Here's a pretty horrible statement from Layton:

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The federal government has cut direct funding to the Palestinian Authority. The NDP recognizes the serious dilemma facing Canada and all donor countries that the Palestinian Authority has a President who remains committed to official recognition of the State of Israel and to the Road Map to peace, while his cabinet is composed of Hamas members whose party calls for the destruction of Israel.

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First, you take a snippet from the NDP challenging the government, on their cuts to Palestinians, and try to spin it into something else. And of you for some reason "forgot" to put the link in, to the full text of it so it could not be taken into contextual value.

quote:

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Wed 29 Mar 2006 OTTAWA – NDP Foreign Affairs Critic Alexa McDonough (Halifax) today issued the following statement:

“The federal government has cut direct funding to the Palestinian Authority. The NDP recognizes the serious dilemma facing Canada and all donor countries that the Palestinian Authority has a President who remains committed to official recognition of the State of Israel and to the Road Map to peace, while his cabinet is composed of Hamas members whose party calls for the destruction of Israel.

The NDP supports a peaceful resolution to this conflict that has cost too many innocent lives on both sides of the border. The NDP believes that we must continue to condemn all acts of terror against innocent people, be they Israeli or Palestinian, and that Canada has a moral responsibility to play a meaningful role in advancing peace, through diplomatic and financial means.

It is important to note that direct Canadian assistance has included financial support for judicial reform, housing initiatives, capacity building, education, improving living conditions for refugees and economic development in the Palestinian Authority.

The NDP demands to know how Canada can reconcile its stated goals of supporting and building democracy in Palestine with suspension of direct aid for these important initiatives.

The NDP therefore calls on the federal government to ensure that all direct assistance funding these important programs that are now suspended, be redirected to organizations directly involved in delivery of humanitarian aid and democracy building in the Palestinian Authority. Any net reduction in aid to the Palestinian people is shortsighted and counterproductive

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So, in actual fact here, we have the NDP calling the government to task for cutting funding to Palestine, where were the Liberals on this issue?

A search of their site shows that they have indeed said nothing about government funding cuts to the Palestinisns.

Here is a link to the only things they have said.

http://www.liberal.ca/search_e.aspx?q=palestine&x=11&y=12

Now juxtaposition those 3 nothing comments with the above NDP statements and this:

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Mon 18 Jun 2007 Statement by Alexa McDonough

Mr. Speaker, tragically, the Palestinian unity government has collapsed. Never in 40 years had a Palestinian political body brought together the views of so many Palestinians. All major political movements were included.

Instead of seeing the unity government as a unique opportunity to advance the Israeli-Palestinian peace process, the Conservative government shamefully boycotted, undermining the advocates of compromise, compounding political divisions within Gaza and the West Bank and increasing the insecurity plaguing the lives of Palestinians and Israelis.

The only viable government in Palestine is one that represents all Palestinians. Peace cannot be achieved without Hamas at the table. It is a fraud to pretend otherwise.It is imperative for the Canadian government to provide leadership and push for a unified, multilateral diplomatic front.

The current strife and tragic loss of life in Palestine will only be stemmed when a policy of peace and inclusive dialogue replaces the politics of militarism, boycott and division.

---

The unity government itself was imposed upon Palestinians, through a combination of sanctions, which Canada supported and acted upon, and military force bought and paid for by the US.

There should be no unity government, and nor should the NDP be supporting it. The NDP should be supporting the electoral process which saw Hamas as the victor.

[ 15 April 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:
There should be no unity government, and nor should the NDP be supporting it. The NDP should be supporting the electoral process which saw Hamas as the victor.

[ 15 April 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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Does any Canadian Federal party support Hamas as the victor?

First, you take a snippet from the NDP challenging the government, on their cuts to Palestinians, and try to spin it into something else. And of you for some reason "forgot" to put the link in, to the full text of it so it could not be taken into contextual value."

Ya typical underhanded over spin from the usual Babble Orange baiters. It's really getting sad. But. I guess I'll just have to waste more time on this BS after all, despite Q getting his famous last words again. At least it demonstrates again that it's him who's spoiling for a fight. I'll try not oblige on that, and focus instead on deconstructing some of the lame conflation of free ranging factoids. Thanks Remind, I'm grateful some others here see it too but no need to step in, I'll just get back to this after I'm finished in the garden. See if I can maintain abit more distance this time around.

quote:

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Originally posted by johnpauljones:

Does any Canadian Federal party support Hamas as the victor?

We know the Liberal, Conservative and NDP positions

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However, as opposed to worrying about my "free factoids" why don't you get some of your own. Knowledge is more or less free on the internet, and you can start here:

The Gaza Bombshell

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After failing to anticipate Hamas’s victory over Fatah in the 2006 Palestinian election, the White House cooked up yet another scandalously covert and self-defeating Middle East debacle: part Iran-contra, part Bay of Pigs. With confidential documents, corroborated by outraged former and current U.S. officials, David Rose reveals how President Bush, Condoleezza Rice, and Deputy National-Security Adviser Elliott Abrams backed an armed force under Fatah strongman Muhammad Dahlan, touching off a bloody civil war in Gaza and leaving Hamas stronger than ever.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Erik Redburn:
No they don't obviously, watch the news, visit their websites, listen to what most their members say.

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Thanks for research 101.

On the other hand, since you seem intent on it you could try discussing the content of my posts, as opposed to talking about me, and around what I am saying.

[ 15 April 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

While at this link to the NDP's site we have 11 linked points dealing with it our position. and who knows how many others have been detailed publically over the last few years.

http://www.ndp.ca/site/search?np=0&query=hamas&button.x=1&button.y=9

Moreover, stating theat the Liberals and the NDP are the same on this position is ludicrous, as we can can see by this historic snippet of the Liberal actions in this regard:

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No doubt all the Canadian political parties are watching how the Canadian Arabs and Muslims and their friends respond to the repeated attempt to keep pro-Palestinian activists out of the Federal Liberal Party nomination process. Their reaction will indicate whether this community is a force to be reckoned with or if it can be ignored. There are a number of examples of this campaign against pro-Palestinian activists and their supporters over the past several years.

If the distribution of a letter signed by the Canadian Arab Federation and the Canadian Islamic Congress and many other Canadian Arab and Muslim organizations, including five progressive Jewish groups, are grounds for excluding candidates from running for the Liberal Party this is an attack on all Arabs and Muslims in Canada. It is also an attack on free debate and democracy within the Party.

If Corrigan had little or no chance to win the nomination the Liberal Party would have likely let him run for the nomination. London-Fanshawe has a large Arab and Muslim population and is a very multi-cultural riding. Ab Chahbar another Muslim Arab candidate was also running for the nomination in London-Fanshawe. He also was not "green lighted" and after a long delay he took the hint and dropped out of the race. In the end the nearly 2,000 Arabs and Muslims who had taken out memberships in the riding had none of their preferred candidates running for the nomination.

The three women who were "green lighted" in London-Fanshawe had little or no involvement with the Arab and Muslim community. The women also had little or no demonstrated knowledge of the communities concerns but they alone were left running for the federal Liberal nomination where nearly 90 percent of the voting members were Arabs and Muslims. One of the women candidates, Sandy White, a social worker and former City Councillor did have good relations with the Arab and Muslim community. However, the Liberal Party establishment did not want her to win either. She was considered “divisive” no doubt because of her good relations with the Arab and Muslim community.

In the end only 15% of the Liberal riding members in London Fanshawe voted and the Party establishment candidate, Jackie Gauthier, a radio announcer with no political experience, won the nomination. It remains to be seen if the Liberals can win the riding which has a large Arab and Muslim population from the incumbent NDP Member of Parliament Irene Mathyssen.

But even a candidate that is hand picked by the leader will not necessarily have an easy ride if he is deemed to be anti-Israel. This is the case with Jocelyn Coulon, a political scientist and former journalist who was selected by Dion to run in the October 2007 by-election in Outremont. Soon after his candidacy was announced in July, B'nai Brith Canada asked the Liberal Leader to remove Coulon because of his past stance on Israel.

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The Liberal position is one that casts the Gaza crisis as a humanitarian crisis, the NDP likewise, with the addition of complete acceptance of massive interference of the Amerianca right in the process. The Liberal position is wise enough not to side with Condeleeza Rice's foreign policy. They don't even mention it. Layton backs it.

[ 15 April 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:
The NDP position on Hamas is that we should accept the Bush adminstrations "unity government" and the constitutional coup. Where is the unconditional support fot Hamas as the elected government of the Palestinian people?

The Liberal position is one that casts the Gaza crisis as a humanitarian crisis, the NDP likewise, with the addition of complete acceptance of massive interference of the Amerianca right in the process. The Liberal position is wise enough not to side with Condeleeza Rice's foreign policy. They don't even mention it. Layton backs it.

[ 15 April 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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It would seem you are not so pro-Palestinian after all, as you cannot bring yourself to condemn the Liberal's actions in this regard.

Where does the NDP reject the constitutional coup of Mamoud Abbas?

Abbas suspends articles from Basic Law

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RAMALLAH, June 17 (KUNA) -- Head of the Palestinian Authority Mahmoud Abbas issued late Saturday a decree suspending implementation of three articles of the Basic Law, allowing the new emergency cabinet to take oath without getting confidence and approval of the Legislative Council which is dominated by Hamas.

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quote:

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Statement by Alexa McDonough

Mr. Speaker, tragically, the Palestinian unity government has collapsed. Never in 40 years had a Palestinian political body brought together the views of so many Palestinians. All major political movements were included.

Instead of seeing the unity government as a unique opportunity to advance the Israeli-Palestinian peace process, the Conservative government shamefully boycotted, undermining the advocates of compromise, compounding political divisions within Gaza and the West Bank and increasing the insecurity plaguing the lives of Palestinians and Israelis.

The only viable government in Palestine is one that represents all Palestinians. Peace cannot be achieved without Hamas at the table. It is a fraud to pretend otherwise.It is imperative for the Canadian government to provide leadership and push for a unified, multilateral diplomatic front.

The current strife and tragic loss of life in Palestine will only be stemmed when a policy of peace and inclusive dialogue replaces the politics of militarism, boycott and division.

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Statement by Alexa McDonough

It just collapsed, you know. There was no illegal assertion of power by Mr. Abbas.

[ 15 April 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

Now what did/do the Liberals have to say about Palestinian lands and their plight? Besides, as you can see from the link above, nothing.

quote:

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NDP Foreign Affairs Critic
On the Occasion of the 40th Anniversary of the Six-Day War

This week marks the 40th anniversary of the Six-Day War. Tragically, 40 years later, neither Israel, nor Palestine, nor their neighbours are yet free of its devastating effects. We all know the daily reality of this ongoing crisis – it remains a human rights tragedy, and a heartbreaking failure of international diplomacy.

Vast numbers of Palestinians continue to live a second-class existence in their own Territory, some farms and communities bisected by settler roads, some water resources controlled by Israeli settlers, and their mobility severely curtailed by roadblocks and checkpoints. The majority of Palestinians live in poverty ad thousands of children suffer from preventable diseases, poor neo-natal care, and inadequate nutrition.

...We also gather to deplore in the strongest possible terms, our own government’s punitive sanctions policy, exacerbating the cruel structural inequalities which have plagued the region for 40 years.

These structural inequalities and abuses are unacceptable to Amnesty International. They are unacceptable to Oxfam. And let us remind Canadians, that they are unacceptable to the majority of Israeli human rights groups, such as B’Tselem, Gush Shalom, Yesh Gvul, New Profile, Ta-Ayush, Rabbis for Human Rights, and the Israeli Committee Against Home Demolitions – to name a few. And let me make it clear, they remain totally unacceptable to the New Democratic Party

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http://www.ndp.ca/page/5447

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Canada's opposition parties seem to be well aware of the dangerous path Stephen Harper has taking us on. Alexa McDonough, the National Democratic Party of Canada's foreign Affairs Critic issued a well balanced statement and followed it up with a letter to Peter Mackay our Minister of Foreign Affairs warning him that his government's "desire to appease George Bush is so all-consuming" that they were "prepared to turn a blind eye to the massive destruction in Gaza and in Lebanon, going so far as to deem these Israeli government assaults as 'measured'."

McDonough's statement goes on to say "Even George Bush has been compelled to bow to international pressure and caution Israel to "limit as much as possible so-called collateral damage not only to facilities but also to human lives."

The Liberal Party of Canada's Foreign Affairs critic also echoed some similar concern in his statement. Dr. Keith Martin said "The humanitarian and political situation in the Middle East has become critical.

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They are as you see, given equal measure of respect as relatively equal on this issue, certainly no accolades are awarded the NDP for its forward thinking on this issue.

Canada's new obsession: Moving away from peace to war

[ 15 April 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

Only someone who is extremely partisan for the Liberals could say that your snippet was well balanced between the NDP and Liberals.

Excuse me, but seriously, this:

quote:

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The Liberal Party of Canada's Foreign Affairs critic also echoed some similar concern in his statement.

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quote:

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Alexa McDonough, the National Democratic Party of Canada's foreign Affairs Critic issued a well balanced statement and followed it up with a letter to Peter Mackay our Minister of Foreign Affairs warning him that his government's "desire to appease George Bush is so all-consuming" that they were "prepared to turn a blind eye to the massive destruction in Gaza and in Lebanon, going so far as to deem these Israeli government assaults as 'measured'."

McDonough's statement goes on to say "Even George Bush has been compelled to bow to international pressure and caution Israel to "limit as much as possible so-called collateral damage not only to facilities but also to human lives."

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Nor does Martin's statement of:

quote:

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The humanitarian and political situation in the Middle East has become critical.

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equal this:

quote:

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NDP Foreign Affairs and International Development Critic, Alexa McDonough (Halifax), today condemned Stephen Harper’s pronouncement on Hamas and Hezbollah as inflammatory and destructive to any advancing of peace in the Middle East.

“Stephen Harper’s characterization of Hamas and Hezbollah as ‘genocidal’ displays a profound ignorance of international issues in general and the Middle East conflict in particular,” says McDonough. “Harper's rigid ideology clearly impairs Canada’s capacity to advance peace through non-violent means. It is a tragic contradiction that in the same breath he acknowledges that peaceful negotiations provide the only path forward for enduring peace in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.”

“What irony that this Prime Minister refuses to acknowledge that the slaughter in Darfur is a 'genocide in slow motion', and to commit Canadian troops to a UN peacekeeping force in Sudan, while seemingly content to inflame conflict in the Middle East at a critical time when many other countries are struggling to avert further violence and strife among impoverished and desperate Palestinians,” said McDonough. “A balanced approach would condemn violence on all sides, and affirm the fundamental dignity and the right to peace for all peoples in the region.”

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The criticism has to be directed at the fundamental causes of present problems, i.e., the conduct of Israel and its backers, and dung flinging at the Conservatives is a kind of tilting at windmills on this issue. It's a pretend fight that neither the Liberals nor the NDP seem to have any intention of "winning".

As the NDP have stated this:

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Fri 10 Nov 2006 NDP Foreign Affairs and International Development Critic, Alexa McDonough (Halifax) today urged Israel to end its military offensive and withdraw from Gaza.

“Ongoing military attacks are wreaking destruction and havoc in Gaza. Israeli assaults have caused hundreds of civilian deaths with no improvement in Israeli or Palestinian security,” said McDonough. “Regrettably, the Hamas supreme leader has now declared an end to the 21-month ceasefire with Israel and may risk even more deaths of both innocent Israelis and Palestinians.”

In Gaza, sixty unarmed minors have been killed by the Israeli military since June. On Wednesday, Israeli artillery fire killed eighteen Palestinians, including at least six children in the town of Beit Hanoun. These civilian deaths occurred at the end of a week-long Israeli assault designed to counter militants, who Israeli military claim, have been firing rockets at Israel from the town over the past year.

“The fact that a cemetery under construction had to be hastily opened for yesterday’s mass burial because no other cemetery in town had enough room to bury the family together, speaks volumes about the extent of suffering of civilians in Gaza,” said McDonough.

“The global community must do more than urge restraint,” said McDonough. Canada must support the call at the UN for an immediate ceasefire by all parties, an immediate Israeli withdrawal from Gaza, and deployment of UN troops at the Israeli-Gaza border.”

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Israeli assaults have caused hundreds of civilian deaths with no improvement in Israeli or Palestinian security,” said McDonough. “Regrettably, the Hamas supreme leader has now declared an end to the 21-month ceasefire with Israel and may risk even more deaths of both innocent Israelis and Palestinians.”

In Gaza, sixty unarmed minors have been killed by the Israeli military since June. On Wednesday, Israeli artillery fire killed eighteen Palestinians, including at least six children in the town of Beit Hanoun. These civilian deaths occurred at the end of a week-long Israeli assault designed to counter militants, who Israeli military claim, have been firing rockets at Israel from the town over the past year.

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Also, does the "supreme leader" of Hamas have job title, other than "supreme leader".

[ 15 April 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

Its actually pretty astounding that you would say I am a Liberal Partisan when I am the only person on this board who has made an issue of outing the pro-Israeli clique in the Liberal Party, on a regular basis. But you of course are so stuck in party think that you immediatly think anyone who critcizes the hallowed NDP is doing so from party loyalty, of some kind or another.

You might have a little more success if you were not howling about how anyone who does not absolutely agree that Dips are the answer to all our problems must be some kind of mole for "the enemy".

[ 15 April 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

About this small matter ... the Liberals and the NDP joined in calling for " an immediate ceasefire between Israel and Hizbu'llah" in the Commons Committee. This half-hearted position in which an aerial bombardment of the civilian population of Lebanon is equated with the response by Hizbu' llah is a good example of the apparent symmetry of Liberal and NDP policy.

quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:
Absolutely right. It is not a new thing, high profile Liberals like Carolyn Bennet, Art Eggleton, Joe Volpe and numerous others, actively lobbied within the Federal Liberal party for increasingly pro-Israeli policies, even putting forth a "policy document" parroting well known Zionist tropes about the UN being biased against Israel, and stating that the Canadian government should drop its position that Israeli response to Palestinian militant attacks should be "propotional" and that Israel's war against Palestinian militants is part of the War on Terror, and that Israel should have the righ to act extraterritorialy in the fashion of the US.

Bennet was in fact the Chair of the Liberal Parliamentarians for Israel. It is pretty similar.

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from here: Canadian government forming pro-Israel lobby

Yeah but denounce anyone who criticizes your beloved party as a partisan hack, but don't bother looking in the mirror, this kind of smearing is only going to hasten the demise of the party you think you are helping.

[ 15 April 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

As I mentioned at the time, Alexa made an excellent statement - but the NDP never adopted her tone or her specific calls. They chickened out - never even printed it on the party website.

Here was her full letter to Peter McKay:

quote:

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July 14, 2006

Hon. Peter MacKay
Minister of Foreign Affairs
Lester B. Pearson Bldg., A-10
125 Sussex Dr.
Ottawa, ON K1A 0G2

Dear Minister,

I write to express outrage at your government's response to the destruction levelled by Israel on the innocent civilians in Gaza and Lebanon.

The world has rightly condemned the killings and kidnapping of Israeli soldiers, however Israel's response has been illegal, brutal and disproportionate.

It is more apparent than ever that your government's desire to appease George Bush is so all-consuming, that you are prepared to turn a blind eye to the massive destruction in Gaza and in Lebanon, going so far as to deem these Israeli government assaults as 'measured'.

Even George Bush has been compelled to bow to international pressure and caution Israel to 'limit as much as possible so-called collateral damage not only to facilities but also to human lives.'

Israel, Hamas and Hezbollah must all assume responsibility for their actions. However, it is impossible to ignore Israel's disproportionate response:

* Bombing of the Palestinian Interior Ministry and other government offices:
* Arrest of duly elected Palestinian parliamentarians;
* Bombings of Palestinian infrastructure including a power station that was the sole generator of electricity and running water for hundreds of thousands of Gazans;
* Destruction of the Lebanese airport;
* Air and sea blockade of Lebanon preventing Lebanese as well as Canadian citizens, including many of my constituents, from returning to or leaving Lebanon; and
* Killing of scores of Palestinian and Lebanese civilians, including children.

Canadians expect their government to reflect our strongly held values of fairness, and justice and to uphold our obligations to international law. They also expect their government to defend and protect their citizens overseas. Your inability to reach out to the families in Canada whose relatives are trapped in Lebanon, or to put in place any evacuation plan to bring those citizens home, is irresponsible and unacceptable.

I urge you to set in motion an immediate plan to bring Canadian citizens home, to call on Israel to halt its assault on Lebanon and to negotiate in good faith a resolution to this latest crisis which has already cost too many innocent lives.

Sincerely,

ORIGINAL SIGNED BY

Alexa McDonough, MP Halifax
NDP Foreign Affairs and International Development Critic

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quote:

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:
...What were the substantive differences in policy that summer between the 2 parties on this matter? I'm still listening ...

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Heh. Naive me, eh? I read your description of the letter at the time and figured it would give the NDP a good opportunity to "distance themselves" from the Liberals and Conservatives.

[ 15 April 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

quote:

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Originally posted by unionist:
Actually, remind is right - sort of.
...I think this would have been an effective and principled position for Canada. But the NDP ignored her.

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It is not the NDP's fault that the government did not listen and the Liberals said nothing. Though perhaps I am missing other information..

quote:

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:
That's a useful bit of information, unionist ... although a similar letter 2 weeks later adding an unarmed Canadian peacekeeper by the name of Paeta Hess-von Kruedener to the list of Israel's victims would have been even more powerful ...

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Hey, I agree, but Canada's position at that time was so outrageous, so criminal, that I thought it was appropriate to grasp at straws. Unfortunately, the Layton/Black/Dewar etc. trend prevailed, and cowardice won the day.

quote:

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Originally posted by remind:
However, the Muslim organization that cueball linked to above, referenced said letter of the NDP.

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I don't think it's a "Muslim" organization, I think it is Palestinian Solidarity group. There doesn't seem to be anything particularly "Islamic" about it.

[ 15 April 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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Originally posted by unionist:

Hey, I agree, but Canada's position at that time was so outrageous, so criminal, that I thought it was appropriate to grasp at straws. Unfortunately, the Layton/Black/Dewar etc. trend prevailed, and cowardice won the day.

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How so, you have some linked sources to back that up? I've been looking online last while and I see very little change in the NDP's position Re Palestine and Israel from the post-Hamas Gaza crisis through the Lebanon war to now. Cautious politically crafted words granted, which criticise attacks on civilians on both sides and call for a "two state" solution still, but, as I'd said earlier a greater onus on Israel always.

[ 15 April 2008: Message edited by: Erik Redburn ]

quote:

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As Canadians, we gather here today to decry all forms of violence directed at civilians, in Israel and in Palestine.

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It creates the image of a balanced struggle, where there is equitable loss of life. That in fact, Israeli retaliations are really "retaliations" for Palestinian acts, and not simply attacks against Palestinians.

It avoids for example, the fact that it is the occupation, an act of the Israeli government that is at the root of Palestinian violence. It is the occupation itself that is the ongoing attack of the state of Israel against Palestinians, which foments the violent response from Palestinians.

Any truly balanced statement must forward this point clearly, and without caveat.

[ 15 April 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:
Has it ever crossed your mind that framing the issue in terms of the "cycle of violence" might in itself be representative of bias?

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quote:

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But the controversy did not prevent other MPs from criticizing Israel's actions in the conflict.

"We support the right of Israel to defend themselves but that doesn't mean carte blanche... it was totally disproportionate the way they acted," said Quebec MP Denis Coderre.

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quote:

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Some members of Canada's Jewish community, including some prominent Liberals, are reportedly unhappy with the Liberal Party's position on the Middle East.

Following the position adopted by our interim leader, Bill Graham, many candidates for the leadership of the Liberal Party criticized the position taken by the Harper government — Stephen Harper's unconditional approval of the Israeli government's military strategy, his apparent indifference to the plight of the Lebanese people, and his refusal to call for a rapid cessation of hostilities.

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• supports the right of Lebanon, Israel and all countries in the region to live in peace and security. This is a cornerstone of Liberal foreign policy with regard to the Middle East, a principle reaffirmed by successive Liberal governments. This is supported by U.N. Security Council Resolution 242 which states that, "the basic framework for conflict resolution in the Middle East," involves "the right of all states in the Middle East to exist within secure and recognized boundaries free from any threats or acts of force."
  
  
• supports the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination, and to an independent, democratic and viable state living in peace alongside an independent, democratic and secure Israel – this is known as the "two state solution".
  
• affirms that terrorism from whatever quarter, for whatever purpose, is unacceptable.
  
• supports the combating of racism, hatred and incitement to violence
  
• supports the promotion of democracy, human rights, good governance and the rule of law in the Middle East.
  
• supports strengthening the mandate of the new international force in Southern Lebanon to be a Chapter 7 intervention.
  
• would push for the opening of a humanitarian access corridor to the Gaza Strip to relieve the humanitarian catastrophe unfolding there.

Recognizing that long term security in the region will never come from the end of a gun, a Liberal Government;

• would push for a regional security summit of Middle Eastern States to address initiatives for peace, economic and regional security. This would include a strengthening of bilateral trade relationships between Canada and countries in the Middle East, with trade being used as an incentive to increase cooperation in the peace process;
  
• would increase contributions from CIDA, for the humanitarian needs of the people in the region, and the reconstruction of Lebanon, Northern Israel, and the Palestinian territories.
  

There doesn't seem to me to be much substantive difference to me. It is the very essence of "cautious politically crafted words" that "criticise attacks on civilians on both sides and call for a 'two state' solution."

Liberal Party’s Position on the Crises in the Middle East

Amazingly the Liberal's even refer to resolution 242, which expressly demands the withdrawal of Israeli forces from the occupied territories. 242 being something that has been noticable by its absence from NDP releases on the same topic.

[ 15 April 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

http://www.arabamericannews.com/newsarticle.php?articleid=7046

"More recently, in a telephone conference call with the Canadian Jewish Political Affairs Committee in October, Dion indicated a disagreement with the Bush administration, which wanted to drag out the cease fire process to give Israel more time to crush Hizbullah. "The cease fire," said Dion, "should have come right away."

On the other hand, Dion called Hizbullah "a terrorist group" whose behavior "we cannot accept in any way." He also said that "Israel is very reluctant to kill civilian populations." He called Israel "a democratic state" which "has a right to exist and defend itself" while "Hamas is a terrorist group." He said that Canada could not offer aid to a Hamas-led government unless Hamas changes.

quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:
Oh, and where is Jack Layton saying that Israel is not a "democratic state" or that it doesn't have a "right do defend itself".

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Oh I'm sure Jack Layton's position isn't the same as yours either, and if I were a leader of a national party I wouldn't say that Israel has no right to defend itself either. I would say, like the NDP has, that they should have immediately withdrawn from Lebanon and stop encroaching on Palestinian land, as it just makes things worse for everyone's security. Where did I say they didn't support a two state solution?

[ 15 April 2008: Message edited by: Erik Redburn ]

[ 15 April 2008: Message edited by: Erik Redburn ]

And so that article is really neither here nor there, and furthermore, me making this point was not "shifting" the grounds of debate, but reminding you that is was about the similarity or lack thereof.

[ 15 April 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

"On the other hand, Dion called Hizbullah "a terrorist group" whose behavior "we cannot accept in any way." He also said that "Israel is very reluctant to kill civilian populations." He called Israel "a democratic state" which "has a right to exist and defend itself" while "Hamas is a terrorist group." He said that Canada could not offer aid to a Hamas-led government unless Hamas changes.

The difference between Harper and Dion on the situation is small but real. While Harper defended Israel's "measured response" in Lebanon, Dion questioned whether it might be counter-productive. On the other hand, his attitude toward Hizbullah and Hamas does not appear to be different from Harper's."

In fact the "unity government" is entirely a side-effect of massive interference by the US and Israel in the internal politics of the Palestinian people, and an effort by the Palestinians to stave off direct-supression of the election results. In fact the "unity government" is part of the effort to "change Hamas" forced on Hamas by political preassure and financial sanction, and Mamoud Abbas acting as interlocutor for US and Israeli interests.

The "unity government" should be condemned, rather as the result of direct interference of the internal Palestinian affairs, and they should affirm that Hamas is the duly elected government of the Palestinian people who Israel must negotiate with directly.

By recognizing Abbas as the leader of the "unity government" forced upon Hamas, Jack legitimizes the direct application of imperial power to interfere in the internal political affairs of the Palestinian people. In fact, he legitimizes the effort to "change Hamas," the precondition that Dion cites as necessary for restoration of Canadian aid to the Palestinian people.

[ 15 April 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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The NDP therefore calls on the federal government to ensure that all direct assistance funding these important programs that are now suspended, be redirected to organizations directly involved in delivery of humanitarian aid and democracy building in the Palestinian Authority. Any net reduction in aid to the Palestinian people is shortsighted and counterproductive.

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In fact he did not call for funding to be restored to the "terrorists." He in fact quiet pointedly is not calling for the restoration of aid to the PA for them to be adminstrated by the PA, but "to organizations directly involved in delivery of humanitarian aid and democracy building", in other words third party NGO's for the most part.

He certainly showed no opposition to the "terrorists" being blockaded.

[ 15 April 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

By the way did you every get around to reading that Free Tibet Web site I recommended to you? The one with the facts in it and stuff?

[ 15 April 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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Originally posted by Cueball:
In fact, Jack in no way says he is opposed to the blockade of terrorists. He said:

In fact he did not call for funding to be restored to the "terrorists." He in fact quiet pointedly is not calling for the restoration of aid to the PA for them to be adminstrated by the PA, but "to organizations directly involved in delivery of humanitarian aid and democracy building", in other words third party NGO's for the most part.

He certainly showed no opposition to the "terrorists" being blockaded.

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Stockholm: ... the Liberal/NDP consensus.

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That's got to be an annoying knife in the back after all your efforts, eh, Erik? Stockholm and other apologists for Israeli apartheid seem to be highly satisfied with the current state of affairs. It's a consensus between the NDP and the Liberals.

[ 16 April 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

The truth is that Canadian parties will have very little impact on what eventually happens in Israel and in Palestine.

People who jettison solidarity, much less anti-imperialist solidarity, simply aren't on the left, even if they sometimes pretend they are.

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Solidarity, or internationalism as the Communists used to call it, is a sine qua non for the left. And for the socialist left, anti-imperialist solidarity is a sine qua non for them as well.

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oh what moonshine! As you know, the Communists you mention simply decide who to support, then call the other guys the "imperialists", and then demand solidarity for their side.

For example, Communists used to argue that solidarity with ISRAEL required, because the state of Israel was "anti-imperialist".

They used to support Chiang Kai Shek on that basis, and also Batista before Castro overthrew him.

They always claimed that Soviet invasions, anywhere, whether Czechoslovakia or Hungary or elsewhere, were NOT imperialist, they were "anti-imperialist" because the Soviet Union could NEVER be imperialist!

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Originally posted by Cueball:
Yes, well just as long as we all agree that the NDP and the Liberal position is functionally indistiguishable from each other, and as Stockholm points out this level of consensus extends to the Green Party and BQ. We can at least acknowledge that, as opposed to suggesting the NDP's position is notable on this issue.

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The Situation in Palestine

Hon. Marcel Prud'homme: Honourable senators, [Yasser Arafat] is dead. But as I told the Montreal newspaper La Presse, there are tens of thousands of Arafats among the children in refugee camps all over, who are just waiting for the right moment to take on the cause of freedom and true justice for this nation that has been scorned, mistreated, robbed, humiliated, terrorized, isolated, and stripped of its dignity.

One day this proud and noble nation must be given back what has largely been taken from it, with the complicity or agreement of Canada, since November 29, 1947.

On that day the United Nations adopted a resolution dividing Palestine into two states, one for the Palestinians and one for the Jews, and making the holy places international. The votes were 33 in favour, 13 opposed and 10 abstaining. This resolution was well- prepared and written with the help of a justice of the Supreme Court of Canada, Mr. Justice Ivan Rand. Canada's Under- Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Lester B. Pearson, was one of the main suppliers of the votes needed to adopt resolution 181.

Soon, before the Senate adjourns for Christmas and the New Year, I shall present a notice of inquiry into Canada's role in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Thirty years ago, on November 13, 1974, I was present at the United Nations for the speech by President Arafat who was reaching out to us, but we let him down. I was appointed as a delegate by Pierre Elliott Trudeau who always honoured me with his trust.

Yasser Arafat has left us, and his brother, Dr. Fathi Arafat, president of the Palestinian Red Crescent — which parallels the Red Cross — has gone to join him as well, for he died yesterday.

Honourable senators, I invite you to reflect upon all that my country, Canada, could have contributed to attain peace and justice in that region of the world. Why we were unable to play a true leading role in the resolution of this immense tragedy? Those who have obstructed this role over the years must be named.

I shall conclude by reading what I said to La Presse on Saturday, November 13, from page A18:

We will have to pay if we do not settle the Palestinian situation. I have always compared it to a cancer that will spread over the earth and bring nothing but problems.

I said that in 1970 in Egypt at the conference of parliamentarians for peace in the Middle East, and I repeat it today. Rest in peace, dear friend — Palestine shall live!

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Senate Hansard, Nov. 16, 2004

[ 16 April 2008: Message edited by: unionist ]

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:

That's got to be an annoying knife in the back after all your efforts, eh, Erik?

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No trouble at all, more like another used salad fork waving in my face. I've learned to expect it at political potlucks. Had thought that Q was the only one claiming that Stockholm represented the NDP, something I don't think even old Stock would do, but I can admit to being mistaken on occasion.

[ 16 April 2008: Message edited by: Erik Redburn ]