quote:

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Iran's Jews have given the country a loyalty pledge in the face of cash offers aimed at encouraging them to move to Israel, the arch-enemy of its Islamic rulers.

The incentives — ranging from £5,000 a person to £30,000 for families — were offered from a special fund established by wealthy expatriate Jews in an effort to prompt a mass migration to Israel from among Iran's 25,000-strong Jewish community. The offers were made with Israel's official blessing and were additional to the usual state packages it provides to Jews emigrating from the diaspora.

However, the Society of Iranian Jews dismissed them as "immature political enticements" and said their national identity was not for sale.

"The identity of Iranian Jews is not tradeable for any amount of money," the society said in a statement. "Iranian Jews are among the most ancient Iranians. Iran's Jews love their Iranian identity and their culture, so threats and this immature political enticement will not achieve their aim of wiping out the identity of Iranian Jews."

The Israeli newspaper Ma'ariv reported that the incentives had been doubled after earlier offers of £2,500 a head failed to attract any Iranian Jews to leave for Israel.

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It is utterly clear that Iran has an antisemitic President; denying that would be laughable.

It is also utterly clear that no one in Iran has rights which are enforceable; thus the present toleration of Jews could end tomorrow.

Now, I am sure that even the pro-Iranian babblers would not argue that Jewish residence in Nazi Germany (when emigration was possible until 1939) is proof that there was no Nazi antisemitism.

So, why would the decision by some Jews, (far from all of them) be proof of anything concerning Iranian state policy?

And, merely for the sake of balance, I think babblers might like to know about the following:

jews tortured when trying to leave iran?

[ 12 July 2007: Message edited by: jeff house ]

You are smarter than to believe a comment like that.

For example, what RIGHT does any Iranian have to a passport? What court can one go to to get one?

What happens to their property if they leave? Are they allowed to retain it or is it seized?

The Jewish newspaper Forward quotes some Jews NOT still living in Iran.

quote:

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Kermanian, of the L.A.-based Iranian Jewish federation, said that “given the situation and the current climate, some Jews there will say things are not too bad, but the totality of the picture is negative.” He said that the recent uptick in antisemitic propaganda in books and the media had stoked fears within the Jewish community in Iran.

The regime’s anti-Zionist propaganda has at times provoked antisemitic incidents. Last summer, a hard-line weekly newspaper, Yalesarat, published photographs of people waving Israeli flags in synagogues to celebrate Israeli Independence Day. The paper falsely asserted that the synagogues were in Iran, prompting an assault on two synagogues.

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Now, I am sure that we have babblers who will tell us that when Cubans leave Cuba, it means NOTHING! But when (some) Jews remain in Iran, that means NO PROBLEMS for them.

quote:

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In Iran, fewer than 30,000 Jews, perhaps only 25,000, remain of the 85,000 who were here at the time of the Islamic revolution in 1979.

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quote:

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Originally posted by jeff house:

It is utterly clear that Iran has an antisemitic President; denying that would be laughable.

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What are you up to now - collecting Iran-U.S. similarities?

quote:

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It is also utterly clear that no one in Iran has rights which are enforceable; thus the present toleration of Jews could end tomorrow.

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The fact that over two-thirds of Iran's Jewish population has left since 1979 doesn't suggest a high level of happiness.

quote:

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Originally posted by jeff house:
While you are at it, people, please explain this figure:

http://www.la.utexas.edu/chenry/aip/press99/101799iran-jews.html

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From your link:

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Since the Islamic revolution, Jews have been a recognized minority, with guaranteed civil rights, freedom to keep Jewish traditions and to run Jewish schools. In Teheran, there are 27 synagogues, several of them modernized with help of donations from American Jewish groups. Like Christians, Zoroastrians and other minority groups, they have a reserved seat in Parliament, currently held by Manucher Eliassi, a 58-year-old Teheran doctor who has been in the forefront of efforts to help the Shiraz Jews.

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And this is that bad guy Khatami who is being sued by U.S. Jews in your other article:

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A few days earlier, addressing ethnic minorities in the shrine built to the cleric who led the Islamic revolution, Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, Khatami said Jews were equal citizens in Iran. "Anti-Semitism and fascism are a Western phenomenon, not an Eastern one," he said.

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If you want to know what I think, heck, just ask me. I'm no fan of the Iranian government, you know that. But I think hyperbole on both sides is kind of dumb, whether it's the "Iran can do no wrong" crowd or the "Iran is The Evil Empire Of The World" crowd.

My thoughts reading this article? I thought, first of all, I somehow doubt that this organization quoted speaks for all Iranian Jews. Secondly, I've read a bit on the subject of living in Iran as a Jew, and while they certainly have more freedom than people commonly think they do, it's certainly not a bastion of Jewish liberty or anything. First of all, from what I understand from what I've read and heard firsthand from Iranian friends and acquaintences, there is a deep and widespread antisemitism in Iran, mostly because of resentment towards Israel that spills over into prejudice against all Jews. Kind of like the way Israel is an extremely racist society that discriminates horribly against the Israeli Arabs and Muslims living there. I know an Iranian who lived in Israel for a while, and the racism was everywhere, blatant, in your face, and hostile as all get out. I have no doubt that it is the same in Iran for Jews.

Iranian Jews, like Iranian Christians, are deeply persecuted in Iran. They can practice their faith, but not openly. And they can't talk to anyone else about their faith (read: Muslims) or they'll be accused of trying to convert people, or create "apostates" out of Muslims. Furthermore, if you are a Muslim who tries to convert to Judaism or Christianity or any other religion? Well, that carries a little old death sentence. Not sure how often that's carried out, but from what I've heard, it's one of those "convenient" laws that they use, like laws against drinking, for instance, to persecute people they want to silence or get rid of for other reasons. Like, oh, say, speaking out against the religious freaks who run the country (or the city, or the police, or whatever).

So yes, I take this "official" statement from "Iran's Jews" with a great big grain of salt. But that doesn't mean I think that people shouldn't post articles on this subject that appear in The Guardian on babble.

[ 12 July 2007: Message edited by: Michelle ]

quote:

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Kind of like the way Israel is an extremely racist society that discriminates horribly against the Israeli Arabs and Muslims living there.

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So to repeat while there are problems to be sure in regards to racism in Israel, Michelle's statement is totally without merit and discriminates generally against all Israelis. If this wasnt written by a mod I'd complain to one.

[ 12 July 2007: Message edited by: ohara ]

I think it's laughable that you would complain about that but not complain about my statement that Iranian society is anti-semitic. Because in oharaworld, only criticism of Israel is bad. Criticism of Iran or Palestine or Arab countries? That's hunky dory!

And I think it's hilarious that you would automatically assume I was talking about each and every Israeli when I talk about the racism in Israeli society - but for some reason you seem to either realize I wasn't talking about each and every Iranian when I talked about the anti-semitism in Iranian society, or if you did think I was, you were just fine with that.

1) Israel causing an international incident by trying to raid other countries. Like when Sharon told French Jews to leave France.
2) Iran's insane leader wanting to purify itself by getting rid of an evil minority.

quote:

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Once she moved to Israel, Nathan found that her new country also suffered from discrimination. However, this time, Jews, rather than being discriminated against, were the ones discriminating. she said. The Arabs of Israel suffered from severe segregation comparable to the plight during South Africa’s apartheid, she argued.

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quote:

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That campaign was notable for the impact made by Arab Israeli players. Racism is a major problem in Israeli football with Arab Israelis bearing the brunt. Home games played at Beitar Jerusalem, one of the leading clubs, would reverberate to 10,000, the entire crowd, chanting "death to the Arabs" and calling Arab players "suicide bomber" and "terrorist".

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The problem is that Israel defines itself as a "Jewish and democratic state" -- but has not reconciled the apparent contradiction in being both "Jewish" and "democratic." In reality, Israeli Arabs are in many ways seen and treated as second-class citizens. And now, there are signs that a long-simmering tension between Israeli Arabs and Jews may be rising to a boiling point. In December, a broad coalition of Israeli Arab leaders and intellectuals published a document titled "The Future Vision of Palestinian Arabs in Israel," which called for cultural autonomy and the right to veto government decisions concerning Israeli Arabs. It also declared a vision of Israel not as a Jewish state granting them full civil rights, but as a "state of all its citizens." Unsurprisingly, the document was denounced as dangerous and treacherous by many Israeli Jews.

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quote:

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"in a survey about racist attitudes in Israel published last week by NIF grantee Center Against Racism and Defamation to mark International Anti-Racism Day: 41 percent of Israeli Jews feel that the State should encourage emigration of Arab citizens, while 40 percent of Israeli Jews would be happy if there were separate leisure and entertainment establishments for Arabs and Jews. The survey also found that 68 percent of Israeli Jews would refuse to live in the same apartment building as Arabs, while 46 percent of Jews would not let an Arab visit their home."

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Keep flailing, ohara. I'm just so sure that if a poll was done of Canadian citizens, and 68% of Canadians would refuse to live in the same apartment building as Jews, or almost half of Canadians would not allow a Jewish person to visit their home, that wouldn't indicate anything about anti-semitism in Canadian society, would it? If 40% of Canadians supported separate restaurants and pools and other leisure places for Jews, I'm sure that wouldn't ring any warning bells about Canadian society for you, would it?

No, it's just one person on the entire planet who has experienced repeated racist incidents while living in Israel as an Iranian - and what an incredible coincidence that I just happened to meet him. A completely isolated incident, I'm sure. Just as all those other links I provided above are just accounts of isolated incidences.

Wake up, ohara. You can't be at war for decades in a region between two peoples and not have racism running rampant on both sides.

[ 12 July 2007: Message edited by: Michelle ]

quote:

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Originally posted by ohara:

For a place that "discriminates horribly against the Israeli Arabs and Muslims living there", Arabs can run and hold seats in the Knesseth, there is a free and open Arab press and media in israel, there is an Arab minister in the government and there are Arab Judges within the Israeli court system.

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quote:

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Originally posted by jeff house:
Now, I am sure that we have babblers who will tell us that when Cubans leave Cuba, it means NOTHING! But when (some) Jews remain in Iran, that means NO PROBLEMS for them.

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The Cuban Jewish community celebrated its 100th anniversary last year.

I can tell you for fact.. Ive had a lot of relatives migrate to Canada since the USA ramped up its invasios in 1991..

I can tell you that all of them are very religious and stick to were there are from..

So that means I hear a lot of anti-muslim bs.. I just end up getting into arguements with them...

However if you would read my posts I admitted clearly and unequivocaly that their remais a spectre within Israeli society of racism that must be challenged and dealt with.

Take Canada for example. We can participate in the overthrow of a popular and effective leader, install a gang of far-right thugs in power, as in Haiti (and the West bank and Gaza for Israel). We can do that, because we are a great democracy. We can participate in the occupation of a country that has done nothing to us, calling on American air power to destroy whole villages, as in Afghanistan (and Lebanon for Israel). We can do that, because we are a great democracy. We can steal land, concentrate the original occupants onto marginal, isolated chunks of unwanted land, starve them, deny medical care, torture their children, rob them, force them to carry racial identity cards, and generally treat them with disdain and contempt. We do that to our Native peoples (Israel to the Palestinians).We can do that too, because we are a great democracy.

So, Israel is following the template.

If you invade, torture, murder, steal, and target a subset of the population based on racism, then you'd better call yourself a democracy.

quote:

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Originally posted by ohara:
Keep on shapeshifting Michelle, becuase any way you wish to compare Israel and Iran societally, structuarlly there is none. Secondly that you can ascribe an apocraphyl story told to you by one person and generalize that to an entie society continues to betray both your blindness and animus. Take off those blinders Michelle and see the world.

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I just spent some time in Israel - it's as racist as ever. As one cab driver put it (unprompted, mind you) "those people have so many countries and yet they also want this little piece of land", and in so doing echoed the collective memory-loss of a great proportion of Israeli society. Ethnic cleansing? Never happened, those Arabs just hate us and want it all. I heard the same thing echoed in many corners.

But hey, that is anecdotal. The evidence says that, structurally speaking, Israel is still discriminatory. Your assertion that Islam is a "partner" faith is laughable when the state openly declares itself Jewish. There is ample evidence that Arabs in Israel are discriminated against in both the public and private spheres. Michelle's statistics demonstrate the social attitudes which allow these structural inequalities to continue.

And since you have memory loss, let's mention the Occupied Territories where Palestinians live without recourse to legal protections afforded Israelis, and live in constant fear for their lives and wellbeing. Sound familiar? Arbitrarily drawing a line at That Stupid Wall and pretending that the Occupied Territories are not "Israel" is willful blindness and flat-out ignorant of the juridical responsibilities placed on Israel by international law to which it is party. Let's assume there were a small (and ever-shrinking) plot of land in Iran where Jews lived but without basic rights and freedoms, where they spent their lives at gunpoint waiting for day when the tanks would roll in and destroy their homes, or when the Revolutionary Guard would break down the walls and "disappear" their sons and torture them for resisting the occupation. Would you then claim, with a straight face, that there was merely a niggling "spectre of racism" in Iran that needed to be dealt with?

As usual, you're splitting hairs hoping to whitewash the brazen immorality of Israel's treatment of the Palestinians.

[ 13 July 2007: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

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Originally posted by ohara:
Michelle once again your blinders planted firmly on your face and with one eye closed you determinely need to see Israel as part of an autocratic racist societal system. So be it, you are what you are.

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Nice try again, but Michelle said multiple times that Israel, Iran, CANADA, and, I don't want to speak for her, but I think it's safe to say that she would say MOST countries have racist tendancies (and if she won't say it, I will).

[ 13 July 2007: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

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Originally posted by evernon:
I must agree here with Jeff. The Guardian story is in my mind suspect. Having been to Iran though I can confirm that the Persian people are cosmopolitan, intellectual and quite beautiful to be with. Their government is a different story.

The small remnants of the Jewish community live in fear and would say anything to take the spotlight off them.Babblers should not be fooled.

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Then why don't they take the opportunity to go to Israel subsidized? Heck, they could probably get a nice house in the West Bank or in some awful apartment bloc in Ashdod. Why stay?

I think the answer is that the remaining Iranian Jewish community may be affirming with the former characteristics of "Iranian-ness" while hoping the government will be changed. Again the issue of how we define national identity and whether or not that identity is coextensive with a particularist religion or narrow ethnicity is at play.

In a way, by affirming their cosmopolitan "Iranian-ness", these Jews are rejecting the collapse of "Jew" into "Israeli" and the collapse of "Muslim" into "Iranian" and all the discrimination those imply. Even in the midst of a certain level of persecution, they are affirming a wider political sensibility than that offered by an ethnocratic "Jewish State" which discriminates in policy and practice against non-Jews. Their affirmation means all the more because of the persecution that they endure. They are choosing an identity which they see as "cosmopolitan" and inclusive over a more narrow Jewish "Israeliness" which is roughly analogous to the narrow Islamic "Iranian-ness" fomented by the regime in Tehran. This in spite of the clear personal and material advantages of denying that identity.

In effect, their ethical position is consistent and fundamentally opposed to the discriminatory practices of the State of Israel AND Iran. Balls out, good for them!

[ 13 July 2007: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

quote:

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Originally posted by jeff house:
[QB]

Now, I am sure that even the pro-Iranian babblers would not argue that Jewish residence in Nazi Germany (when emigration was possible until 1939) is proof that there was no Nazi antisemitism.

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Some babblers need to apologize for Iran, and so find GREAT significance in the fact that 25% have apparently remained in Iran, and still retain their homes and property.

I am glad.

However, many Palestinians live in Israel, and don't leave. Does that prove that Israel is just peachy for Palestinians, or does it prove that they feel they belong there, it is their home, and they won't leave due to politics?

quote:

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Originally posted by jeff house:
[QB]With respect to Iran, of course the question is why 75% of Jews have left Iran since the "Islamic Revolution".

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quote:

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Originally posted by jeff house:

However, many Palestinians live in Israel, and don't leave. Does that prove that Israel is just peachy for Palestinians, or does it prove that they feel they belong there, it is their home, and they won't leave due to politics?

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Or does it prove that it's their HOME?

quote:

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Originally posted by jeff house:
It may be slightly different. But if many Palestinians stay there, and others want to go back, does that prove that they are well-treated there?

Or does it prove that it's their HOME?

Same with Jews in Iran.

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You are saying the treatment of the Jews by Iran is the same as the treatment of Palestinians by Israel?

If Palestinians decide to stay in Israel, that is not evidence that there is no persecution of Palestinians in Israel. It is evidence that they wish to live in their home country, DESPITE persecution.

Now, let us proceed to the case of Jews in Iran. Apparently, the Jews of Iran don't want to move anywhere else; many others have left already, as is the case with Palestinians.

So: what does this prove? Does it prove that things are great in Iran, or does it mean that they wish to live in their country DESPITE persecution?

If Israel were to claim it is a great place because (some) Palestinians wish to stay there, how convincing would that be? I'd call it stupid propaganda for true believers only.

What I liked about this news item was that Iranian Jews were insulted by the offer to abandom their homeland and national identity and head to some other neo-theocracy.

They are declaring that they are Iranians and Jews, and (contrary to Zionist preachings) there is no contradiction between the two. Exactly the way I feel about Canada.

quote:

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Originally posted by jeff house:
As for Cuba, Fidel obviously doesn't have the slightest clue about that country. Most Cubans are not allowed to leave Cuba. Perhaps that's why whole sports teams sent abroad defect en masse.

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Whole sports teams, ya right. Here we go with the, they are shot in the backs as they attempt to escape devil's island schtick. I wonder how many Newf's, New Brunswickers, PEIslanders and Nunavutians can't afford to travel to the next province let alone another country?. You GTA white collars might as well take out U.S. citizenship while yez are doing these bad impressions of rabid Republicans on Cuba. At least you'll know you're in the right country.

You should go to Cuba sometime, Jeff. Because you are a Canadian citizen, and not American, you own the personal freedom to travel to Cuba and see exactly what it is you believe is true of the island. That's right, unlike Michael Moore, you won't be harassed and harangued by Homeland Stupidity bureaucrats for exercising your personal right to travel to Cuba and eyeball the object of chickenhawk's and wannabe chickenhawk's rabid disaffection up close.

And after comparing socialized medicine and education in Cuba with every third world capitalist shithole off Uncle Sam's back doorstep, come back to babble and give us your well informed what-for. Pick up a travel brochure for Dominican Republic and Haiti while you're at it. Bon voyage!

ETA: Cuba's Jews have been offered financial assistance to move to Israel as well as Iran's. Jeff they need your help. Dr. Evil has innocent bystanders trapped on the island, and they are waiting for your rescue.

[ 13 July 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Moshe Feinstein:
I was Kibbutzim for 4 years in the 1980s and heard the stories of those who had relatives in Iran.

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"I was Kibbutzim" - huh? Do you mean you were in Kibbutzim? or a kibbutznik? How many Kibbutzim were you in over 4 years?

quote:

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Jews will only be safe in Israel.

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Bullshit. First of all, Jews are not safe in Israel. Second, Jews will be safe wherever they join hands with their neighbours of all religions, races, ethnicities and fight together against oppression.

Oh, by the way, the Iranians you met must have been the 30% who were enticed to come to Israel. The other 70% of those who left Iran after 1979 almost all emigrated to the U.S. Perhaps you should contact them and warn them that they are not safe and send them directions to the Promised Land.

ETA: I'm so sorry, I re-read your post and realize that you probably never actually met any Iranian Jewish émigrés at all. You just heard stories.

[ 13 July 2007: Message edited by: unionist ]

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Torture was widely used against them in an effort to make them leave their land and homes. It worked, for today there are very few Jews left in Iran. A community that had existed long before Islam has been wiped out.

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No, not "very few" but 29% precisely, like we established above.