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Author Topic: Should Georgian leader Saakashvili face a War Crimes Tribunal?
N.Beltov
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posted 12 August 2008 06:47 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This is not "number V" in the threads about the Georgian attack on South Ossetia. This is a thread about what atrocities were carried out by the Georgians ... and whether their crimes should be prosecuted in The Hague at the International Criminal Court.

Or would another venue be more appropriate?

So, first things first. What are the claims?


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N.Beltov
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posted 12 August 2008 06:54 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
1. OK, over here we have reports of Georgian tanks running people down and killing them. There is also the horrific report of Georgian troops trapping their victims in a 10th-century orthodox church and burning them alive ...

quote:
Georgian troops burned down a 10th century Orthodox church while terrified civilians perished inside. The agency quotes eyewitness accounts of the atrocity after all-out fighting in Khetagurovo, a small village near the republic’s capital Tskhinvali.

2. Initial reports of the attack late last week included around a dozen Russian peacekeepers killed, along with 1,6000 - 2,000 Ossetian civilians. 30,000 Ossetians have fled for their lives into North Ossetia.


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N.Beltov
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posted 12 August 2008 06:58 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
3. American citizen Joe Mestas was witness to days of shelling by the Georgian US client state.

quote:
But what is happening there now it’s not just war, but war crimes. George Bush and [Georgian president] Mikhail Saakashvili should answer to the crimes that are being committed – the killing of innocent people, running over by tanks of children and women, throwing grenades into cellars where people are hiding,” Joe Mestas said.

“The war is when military fight against military. But the Georgian army is killing innocent civilians. This is genocide,” he added.


Genocide


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N.Beltov
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posted 12 August 2008 07:05 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
4. 70% of the buildings in Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia, have been destroyed by the Georgian attack that began last Friday.

quote:
"Up to 70% of the municipal buildings have been damaged or completely destroyed," Robert Guliyev said. "The situation is almost the same in the private housing sector."

The mayor said around 15,000 civilians remained in the city, which had 30,000 residents before the attacks began.


The Deputy Chief of Russia's General Staff, Colonel-General Anatoly Nogovitsyn, remarked:

"[A]ll nurseries, schools and the only hospital in the city were destroyed on the first day of the attack."

from the Mayor of a destroyed city


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N.Beltov
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posted 12 August 2008 07:55 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A number of proposed courses of action are worth mentioning:

quote:
The Russian Deputy Prime Minister Grigori Karasin has proposed establishing an international tribunal for war crimes in South Ossetia.

link


The call by the Russian Deputy PM for a War Crimes Tribunal has received support from the Russian Human Rights Ombudsman, Vladimir Lukin:

quote:
"Those responsible for the mass murder in the conflict zone have to be put on trial," Lukin said. The number of the dead in South Ossetia reaches the thousands, he pointed out. “The one who gave the order for the night destruction of Tskhinvali bears the main responsibility,” he added.

The Russian Foreign Ministry has already mentioned the possibility of taking action in the international courts in The Hague and Strasbourg to investigate the deaths of Russian peacekeepers in the conflict zone. The Russian military prosecutor initiated a criminal case in connection with their deaths.


another link

Interfax reports that "150 investigators will probe Georgian war crimes in South Ossetia". It looks like the Investigations Committee of the Russian Prosecutor's Office is treating this very seriously. The bulk of the story is behind a subscription wall at Novosti, however.

[ 12 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


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Stockholm
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posted 12 August 2008 08:03 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Why not have a double trial for war crimes where we also try Putin as a war criminal. Russia is apparently committing all sorts of atrocities in Georgia and let's not even get into the virtual genocide that Russia has committed in Chechnya.

Basically, Russia wants Georgia to be a puppet state of theirs and they hate the idea of having neighbouring countries that won't follow orders from the Kremlin. It's not that different from the US wanting to get rid of Castro.

I wonder how long Canada would last as an independent country if we tried to defy the US to the same extent that Georgia defies Russia?


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A_J
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posted 12 August 2008 08:17 AM      Profile for A_J     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This all reminds me of the hue and cry sent up back in 1991 when the U.S. claimed that Iraqi soldiers had been tossing Kuwaiti infants out of their incubators. No attempt to confirm the facts first or wait for further information, just a mad rush to level condemnation at Iraq for what was eventually revealed to be an entirely bogus story.

Now, I'm sure Beltov would chastise those naive enough to believe that example of U.S. propaganda and jump to such quick conclusions . . . yet nonetheless, we have this thread.


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Stockholm
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posted 12 August 2008 08:28 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
At the start of World War One, there were all sorts of fake stories about Germans bayoneting infants in Belgium.


I find it difficult to view a massive, expansionist, superpower led by a ruthless ex-KGB agent like Putin as a "poor victim".


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N.Beltov
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posted 12 August 2008 08:38 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ha! What a couple of lightweights. Here, let me tie one arm behind my back. Then it will be a fair fight.

Why not start your own thread about alleged Russian atrocities in this conflict? I'm sure you could get plenty of "evidence" from the Georgian Ministry of Foreign Affairs. That would be a more useful activity than schoolboy trolling and/or derailing of a perfectly good thread.


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A_J
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posted 12 August 2008 08:46 AM      Profile for A_J     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:
. . . a perfectly good thread.

Is this even a thread ("perfectly good" or otherwise)?

Or did you intend it to be your personal anti-Georgian blog, seeing how you seem to have taken great offence to anyone else posting here?


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Fidel
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posted 12 August 2008 08:50 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
At the start of World War One, there were all sorts of fake stories about Germans bayoneting infants in Belgium.

And in 1991, Hill&Knowlton propagandists were hired by Warshington to tell the story about "nurse Nayirah" - Iraqi soldiers allegedly pulled Kuwaiti babies from incubators, and left them to die on "cold cement floors" Joe Goebbels isn't dead. It was a total lie, but enough Americans beat the war drums after that.

quote:
I find it difficult to view a massive, expansionist, superpower led by a ruthless ex-KGB agent like Putin as a "poor victim".

Hmmmm And here I thought it was a vicious empire on this side of the planet with over 730 cold war era military bases still maintained around the world. Russians love Putin more than Canadians luv Harper, and a lot more love than USians have for their illegit leader at the present time.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 12 August 2008 08:52 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't have any objection to good contributions to the subject of the thread. But I don't consider changing the subject to be that.

There are a number of babblers who have made it their business to itemize and elaborate on a particular conflict in great detail. CMOT Dibbler is one such babbler. I'm happy to belong to such a club.

Here's some free advice - If all you can do is to derail threads and put general babble principles in question your stay here will be short and miserable. Have a nice day.


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Stockholm
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posted 12 August 2008 08:52 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Russians love Putin

so what? Israelis love Sharon - I don't see you regarding that as something that excuses Israel's policies.

The question is, do Georgians love Putin enough to want to be governed by Russian puppets?


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N.Beltov
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posted 12 August 2008 09:00 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Blogs about Georgian War Crimes

The evidence is BUILDING!!!


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Fidel
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posted 12 August 2008 09:01 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:

The question is, do Georgians love Putin enough to want to be governed by Russian puppets?


Georgians don't love the very undemocratic Saakashvili or his secret police. He's a bought and paid for stooge of the U.S.


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N.Beltov
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posted 12 August 2008 09:06 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Cluster bombs against civilians, gruesome evidence of US-Georgian war atrocities, shooting women and old people, ethnic cleansing, missile attacks, photos of the Khetagurovo massacre, genocide, THOUSANDS of oral reports of Tkhsinval survivors, destruction of the infrastructure, horrific body count, Georgian troopers admit orders to kill every male regardless of age, shooting women and children at close range, burning a church down with the victims still inside, ....

War Crimes. Pure and Simple.


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Sven
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posted 12 August 2008 09:08 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:
...shooting women and old people...

Are you suggesting that women are infirm?


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Frustrated Mess
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posted 12 August 2008 09:11 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Sven, you're embarrassing yourself. Are children infirm? Is it okay to shoot them? Oh, I forgot ... the New American Century ... shoot them, torture them, toss them away in dungeons ... it's all good.
From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
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posted 12 August 2008 09:16 AM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
Sven, you're embarrassing yourself. Are children infirm? Is it okay to shoot them? Oh, I forgot ... the New American Century ... shoot them, torture them, toss them away in dungeons ... it's all good.
Nothing new just a rerun of a very old American story. Governor Shirley of Mass. in 1744 put out a bounty on Amerindians of 100 Pounds for an adult male scalp, and 50 pounds for each scalp of a woman or child. Americans have always considered some people to be less human than others and their military acts accordingly.

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N.Beltov
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posted 12 August 2008 09:20 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Here's an expression of some Russian outrage ...

quote:
The Georgian government committed a crime against their own people when they invaded South Ossetia. The actions of Russia are firmly based in international law and legitimate. Russia shall always have enormous respect for the fraternal Georgian people, in spite of the criminal policy of the present government. I am confident, in spite of the tragedy that we see today, that this relationship shall continue in the future, notwithstanding the criminal policy of the present rulers of Georgia.

Who said that? Putin. Others weren't so measured ...

quote:
I agree wholeheartedly with Mr Putin. “It’s total genocide. This is nothing but madness. Civilised people do not behave like this”. I also agree with President Medvedev, “The task facing us is to ameliorate the consequences of this human tragedy… in this case, those officials who created these conditions must bear complete responsibility for their actions, including the violations of international law that are involved”.

Yes, I agree with Mr Medvedev to the last detail. Saakashvili and all the others in his criminal cabal must be put in chains, tried in Moscow, and hung in public on Red Square. Mayor Yuri Luzhkov is right. Saakashvili is a Hitler and must be treated accordingly. Americans are fooled by the Georgian CNN campaign. I have seen too many photos of dead and maimed Ossetian kids over the last 48 hours.

The dead cry out! Can’t you hear them? This baby-faced murderer killed them in cold blood. Don’t you have a soul?

I shall be honest. I would say my prayers, give a good confession, and receive absolution. Then, I would slip the noose about Saakashvili’s neck without compunction or pity and spring the trap with utterly no emotion.

God have mercy on us all.


Voices from Russia


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Sven
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posted 12 August 2008 09:26 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
Sven, you're embarrassing yourself. Are children infirm? Is it okay to shoot them? Oh, I forgot ... the New American Century ... shoot them, torture them, toss them away in dungeons ... it's all good.

That, of course, is silly.

It's like it's okay to shoot and kill civilian middle aged males but it's worse to shoot and kill "children, women and the aged". I agree that it's worse to kill defenseless children and the aged. But, to lump women into that category, as though they were mere weak children or aged seems anti-progressive, no?


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Sven
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posted 12 August 2008 09:30 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
Nothing new just a rerun of a very old American story. Governor Shirley of Mass. in 1744 put out a bounty on Amerindians of 100 Pounds for an adult male scalp, and 50 pounds for each scalp of a woman or child. Americans have always considered some people to be less human than others and their military acts accordingly.

That's my point. Women and men are equal. But, N.Beltov was classifying women as being in a category with the aged (the fraile).


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A_J
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posted 12 August 2008 09:31 AM      Profile for A_J     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:
Here's an expression of some Russian outrage ...

I asked this of you in the other thread, but got no response:

Would you support an invasion of Sudan or Burma where atrocities are both better documented by the United Nations and other third-parties and alleged to be far more widespread?


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N.Beltov
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posted 12 August 2008 09:48 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
On the topic of this thread ....

quote:
Some experts believe that Russia may demand extradition of some of the Georgian leaders for trial for war crimes.

see Voices from Russia


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N.Beltov
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posted 12 August 2008 09:51 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Between Sven quibbling about how to categorize the dead and A_Js questions about hypothetical invasions ... it feels like babble has been invaded by zombies. Keep up the good work, losers. It looks like your man Saakashvili is going to wind up like Saadam Hussein.

[ 12 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


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remind
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posted 12 August 2008 10:03 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thanks fo detailing the crimes against S Ossetians that have been documented so far nbeltov. Over the last couple of days I have not had time to research what truths are out there and appreciate coming here so I can catch up, and then disseminate.
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Sven
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posted 12 August 2008 10:03 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:
Keep up the good work, losers.

There's no need for that, N.Beltov. I know you're a better debater than that.


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Sven
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posted 12 August 2008 10:04 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
Thanks fo detailing the crimes against S Ossetians that have been documented so far nbeltov. Over the last couple of days I have not had time to research what truths are out there and appreciate coming here so I can catch up, and then disseminate.

N.Beltov has "documented" only what the Russians are claiming.


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N.Beltov
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posted 12 August 2008 10:06 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I can't hold a candle to what someone like CMOT has been doing ... but you're welcome.

I think we're going to be hearing a lot more about this.


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BetterRed
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posted 12 August 2008 10:09 AM      Profile for BetterRed     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Russia's official pretext for war was Georgia's treacherous killing of 12 Russian peacekeepers near Tskhinvali.
Could also be classified as a war crime

From: They change the course of history, everyday ppl like you and me | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 12 August 2008 10:11 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You know, all the negative reports about Putin notwithstanding, I'm really impressed with the measured response he gave with his remarks. You would never hear such remarks about the enemy from most Western leaders involved in such a conflict.

quote:
The Georgian government committed a crime against their own people when they invaded South Ossetia. The actions of Russia are firmly based in international law and legitimate. Russia shall always have enormous respect for the fraternal Georgian people, in spite of the criminal policy of the present government. I am confident, in spite of the tragedy that we see today, that this relationship shall continue in the future, notwithstanding the criminal policy of the present rulers of Georgia.

Those are Putin's words. I suspect that only a leader from a country that has suffered such losses in war would be able to find it in his heart to IMMEDIATELY temper words of outrage with words of respect. It's remarkable and I can't help but admire it. I wish we had such leaders able to demonstrate more respect in such a situation - leaders able to defuse bad situations from getting even worse, etc.

[ 12 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


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Sven
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posted 12 August 2008 10:14 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:
Those are Putin's words. I suspect that only a leader from a country that has suffered such losses in war would be able to find it in his heart to IMMEDIATELY temper words of outrage with words of respect. It's remarkable and I can't help but admire it. I wish we had such leaders.

Oh, for God's sake. Please quit fawning over Putin.


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remind
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posted 12 August 2008 10:17 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thanks for the erroneous distillation of what has been presented, Sven. However, it seems you forget that I can read links, and discern all by myself.

Moreover, shit show bit players, such as yourself, really expose themselves for what they are, as you did long ago. Hence your attempt to derail this thread really illuminates what the show's producers are wanting to people to believe.

I will keep a stack of towels on hand for those who enter, and risk getting caught is the splash


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Sven
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posted 12 August 2008 10:20 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
Moreover, shit show bit players, such as yourself...

In contrast to N.Beltov, that comment is about at your level of debate, unfortunately.


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Stockholm
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posted 12 August 2008 10:21 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Russian peacekeepers

An oxymoron


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N.Beltov
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posted 12 August 2008 10:22 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thing is Sven, I could easily quote you remarks like "Take out the Georgian trash" or "Stalin should have stayed in Georgia and done his work there" or such remarks. There's a real anti-Georgian attitude that preceded this conflict. If Putin was a complete demagogue he would have simply used the opportunity to ratchet up that crap. I'm impressed that he didn't.

I don't support Putin generally. But give the devil his due.


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BetterRed
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posted 12 August 2008 10:22 AM      Profile for BetterRed     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
See next post: couldnt edit properly

[ 12 August 2008: Message edited by: BetterRed ]


From: They change the course of history, everyday ppl like you and me | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
BetterRed
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posted 12 August 2008 10:28 AM      Profile for BetterRed     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by BetterRed:
A pro-human rights cruise missile liberal:

Also a Oxymoron....

Your anti-Russian venom is dripping visibly, Stock.
Are you aware that Russia's peacekeeping mission in both Abkhazia and S.Ossetia was recognized officially by the UN?
Are you aware of Russian peacekeeping missions in Tajikistan and Moldova?
both missions have managed to stop civil wars in respective countries,not to mention Russians bearing the burden for defending the extremely dangerous Tajik-Afghan border from the Taliban and the drug barons.
Why is it that you always reserve your venom for whoever is Washington's Hitler of the day??
Perhaps you should go do what you do best:
compare indigenous African leaders with barnyard animals in Zimbabwe thread.



From: They change the course of history, everyday ppl like you and me | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Caissa
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posted 12 August 2008 10:35 AM      Profile for Caissa     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hard to see how Russia's behaviour falls into any adequate definition of peacekeeping. As for Georgia, I can't imagine what its President was thinking when he ordered troops into South Ossetia. Did he think the world was too busy watching the Olympics and that Russia would stand by and watch?
From: Saint John | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 12 August 2008 10:47 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
It's like it's okay to shoot and kill civilian middle aged males but it's worse to shoot and kill "children, women and the aged". I agree that it's worse to kill defenseless children and the aged. But, to lump women into that category, as though they were mere weak children or aged seems anti-progressive, no?

Funny you should say that. The primary victims of your country's (and Britain's) siege of Iraq was women and children. Almost have of them were children. Madeline Albright described the slow, mass murder as worth it.

Meanwhile, just about all the victims of your country's slow, mass poisoning and genetic destruction of Iraq have been women and children.

Women, children, and the aged are usually placed together as women are most often the primary care givers to children and are most like to be the primary care givers to elderly people unable to look after themselves. Kill the women, and the old and young die too. You don't get that?

[ 12 August 2008: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
A_J
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posted 12 August 2008 10:55 AM      Profile for A_J     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by BetterRed:
Are you aware that Russia's peacekeeping mission in both Abkhazia and S.Ossetia was recognized officially by the UN?

It wasn't.

The only United Nations peacekeeping mission in Georgia was UNOMIG in Abkhazia, which consisted of 150 military personnel, not the thousands of Russians stationed there and in South Ossetia.


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M. Spector
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posted 12 August 2008 11:00 AM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Threads like this are why moderators were invented.
From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 12 August 2008 12:04 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yea, I suppose I got a little carried away. mea culpa.

_________________

In any case, the story has some real legs, I think. The baby-faced killer, as one blogger calls Saakashvili, will be feeling the pressure and his domestic enemies must be emboldened.

How appropriate that the birthplace of Georgia's most famous tyrant was abandoned so quickly by the drivers of pick-ups and tanks - who jockeyed for position with each other while fleeing from Gori along the highway to Tblisi - when it looks like the Russians were looking to control some military targets and then back off anyway.

Georgians, if they've got any brains, are going to give their Western-educated President an early retirement. And the Russians will be happy to take him off their hands and do to him what they should have done to Stalin 80 years ago.


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Stockholm
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posted 12 August 2008 12:13 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
God forbid that Georgia should have a "western educated President". Wouldn't it be better to hand the country to some pro-Russian ex-KGB type like that thug who rules Belarus with an iron fist.
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kropotkin1951
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posted 12 August 2008 12:17 PM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
God forbid that Georgia should have a "western educated President". Wouldn't it be better to hand the country to some pro-Russian ex-KGB type like that thug who rules Belarus with an iron fist.
Or maybe like the US with George I and his son Dumbo they could just elect a CIA thug instead.

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N.Beltov
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posted 12 August 2008 12:38 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Maybe anther guy named Djugashvilli from Gori. Not.
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Stockholm
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posted 12 August 2008 12:41 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
So, I guess you're all for free elections as long as people vote for the people YOU want them to vote for.

I guess to paraphrase Henry Kissinger, you are essentially saying "we can't sit back and let a country become a liberal democracy just because of the irresponsibility of its voters"


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N.Beltov
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posted 12 August 2008 12:58 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Somehow, I think Saakashvili's polling numbers have dropped like a stone. Call it a hunch.
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N.Beltov
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posted 12 August 2008 04:23 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 


Genocide!

Caution: the reports, even in translation, are shocking and horrifying. They may make you sick:

Georgian planes opening fire on fleeing children; multiple-launch weapon systems against civilians in gross violation of human decency, with heads and legs torn from the bodies; witnesses discover the loss of relatives and collapse, in shock, screaming, right on camera; bodies everywhere; witnesses recount an old woman, with children, run over by a tank and ask, incredulously, "What is this?"; ; a woman, in a basement ask, "How can one do this to people? Every mother should remember her own children, her love for them ... "; the horrors are endless, and each new one more shocking than the last ...

[ 12 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


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Stockholm
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posted 12 August 2008 05:07 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Why should we bother paying any attention to some obvious propaganda from the Putin controlled Russian media. For all we know they just killed a bunch of Chechens, photographed the bodies and said the Georgians did it.
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N.Beltov
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posted 12 August 2008 05:48 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Your remarks read like one of those Holocaust deniers. Shame on you. These are eyewitness reports - and many of them at that.
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Stockholm
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posted 12 August 2008 05:50 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Let's watch Georgian TV and see eyewitness accounts of Russian atrocities - or do you think that anything the Russians say is the gospel while everything the Georgians say is a lie?

I tend to believe small countries that want to be left alone over superpowers with a history of expansionism and imperialism.


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Frustrated Mess
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posted 12 August 2008 05:51 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I tend to believe small countries that want to be left alone over superpowers with a history of expansionism and imperialism.
Like Cuba? HAHAHAHAHA!!!! He's so full of shit.

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N.Beltov
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posted 12 August 2008 06:00 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Beauty, FM. Full points.
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N.Beltov
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posted 12 August 2008 06:04 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
OK, back to serious mode. I've already suggested that those interested in elaborating the alleged atrocities of the Russians in this conflict do their homework and maybe start a thread on it or something. If Stockholm/someone wants to check out the Georgian media, a few websites maybe, I'm sure we'd all be very interested. But find your own damn thread.

The Georgian regime has even cynically tried to initiate something to counter the criminal proceedings that the government of South Ossetia has already begun against Saakashvili. Good luck to them. But evidence of mass atrocities is difficult to fabricate.


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Jingles
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posted 12 August 2008 09:52 PM      Profile for Jingles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Where were these brave defenders of Georgian democracy against expansionist Russia when Isreal was bombing the shit out of Lebanon?

-Calling for more bombs, where else?


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BetterRed
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posted 12 August 2008 09:54 PM      Profile for BetterRed     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Excellent point, Jingles. But remember, that campaign was a 'measured response'?
After all, Bush admin and Stevie Harper said so.

From: They change the course of history, everyday ppl like you and me | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 12 August 2008 10:46 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Those events of the summer of 2006 showed the especially odious obsequiousness of Harper in relation to US policy and the policy of its client state Israel. Recall Harper had the affrontery to blame the Canadian peacekeeper for his own death. What a disgusting quisling. Gah.

[ 12 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


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N.Beltov
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posted 13 August 2008 05:16 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What court will Saakashvili be taken to?
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N.Beltov
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posted 13 August 2008 06:42 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
According to the verified data, more than 1600 civilians and 10 Russian peacekeepers died in bombing in the capital of Tskhinvali since August, 8; 34,000 people became refugees.

The Russian President has made it clear that he intends to place the genocide in South Ossetia on the world agenda. The Prosecutor General`s Office has already begun its work.

quote:
There is a precedent with former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein, who was sentenced to death after facing genocide charges. The National Court of Iraq decided that for the acts of genocide against even 200 people ... [etc]

The UN Convention notes: "genocide means any of the acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group. Persons committing genocide shall be punished, whether they are constitutionally responsible rulers, public officials or private individuals". Even a state can be viewed as a defendant. [See the 1948 UN Convention “On the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide”.]

link


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N.Beltov
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posted 13 August 2008 11:10 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Russian investigators have opened a genocide criminal case into the mass killings in South Ossetia by Georgia. Once they complete their work, Saakashvili will be put on trial for the horrific atrocities which were carried out under his instructions.

Saakashvili to be put on trial

quote:
The U.S. is at least as much responsible for the genocide of Ossetians as Georgia, said South Ossetian leader Eduard Kokoity. "The U.S. bears responsibility equally with Georgia for the genocide of the people of South Ossetia," Kokoity told Interfax on Thursday. "The U.S.' latest steps and statements by the American leadership only confirm this fact," he said.


U.S. shares responsibility

[ 13 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


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N.Beltov
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posted 14 August 2008 06:59 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
ITAR-TASS: Russia opens ‘genocide’ criminal case on SOssetia events

quote:
“The Investigative Committee’s main department have instituted criminal proceedings under Article 357 of the Russian Criminal Code- “genocide” based on received information on actions taken by the Georgian armed forces aimed at the liquidation of citizens of Russia residing in South Ossetia and Ossetians by nationality by way of murders and infliction of heavy damage to health,” said Komissarov.

The Russian President, Dmitry Medvedev, had a few remarks.

quote:
“Quite naturally, the problem of ethnic cleansings there does exist, and we’ve been quite resolute in raising the issue and will continue raising it in the future to expose the people responsible for them,” Medvedev said. “However, some of our partners ask us in private conversations for some reason to refrain from raising it,” he said. “Maybe, they feel shy.”

That's what diplomats from our fellow NATO countries do. Glad to see Medvedev has retained his sense of humor even in such a dark moment.

quote:
“International law qualifies such problems as a crime, like the slaughter of thousands of people, and it is called genocide,” Medvedev said. “More than that, we’ve said in the past we’re surprised to see the situations where one individual who killed thousands of people is described as a terrorist and a moron while another such individual is treated as a legitimately elected president of a sovereign country,” he said.

“International law doesn’t have provisions for the use of double standards, and we must observe this in political practices,” Medvedev said.


[ 14 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 18 August 2008 06:49 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
RUVR (Voice of Russia) - Russian investigators have obtained evidence that the Georgian military has deliberately killed Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia following the eruption of Georgia’s military aggression. This comes in a statement in an interview with the Rossiyskaya Gazeta daily by the deputy Chairman of the Russian Prosecutor’s Office’s Investigation Committee General Alexander Sorochkin. He gave to understand that the Georgian peacekeepers, who formed part of the mixed force to keep the peace shot at their Russian colleagues and then finished them off if the latter were still alive.

RUVR report

Here are some more details ....

quote:
Russia’s peacekeepers in South Ossetia were fired at short range, which confirms the intended-killing story, Major General Alexander Sorochkin, who heads the military investigating department, told Rossiyskaya Gazeta newspaper. ...

South Ossetia’s authorities and the RF Defense Ministry announced that the riot troops of Georgia were firing point-blank at wounded peacekeepers of Russia already on the first day of military clashes in Tskhinvali. Under the international laws, the attack on peacekeepers is the ground for opening fire. In Tbilisi, however, they claim they had done utmost to ensure peacekeepers’ safety.


Did Georgian troops open fire on Russian peacekeepers?

If you can read Russian, try Российская газета over here.


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N.Beltov
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posted 18 August 2008 06:59 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I found Europe Media Monitor which could be a good source for English language reporting from Europe. Here is the link specifically for the current conflict.
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N.Beltov
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posted 20 August 2008 09:44 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
St. Petersburg Times: It is looking increasingly unlikely that the death toll will be anywhere close to the numbers needed to support Moscow’s claim that Tbilisi had committed genocide.

Numbers Weaken Genocide Claims

Significantly more bodies will be found after the rubble is removed, considering the "very strong odor of decomposing bodies ... hanging over Tskhinvali’s demolished buildings", but it seems unlikely to rise to the level of a genocide against the South Ossetians. Of course, we're not mentioning 1992 or 2004 ...


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N.Beltov
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posted 20 August 2008 09:48 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Ilya Kramnik: To what extent did Georgia’s operation to restore constitutional order in South Ossetia meet these characteristics? The first characteristic is selective fire on illegal armed units and minimisation of civilian casualties. Obviously, this operation does not qualify, Georgian artillery shelled Tskhinvali and surrounding villages, and many instances of murder and violence against civilians are known. The second and no less important characteristic is the humanitarian component, namely, a commitment to early restoration of law and order and life support for civilians in the zone of operations. That component takes the shape of deployment of a network of medical aid centres, field hospitals, and stocks of food, water, and other necessities in the area to ease the suffering of innocent civilians in the context of a military operation. Georgia did none of these things.

On balance, Georgia’s actions before and during the invasion of South Ossetia suggest that the aim of the Georgian leadership was to exterminate South Ossetia’s non-Georgian population or cause it to flee to Russia. Under the Russian Criminal Code, such actions are described as genocide. In addition, Georgia directly violated international norms by opening fire on Russian peacekeeping units, and what is more, Georgian peacekeepers took part in firing.


The article by Ilya Kramnik has an excellent summary of the course of the fighting, strategy and tactics, and an assessment of both sides as well as some forecasting about the future.

Ilya Kramnik piece at Novosti

[ 20 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


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N.Beltov
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posted 23 August 2008 09:14 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
The chief human rights officer of the Council of Europe backs Russian initiatives to investigate Georgian war crimes against South Ossetia.
Mr Thomas Hammerberg has told this to reporters in Vladikavkaz after visiting a hospital which treats civilian casualties from the latest Caucasus conflict. He is traveling together with the Russian human rights ombudsman Vladimir Lukin.

VOR Aug 23


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N.Beltov
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posted 27 August 2008 10:33 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Regnum provides photographic evidence of the results of the Georgian attack on Tkhinvali. They are calling that destroyed city the Stalingrad of the 21st century.
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N.Beltov
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posted 03 September 2008 09:34 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
The Georgian military operation to capture the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali was code-named Clean Field. It seems that if it had been brought to completion, little would be left of Tskhinvali or its residents. After the two-day shelling, every tenth building in the capital was beyond repair and practically every building in the city was damaged by the shelling.

Georgia started the attack when many people were asleep or getting ready for bed. Some of them died instantly, others were buried in basements.

Eyewitness reports are shocking. The Georgian military was shooting at cars carrying refugees trying to flee the city. They blew up the water treatment plant, and it flooded the basements where people were hiding. They levelled Ossetian cemeteries with tanks and burnt the Holy Virgin Church, where civilians had taken shelter.

In a village in the Znaur District, they burned several girls alive. “They herded them like cattle into a house, shut it up and set fire to it,” eyewitnesses recalled.

On the first day of the attack, Russian President Medvedev called it genocide. Under his instructions, the Russian General Prosecutor’s Office started criminal proceedings on charges of genocide of Russian citizens (many residents of Tskhinvali have Russian citizenship). A total of 1,215 people have already been questioned in connection with the investigation. The committee’s representative, Vladimir Markin, said: “Our investigators often have to call for doctors to calm witnesses down. Many start weeping when they recall their killed relatives and friends”


quote:
Ilona Djioyeva, a resident of the Dmenis village

“Georgian planes were bombing houses. On the morning of August 8, people started fleeing into the forest. About a thousand people dressed in Nato uniforms encircled half of the village and shot at those who were trying to flee. They had no mercy for old people or women. Very few people survived.”


"I was praying for my child to die quickly ..."

[ 03 September 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 04 September 2008 10:03 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

Here is the Jewish Quarter of Tskhinvali after the Georgian bombing.

Buildings from the third century, St Georgy Church of the 8th - 9th centuries, the Church of the Holy Virgin of the 17th century, a synagogue ... all destroyed. And the response?

quote:
“When the Taliban blew up the statues of Buddha in Afghanistan, the whole world called it a barbarity. Today, the world community, including UNESCO, keeps utter silence [about the destruction of cultural and religious artefacts in South Ossetia]“, Aleksandr Kibovsky, the head of Rosokhrankultura, told journalists.

link

[ 04 September 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 05 September 2008 08:57 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
First provisional list of Ossetian victims identified.

quote:
A complete list of all the victims of the conflict is not yet available as information is still being collected by South Ossetian authorities. The following are the names, dates of birth, causes of death and burial places of South Ossetian citizens so far confirmed killed in the fighting between the 7th and 12th of August 2008.

311 so far. Those who were hastily buried by others who were, themselves, killed by the Georgians, those who were blown to bits and only body parts remained, those whose bodies were removed by Georgian troops, etc., all of these victims ... may never be counted.

Edited to add:

quote:
hundreds of Tskhinval residents were crushed by GRAD (or Hail), multi-rocket launch systems given the nickname from the atmospheric phenomenon. Indiscriminate and plentiful, these killing machines beat Tskhinval to a pulp.

”They were killed by GRAD. A mother and daughter. It was definitely GRAD because it tore off the mother's head. And the daughter - she doesn't have a leg,” a local said.

The Georgian rockets didn't just kill. They also mutilated their victims beyond recognition. Vyacheslav Mami has worked at Tskhinval's morgue for more than 30 years but he had never seen such badly disfigured bodies before.

”The only way you could identify most of the bodies is by their clothes or some documents. The mutilation was so extensive and so multiple that when my own colleagues received them, I didn't recognise them,” says Vyacheslav Mami, Director of Tskhinval morgue.


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[ 07 September 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 06 September 2008 05:25 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
"Worse than Stalingrad"

quote:
There was a German journalist in our group and he asked a local woman if it reminded her of the situation in Stalingrad during the WW2. She answered in her opinion it is worse than Stalingrad, much worse. In Stalingrad there was a war between two armies, the German one and the Soviet one. And fortunately the Soviet army at that moment appeared to be stronger. And here in Tskhinval it has been just the execution of sleeping civilians.

[ 06 September 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


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N.Beltov
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posted 07 September 2008 11:58 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Video shows Georgian troops OPEN FIRE on Ossetian civilian buildings in Tskhinvali.

further info can be found at Witnesses reveal Georgian atrocities.

quote:
Lyudmila Tasoyeva: “A car carrying people was shot at by Georgians in Tskhinval. The family in the car, parents with two children, were still alive. Gasoline was poured over the car and it was set on fire".


Vali Bestayeva: “Georgian soldiers raped seven young women and then burned them alive in the village of Tsunari.”


Mikhail Tomayev: “On August 8 the mass shelling of Tskhinval started. Georgian troops entered the city and killed a pregnant woman who was running away. They stormed basements and killed civilians hiding there.”


Larisa Begayeva: “On August 8, at around 9am, Georgian tanks entered Tskhinval from near the Georgian village of Nikozi. They started to run over people who were running across a field, including women, children and old people. Some civilians hid in the church on Komarov street, and the Georgians, having seen that, blew up the building. All the people inside the church were killed.”



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N.Beltov
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posted 09 September 2008 08:50 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Video of The Road of Death to Tskhinvali.

The video takes forever to load (I had to keep reloading it over and over again) but the camera work from a moving vehicle, as well as the still shots, gives the viewer a good idea of what happened. The devastation is astonishing.

No wonder they are calling Tskhinvali the Stalingrad of the 21st century. Over 1,000 buildings destroyed. One Moldovan Parliamentarian remarked that he made the mistake of trying to count the destroyed buildings. "It would have been easier to count the ones left intact," Dumitru Godoroja said.


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Brendan Stone
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posted 10 September 2008 05:15 PM      Profile for Brendan Stone   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Stealth Genocide

I don't think this has been posted yet, and it is very interesting. An Ontario newspaper actually interviewed a South Ossetian woman who had been caught by surprise by this war while visiting in Canada. She is a researcher of South Ossetian culture, and the fact that this was published at all is amazing:

http://www.barrhavenindependent.on.ca:80/

You can see the article by clicking on the "Stealth Genocide"


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N.Beltov
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posted 11 September 2008 05:52 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yea, that article is useful in that it underlines the Georgian attack in the context of previous history. This wasn't the first attempt at ethnic cleansing by the Georgians.

After the Soviet Union came apart, the autonomy of the South Ossetians was abolished by the Gamsakhurdia regime in Georgia. There was an attempt by the Georgian authorities to carry out what Saakashvili tried to do on August 7/8 of this year and failed. Following that conflict, peacekeepers were introduced, South Ossetia became de facto independent, and some of the agreements now in place were established.

Going further back in Ossetian history, a previous attempt at ethnic cleansing took place around the time of the establishment of the Georgian Federal Republic (1918-1920), which preceded the Soviet period.

[ 11 September 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


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N.Beltov
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posted 11 September 2008 09:36 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
RN: Is genocide against the Ossetian people confirmed?

Aleks Bastrykin: Completely. We have concluded that in the period between the 7th and the 12th of August, Georgian armed forces invaded the territory of the unrecognised state with the aim of completely eradicating the Ossetian national group. They had pity for nobody. We found a woman who was shot in the head. She was eight months pregnant. The unborn child died as well.

We recorded a number of eyewitness reports stating that Georgian troops specifically bombed basements, where they knew Tskhinval civilians were hiding.

Not only in Tskhinval, but in other towns, hundreds of buildings have been wiped out - the aggressors erased them from the face of the Earth so that no trace of Ossetian life remained on this soil....

RN: It was also reported that many Ossetian monuments and cultural sites were destroyed.

AB: Almost all of them. Georgian tanks even wiped out a Christian temple dating back to 16th century. Here is further proof of genocide from the Georgian side. This crime means not only the annihilation of a nation, but also its history, culture and monuments.


Aleksandr Bastrykin is currently coordinating the inquiry into Georgian military crimes in South Ossetia. He is a member of the inquiry committee at the Russian Federal Office of the Public Prosecutor.

web page

No wonder the western media has quieted down about the war in Ossetia. It's very embarrassing for the governments of NATO countries to support genocide. Therefore, silence is best.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4140

posted 12 September 2008 06:58 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Russian President Medvedev: “The Georgian head of state is not just a man we won’t do business with. He’s an unpredictable pathological and mentally unstable drug abuser. Western journalists know it! A two-hour-long interview on the high – that’s over the edge for a head of state. Does NATO need such a leader?”

"... a mentally unstable drug abuser."

P.S. - One contributor to a discussion board mentioned coke.

Medvedev's other remarks are actually an interesting read. He mentioned at one point that the US State Department suffers from having too many Sovietologists and not enough experts on Russia. HA ha! A direct hit, Dmitry Anatolyevich.

[ 12 September 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4140

posted 30 October 2008 07:17 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Months pass, and the BBC finally recognize Georgian War Crimes.

quote:
The BBC says it has obtained evidence that the Georgian army may have committed war crimes during August’s military offensive in South Ossetia. Britain’s flagship broadcaster heard testimonies during the first unrestricted visit to South Ossetia by a foreign news organisation since the conflict ended.

Peter Lavalle of Russia Today remarks:

"The BBC (specifically BBC 2 Newsnight) needs to be complimented for
challenging the commentariat’s standard interpretation surrounding the
South Ossetian conflict. Part of the standard interpretation is that
Russia started the conflict and that Georgia was an innocent victim.
However, the BBC didn’t break a major story. It has meekly and with a
modicum of dignity reported on what many of us have known all along:
Saakashvili’s reckless war aimed to ethnically cleanse South Ossetia.
He, his regime, and his Western backers are war criminals.

For the last three months the truth of this war has been murdered over
and over again. During this time a few brave media outlets questioned
the Georgian government’s propaganda machine and Western patrons
desperate to sweep the truth under the rug. Then the financial
meltdown happened. Saakashvili was probably hoping his war crimes
would be quickly overshadowed by events and forgotten.

Some of us have not forgotten – we cannot accept the death of outrage.
I covered the South Ossetian conflict at RT for weeks on lots of
angered adrenaline and sleeplessness. I am very proud to say that
there is ABSOLUTELY nothing the BBC had in its report that RT didn’t
report and MUCH MORE when events were happening! The hubris of Western
media has no limits – the BBC pretended RT didn’t exist and CNN simply
stole our pictures. I have no doubt both watched RT at the time, but
what we said didn’t match their worldview. At every turn they followed
their governments’ official policy positions. "

Georgian War Crimes!

Photo Exhibit

Can the Canadian media be far behind? Or will they ask for permission from their American masters first?


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged

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