http://www.promom.org/bf_info/wababf.html

It's a blatantly pro-breastfeeding article, but it raises some interesting questions about our biological selves, equality and gender difference, and whether or not breastfeeding (and motherhood itself, for that matter) diminishes those of us who choose to do so as feminists or makes us better, more empowered feminists. Does it actually tie you down to the traditional role, subject to patriarchal order? If so, can we find a way to rise above it?

Does feminism begin and end with being pro-choice, or does it extend beyond the initial choice?

And the line about breasts being for children, not men, kind of made me shudder. No, sorry, you don't get it. They're part of my body. They're not for men and they're not for children, not unless I say so, and I will say so when I darn well feel like it. I fully intend to breast-feed any children I have, but I don't have to, okay?

That said, yes, we could do a lot better accommodating breastfeeding women. Of course. And it is a feminist issue, because this is one of the issues used to isolate women from the public discourse and blah blah blah.

(I've heard you can breastfeed quite discreetly in public if you cover your chest with a light blanket...)

[ 05 February 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]

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No, sorry, you don't get it. They're part of my body. They're not for men and they're not for children, not unless I say so, and I will say so when I darn well feel like it. I fully intend to breast-feed any children I have, but I don't have to, okay?

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I guess what I object to is the over-politicization of breasts. It's almost as offensive as the over-sexualization of breasts.

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(I've heard you can breastfeed quite discreetly in public if you cover your chest with a light blanket...)

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See, that's part of what I'm talking about... Why should we have to be discreet about it? Who says so? It's a holdover of the patriarchal way of looking at things, keep 'em covered because it's just indecent not to... Isn't that just another form of purdah?

I suppose that's why I see breastfeeding as a feminist issue, although I am not nearly as militant as the article. There are many ways to be empowered, and this is just one of them.

(I always found the blanket got in my way, so I turfed it halfway through my first public breastfeeding experience. Never bothered with it again.)

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Also if society so easily accepts the concept of a penis being for pissing and screwing, why the big deal that breasts are dual function too?

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I think it has to do with proprietary value -- Lots of men see their partners' breasts as "their" territory... Do something where someone else might get a glimpse or use them in a way that does not relate to him specifically, and you've threatened their territory. I've talked to a number of women who've actually dealt with this issue, bizarre as it sounds, and it isn't that uncommon.

I like what's been said about breasts being dual use functionally. We have to face that milk ducts, most of the time, are a few teaspoons of our breast size - obviously, they exist in the form they do for another reason, as signifiers (though what they signify in this culture is so often poisonous to the self and unrelated to nature).

That said, they're mine! I think my partner called them "his" once, and I quickly schooled him on just how far his rights over them extended. And I am fiercely protective of them, both to show or to cover (though mostly to cover, being fairly self-conscious of them).

I like that many women I've spoken to who have breast fed said they gained a greater appreciation of and love for theirs, including physically, and find it really awful that at times women shun breast feeding because of the physical changes to breast shape and size it can lead to, or that women undergo surgeries that inhibit the ability to breast feed because we are so often shown and told that the natural breast is inadequate. In cases like this, I think a radical perspective is refreshing, and a way to break out of conventional thought.

But you can't go about calling women names or making assumptions about why they choose to do or not doing something as personal as breast feeding! To do so shows a complete lack of respect for women as capable agents, and that chafed me in the article a bit. Only pawns of the patriarchy choose not to breastfeed, or to get augmentation, or such.

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Wanting to nurse in a quiet, out-of-the-way space had more to do with feeling relaxed and having few distractions for the baby (ever had one of them turn their head sharply with your nipple still clamped between their gums?)

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Oh yeah!

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many women I've spoken to who have breast fed said they gained a greater appreciation of and love for theirs, including physically, and find it really awful that at times women shun breast feeding because of the physical changes to breast shape and size it can lead to

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That is sad, especially since breast-feeding is apparently quite good for your health (decreases the risk of breast cancer, helps you lose baby weight, natural contraceptive) as well as the baby's...

It doesn't work for everyone, but it's sad that anyone would choose not to do it for the sake of appearance.

Here's another twist on the topic.

I was once considering having kids with a man (so many years ago...) and we were having fun talking names and such. He came out one day and said, "Of coarse you'd breast feed."

Well, I have never felt comfortable with the idea of it, and I can say that I'd give it the old college try, but I can't see myself managing it for very long. (The reasons for which I'd have to think about for a very long time...)

My partner and I got into a long and heated discussion about it. He assumed that because it was good for the baby that I would do it.

Never mind my own hang-ups with the issue, whatever they may be. Never mind the sacrifice. Never mind being tied to this infant 24 hours a day. Never mind the fact that if I am feeding he isn't doing much. Never mind the fact that he is missing out on some serious bonding time with the child.

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It doesn't work for everyone

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I guess that's what I'm saying.

Rosebuds could tell you about her experience with the birth of her daughter, with the nurses practically forcing her to breast feed in the hospital. I'll e-mail this thread to her and if she has the time perhaps she will!

In my first days in the hospital the nurses were really insistent. They were pretty militantly pro-breast feeding and really put the pressure on.

I wanted to talk to them about alternatives, but they either gave me nasty looks ("you awful mother") or pitying looks ("you poor affected child") and pleasantly told me they wouldn't bring me any formula until I'd given it a "real" try.

So for three days I hunched over and squeezed my eyes shut while I tried. I finally started to cry when I realized that I was avoiding feeding her and she was hungry because I hated it so much. I was so guilty and afraid of scorn, I didn't even insist on bottle at that point.

Finally a new nurse arrived in my room one morning. She saw how uncomfortable I was trying to feed my baby, and she just said "You really don't like this, do you".

I admitted (to her and to myself), finally, that I really hated it and that I was scared I would end up starving my child. She said quite simply "Well, you don't have to. It's hard enough for women who enjoy it and want to do it. The best thing for your baby is a comfortable mom. I'll get you formula".

And that's how my daughter ended up bottle fed.

THE MORALE OF MY STORY IS:

I admit that there were some fairly un-feminist things that made me uncomfortable with breast feeding. I associate my breasts with sex, not kids, and seperating the two in my mind just didn't work.

Another big part of it was - my body had "been someone elses" for nine months, and I REALLY wanted it back!

Maybe if I was a "better feminist" I would have challenged myself to try harder. But I didn't. As a result I was happier, and as a result my daughter was happier, and overall I'm pretty proud of doing things my own way after all.

I do comfort myself, however, by saying that at least I was aware of (and able to admit to) the impact of "patriarchal socialization" on my discomfort with the whole thing.

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Maybe if I was a "better feminist" I would have challenged myself to try harder.

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I want to preface any further participation with some clarification. I did not say, or intend to imply in any way, shape or form that one is a "better" feminist for having breastfed, nor does the choice not to breastfeed, in my opinion, diminish one as a feminist. I am also not implying that breastfeeding or childbirth are the only ways women find "true" empowerment, I believe there are many paths to that end.

The question I was so clumsily trying to ask was whether, for those who find breastfeeding empowering, breastfeeding can add, rather than take away from, an individual's experience of being feminist.

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Never mind the sacrifice. Never mind being tied to this infant 24 hours a day. Never mind the fact that if I am feeding he isn't doing much. Never mind the fact that he is missing out on some serious bonding time with the child.

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Now, please don't take this the wrong way -- I'm not saying that your feelings at the time were not valid, they were. However, I'd like to point out that most breastfeeders don't find any of these points, even though most people worry about them, turn out to be the case.

I wasn't tied to either baby 24 hours a day. The blond guy did lots, even though he couldn't feed the baby -- much of the floor walking (while I slept), diaper changes, baths, laundry, cooking, and generally being close by and supportive of my efforts (never underestimate the power of a cheering section). He sang to them, rocked them, held them while they slept. He bonded, all right!

After the first few months, I was also able to give them expressed milk in a bottle so that I could get out on my own for a few hours.

I never felt any sense of sacrifice... Gratitude that I wasn't out of bed to warm a bottle, or worry about contamination of formula while traveling... But I suppose that was because I wanted to do it, and in so doing, found it very empowering.

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Breast pumps. Are they a solution?

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Not for most women. They don't empty the breast the same way, and then your supply starts to go down, and you find yourself struggling with a vicious cycle. You don't get the same let-down reflex, at least not as easily. That, and they are, once breastfeeding is established, much less comfortable (sometimes painful) than nursing.

I used mine to put away some extra in the freezer and for just enough to use in pablum.

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I wanted to talk to them about alternatives, but they either gave me nasty looks ("you awful mother") or pitying looks ("you poor affected child") and pleasantly told me they wouldn't bring me any formula until I'd given it a "real" try.

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That's dreadful. They had no right to treat you that way. I'd have talked to my doctor and been making phone calls to the administration with a message along the lines of "Can you spell LAWSUIT?"

With my older daughter, they tried to take away my kid for the night, warehouse her in the nursery and give her glucose-water to shut her up. I declined, politely but insistently.

I believe they made a note that I was "uncooperative".

[ 05 February 2003: Message edited by: Zoot Capri ]

I take issue with the article in three summary areas - the presumption that a higher education equals better mothers -who care about babies therefore breastfeed as they are more informed/educated. Author frames this piece of nicely constructed classism as women's right to a higher education.

Author equates lack of access to breast feeding and introducing formula as violence against women and while this is absolutely not ok the characterization of this as on the same level of violence against women shows little understanding of issues of violence from my perspective. System inequity & violence certainly exists based on gender, race, etc. but the example she gives is at best a stretch and somehow belittles the issue of violence against women.

Finally I am not sure what feminists have criticized breastfeeding advocates for trying to stop women from making choices to go to work and not bear children or as most women do-both-but I guess without breastfeeding. This she states with certainty and goes on to say it is really not true of these advocates.

As a feminist I am quite certain that any criticism of these "advocates" by me would be based on the judgemental attitude & treatment of women who are not able or choose not to breastfeed. It is interesting to me that this point is under backlash & this backlash is solely from feminists- who then must be careful not to be used by right wing groups??.

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I've read that the first week or so of breastfeeding is the most essential part. Colostrum and antibodies. After that, it's still good to do but it's not as crucial.

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That's not true. Breastmilk grows and changes as the child grows and changes and in fact there is an influx of new antibodies to the milk when the child is around two.

In the early years it provides vitamin K immediately to the new babies gut and breastmilk is the only entity known to actively fight and kill bacteria. Breastmilk expressed into the eye of a child with an eye infection for instance will clear the infection up.

Breastmilk also contains enzymes which help create brain structure, since we are born before our brains are fully developed.

These days, the pendulum has swung as far toward breastfeeding as it was once toward bottle-feeding. There's got to be a happy medium. While I loved breastfeeding, I had no qualms about nursing the baby morning and night while she had a couple of formula bottles during the day. Using a breast pump is a huge pain in the ass. But I have to say that one of the most convenient things about nursing is that you don't have to mix formula and wash and sterilize bottles constantly. Those first few months when I was so weak and tired after the birth I really appreciated less work.

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The best thing for a happy infant is a happy mother.

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You said it!

Maybe it means you've gotta hang out at home if you have one until they've weened off milk and are onto solid foods. However I think from my sterile perspective this is all right. Cause you need to get to know yer kid if you are lucky enough to have one like I'm not.

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Maybe it means you've gotta hang out at home if you have one until they've weened off milk and are onto solid foods. However I think from my sterile perspective this is all right. Cause you need to get to know yer kid if you are lucky enough to have one like I'm not.

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Sorry, but that is such a frustrating misconception! You do not have to hang around home.

I travelled extensively with my breastfeeding baby. I defended grant applications with her in tow (4 weeks old, and a 3 hour drive from home). I researched a documentary. I went out for dinner. I went anywhere I wanted to, and took her with me. Easy, because there was no muss, fuss, spoilage or waiting for bottles to worry about. My SIL, a performer, has travelled all over the world (India, Europe, Mongolia, all over North America) while breastfeeding her kids. Another friend of mine has chosen to continue to work 3/4 time while her babe spends part of the day with his daddy, part of the day with her at the office, and with both of them while she telecommutes.

The problem is not that breastfeeding "ties one down", it's that we have a society that is too goddam inflexible for parents (whether they're breastfeeding or not), but particularly mothers, to have the freedom they ought.

That being said, I don't think women who choose not to should be overtly guilted, but I also don't think you can argue with the nutritional evidence. Breast really is best, and I'm regretful if that injures sensibilities, but it's a fact, not an opinion -- even the manufacturers of formula acknowledge it. I also believe it's in the best interest of the kid to have a happy parent, so I'm not in the camp of "You just have to!", either. It's okay not to breastfeed if you don't want to.

Rant for the day... Done now.

Thanks for the link, Scott. If we'd had a breastmilk bank here, I'd have donated. Unfortunately, there isn't.

[ 24 February 2003: Message edited by: Zoot Capri ]