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Author Topic: Barbie and the West Bad influence?
Debra
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posted 08 March 2002 10:58 AM      Profile for Debra   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Story

quote:
Iran hopes two dolls dressed in traditional Iranian clothing will see off plastic princess Barbie in Tehran's latest offensive against what it calls a Western cultural invasion.

The 23-year-old Islamic Republic has fought a running battle to purge pervasive Western culture from the country, enforcing Islamic dress codes, banning Western music and foreign satellite television.



From: The only difference between graffiti & philosophy is the word fuck... | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Thandiwe
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posted 08 March 2002 01:23 PM      Profile for Thandiwe   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Of course Barbie is a bad influence. Everyone knows that. When I was four, my mother gave up on trying to explain to me the feminist theory behind her decision to not buy me any Barbies, and just told me they were too expensive. That, I understood. I'm actually beginning to think that there's some kind of mystical thing with Barbies. Some kind of spell or something, because logically, they're really freaky looking and even scary. And yet, girls love them. I loved them. If you put a Barbie and some clothes in front of me right now, I'd play with it, because that is the Magnetism of the Barbie.

It crosses cultures, times, and places. It remains an inevitable fact of life in the early 21st century, and I don't think that's going to change. Here, or in Iran.

I think it's funny (understandable, but funny) that the clothes on the Iranian dolls are not removeable. I feel kinda bad for "Sara" and "Dara," damned to an eternal state of clothedness. And because no one will play with them.


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vaudree
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posted 08 March 2002 02:11 PM      Profile for vaudree     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What no pictures of Sarah and Dara?
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Michelle
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posted 08 March 2002 02:14 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 08 March 2002 02:16 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

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vaudree
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posted 08 March 2002 02:29 PM      Profile for vaudree     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I was going to say that I guess Kelly would have a few more playmates. Someone a bit more sedate than the get real girls . However, it seems that these dolls are more the size of a Crissy or a Velvet.

Size matters - when you are trying to come up with a few more clothes. What girl has not tried to use the skirt as a dress - even if it doesn't quite work out? And how many really appreciate the clothes grandmas around the world makes for the dolls?


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Timebandit
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posted 08 March 2002 03:26 PM      Profile for Timebandit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think alternatives to Barbie are a good thing... Why should they not have dolls and toys that fit in with their cultural beliefs?

Interesting site, Vaudree, I had not heard of the "Get Real Girls". I would far rather my daughters look to women who are active than "fashion dolls".


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Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 08 March 2002 03:29 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
They look like the cheap-ass dolls one can buy at Honest Ed's.

They also don't look like adults. That's the key to Barbie's appeal. She was one of the first dolls that wasn't a baby or a child. Girls like Barbie because she's (ostensibly) a grown-up.


From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Timebandit
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posted 08 March 2002 03:38 PM      Profile for Timebandit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I wouldn't say she was even remotely one of the first "adult" dolls... That's silly.

One of the most grotesque charicatures of the female form, perhaps.

And that would be one of many reasons for which I'd discourage playing with Barbies.


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Trinitty
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posted 08 March 2002 03:47 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I loved Barbie. I played with Barbie. I will buy my daughters Barbies if they want them.

If you teach your daughter that it's what's between her ears and under her sternum that counts, and portray that with your everyday actions, no amount of play time with a large breasted, versatile, long legged, multi-ethnic plastic doll is going to change that.

I am a feminist, my mother is a feminist, dammnit, my grandmother is a feminist! I think this is silly.

If you taught your child that women can only get what they want if they sexually manipulate men, and they'd better be thin with great tits and gobs of makeup everyday and then portrayed that to her/him throughout their development, it wouldn't matter if she played with GI joe, or Happy to be Me dolls.

They are TOYS.


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Trinitty
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posted 08 March 2002 03:50 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
AND, I'm 99% sure that M'boy is dead-on in his note that they were the first dolls for western girls that weren't baby dolls. That was the appeal of Barbie. She was inspired by "adult" dolls that were popular with WOMEN in Germany.

That style was modified slightly by the creator of Barbie and she was a hit.


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Debra
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posted 08 March 2002 03:51 PM      Profile for Debra   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'd say that's pretty accurate.

My eldest never had a Barbie and she is very make up and fashion oriented.

My youngest daughter loves Barbie and yet is also loves mucking about and doing "boy" things.

My problem in this instance is that the little girls are seeing a western "ideal" as something they should aspire to adn thereby missing out on the beauty that is their own.


From: The only difference between graffiti & philosophy is the word fuck... | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 08 March 2002 03:52 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
How Barbie was invented.

(Warning: This site is a loving tribute to Barbie, and may cause mild retching.)

[ March 08, 2002: Message edited by: Victor Von MediaBoy ]


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Trinitty
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posted 08 March 2002 03:56 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I knew you'd post it, so I didn't bother looking.
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Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 08 March 2002 04:01 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hmm...
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Timebandit
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posted 08 March 2002 04:02 PM      Profile for Timebandit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Regardless, they had been making "bride" dolls, "nurse" dolls, etc. for decades. Dolls have been made in a variety of shapes and "ages" for millenia. Barbie was hardly the first.

And might I point out that just because you read it on the 'net doesn't make it accurate?

As to the argument for the creation of Barbie:

quote:
She realized that as her daughter grew older and began to imitate adult conversations and the world around her, she needed a three-dimensional representation of it as well.

That might have been fine at the time -- you know, when they marketed them at the 10 and up crowd... However, it's 4 and 5 yr olds now. Why does a 5 yr old need a 3D representation of womanhood?

I don't know if Barbie is harmful -- likely, she isn't. But I don't like what she stands for, and I discourage them in my house. Fortunately so far, my 4 yr old is much happier with her babies and animals (particularly the ponies) and it hasn't become an issue yet.


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Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 08 March 2002 04:11 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
And might I point out that just because you read it on the 'net doesn't make it accurate?


You lie!


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Thandiwe
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posted 08 March 2002 04:38 PM      Profile for Thandiwe   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
First of all, wow. Those dolls are not anything like Barbies at all. No wonder no one cares. Clearly, the dolls suck.

As for Barbie, though -- I'd always heard that the prototype for Barbie was supposed to be a "men's" doll, if you know what I mean and I think you do. And that? Is pretty... ick. Especially since now, every North American girl ages 2-12 is playing with them.

If I had a daughter, I'd try my dardest to find her alternatives, though my efforts would probably be in vain since a Love for Barbie seems to be genetically encoded into North American girls. And girls everywhere, for that matter.


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Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 08 March 2002 04:44 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Both my sisters had a Barbie. One went on to be a successful marine biologist, the other one a feminist and teacher.

I think the key is that they each had ONE Barbie. Mom didn't get sucked into buying them every accessory, outfit, dollhouse, etc, etc. As such, Barbie didn't seem to have much of an impact on them. She was just a toy, not an obsession.

This is just an off-the-cuff theory on my part, of course. I don't think Barbie, in and of herself, is all that harmful. It's the endless barrage of Barbie marketing and advertising that creeps me out. The doll itself seems pretty benign by comparison.

[ March 08, 2002: Message edited by: Victor Von MediaBoy ]


From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
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posted 08 March 2002 05:38 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'll second that.

And btw, played with Star Wars, Ponies, and HE-MAN, Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more than Barbie. But, I don't think Barbie is evil.


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Debra
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posted 08 March 2002 05:51 PM      Profile for Debra   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

Still don't think she's evil?


From: The only difference between graffiti & philosophy is the word fuck... | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 08 March 2002 05:56 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Not any more than Bert.
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vaudree
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posted 08 March 2002 06:34 PM      Profile for vaudree     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Talking about Barbie, did any one catch JUDES's latest article?

Makes you want to put away that Barbie doll and get a Gordon Campbell doll to stick needles into - except that sharing needles is considered a bad thing.

And what is wrong with Barbie anyway? Everyone needs a standard that they can't live up to. Isn't that what healthy competition is all about - or so Fronteer keeps telling us.

[ March 08, 2002: Message edited by: vaudree ]


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Loretta
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posted 08 March 2002 07:07 PM      Profile for Loretta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Doll play is an essential part of gender training - young girls caretake (dolls), young boys get out there (trucks), etc. Using "ethnically correct" dolls is the no different, in that sense. (Please do not get the impression that I support the above - it's an observation, that's all.)
From: The West Kootenays of BC | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Debra
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posted 08 March 2002 07:11 PM      Profile for Debra   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That's true and I know that the girls who live next door have every Barbie and accessory available. No access to "boy" type toys at all.

I've always provided my kids (male and female) with dolls, cars, building blocks , bikes they all play with everything.

And both my girls are great a math so I think perhaps the lego and lincoln logs etc do help with math and spatial ability.


From: The only difference between graffiti & philosophy is the word fuck... | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
vaudree
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posted 08 March 2002 07:37 PM      Profile for vaudree     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Barbie represents the old divide and conquor inherent with any competiton. For example, as long as women are competiting with each other and men as the prize, they will not be looking at whether men are worth fighting over or not. Likewise with the Global economy, as long as we are fighting over the table scraps as we climb the latter towards some vague concept of success, we will not be question socioeconomic inequality.

And Bush calling to extend the war, as long as there is an external enemy no one is going to look at what Bush is doing on the homefrount besides choking the pretzle.


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Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 08 March 2002 10:11 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Lincoln Logs, perhaps, but I've convinced by the Meccano-boosters that Lego is educationally useless. Meccano teaches real-world construction, physics, and engineering lessons. Meccano parts are basically scaled down versions of real-world construction materials. When was the last time you saw anything in the real world built out of lego-style modular bricks.

Wait, I CAN think of one real-world application that is analagous to Lego - computer graphics. Hmm...


From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
vaudree
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posted 08 March 2002 11:05 PM      Profile for vaudree     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Have you ever heard of the lego/anti-lego concept of ideational relevance. Everytime you take apart two entities in one dimention, you join them in another dimention. And everytime you deem to entities as being the same, by the same process you also make them opposites.

Entity is defined as anything that can be grasped.

Barbie and Sarah are both the same since they are the both the embodiment of their societies belief systems, but opposite in the fact that these embodiments are contradictory.

[ March 08, 2002: Message edited by: vaudree ]


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