The article was sent to Counterpunch, ZNet, Common Dreams, Alternet and a few other smaller web sites but none have published it. Robert Jensen placed it at this self-publishing website.

http://www.opednews.com/articles/life_a_gail_din_050928_pornography_is_a_lef.htm

It is also posted at the blog of Stan Goff and an interesting discussion is beginning.
http://stangoff.com/?p=190#comments

Edited to add: audra, you could have asked for proof I had Bob & Gail's permission, could have given me the benefit of the doubt that I am not infringing copyright before deciding to delete the article but you didn't, and I think that's unfair.

[ 01 October 2005: Message edited by: Thalia ]

quote:

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I sort of wondered why audra edited the article citing copyright troubles even though Thalia had explained that to Hephaestion.

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My guess would be that, absent any real proof, she erred on the side of caution.

[ 01 October 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]

i wonder if this time, we should lay out the rules before taking this discussion any further. i, for one, have no problem with men participating in the feminism forum. in fact, i would encourage it because it's my way of helping men understand the feminist perspective - although the differences in feminist perspective between some of the women in babble probably doesn't help! to me, feminism is not at all about seperating the genders. it's more about unity, and if us womyn feminists can make allies of men, then more power to us.

also, the title of this article addresses everybody on the left. not just women. but thalia, by posting it in the feminism forum, perhaps, it would be helpful if you could be more specific on exactly what kind of a discussion you are looking for here. what points do you want to address? for example, do you want to talk about the role of left-leaning women feminists in fighting/changing pornography, or the role of the left in this issue?

personally, i think the article is very well-written. it's compelling and made for good reading. there is a lot of truth in the article. however, i take issue with its dictatorial stance. i also take issue with the broad sweeping generalizations that it makes by speaking for all women who choose to enter the porn business and for those women who genuinely enjoy S&M, and the broad sweeping generalizations of the left. it has been a while since i read the article, and will have to read it again for specifics. but the sense i got from it is that nobody on the left cares about the abuse of women in the porn industry, and that porn is bad and it must go, and if anybody's a feminist, s/he must agree with us. yes, sexism exists in porn, but there is also porn without sexism. there isn't enough of it, but there can be more. i don't think the solution is to eradicate porn, or else you'll be fighting a losing battle. to me, the solution would be to find a way to eradicate sexism and racism within the porn industry. that's another issue i have with the article. it offered absolutely no solutions. just never-ending dictatorial criticism. for such a long article, it could have spent at least a paragraph or two outlining possible solutions and alternatives. any piece of writing that critiques, but offers no solutions whatsoever, is not well thought-out in my opinion.

re: copyright - i'm not trying to pick on you, thalia, but just because it has become an issue in this case, and i'm asking because i don't know - even if you have permission to distribute far and wide, isn't it generally considered bad practice to reproduce an entire article?

[ 01 October 2005: Message edited by: ephemeral ]

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Originally posted by jeff house:
Thalia REALLY likes this article! it's about the third place she's posted it!

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Once again, it's something I wish I had a link to and I did try Google, plus I searched the index of Rosemary's autobiogarphy Being Brown. There was no reference there, I think partly because her autobiography tended to concentrate on her parliamentary political career, leadership conventions, and the like.

However, I do distinctly recall that in the early 1980s when the MacKinnon Dworkin ordinances and the feminist ant-pornography movements were at the peak, that Rosemary publicly announced that she was cancelling her membership in the BC Civil Liberties Union because she differed so strongly with their very liberal approach to porn of all kinds, save child porn.

I searched the BCCLU website for any mention of this episode and found none. However, I did Email them (using their packaged 'send-us-a-message feature, so who knows if there will ever be a reply) asking if they had any record of Rosemary Brown cancelling her membership because of differences over porn.

I did find links to three BCCLU pronouncements on the issue of porn, one from 1963, one from 1978, the last from 1985:

Pornography and obscenity 1963

Comments on proposed amendments to the Criminal Code of Canada (Portions dealing with pornography) August 1978

Pornography: Response to Fraser Committee recommendations 1985

You may wish to note that in the first two of these pronouncements the words "feminist" and "women" make absolutely no appearance whatsover. In the last of them, this is in 1985, the word "feminist" is still non-existent. The word "women" does appear however, if only to be dismissed:

"Uncontroversially, pornography depicts women as sexual objects. But this is not something which, in itself, adversely affects the status of women; that is done only if the depictions produce or reinforce certain attitudes toward women, and those attitudes result in women being treated as second class citizens."

BCCLA Reply send Oct 3:

Because the Association's records have been taken off site and archived a number of years ago, we have limited access to material relating to the resignation of Rosemary Brown. Perhaps you could provide us with the reason you require this information and what you plan to do with it.
Personally, I have been the membership secretary with the BCCLA since 1976 and do not recall her that she was a long time member, but do recall that she was an Honourary Director for a short period of time and resigned for the reasons you mentioned.

Membership Secretary.

My message to the BCCLA
Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 4:20 PM
Subject: Comments to BCCLA

ROSEMARY BROWN AND BCCLA POSITION ON PORNOGRAPHY

I have searched the BCCLA website and others for a reference to an event concerning the late Rosemary Brown, former BC MLA. I believe that
at some point in the years 1980 to 1985 she publicly renounced a membership in the BCCLA that she had held for many years because she did not agree with the BCCLA's "liberal" position on pornography.

Can you send me any material relating to this event, or is my memory faulty?

[ 07 October 2005: Message edited by: MasterDebator ]

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Personally, I have been the membership secretary with the BCCLA since 1976 and do not recall her that she was a long time member, but do recall that she was an Honourary Director for a short period of time and resigned for the reasons you mentioned.

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It seems Master Debater is right that Rosemary Brown quit the BCCLA due to its more liberal position on pornography.

Still, I knew Rosemary Brown during the last years of her life. I met her both formally and informally many times. She was definitely not an anti-pornography zealot.

It may be, though, that she was less liberal than I am on the question. To that extent, MasterDebater is right.

If you wanna see pictures of me and Rosemary Brown in a non-offical capacity, here's the place:

quote:

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Originally posted by jeff house:
It seems Master Debater is right that Rosemary Brown quit the BCCLA due to its more liberal position on pornography.

Still, I knew Rosemary Brown during the last years of her life. I met her both formally and informally many times. She was definitely not an anti-pornography zealot.

It may be, though, that she was less liberal than I am on the question. To that extent, MasterDebater is right.

If you wanna see pictures of me and Rosemary Brown in a non-offical capacity, here's the place:

http://www.caw.ca/whatwedo/socialjusticefund/projects/columbain_index.asp

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