back and beat you one more time.

---

1st ETA:

quote:

---

That in my opinion would be a real resistance to that alien to the Lebanon force that is Hezbollah. Lebanon is a civilized and modern country, while Hezbollah are barbarians full of hate and religious fanaticism and they serve we know whose interests, not as much of the Lebanese people off course, but others.

---

Lebanon is a crippled country devastated from years upon years of occupation and war (this is the worst bombardment in 25 years! That does mean 25 years ago, they were bombarded even worse than today). Approx 13% of the population democratically voted for Hizbollah representatives in their parliment. The Lebanese are ignored (and/or punished), the Hizbollah are nutured by Iran. And all thats happened with the invasion so far is the popular support for Hizbollah has soared and when the battle is over, the ravaged battle grounds will once again spawn more militants that cannot be controlled by a crippled gov't

Eddit to add:

quote:

---

I'm surprised Hezbollah has all these new weapons but no surface-to-air assets... or have they not pulled out they're big guns yet?

---

Apparently they have to some degree... Israel drone planes have been crashing into parts of Lebanon (including near several reporters) and they are assumed to have been shot down by Hizbollah forces.

It's hard to tell if they haven't pulled out these weapons yet, or if the media just hasn't reported them pulling these weapons out yet. Israel will likely squash news saying the Hizbollah are actually able to stand up against them.

[ 21 July 2006: Message edited by: Noise ]

[ 21 July 2006: Message edited by: Noise ]

[ 25 July 2006: Message edited by: clersal ]Got it back

[ 25 July 2006: Message edited by: clersal ]

Y'know when CNN is sympathizing with Lebanese, something must be bad.

quote:

---

We carry on into the unknown. The main coastal route south linking Beirut to the rest of the country is destroyed, so side mountain roads become the only option. Sometimes they are packed with vehicles, often they are no more than 3 to 4 feet wide.

The farther south we get, the more it looks like southern Lebanon is becoming a frontier of uncontrollable and unpredictable random death. Highways are crumpled, gas stations bombed, shops destroyed. Hezbollah posters begin to line the roads as the terrain changes from a countryside seen as a rare patch of relative tranquility in the Middle East to yet another combat zone.

....

Mohammed, an 18-year-old, is suddenly standing in the street. He says: "If I were old enough, I would fight for Hezbollah. We left our village to give them more room to fight the Israelis."

Less than a mile away, a 15-story building is blown apart. Cars below are destroyed.

A doctor emerges from a nearby apartment building. "Twenty people were killed," he says.

A nearby round comes screaming in. People scurry, but the doctor stays put. "If you can hear it," he says, "then you're OK."

---

[ 21 July 2006: Message edited by: Noise ]

quote:

---

Why do you watch CNN, Noise?

---

I watch as many sides of the story that I can... Mostly because I want to see what others are being told.

Can the Arab people in the region point to injustices and suffering committed by Israel in the past? You bet, and vice-versa. Yet since 2000 it's a fact that Israel has voluntarily withdrawn from South Lebanon and from Gaza. Now if the Left is correct, that should have produced goodwill from the Arab side. Instead those voluntary withdrawals only emboldened the Terrorist groups to continue their attacks on Israel. The terrorist groups now are getting the full war that they kept pushing.

quote:

---

The various Islamic paramilitary forces surrounding Israel do not accept even the notion of Jews living in the Middle East. What then is there for the Israeli government to talk about?

---

They can talk about ending the brutal occupation of Palestine, that creates hatred against them and feeds those same forces with recruits and financing.

quote:

---

Can the Arab people in the region point to injustices and suffering committed by Israel in the past?

---

They can, but more to the point they can point to injustices and suffering committed by Israel in the present, ongoing injustices that create hatred against them and lead to the strength of groups like Hezbollah.

quote:

---

Yet since 2000 it's a fact that Israel has voluntarily withdrawn from South Lebanon and from Gaza. Now if the Left is correct, that should have produced goodwill from the Arab side.

---

Except that half an oppression is still oppression. The occupation has not ended, nor has Israeli violence against its neighbours. If the Nazis had let half the jews out of their concentration camps, would they be remiss in expecting some goodwill, do you think?

quote:

---

Instead those voluntary withdrawals only emboldened the Terrorist groups to continue their attacks on Israel.

---

I don't see how. Remember that according to the leadership of Israel, this has all been triggered by the capturing of two Israeli soldiers in Lebanon. That is, operating in a foreign sovereign country. Hardly the boldest move that any group has taken against Israel before. I don't see the escalation, except on Israel's part.

quote:

---

The terrorist groups now are getting the full war that they kept pushing.

---

You may be correct in this, but the Israeli leadership is a rational agent with its own volition. Are they justified in giving these groups the war they want, and destroying Lebanon in the process? This will only increase the hatred against them, while causing an outrageous amount of misery and suffering. Why are they getting a free pass from you for playing right into the hands of their enemies, and murdering hundreds of innocents in the bargain?

quote:

---

Yes, civilians are dying, as they do in all wars.

---

Yeah, that's why we try to stop them from happening, and condemn those who launch into them in an indiscriminent and ham-fisted way. Your "Ah, what're you gonna do?" attitude helps no one. Certainly not the dying civilians.

quote:

---

Yet we will not see Beirut look like Dresden or Berlin did in 1945 after we were finished with them (and Germany had not even attacked the West at the beginning of WW2).

---

We don't know what Beirut will look like once Israel is finished with them (if they ever will be) so maybe you should reserve such judgements until we do.

quote:

---

Prime Minister Harper’s statement that the IDF’s response has been measured is correct, if you remember your history.

---

Look what happened when Spain announced its withdrawal from Iraq. It got hit by a terrorist attack.

And the attack on the U.N. headquarters in Baghdad, coordinating humanitarian aid for ordinary Iraqis. It got blown up , and along with it a devoted Brazilian U.N. head of operations.

And the Irish female cleric whose husband was Iraqi who'd spent years working on behalf of the poor in that country. She was abducted and murdered by the terrorists. It's hard to believe they didn't know who she was.

And one can go on and on and on.

The point is you can't deal logically with these people, with Hezbollah. You can only strike fear in their hearts for the reprecussions of their actions.

I agree that Iran, feeding arms to Hezbollah, is extremely dangerous and can only bolster Hezbollah's confidence in continuing on the road they've taken.

It may be the case that you can't deal logically with Hezbollah (although it would seem strange that they could get themselves elected to the Lebanese parliment if that were the case, but it's not impossible), but I'll tell you one thing you definitely can't do. You can't strike fear into their hearts with your penis-swinging shows of power. It would be funny if it weren't so sad that you can call these people fanatics and then completely ignore what that means. It means they can't be scared or cowed or bought or threatened.

There is only one way to stop fanatics and that is to stop the hatred that feeds them and swells their ranks. This can only be done by stopping the violence. These murderous attacks by Israel will only feed that hatred and make Hezbollah stronger with every bomb they drop. They are making their own enemies, refusing to learn from the lessons of similar mistake in the oh-so-recent past. Maybe we can't expect Hezbollah to act rationally, I don't know. But the real question on my mind is why can't we expect the Israeli leadership to act rationally? It should be obvious to anyone that more killing will lead to more killing, that the harder you hit them, the stronger they get. These fights can't be won with brute force, they will only be lost that way, while untold suffering, death, and misery paves the way for this abysmal defeat.

quote:

---

The Bush administration is rushing a delivery of precision-guided bombs to Israel, which requested the expedited shipment last week after beginning its air campaign against Hezbollah targets in Lebanon, American officials said Friday.

The decision to quickly ship the weapons to Israel was made with relatively little debate within the Bush administration, the officials said. Its disclosure threatens to anger Arab governments and others because of the appearance that the United States is actively aiding the Israeli bombing campaign in a way that could be compared to Iran’s efforts to arm and resupply Hezbollah.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zaklamont:
The point is you can't negotiate with fanatical ideologues because they don't follow the rules of logic.

---

Apparently.

quote:

---

And one can go on and on and on.

---

Obviously.

quote:

---

I'm a believer in the destablization of the current Iranian government as it's a medieval purveyor of terror, at home, and abroad.

---

quote:

---

The point is you can't negotiate with fanatical ideologues because they don't follow the rules of logic.

---

quote:

---

Look what happened when Spain announced its withdrawal from Iraq. It got hit by a terrorist attack.

---

quote:

---

Do racism, violence, and colonialism have the right to exist?
Does the stealing of land from Palestinians have the right to exist?
Does the bulldozing of Palestinian communities have the right to exist?
Does the daily humiliation of Palestinians have the right to exist?
Does state-sanctioned torture have the right to exist?
Does an apartheid system have the right to exist?
Does a state doctrine of disproportionate military reprisal have the right to exist?
Does killing hundreds of civilians and destroying the civil infrastructure of a country because two soldiers were kidnapped have the right to exist?

---

[ 22 July 2006: Message edited by: head ]

quote:

---

Israel's military response by air, land and sea to what it considered a provocation last week by Hezbollah militants is unfolding according to a plan finalized more than a year ago....More than a year ago, a senior Israeli army officer began giving PowerPoint presentations, on an off-the-record basis, to U.S. and other diplomats, journalists and think tanks, setting out the plan for the current operation in revealing detail. Under the ground rules of the briefings, the officer could not be identified.

---

Israel is destroying a country which had taken a generation to rebuild, and which now has a ruined economy, many innocent casualties and is again on the brink of civil war. This is not having anywhere close to the results Israel intends, as more Lebanese people are becoming sympathetic to Hezbollah and the cycle of violence continues.

Hezbollah
is also bent on an endless cycle of revenge. From an AP story seven years ago:

quote:

---

In a scathing speech to a rally of more than 1,000 supporters, Hizbollah leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah said peace deals between Arabs and Israel would not bring stability to the Middle East or legitimacy to the Jewish state.

"There is no solution to the conflict in this region except with the disappearance of Israel," he told the crowd. "Peace settlements will not change reality, which is that Israel is the enemy and that it will never be a neighbor or a nation.

"Peace will not wipe out the memory of the massacres it has committed ... And on this last day of the century, I promise Israel that it will see more suicide attacks, for we will write our history with blood," Nasrallah declared.

The rally, held outside Hizbollah’s headquarters in Beirut’s southern suburbs, followed the group’s first suicide attack against Israeli troops in years. It also comes three days before Lebanon’s political master Syria begins a second round of peace talks with Israel in the United States.

---

This is Hezbollah's ideology, that peace will only come through the destruction of Israel as a country. Both sides believe that their religion belongs in the holy land and that God is on their side.

It all seems ridiculous to an atheist like myself.
My question is that why are so many babblers only condemning the attacks on civilins by Israel, but not condemning both sides? Not all, but many babblers have spoken of Hezbollah as a if they were freedom fighters, or poor oppressed group can only afford small weapons. They are well-financed and well organized.

Enforce

quote:

---

Originally posted by EmmaG:

Enforce

UN Resolution 242 and UN Resolution 1559, not one or the other!

---

quote:

---

My opinion therefore-destroy them completely.

---

But how to do this? The experience in Iraq has shown undeniably that you can't destroy asymmetrical forces with bombs and tanks. The resulting pain, suffering and hatred just makes them stronger.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Phred:
I'm curious as to just how deep this whole situation can get... could this be the World War 3 that Nostradamus predicted would start in the middle east around this time?

So Israel keeps pushing towards Lebanon and decides that they are going to nail Syria and Iran while they're at it ... or Syria and Iran decide to go into Lebanon before that happens and start lending their full military power to even the playing field (seeing as Iran has jets and surface-to-air assets). What would happen next? Obviously the US would back Israel and so China would want to protect it's oil in Iran would back up Iran? Would Russia jump in? Who would the EU back up?

Just thinking out loud here.

---

I'm with Phred. Let's escape from the circular moral tediousness of the Israe-Hezbollah (which is really an Israel vs the whole Islamic world on some levels) struggle for a moment.

The key WW lll question I guess would be whether Russia and or China become involved. And now I'm going to make a pedantic little distinction: WW lll could mean an essentially regional conflict participated in by most or all of the world's major nations; or it could mean global nuclear holocaust, extinguishing human civilization. Particularly if we are talking about the latter kind of WW lll, I'd like to look closely at what might trigger it. Would Russia or China risk extermination to intervene in a US-Iran war, for example, when it seems clear they would benefit in the end by doing nothing, and watching the US once again bleed itself dry in a foolish and unwinnable war? Are there real escalation scenarios we should be worried about here that could result in the second and more permanent understanding of WWlll?

[ 22 July 2006: Message edited by: Brett Mann ]

quote:

---

THE British government issued a fierce condemnation of Israel's bombing campaign in Lebanon last night as world leaders desperately sought a last-minute deal to avert a ground war.

As Israeli tanks massed on the border and troops made sporadic raids on Lebanese villages, Foreign Office minister Kim Howells claimed Israel was not inflicting "surgical strikes" but waging war on "the entire Lebanese nation".

His outburst appeared to shift the British position, which has so far been to support Israel's action while cautioning restraint

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by EmmaG:
What would the appropriate time gap be? Why should Hezbollah wait to disarm and be part of a cease-fire?

---

I don't understand why Hezbollah should be disarmed.

I can entertain a case where both antagonists are disarmed. This would probably the best outcome for all the people of the region.

But talk of disarming an organization with a political presence and some support among the civilian population, where Hezbollah have apparently done some good work around social infrastructure, is a non-starter. It comes from a picture of the region which is too ideologically distorted to be useful for anything more than propaganda.

Let's face it: Hezbollah wouldn't be there if Lebanon shared its border with a peaceful nation.

War has a tendency to radicalize populations and the politics of any wartorn region often reflect this. The root cause is the war-making and the apparatus that supports it. When that recedes the politics also adopt a calmer tone.

In THAT regard the facts on the ground indicate Israel rather than its neighbours as a key player in the region along with Syria and Iran, and in terms of military threat Hezbollah are a mosquitoe against the IDF.

I regret that I have little or no insight into the mindset of the Israeli leadership as to why they have, at this particular time, chosen to follow this radical course of action.

If we consider the rhetorical background to the current offensive in which America presses Iran on its conjectured nuclear program, it is suggestive that Iranian-backed Hezbollah are attacked now.

The lack of a compelling international response to Israel's attack on Lebanon, a demand for its immediate cessation along with Hezbollah missile reprisal attacks on Israeli cities, and full reparations all round, is telling.

Lebanon has been calling for a ceasefire for days. How long would Hezbollah continue rocket attacks if Israel immediately withdrew?

The recent abduction of two Israeli soldiers seems to be related to current Israeli operations in Gaza. Here again there has been a recent escalation on the part of....Israel.

quote:

---

Originally posted by EmmaG:
What would the appropriate time gap be? Why should Hezbollah wait to disarm and be part of a cease-fire?

---

Resolution 242: Adopted 1967. Israel has been in non-compliance since.

Resolution 1559: Adopted 2004. Lebanon has been in non-compliance since.

Appropriate time gap for Lebanon to comply after Israel has complied: 2004 - 1967 = 37 years.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jacob Two-Two:

Huh? Are you saying that anything less than another Dreseden is a measured response? What kind of logic is this? Two of Israel's soldiers are captured while operating illegaly in foreign territory and Israel responds by laying waste to the country it was operating illegaly in. This is measured? What is disproportionate in your view? Seriously. Describe to me a response by Israel that you would consider excessive.

---

What I'm saying is that many of us are hypocrites in criticizing Israel while we sit here and enjoy the peace we earned during WW2 when we targeted German civilians for over 5 years.

Oh by the way, according to the BBC (not a particular fan of Israel) this conflict started when:

"Hezbollah fighters based in southern Lebanon launch Katyusha rockets across the border with Israel, targeting the town of Shlomi and outposts in the Shebaa Farms area. In a cross-border raid, guerrillas seize two Israeli soldiers before retreating back into Lebanon" Read for yourself at:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5179434.stm

So Israel did not "operate illegally in foreign territory" when they were attacked, as you say. Please stop passing around the mis-information. If Israel really wanted to lay waste to Lebanon, Tens of thousands would be dead, not approx 300 civilians.

What would be excessive in my view? I think your asking that from the point of view that this current conflict is part of the so-called "cycle of violence", that Israel is just trying to send a message and or retaliate for the killing and kidnapping of Israeli solders. If that is your view, then I can understand the feelings of injustice.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stockholm:
I believe resolution 242 also calls for recosgnition of the state of Israel. i guess someone forgot to tell that to iran and Syria.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Taylor_Riel:

What is actually occurring in the region is that Israel (with the support of at least Australia, Canada and the United States of America) is addressing Iran's growing influence in the region. From that strategic viewpoint, excessive force would include first use of weapons of mass destruction and specifically targeting civilians (not including collateral damage).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by unionist:

I don't follow you. Israel should wait until Iran develops nuclear weapons before using its own? Israel should be the second to use weapons of mass destruction? Obviously, Israel's mere possession of nuclear weapons for upwards of 30 years now has not deterred anyone from anything. Explain please why a first strike would not be effective -- cf. Israel's successful first-strike bombing raid and destruction of the Osirak nuclear plant near Baghdad in 1981?

---

Man, are you listening? I didn't say Israel should not strike first, but that such a strike should not involve weapons of mass destruction.

The Osirak strike in '81 was a conventional strike, and highly effective.

Where do the Zinoists develop all this ignorance about the history of the country they are trying to promote:

Interesting thing about the Israeli wars most Zionists are unaware of:

quote:

---

"Our other wars were not without an alternative. In November 1956 we had a choice. The reason for going to war then was the need to destroy the fedayeen, who did not represent a danger to the existence of the state. Thus we went off to the Sinai campaign. At that time we conquered most of the Sinai Peninsula and reached Sharm el Sheikh. Actually, we accepted and submitted to an American dictate, mainly regarding the Gaza Strip (which Ben-Gurion called 'the liberated portion of the homeland'). John Foster Dulles, the then-secretary of state, promised Ben-Gurion that an Egyptian army would not return to Gaza. The Egyptian army did enter Gaza .... After 1957, Israel had to wait 10 full years for its flag to fly again over that liberated portion of the homeland.

"In June 1967, we again had a choice. The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him. This was a war of self-defense in the noblest sense of the term. The Government of National Unity then established decided unanimously: we will take the initiative and attack the enemy, drive him back, and thus assure the security of Israel and the future of the nation.

"As for the Operation Peace for Galilee [the invasion of Lebanon], it does not really belong to the category of wars of no alternative. We could have gone on seeing our civilians injured in Metulla or Qiryat Shimona or Nahariya. We could have gone on countering those killed by explosive charges left in a Jerusalem supermarket, or a Petah Tikvah bus stop. All the orders to carry out these acts of murder and sabotage came from Beirut .... True, such actions were not a threat to the existence of the state. But they did threaten the lives of civilians. whose numbers we cannot estimate, day after day, week after week, month after month....

---

Menachme Begin -- Israeli War Callege speech

Of course the real message for Zionists is actually only this: "We must be honest with ourselves." This because the amount of double talk and preverication that is regularly diseminated by ardent Zionists, only serves to make Israel look bad.

At least Benny Morris can be respected for his candour:

quote:

---

think he [Ben Gurion] made a serious historical mistake in 1948. Even though he understood the demographic issue and the need to establish a Jewish state without a large Arab minority, he got cold feet during the war. In the end, he faltered. If he was already engaged in expulsion, maybe he should have done a complete job. [...] my feeling is that this place would be quieter and know less suffering if the matter had been resolved once and for all. If Ben-Gurion had carried out a large expulsion and cleansed the whole country -- the whole Land of Israel, as far as the Jordan River. If he had carried out a full expulsion -- rather than a partial one -- he would have stabilized the State of Israel for generations."

---

Benny Morris -- Historian

If North American Zionists had even half the candour of Begin, and Morris, and numerous other Israelis we would not be regaled with these embarrassing arguments about historically meaningless subjects, such as the ethical signifigance of the showing of pictures war dead, as if we were engaged in some arcane 12th century debate about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

[ 22 July 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cueball:
Yes, Lebanon 1982 was merely a side show!
[ 22 July 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

---

Yea, I wondered if someone might bring that up. Are you seriously comparing the '67 and '73 wars (which kept increasing in scale and scope)and involved contact between major mechanized army’s on BOTH SIDES to '82 in which the IDF fought with the PLO?

quote:

---

What I'm saying is that many of us are hypocrites in criticizing Israel while we sit here and enjoy the peace we earned during WW2 when we targeted German civilians for over 5 years.

---

Well then, your history needs serious work, as well as your military knowledge. The bombing of Dresden was a massive war crime that did nothing at all to reduce Germany's capacity to wage war, nor did it affect their willingness to do so, since it was a fascist state ruled by nutcases. They didn't care that their people were dying. They did, however, retaliate by bombing London, leading to many more senseless deaths, but similarly didn't affect Britain's ability to fight back one iota. Bombing civilians is stupid and criminal and has never won a war. It was the ground invasions, as it always is, that won WW2.

quote:

---

So Israel did not "operate illegally in foreign territory" when they were attacked, as you say. Please stop passing around the mis-information.

---

Well, unsurprisingly, Hezbollah says they were in Lebanon, and also unsurprisingly, Israel says they weren't (I assume the BCC got their info from Israel). What is surprising is that the Lebanese police force agrees with Hezbollah. There may be a reason for that, but I'm inclined to believe them in the absence of any clear motive on their part for lying. At the very least, you are no more justified in saying Israel definitely wasn't in foreign territory than I am in saying they were. Since you say the BBC is "no friend of Israel" (why should a news service be anyone's friend?) I assume you are often sceptical of their reporting, except, it seems, when it matches your narrative.

quote:

---

If Israel really wanted to lay waste to Lebanon, Tens of thousands would be dead, not approx 300 civilians.

---

No, that's what would be the case if Israel wanted to kill everyone in the country. They have, in fact, already laid waste to Lebanon by destroying it's infrastructure, including its roads, airports, hospitals, and power stations, and deliberately so. This is "laying waste" in my opinion.

quote:

---

What would be excessive in my view? I think your asking that from the point of view that this current conflict is part of the so-called "cycle of violence", that Israel is just trying to send a message and or retaliate for the killing and kidnapping of Israeli solders. If that is your view, then I can understand the feelings of injustice.

---

Well, that's good to know, because this is Israel's stated justification for it's actions, so my feelings of injustice are vindicated, it seems.

quote:

---

What is actually occurring in the region is that Israel (with the support of at least Australia, Canada and the United States of America) is addressing Iran's growing influence in the region.

---

Oh, so Israel is lying to everybody about its real goals. That puts my mind at ease. I can't imagine how you think this makes it all more rational, though. Iran has never attacked Israel, ever. So Israel is demolishing an entire country and murdering hundreds of people to do nothing more than address influence, and this seems logical to you. Has it occured to you that such concepts are highly subjective and rely on shadowy intelligence that may or may not be accurate (think Iraq's WMD here)? By giving the nod to this, you are basically saying that Israel can invade and destroy any country it wants, as long as it thinks Iran is gaining too much influence there. Will other countries get this same leeway or is it just Israel? Seriously, I'd like an answer to this question. All countries want to check the influence of their rivals. Can we allow them to invade and destroy whenever they feel influence is getting excessive? Can you imagine the death and suffering, the sheer carnage that such a world would produce? Like many apologists for aggression, you seem to think you can invent certain rules for one side and expect that the other side won't play by those same rules. This never happens. Setting a precedent of checking influence by invasion and destruction is a recipe for global ruin.

Besides, as I have written ad nauseum, it should be clear by the ample evidence of Israel's experiences and the US's in Iraq, that fighting asymmetrical forces with brute force is a losing stretegy. It causes great death, misery and suffering, but only makes your opponent stronger, as they thrive in the chaos you create and feed off the hatred you sow. So if, as you claim, Iran is weilding influence in the region through Hezbollah, then Israel is actually increasing Iran's influence, because it's actions will only strengthen them, while devestating the Lebanese government's capacity to do the real, necessary work to eradicate them. Now that the ground invasion is underway, the Lebanese army and Hezbollah will be forced to fight side by side, for Christ's sake!

Personally, I think Iran is certainly supporting Hezbollah, but just like the US support for Bin Laden and his crew in Afghanistan, it doesn't necessarily add up to increased influence for them. They are just a tool to be used, and one that could turn around to bite them in the ass in a similar fashion. Hezbollah has its own motivations and reasons for its actions. They'll take Irans weapons and money, but that doesn't mean that they'll take their orders.

quote:

---

From that strategic viewpoint, excessive force would include first use of weapons of mass destruction and specifically targeting civilians (not including collateral damage).

---

If civilians aren't being specifically targetting then the Israeli military has some piss-poor aim, because they've killed almost nothing but civilians. But for my money, destroying a country's infrastructure is targetting its civilians. They need these things to survive. Bombs are falling all around them but they can't escape because transportation is devastated. Thousands are injured but there are no hospitals to take them in. Who knows how many will die because there is no clean water or power?

quote:

---

This war must be stopped now and immediately. From the start it was unnecessary, even if its excuse was justified, and now is the time to end it. Every day raises its price for no reason, taking a toll in blood that gives Israel nothing tangible in return. This is a good time to stop the war because both sides can claim they won: Israel harmed Hezbollah and Hezbollah harmed Israel. History shows that no situation is better for reaching an arrangement.

. . . .

The fact that George Bush and Tony Blair are cheering Israel might be consolation for Ehud Olmert and the media in Israel, but it is not enough to persuade millions of TV viewers who see the images of destruction and devastation, most of which are not shown to Israeli audiences. The world sees entire neighborhoods that have been destroyed, hundreds of thousands of refugees fleeing in panic, homeless, and hundreds of civilians dead and wounded including many children who have nothing to do with Hezbollah.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Taylor_Riel:

Man, are you listening? I didn't say Israel should not strike first, but that such a strike should not involve weapons of mass destruction.

---

quote:

---

The day ended in Tyre as it began, with a desperate cry of grief.

"Where's my father? Where's my father?" asked Mahmoud Srour, an 8-year-old whose face was burned beyond recognition after an Israeli missile struck the family's car Sunday. His mother, Nouhad, lurched toward his hospital bed, her eyes welling with tears.

"Is he coming?" he asked her.

"Don't worry about your father," she said, her words broken by sobs.

Barely conscious, bewildered, he lay with his eyes almost swollen shut. His head lolled toward her. A whisper followed.

"Don't cry, mother," he told her.

Mahmoud's father, Mohammed, was dead. An Israeli missile had struck their green Mercedes as they fled the southern town of Mansuri, where the family had been vacationing. The boy's uncle, Darwish Mudaihli, was dead, too. The bodies were left in the burning car. Mahmoud's sister Mariam, 8 months old, lay next to him, staring at the ceiling with a Donald Duck pacifier in her mouth. Her eyes were open but lifeless, a stare that suggested having seen too much. Her hair was singed, her face slightly burned. Blisters swelled the tiny fingers on her left hand to twice their size. In other beds of Najm Hospital were their other brothers, 13-year-old Ali and 15-year-old Ahmed.

---

The Israeli ship that was attacked for example... At first it was thought to be an unmanned aircraft that slammed into the deck, but thats because nobody was aware of the Hizbollah's arsenal. The 'unmanned' aircraft was actually the 7 meter long C208 missile, produced in Iran. The 2 big peices of this are the Israeli's assumed (it's always been this way) that the Hizbollah lacked the means to attack Iraeli ships... Which is a big underestimation of Hizbollah arms. 2nd, this 20 ft long missile requires a pretty large launching area... Something that Israel had felt they could find and destroy prior to launch. So it means not only does Hizbollah have weapons of this capability, but also has the ability to hide them from Israel. When it was launched, Nasrallah had come onto the airwaves and declared that he would strike a ship... Soon after he did. Now he continues to insist that there are many other surprises in his arsenal. If Iran ever did managed to make a nuclear device, this could be scary.

The big question is how much of an impact has 13 days of bombardment had upon the Hizbollah fighting force? If you track by Israel's terms... around 50%. If you go by Hizbollah and other Arab sources, they suggest the number is no more than 10%. Stark contrast their hey?

A conventional fighting force attacking guerilla's is traditionally a no brainer... The Guerillas have little to no hope of fending off such an onslaught. However, Hizbollah are reporting another 5 Israeli tanks have been disabled in an ambush, which adds to the growing mechanized casuatly list (Which traditionally speaking should be 1-2 tanks through the entire invasion, mostly from roadside bombs). All these abilities are starting to hit home... Hizbollah are not the guerilla force they used to be. The now are a large, well organized, well equipped, and quite potentially a 'conventional' fighting force... But thats not to understate their extremely indepth knowledge of the terrain and ability to use guerilla warfare tactics with a more conventional list of armaments.

With the above in mind... I'm begining to wonder how accurate, if at all, the Israeli intell on Hizbollah truely is. Has the Hizbollah crossed the line from a Guerilla force into the grounds of a conventional military capable of standing up to invaders? My read says yes... And the Israeli military is going to be in for heavy fighting and quite likely heavy casualties, especially if Israeli soldiers enter the cave framework to hunt for them. BBC has the best article defining the 2 sides of the Lebanese gov't (and also gives pretty good insite as to why Lebanon hasn't tried to disarm Hizbollah).

Just another example of media bias and how hard it is to track the war... This headline can be found at pretty close to any media outlet:

quote:

---

An Israeli helicopter crashes in northern Israel. An army spokesman blames technical failure but Hezbollah reportedly claims it has been shot down.

---

The Hizbollah (I'll repeat this over and over again) are assumed to be unable to fight Israeli air superiority and Israel will stand by this claim and fight for it. I'm really curious what the actual truth on this is (but doubtful I'll ever know). From the Israeli media side, it's pretty important to stress the Hizbollah's inability to take out a helicopter, while reversely it is quite advatageous to the Hizbollah to say 'Yes we can'.

quote:

---

I'm begining to wonder how much Israel has under estimated Hizbollah capabilities now. Since 2000, the Hizbollah have really matured from a underground fighting force to a more conventional military capable of standing up to any invader on it's home soils.

---

Apparently,Hezbollah is composed of older,mature men.Many of them are university educated and they enjoy the support of their community.

I don't know about their conventional capability but they may well have the technical capability (with the assistance of Iranian Revolutionary Guards) to generate a very costly invasion for Israel.

quote:

---

I don't know about their conventional capability but they may well have the technical capability (with the assistance of Iranian Revolutionary Guards) to generate a very costly invasion for Israel.

---

The major differences between guerilla and conventional warfare is mainly organizational and equipment available. Hizbollah in their early years made suicide bombers one the battlefiled quite popular... The main reason for this was the Hizbollah lacked any other weapons and the only means of combatting the much better equipped Israeli army was to blow yourself up. Outside of that, there was little they could do on a battlefield.

This however has changed... The 6 year gap since the last major conflict has allowed the Hizbollah to make the orginizational leap and gather the equipment needed. They are now assumed to have chains of command setup with each section capable of acting independantly as required with capable field generals... Long story short is they are capable as acting as an organized conventional army, plus being able to utilize guerilla tactics on their own terrain. The resulting force (as estimated by a couple news sources, bbc most notably) is the 4th largest military force within the Middle East area and is quite capable of combatting Isreali troops. It's important to note that although Israel launched the first volley after the kidnappings, it was the Hizbollah who announced open warfare first... An obvious indicator to the readiness of the Hizbollah.

Ontop of these organizational changes, the equipment used is now far superior then they had in the past... Most notibly using guns/long arms instead of suicide bombers on the battlefield. It's becoming more and more apparent why lebanon wasn't able to disarm Hizbollah... Had the Lebanese gov't tried, Hizbollah would have taken them down.

Still waiting for the Lebanese standing army and their involvement in this... I haven't found a descision made as of yet, but the threat was definately made.

She landed in Lebanon and adressed the following:

quote:

---

"I am obviously here because we are deeply concerned about the Lebanese people and what they are enduring," Rice said in Beirut. "We are talking about the humanitarian situation, and we are also talking about a durable way to end the violence.

"President Bush wanted this to be my first stop -- here in Lebanon -- to express our desire to urgently find conditions in which we can end the violence and make life better for the Lebanese people."

---

When asked why Condi's visit was 13 days after the fighting first broke out, she replied 'It is in our best interest to allow Israel to cripple Lebanon for nearly 2 weeks before we could be bothered enough to pretend to care'

Seriously, I think it's an american pipe dream if they think they have any influence in this region to halt the fighting... And it's the international communities pipe dream if they think the current USian administration doesn't support the current war efforts. Infact, tis a great thing as the Lebanon conflict turns daily Iraqi bombings and US military casualties into side stories that nobody notices ^^

Condi's visit went as well as could be expected... Pretty much just a media campaign for her to flap her yap about (apparently some of the meetings went horribly and they press was never informed as to what happened). US will not provide any pressure to the Israeli's to have them stop or slow their attacks... Infact they are speeding the delivery of new guided bombs instead (So the last thing a Lebanese citizen gets to see is 'Made in America' before their homes are bombed ^^). Though I get the feeling part of the motiviation behind the USian response here includes the acknowledgment that even if they wanted to step in, they couldn't. The contacts and lines just aren't there (Read as 'Bush admin isolates US vs the world'). Important to note, Condi completely snubbed the Syrians (the Syrians were inviting and trying to get Condi to go to them)... Her response appears to be a snub + blaming them for not doing enough. Get the feeling they don't want this conflict to be resolved?

The BBC doesn't pull punches when it comes to Rice either:

quote:

---

It's the reason why Washington is so reluctant to criticise Israel's military operations. The Bush administration see the Israeli offensive on Hezbollah in the context of its two main foreign policy goals - winning the war on terror and spreading democracy

---

Mind you I disagree with that... The tactics used in Lebanon are distablizing a young democracy and very much increases the chance of Lebanese uniting under a Hizbollah banner... Atleast more so than it will promote democracy. This view of course, is stated by the same BBC artilce:

quote:

---

Others would argue that fighting a war on terror only recruits more terrorists and spreads resentment rather than encouraging democracy to flourish. But this argument does not seem to "compute" with the US administration.

---

It's interesting to note Condi's strong message:

quote:

---

She said: "It is time for a new Middle East, it is time to say to those who do not want a different kind of Middle East that we will prevail; they will not."

---

By new and different kind of Middle East, Condi is refferring to one that'll act submissive to the Americans and give them all their oil already ^^. The insistance the American leaders are now putting on a 'New Middle East' is making me wonder what exactly the plan on changing (or trying to change) to make a 'new middle east', especially when the method of change is war, destruction, and loss of innocent lives.

quote:

---

CBC: She reiterated Washington's position that it wouldn't press Israel for a quick ceasefire until there were conditions for a lasting peace.

"We want to end the violence so that innocent people can return to a free life. We need to do that in a way that is enduring and that means that we cannot return to a status quo," said Rice.

---

No pressure on Israel to stop bombing. Business as usual.

Yea, we "cannot return to a status quo" before Israel's latest bombing campaign. Now, the bombing of Lebanon is normal. To stop the bombing requires..."conditions".

Israel to Lebanon: Now do you understand, Lebanon? NO? Well, then, more bombing for you.

[ 26 July 2006: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

Israel and the Irony of UN Resolutions

quote:

---

The world community is now approaching four decades since the passage of U.N. 242. And during those four decades, the Israelis have continued to obfuscate, evade, and even deny the plain wording of the resolution. During those four decades they have continued their military occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. During those four decades, they have continued their occupation and outright theft of Palestinian land through the construction of dozens of settlements. Over the past couple of years, the Israelis have been building a wall that will, de facto, make permanent their taking of large swaths of Palestinian land. The wall subverts the clear intention of U.N. 242....

---

quote:

---

We want to end the violence so that innocent people can return to a free life

---

quote:

---

We need to destroy Lebanon in order to save it.

---

quote:

---

Four United Nations peacekeepers have been killed in an Israeli air strike on an observation post in southern Lebanon, the UN has said.

A bomb struck the post occupied by the peacekeepers of the Unifil force in the Khiam area, it said.

UN Secretary General Kofi Annan said he was "shocked" at the "apparently deliberate targeting" of the post.

---

"With the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, Major Hess-von Kruedner is the only Canadian serving as a United Nations Military Observer in Lebanon. He is stationed at the UN base about 10 kilometres from where the Syrian, Lebanese and Israeli borders meet. The UN's mission there is to report ceasefire violations."

Major Hess-von Kruedner is one of the few Canadian Military Officers in the area.

[ 25 July 2006: Message edited by: Webgear ]

quote:

---

The UN in Lebanon says the Israeli air force destroyed the observer post, in which four military observers were sheltering.

It said the four, from Austria, Canada, China and Finland, had taken shelter in a bunker under the post after it was earlier shelled 14 times by Israeli artillery.

A rescue team was also shelled as it tried to clear the rubble.

"I am shocked and deeply distressed by the apparently deliberate targeting by Israeli Defence Forces of a UN Observer post in southern Lebanon," Mr Annan said in a statement from Rome.

---

Although BBC and CBC TV are saying the nationalities of the 4 dead are unconfirmed at this point.

257 Total Fatalities

quote:

---

"We want to end the violence so that innocent people can return to a free life. We need to do that in a way that is enduring and that means that we cannot return to a status quo," said Rice.

---

"I wanted to stop hitting her, but she kept opening her mouth."

'When will the Lebanese army get involved and can we count on them to engage the Hizbollah'

the correspondants answer I missed cause I was rolling around on the floor laughing. The Lebanese army has a website that refers to the Hizbollah as part of their military wing resisting an invasion. If the Lebanese army got involved, they would attack Israel without much question (Sheer ignorance of this reporter... Assuming the Lebanese army would engage them 'evil arab terrorists' instead).

It's important to note the role Hizbollah has within Lebanon defensive capabilities... The Lebanese army would last a matter of minutes, mebbe an hour or so, if they directly engaged Israeli forces. Because of this inability to defend themselves on a conventional level, guerilla warfare is used... This guerilla warfare arm of Lebanon is the Hizbollah. The Hizbollah (and the Lebanese conventional armies soldiers know this) is the primary defence of Lebanon. With that in mind, how can one assume the Lebanese army would be chomping at the bit to attack Hizbollah?

Different note... Israel has pretty much taken Bint Jbiel, but not before taking several casulaties (14 by Hizbollah, 13 by IDF). The Israeli's are toting this as a major victory crippling and dividing Hizbollah (and a morale victory). The pro-Israeli CNN even disputes this atleast... The fall of Bint Jbiel is symbolic at most and will have absolutely no impact on Hizbollah capabilities (the Israeli's continue to fight Guerillas using conventional tactics).

Nasrallah was back in the media as well, threatening increasing the scope of his attacks. It's debateable if he is referring to increased range and hitting target the Tel Aviv, or if they are thretening to increase the size of the volley's hitting Haifa. Last time he threatened this, he said he'd go after a naval vessel and sure enough an Israeli warship was hit by a C208 missile. Of course, it's a valueable peice of imagery for Nasrallah if every threat he makes is carried out in full. Rumours of the Zelzal missiles making appearances are buzzin on a few blogs.

Added:

Hizbollah tactics under scrutiny... Right now the working assumption is they are trying to bait Israel into coming further into Hizbollah territory. The attack Nasrallah referred to could potentially be in reference to an assault of the IDF assault force currently in Lebanon. These baiting tactics would extend and stretch Israeli supply lines, and it's those supply lines that could come under attack.

The number of options that Nasrallah is leaving open and the degree he keeps every side guessing is a good portion of why hes such a renowned guerilla tactician... Keep your enemy guessing

[ 26 July 2006: Message edited by: Noise ]

It is a sad day when we see young people becoming more radicalised as they see this overwhelming use of force used against the Lebanese people and all of this going out on Al Jazeera. Radicalising Lebanon can't be a good thing.

Bint Jbiel apparently hasn't been taken after all. The region continues to see intensive fighting, despite Israel pretty much claiming vicotry earlier yesterday... Giving more credibility to the capabilities of the Hizbollah within the region, if they are capable of turning back Israeli fighters, it will be a huge turning point and a descision point for the Israeli army. Unfortunately Israel is a lil stuck with this village where if they hold it, they do little to hinder Hizbollah activities and have troops committed well within Lebanese boundaries to hold it... Or if they lose it, it'll be a morale blow to the Israeli troops and proof that Hizbollah has the capacity to hold their own ground against a militarily stronger opponent.

quote:

---

Does anyone think that Hezbullah is becoming popular with many young people in the Middle East given that they alone are seen as standing up to the US and Israel. Dignity matters to every nation.

---

Might wanna note that they have the support of some 12-15% of lebanezse citizens prior to the invasion (around 400-500 thousand peoples) and this number has likely doubled since the invasion... So they already have pretty vast support within their own nation (and Israels military policy is simply increasing support for Hizbollah by the day). The Lebanese army (the one that keeps being told to disarm Hizbollah) has quite a few Hizbollah suporters within it's ranks as well.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2006/07/27/toronto-rally-israel.html

quote:

---

Some of the loudest applause of the night erupted for Harper, who early in the conflict defended the response of Israel, which began daily air strikes in Lebanon as well as sending in troops and erecting a naval blockade.

Harper evoked controversy when he said Israel had the right to defend itself and called its response "measured."

One rally volunteer said Toronto's Jewish community raised $6 million in emergency funds for Israel in a matter of 15 minutes. They set a goal to raise $20 million.

---

quote:

---

Six million dollars? I doubt that the participants at the pro-Lebanon rally that I attended in Vancouver on Saturday could have raised nearly so much money. I suspect that the class divide between imperialists and anti-imperialists is brutally stark.

---

Since this is just the Canadian community I will only relate to the Canadian community. And I can’t begin to comprehend what a beautiful world we would be living in if the rest of the Arab world would care about there so called brethren the same way the a large section of the Jewish Diaspora does.
If you took the top 10 percentile by earning in the Canadian Arab or Middle Eastern community and they each donated about 1000 dollars which probably isn’t even 0.0001% of their income than you probably would already have 10 times that amount.

You can’t criticize the Jews for caring more for their own or being better organized. The Arab community could have this easily if they only wanted and cared.

Further more the American were the first to send a 30 million dollar aid package to Lebanon lets see who follows suite.
30 Million

[ 27 July 2006: Message edited by: Free duh? ]

Hizbollah funding info:

There was a comment in one of these threads (sorry I cannot remember who from, nor which thread) that mentioned what would happen if Syria and Iran completely cut off funding to Hizbollah, what exactly would happen to Hizbollah? With funds running dry, would they survive or be crippled in a matter of days?

I honestly can't beleive I'm about to say this.. hehe. Remember back when there was a push of 'Piracy and drugs fund terrorism'? Turns out that at very least, it does fund Hizbollah (occasionally). Hizbollah has a decently large amount of established infrastructure across the world, include fund raisers in the Americas (and quite possibly Canada). If Hizbollah needed funds, they could send 1000 loyalists off to north america and have them work misc jobs and send all the funds they make home. Set them up making 10-15$ an hour... They live off half and send the rest home.

Though aboves example is what the more unskilled are capable of doing. If you want big money in a short time frame... What exactly can be used? 2 options, the first is purchasing bulk copyrighted material from Chinese factories, smuggle them in and sell for much mroe than the cheap purchase price (send all profits back home to Hizbollah). So it's possible that purchasing pirated music or DVD's in this manner does fund Hizbollah (Though I would suggest that it's as likely that the funds gained in this manner are to build schools/hospitals, other social services, and rebuild roads as it would be that these funds were used for terror)

quote:

---

The keynote speaker at the event was retired major-general Lewis MacKenzie, who spent 33 years in the Canadian military and commanded ground troops in a number of dangerous places including the Gaza Strip.

MacKenzie said he participated in the event because of his fondness for the region and his opposition of Hezbollah, which is listed as a terrorist organization in Canada.

He said that, if he was asked, he would also attend a rally for Lebanon.

---