Perhaps a work of anthropology or feminist theory?

[ 15 February 2005: Message edited by: thwap ]

Through the seventies, I think that women were still struggling with biological determinism -- rejecting it for themselves some of the time, and yet constructing socio-historical (and sometimes anthropological) arguments about gender difference and the patriarchy.

Just by googling, I found this site that makes that point, and then describes the more complex narratives that began to develop in the 1980s:

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third wave feminism. This period extends roughly from 1980 to the present. Anthropologists had been "haunted" by biological determinism which suggested that gender was a straight forward cause and effect phenomenon from physiological differences. However, these questions cannot be simplified to a cause and effect relationship and the trends since the 1980s propose a reversal of the earlier separation of biology and culture by indicating that sex is also a social category like gender, because people do have social expectations which are based on the physical body. Additionally, more detailed work in endocrinology and physiology made it increasingly difficult to distinguish between biology and cultural factors. The dichotomies stressed by second wave feminist were problematic at times because it was so hard to separate women from men and other factors such as class. This coupled with Said’s Orientalism, as well as postmodern discourse, encouraged an evaluation of representation and as a result a number of non white, non middle class voices were added. Furthermore, being categorized as woman no longer supersedes other distinctions and roles. Class, race, ethnicity, socioeconomic status, religion, etc. are also recognized as important characteristics that diversify the category of women; in other words it is acknowledged that all women do not have the same universal needs and experiences. Feminism pioneered work in representation, recognizing that theories are influenced by historical, political, social, and cultural contexts which brings about questions regarding anthropologists relationships with their informants. Feminism in the 1980s and 1990s has centered on production and work, reproduction and sexuality, and gender and the state (Lamphere 1997; Morgen 1989). It has also been during this time that men in the "Anthropology of Men" began to look at "man" in a similar manner as feminist had been evaluating "woman." In the 1990s women’s studies would be changed to gender studies, reflecting a more comprehensive perspective.

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I'd already been referred to Mead. I'll have to check her out.
I thought I'd ask here before googling because I have no way of separating wheat from chaff when it comes to this sort of thing.
I know there are some feminist scholars who hang out here.

[ 15 February 2005: Message edited by: skdadl ]

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Originally posted by skdadl:
thwap has special dispensation.

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How tragic that persons regard their fathers, brothers, husbands and sons as jerks.

Just for the record if you have had nothing but an endless series of negative experiences with 50% of the population that is very troublesome. I believe the reasons for that are larger than "men are jerks". I have a wonderful husband, father, brother, nephews, brothers in laws, and friends. They are not "jerks" and you have no right to assume that without the benefit of knowing them.

Perhaps someone can help me understand how persons can reconcile such bold hate-filled generalizations with being a person that celebrates anything decent or right.

You would demand a man be banned if he did the same thing.

Knowing thwap, I suspect that he is going to be very happy to modify his attention-grabber as soon as he gets back here, although I have no idea when that will be.

It is perfectly plain that no one who posted to this thread before Hailey was taking any of the views that Hailey seems to be imputing, not just to the thread title, but to some of us.

I mean, what can you do? Sigh.

[Edited to correct dangling participle. ]

[ 15 February 2005: Message edited by: skdadl ]

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Originally posted by Hailey:
How tragic that persons regard their fathers, brothers, husbands and sons as jerks.

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Perhaps someone can help me understand how persons can reconcile such bold hate-filled generalizations with being a person that celebrates anything decent or right.

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Hailey:

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that most men, be they pro-feminist, anti-feminist, or whatever, don't really get offended if they hear a woman saying "men are all jerks". Whatever you think about men's willingness to tolerate such "abuse", the fact is if men don't care about it they're not gonna complain about it, and if they don't complain about it, then women aren't gonna worry too much about saying it.

Yes, I know the "men's rights" crowd thinks it's offensive and damaging to men to hear such misandry freely spouted, however in my experience they are pretty much a self-proclaimed voice on that particular issue. I don't think I've ever heard a man who wasn't a bona fide member of some "men's group" say that he is bothered by women calling men "jerks" and whatnot.

[ 15 February 2005: Message edited by: voice of the damned ]

I considered editing it out but then it wouldn't make sense - the 2-3 posts that followed - so I'll let it sit untouched.

[ 15 February 2005: Message edited by: Hailey ]

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Folks, I's like to sing a song about the American dream. About me. About you. About the way our American hearts beat way down in the bottom of our chests. About the special feeling we get in the cockles of our hearts-maybe below the cockles-maybe in the sub-cockle area. Maybe in the liver. Maybe in the kidneys. Maybe even in the colon, we dont know.

(singing)

I'm just a regular Joe with a regular job
I'm your average white suburbanite slob
I like football and porno and books about war
I've got an average house with a nice hardwood floor
My wife and my job
My kids and my car
My feet on my table
And a cuban cigar

But sometimes that just ain't enough
To keep a man like me interested
(oh no) Uh-uh (no way)
No, I've gotta go out and have fun
At someone else's expense
(Oh yeah)
Yeah yeah
(Yeah yeah)
Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah

I drive really slow in the ultra fast lane,
While people behind me are going insane

I'm an asshole
(He's an asshole)
I'm an asshole
(He's an asshole, such an asshole)

I use public toilets
and I piss on the seat
I walk around in the summertime
Sayin', "How 'bout this heat?"

I'm an asshole
(He's an asshole)
I'm asshole
(He's the world's biggest asshole)

Sometimes I park in the handicapped spaces,
While handicapped people
Make handicapped faces

I'm an asshole
(He's an asshole)
I'm asshole
(He's a real fucking asshole)

Maybe I shouldn't be singing this song
Rainting and raving and carrying on
Maybe they're right when they tell me I'm
Wrong......

Nah!!

I'm an asshole
(He's an asshole)
I'm asshole
(He's the world's biggest asshole)

You know what I'm going do? I'm gonna get myself a 1967 Cadillac Eldorado convertable - hot pink with whaleskin hubcaps and all-leather interior and big brown baby seal eyes for the headlights, yea! I'm gonna drive around in that baby at 115mph, getting one mile per gallon, sucking down Quarter Pounder cheeseburgers from McDonald's in the old-fashioned nonbiodegradable containers. When I'm done suckin' down those greaseball burgers, I'm gonna toss the Styrofoam container right out the side and there ain't a goddamned thing anybody can do about it. You know why? Because we got the bombs, that's why. Two words nuclear fuckin weapons, okay? Russia, Czechslovakia, Romania - they can have all the democracy they want, have a big democracy cakewalk walk through the middle of Tianamen Square and it won't make a lick of difference because we've got the bombs, okay?!

John Wayne's not dead - he's frozen. And as soon as we find a cure for cancer we're gonna thaw out the Duke and he's gonna be pretty pissed off. You know why? Have you ever taken a cold shower? Well multiply that by 15,000,000 times - thats how pissed off the Duke's gonna be. I'm gonna get the Duke and John Cassavetes and Lee Marvin and Sam Peckinpah and a case of whisky and drive down to Texas...

(Hey)
and have a humongous barbecure-
(Hey)
we're gonna go to LBJ's ranch and start a bonfire
(Hey!)
and throw deer and rabbits and cats and old people, and-
(HEY!)
slow drivers and MIckey Rourke and - (HEY)
(You know something? You really are an asshole)
Shut up and sing the song, pal

(He's an asshole)
You empty little simp. I thought I was the asshole-
(He's a real fucking asshole)
And it was him the whole time
(He's an asshole
(He's the world's biggest asshole)
A-S-S-H-O-L-E
(everybody!)
A-S-S-H-O-L-E
Arf arf arf arf arf arf arf
Chimg fump ching puh fluh cluh bing
Ooh ooh ooh ooh
I'm an asshole and I'm proud of it.

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However, IIRC, even sarcastic racism or sexism is considered inappropriate here.

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How tragic that persons regard their fathers, brothers, husbands and sons as jerks.

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Tragic? Hardly.

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You would demand a man be banned if he did the same thing.

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You have said and implied worse about feminists in this very forum and your still here.

But boys are still icky.

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Originally posted by housemouse:
But boys are still icky.

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Well, I said that partly because it becomes immediately clear from thwap's first post that he was writing tongue-in-cheek when he thought up his attention-grabbing title.

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Originally posted by housemouse:
Maybe men aren't jerks after all.

But boys are still icky.

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Not really - it isn't immediately clear that it is tounge-in-cheek, it is clear that it is stupid though.
That thwap, what a jerk.

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Knowing thwap, I suspect that he is going to be very happy to modify his attention-grabber as soon as he gets back here, although I have no idea when that will be.

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Right this very second. (Haven't even read the whole thread yet, but it appears to have gotten nasty.)

ahem.