I'm sure you'll all join me by signing up to this movement en masse, what the heck were we all thinkin'? Telling him when he misses an exit on the highway. Sheesh, silly us.

Sure, my hubby will make the decisions, but I would expect to be able to make my case for my side of things, and if I have a paycheque, I'll contribute my portion to the "our" account and keep what's mine to spend as I see fit (probably on shoes!)

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During the first four years of their marriage, when John was under Laura's control, he never rebelled.

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Not like they started from a healthy give and take relationship in the first place. I've dated domineering and pushy women and it ain't fun. I certainly wouldn't advocate the approach she's taking now but if she's content, who cares.

[ May 28, 2002: Message edited by: CrankItUpA'Notch ]

Seriously though, can you fathom earning your paycheque and handing it to your husband and getting your allowance in return? Can you imagine allowing the power to be turned off because it is not your place to call about it or make sure the bill is paid?

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Hasn't this woman ever heard about a happy medium?

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You hear a bit of happy propaganda about Promise Keepers when you go to an evangelical church - although we didn't hear too much about it, being a more liberal church than most evangelicals. Anyhow, back when I was still with my husband, we had a friend who was a rather misguided soul and spent some time in jail - and he converted to Christianity while there. After he got out of jail, he remained a very faithful convert, turned his life around, etc. Anyhow, one time we went over to his place for a visit, and he told us he joined Promise Keepers! I was horrified, and told him that was the most sexist organization on the planet. He told me I only thought that because I didn't know everything about it. I didn't continue the conversation because I didn't want my husband getting any stupid ideas about joining this group.

But afterwards, on the way home, I got talking to my husband about it, and I told him some of the stuff this group stands for, and what they expect from their wives. My husband almost drooled at the thought. Then I told him that if he ever joins Promise Keepers, he can expect WWIII at our place, because ain't no way I'm gonna be a submissive wife and accept him as the head of the household.

And that was the end of Promise Keepers.

Sadly, people with these ideas really exist.

Hey, just cause I don't buy the I am woman hear me roar stuff, doesn't mean I don't think we should be respected and use our own brain power!

I've had both, a hitter and an emotional abuser - and neither was particularily fun or easy to leave. And both LOVED to control things....

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Hey, just cause I don't buy the I am woman hear me roar stuff,

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Of course, the instant I saw John Gray's name on there, I knew it was going to be complete and utter shite. Stereoypes-R-Us!

I hate the idea that you have to become a stereotype, especially one that is against your nature, to hope for a happy marriage. I don't need anybody to teach me how to be feminine. I know when to cross my legs and how to walk in high heels. I also know how to look after myself, and I don't think that impinges on my femininity one bit. (Nor do any of the men I have known...)

I've actually managed to attract a partner who appreciates assertiveness and competence. Neither of us needs to feel like we're the zookeeper around here. Nobody goes on an allowance. We share what we have, we work on consensus, we respect each other.

And neither of us has had to surrender any portion of who we are. And that's as good as it gets.

So surrender that, Mrs Doyle.

[ May 29, 2002: Message edited by: Zoot Capri ]

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In addition to the general idea of basing a marriage on the will of God, Scripture teaches that the husband should be the spiritual "head" in marriage.

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Hee hee, you should see the diagrams in this essay. Very scientific.

click me!!

[ May 29, 2002: Message edited by: skadie ]

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Y'know, somebody needs to sit this broad down and explain the differences between aggressive, passive and assertive.

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(emphasis added)

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Nobody goes on an allowance. We share
what we have, we work on consensus, we respect each other.

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That sounds like us too Zoot.

Might be that we've each been home raising kids and out working in the show. My wife and I have different likes and dislikes but we realy compliment eachother and find success where alone we would have failed. The head of the household thing is a funny concept to us. When asked we will usually say that we are not the head of the household but we are one of the agents retained to represent the household. If someone wants to sell us something over the phone we like to tell them to hold while we try and locate the head.

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Ah, you've discovered the "science" behind just about every Christian marriage counselling text I've ever read.

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Just because I personally could not live that way doesn't make it an invalid marital/family structure.

Edited because I can't spell feisty, however.

[ May 30, 2002: Message edited by: audra estrones ]

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A Surrendered Single woman is feminine and she appreciates the differences between the sexes. She doesn't need a man in her life, but she wants one. She's straightforward, and makes herself available to men who want a chance to win her heart... You won't hear her say, "we need to talk about our relationship," because she knows better than to ruin things by forcing them. She never refuses blind dates and invitations to parties because her motto is "hey--today could be the day."

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Gawd knows, you wouldn't want to talk about where a relationship is going....

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If you're interested in a surrendered husband, Michelle, you, me, TLM, and the young lad might start up a life together in Utah...

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I love the part about where she never refuses blind dates and invitations to parties, etc. I wonder if they also endorse women not refusing to have sex with the men they date because after all, if he thinks sex before marriage is a good idea, then what is a sweet surrendered girlfriend to do?

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I have to wonder how The Lovely Maria feels about all this.....

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Hee! Are you kidding? She'd skin both of us alive if we seriously proposed this, I bet!

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'Course I am! As a territorial female myself, I'd expect nothing less!

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I wonder if they also endorse women not refusing to have sex with the men they date...

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Same question crossed my mind... Isn't that the sort of situation where you're supposed to say "Whatever you think!"?

If you give up control over who you go out with (they actually say you are supposed to go out with anybody who asks you out, 'cause he just might be Mr Right and you're too dumb to see it at first ), how do you weed out the losers? Crap, that's hard enough to do when you ARE in control....

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I, er, haven't quite dealt her in, yet. Not to worry. A minor hurdle, I'm sure.

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If any of this is going to work, you'll have to call me TBM - The Bodacious Michelle. You know, just to differentiate when you're working with acronyms.

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Well, that probably falls under the heading of "coy flirtation", Zoot, so that's probably okay, although borderline.

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Oh, I'm borderline, all right....

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I don't like SWMBO.

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I sometimes get that title at our house...

Reminds me of a book that my SIL sent for our kids -- it's an adaptation of a Norwegian folk tale (they're from Norski stock, my in-laws) where the lead character has the same name as my hubby. Anyway, this guy is really stubborn and has to do everything his own way (not unlike my dearly beloved) and won't be told any different (lips be still, Zoot!). So he goes to work for a troll, who gives him impossible tasks, but the magical maid in the troll's house takes a liking to the guy and tells him how to get the tasks done. Of course, he tries to do everything his way first, with disastrous consequences until he does what he's told.

Anyway, in the end, the two of them escape the troll, thanks to her wisdom and magical powers, and when he marries her, he promises to obey her for the rest of his days.

The thing that creeped me out the most was the phrase "innappropriately violent or sexual with your kids". I'm hoping that it's just the wording and there isn't appropriate sexuality with the children, but it would appear that in Stepford Land there is appropriate violence toward children, the parameters of which are decided by the husband. And further, your husband beating on your kids is no justification for leaving him. Obviously the wife is much like one of the children - she has no say in how they are raised or disciplined because she has the same status as they do. And boy howdy girls, don't we all just want to be little girls with Daddy to protect us again?

*violent retching sounds*

And she's loving all of this...ayup...what a dream marriage, what a great sex life. Surrender yourselves, ye nagging shrews, and usher in a new era of harmony!

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And boy howdy girls, don't we all just want to be little girls with Daddy to protect us again?

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Interesting point -- Doyle talks about how controlling women become the "mother" role, doing for and ordering.... But what she suggests as a remedy is really just the pendulum swinging to the other extreme, with the patriarchal Papa figure handing out the orders.

I have issues with the verbal abuse thing. I've been there an done that - and I took all of it - he never changed. He did it more. So I don't buy that.

Second, I have an issue that you should surrender as much control as possible - or at least that's what she said she does now. Isn't that being selfish? I mean, to have no responsibilities in a marriage except agreeing with/defending/and loving your husband? Sheesh!

But that article written by the Australian magazine, the other link on this thread?? HOLY what a different story!

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The loony Stepford stuff is whitewashed with mainstream advice about how to have a positive relationship. I shudder to think how many misguided women in unhappy marriages will get sucked into this crap.

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You know, the stupid thing is, most of us who HAVE been verbally abused have already tried exactly what she endorses - tiptoe around the SOB hoping not to set him off. Agree with him about everything so you don't get yelled at or called names. I'm here to tell you, ladies, it DOESN'T WORK. And not only that, but you can only agree with idiocy for so long before the resentment that builds up inside you bursts out.

This woman is an idiot. And I agree, it's awful that there are going to be a lot of women who are in the middle of a horrible relationship who desperately try to placate their controlling, nasty husbands this way.

The other thing that really bugs me... Why should one partner's opinions be more important than the other's?

I firmly believe that BOTH spouses have a right to their own opinions and that they BOTH have the right to express them freely. Anything less is unacceptable, in my opinion.

Of course, if you can learn to have no opinions, maybe you can be happier that way...

(Of course, this is from the perspective of a woman whose husband not only respects her opinions, but values them and expects to hear about them.... A lucky gal, indeed!)

[ May 30, 2002: Message edited by: Zoot Capri ]

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True enough, the woman's a nutjob, but she's a nutjob with a following. Alot of what she says about not being overly-critical and supportive of your mate is good, common-sense advice.

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Righto, it's true, I thought the same thing. HOWEVER. There are no such advocations for the male to do the same. It's aimed at women, and women only, and it's suggesting submission to men simply because they're men. Nuh-uh.

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But after reading that first chapter, what I hear being advocated is a peaceful life together. What's so wrong with that?

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Nothing wrong with that. You're quite right. What's wrong is the inequality.

Perhaps she should do a follow up book catered to men and not just women.

So does "Dr." Laura. Of course you should protect your children, be polite and "do the right thing." Then she spits out a gem like torrets children are faking it for attention, or a 16-yearold girl should be grounded for months because she pierced her nose and is now bound to burn in Hell... Laura's ears are pierced.

Who WOULDN'T want a harmonious family? Nobody. Everyone should try to remove stress and anger from their lives. The fact is, prior to her little apiphany, she was a BITCH to her husband, and this is her redemption.

I wouldn't dream of sniping at my husband about what he wears, how he keeps the car, the hours he works, and how he cleans the house,... all in one day! She couldn't get through ONE date without trouble? SHE has her own control issues then and should recognize these faults in herself and make sensible changes, but completely giving up, and throwing the reins of your life at someone else to handle is unhealthy.

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That is the hook though shelby, she sounds sane at first.
So does "Dr." Laura.

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An acquaintance of mine suggested that if listening to Rush as I drove around during the day was upsetting me, that I move the dial over to where he said was a non political talk show host giving sound advice on everyday living, The Dr. Laura Schlessinger Show. Indeed, one day while Rush and his Dittoheads were wetting their pants over the coming indictment of Hillary and the impending impeachment of Bill, I found that issue—now the backbone of Hate Talk radio—so repetitive I took that friend’s advice and switched the dial over to Dr. Laura.

Within a minute I was mumbling to myself that this woman was to the Right of Attila the Hun. Within five minutes I was screaming at the radio, "SHUT YER YAP you intolerant Right-wing Bitch!" Ten minutes later I was yelling at the caller even louder, "Don’t listen to a word of her crap, she’s a fascist from Hell!" A half hour later it got so bad I pounded my head so hard onto the steering wheel the airbag went off killing everyone under ten in the car. Never had a radio host upset me to that extent, and I have thousands of hours of the worst of the bunch in my pocket.

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only real difference between this woman writing a book and telling women how to live, and women getting together over coffee and advising each other on how to live, is that this Laura made money at it.

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And I find it amazing that those who point fingers and call us right-wing nuts, or any of the other choice names given to us, think they are right about everything and we're just crazy - isn't that a little like the pot calling the kettle black? (not meant as an intolerant comment )

I don't think we need a "ediquette" book anymore - we have to many conflicting opinions on what is right and wrong - politically correct and incorrect, progressive and regressive - can you imagine the fight to come to a consensus on the rules in the new book??

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I got a question, if he knew what a controlling looney tune she was when they were dating, why the hell did he ask her to marry him in the first place?

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Maybe because she told him to.... If he lived with her in her previous state, he can't have much of a spine.

People also have an immense capacity to see only what they want to see, especially in relationships.

[ May 31, 2002: Message edited by: Zoot Capri ]

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The whole thing hinges on the premise that all marital problems are the fault of the wife. If the guy's a verbally abusive jerk, it's because his wife is a nag. If the guy's an irresponsible idiot, it's because his wife's a nag. If the guy's a bad driver, it's because his wife's a nag.

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I really try not to look at my previous relationship with an eye to blaming my ex for everything, but either it was all her fault, or there's something in the human mind that blinds us to our own faults and magnifies the faults of others. Or, we underestimate the effects our faults have on others, and I think both genders are suseptible to this thinking.

"The surrendered wife" reminds me of the funny connection between this particular Christian view, and the sub/dom relationship that "24/7" BDSM couples enter into.

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For Men

So you'd like to ask your wife to read The Surrendered Wife without having to sleep in the doghouse, huh? If you're gentle, it just might work. Here's an approach that has been successful for many husbands:

First, wait until things are going well and you're feeling good together. Tell her you love her when it's like this, and you want the two of you to be like this all the time, that you're not willing to settle for anything less than the best relationship you can have. Tell her that you heard about a book and you hated the title, but that you thought it was an interesting concept, so you read the first chapter on the web. Tell her it says exactly what you feel but don't know how to put into words, and that it's important to you that she read it. Ask her if she is willing to do that for you.

As best you can, I suggest using this wording, as it's designed so that women can hear it without becoming defensive. Once you bring up blame or shame, you're going down the wrong road again.

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Gee under the singles link it seems the requirement for men is to be "masculine" and free of addictive substances, whereas there is a whole list of things women have to clean up on and obey.

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If You're a Woman...
The Surrendered Single Dating service is designed exclusively for women who practice the principles of surrendering in romance. In general, she:

Doesn't try to control who calls her or when, won't try to corner a man into a commitment. She won't insist that he talk about his feelings, tell him how to dress, how to drive or what to eat.
Knows that dating is all about having fun.
Respects men and appreciates the difference between the sexes.
Would prefer to attract a man than to hunt for him.
Enjoys being feminine.
Is smart, strong, accomplished, talented or all of the above, but knows she doesn't have to prove anything to anyone.
Shows her appreciation and gratitude when she's treated well.
Doesn't play games or try to manipulate men (like saying "no" to a date for the coming weekend because the suitor didn't ask before Wednesday).

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With Rockenspiel!"

I loved Kathy Bates' character in that movie. Actually, it was a good movie all around...

Back to the topic. What I found puzzling was the extreme Doyle goes to. Is it not possible to respect your spouse without surrendering? Would it not be better to pursue a partnership?