Documentary on TV tonight about Canadians in Afghanistan.

Here's what John Doyle says:

quote:

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Frontline/World: Afghanistan: The Other War (PBS, 9 p.m.) is American-made but happens to focus a lot on what Canadian troops are doing. Correspondent Sam Kiley and his crew were anxious to figure out exactly what was supposed to be happening after President George W. Bush made a new pledge to have $10-billion spent on "stabilizing and rebuilding" in Afghanistan.

After talking to General David Richards, the supreme commander of all foreign forces in Afghanistan, who is all enthusiasm and optimism about the hearts-and-minds work, Kiley goes to a remote military outpost to get a first-hand look. He finds himself in Camp Martello, where a unit of Canadians is attempting the tricky work of reconstruction and good deeds. They're supposed to be making friends.

We see the earnest Canadians talking to the locals and promising to fix a power generator and a water pump as quickly as possible. What they need are spark plugs. A commander tells the troops to go into Kandahar to get the plugs. What this means, in reality, is 20 soldiers in four heavily armoured vehicles travelling almost 100 miles, and back, on roads that are frequently attacked by the Taliban.

It doesn't work out. The apparently straightforward mission is abandoned. And it gets worse. As the Canadian vehicles travel the roads, they frequently fire warning shots at cars or trucks they think might be about to attack them in some way. In one instance, a warning shot causes a truck to veer off the road, roll over, and there are many injuries among the passengers.

That particular vignette gives us a vivid picture of the bizarre frustrations that are part of hearts-and-minds campaign.

In another scene, we see more of the Canadian efforts. "We're the Canadians, we're the good people," an officer tells a translator to tell a group of local people. The officer is sincere and has a plan to provide some medical care to the locals. But the locals face an appalling situation that can't be fixed by the Canadian niceness. The Taliban are everywhere in the area. The people in the village are extremely wary of going along with anything offered by the Canadians because the Taliban reprisal will be fierce.

---

While trying to befriend the local population, the Canadians:

• Stopped a tanker truck on the highway and forced its driver to turn around and go back, because the Canadians' "sniffer dog" barked at it;

• Spotted two or three people on a hill 3 km away, assumed they were Taliban, and bombarded them with artillery;

• Fired warning shots at a pickup truck which went out of control (see John Doyle above) and crashed; then had to call in a medevac helicopter to take a badly injured Afghan civilian to hospital in Kandahar;

• Organized a free medical clinic for villagers, and ended up turning people away when they ran out of medication;

• Failed to live up to a promise to repair generators and water pumps for the villagers because they couldn't get the necessary parts;

• Pulled up stakes and headed back to Kandahar, knowing that the villagers would probably face reprisals from the Taliban for talking to the Canadians.

The video of the segment will be available online on July 9, 2007.

In the Toronto area, people can catch the rebroadcast at midnight Wednesday night from WNED.

[ 16 April 2007: Message edited by: M. Spector ]

I didn't catch the PRT leaders rank or last name; Nicola -- something. I think you could make a lengthy feature documentary about her experiences. She seemed thoroughly intent on helping the people of the village; and she seemed to have NO support in or beyond the unit AT ALL.

How the hell is it that Canadians can't procure freaking spark plugs nor help repair some pretty standard looking generators. Don't our own vehicles have spare spark plugs. I suspect that Nicola had no back up from her own team or from the top brass. Helping the Afghans my ass.

A particularly disturbing bit was Nicola talking to another soldier; "we can't just call them all (i.e. the villagers) Taliban and shoot them". Which was clearly what the male soldier was advocating. All this took place while, clearly in camera range, another male soldier played a shoot em dead video game on his lap top computer. Not even listening to her.

It all left me with more questions; what was the chain of command? Are PRT leaders simply parachuted into existing fighting teams? Why the UTTER lack of back up for, in this case, Nicola's initiatives?

And what happened to the people of that village who trusted the Canadians, got little if nothing from our soldiers and were, as one soldier states, subject to reprisal from the Taliban for working with us.

Shameful. And of course, the report does not come from our flag waving, chest thumping, utterly useless press people.

Edit: I can not commit about the other points Siren but I am willing to answer any questions.

[ 12 April 2007: Message edited by: Webgear ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Webgear:
I never saw the video, however her name is Nicky and she is a sergeant with the PRT CIMIC team.

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The video should be up at the link M. Spector provided, "shortly".

2,500 Canadians serving and you know, without having seen the documentary, who was profiled? What are there only a handful of CF working in reconstruction?

quote:

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Edit: I can not commit about the other points Siren but I am willing to answer any questions.

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You mean, any question other than the ones I asked in my other post?

quote:

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The acquisition of 100 tanks for a mission that now uses only 17 indicates that the armed forces have persuaded the government that Canada will need a robust tank force in the future. It also suggests that Ottawa has not ruled out extending the current Afghan mission since it is unlikely that the refurbished Dutch tanks will be ready for deployment until 2008, just months before the mandate is due to expire....

The military insisted that 100 tanks was the minimum fleet size required to support a deployed squadron of 20 at any one time. Two 20-tank squadrons were required for operations -- one for deployment and a second for rotation to allow for repair and overhaul.

Another 40 tanks will be used for training at CFB Gagetown in New Brunswick and CFB Wainwright in Alberta. The remaining 20 tanks would be used as armoured recovery, bridge-laying and engineering vehicles.

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[ 13 April 2007: Message edited by: M. Spector ]

I worked with her in the PRT, there was about 300 people there, small group we all knew each other.

Civilian-military cooperation = CIMIC

Kandahar PRT Website

Please read Canada’s Approach link found on the left side.

I did not like the term “Provincial Reconstruction Team” it implies we are there to reconstruct. I think “Provincial Management Team” would have been a better title.

I will answer your questions later, I am trying to determine what you meant in a few of you statements, I am just seeking clarification.

quote:

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The soldier from the 1st Battalion of the Royal Anglian Regiment was part of a patrol that came under mortar, rocket and gun fire, the U.K. Ministry of Defence said in an e-mailed statement. While withdrawing, the patrol fought a two-hour battle with a larger Taliban force, during which ``several'' militants were killed and two soldiers were injured, the ministry said.

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quote:

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Afghanistan's Coalition of the Killing

Warlord Rashid Dostum is a key figure in the National United Front. Group wants to topple Karzai, but has bloody hands.

A Tyee special report from Kabul.
By Jared Ferrie
Published: April 3, 2007

Once enemies in a brutal civil war, a group of Afghan warlords, communists and others have now united in an attempt to wrest political control from Western-backed President Hamid Karzai.
But while members of the newly formed group say they want to reform Afghanistan's government, others are warning that they could trigger a near-genocidal wave of violence if allowed to take power.

The National United Front brings together a hodgepodge of the mujahideen groups that battled for power after defeating Afghanistan's Soviet-backed government in 1992. Also included however, are prominent members of the communist government itself. The Front has even managed to pull in royalists, including the grandson of Afghanistan's former king.

The coalition wants to use its power in parliament to change Afghanistan's political system, according to Sher Abed, a spokesman for the Junbish party, which is controlled by northern strongman Rashid Dostum and is part of the Front.

In particular, it seeks to reincorporate the powerful post of prime minister, which was eliminated in the post-Taliban government and, if reinstated, would severely undercut the role of the president. "This is the purpose -- kick out Karzai," said Abed
..................

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quote:

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Canada's current fighting role in Afghanistan cannot be sustained. The reasons are not military. They are political. The death of eight soldiers this week underlies this stark fact.

First, we are losing. This is not a popular thing to say. Nor is it a reflection on the skill and bravery of Canadian and other allied troops. But it is a hard fact that has to be faced.

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quote:

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The Western media talks about democracy and the liberation of Afghanistan, but the US and its allies are engaged in the warlordization, criminalization and drug-lordization of our wounded land.

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US marines violated international humanitarian law by using excessive violence in reaction to a suicide bomb attack in Afghanistan, a report says.

At least 12 civilians died and 35 were injured during the incident which took place on 4 March in Nangarhar province.

The report, published by Afghanistan's Human Rights Commission, said the reaction was disproportionate.

The special command unit used "indiscriminate force", it says, killing both women and children.[...]

According to the authors of the report, who spoke to victims, police and hospital officials as well as eyewitnesses, the marines fired indiscriminately on civilians and their vehicles as they left the scene.

Journalists said that US soldiers deleted footage, including photos and videos, showing the aftermath of the Nangarhar violence.

---

quote:

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Returning from a recent trip to the Afghan-Pakistan border, I met Karamatullah Ghori, a retired Pakistani diplomat whose last posting was as ambassador to Turkey and who now lives in Scarborough, to be near his daughter and grandchildren, and writes essays and books.

From his Canadian Pakistani perspective, what does he make of our mission in Afghanistan?

"Why are you there?" he shot back. "What's the Canadian interest that's at stake in Afghanistan? When did Afghanistan, or even the Taliban, declare war on Canada? There was one mention of Canada by Osama bin Laden, way back when.

"The alibi is that we are there to prevent the spread of terrorism. In fact, it is by being there that you are creating enmity against yourself."

Can the Taliban be defeated?

"No, they can't be. There's no end to the supply of razakars (willing fighters). For an Afghan, there's no greater calling than taking on a non-Afghan occupying his land, especially a white man who is not a Muslim."

The British and the Soviets may have discovered that but, I ventured, the Taliban may be doing well not because of their DNA but the sanctuaries they allegedly enjoy in Pakistan.

"This is being alleged on the flimsiest of evidence," Ghori said. "Where's the proof?

"The Americans and now the Canadians are asking Pakistan to do what they themselves have not been able to do" – prevent the insurgency in the first place and, failing that, to contain it.

Ghori then tossed a question at me: "What's your red line?"

Meaning? "How many casualties can Canada take? A hundred? Two hundred? Three hundred? What's the ceiling?"

Don't know. Can't know. Perhaps don't want to know.

But we must know, I suppose, as also the answer to his central question: What's Canada's interest in Afghanistan?

---

Pentagon inquiry finds US Marine unit killed Afghan civilians - CSM

quote:

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Ghori then tossed a question at me: "What's your red line?"

Meaning? "How many casualties can Canada take? A hundred? Two hundred? Three hundred? What's the ceiling?"

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I've posed that question more than once. Lately:

quote:

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The US has Returned Fundamentalism to Afghanistan
by Malalai Joya

The following is a transcript of the speech given by Malalai Joya, member of the Afghan Parliament, given at the University of Los Angeles on Tuesday April, 10th:

In the name of Democracy and Peace -

Dear friends, first of all I extend my deep regards and thanks to the friends in the
University of California to provide the opportunity for me to be here and share my point
of view with you and inform you about the ongoing tragedy in my crying Afghanistan.

While the pro-democracy and anti-fundamentalists groups and individuals of Afghanistan are
being marginalized, suppressed and silenced, you give a helping hand to me as a small
voice of my suffering people to speak about the crisis in Afghanistan and terrible
conditions of its people. You in fact play your role in raising awareness on what is going
on in my devastated country.

Respected friends, over five years passed since the US-led attack on Afghanistan. Probably
many of you are not well aware of the current conditions of my country and expect me to
list the positive outcomes of the past years since the US invasion. But I am sorry to tell
you that Afghanistan is still chained in the fetters of the fundamentalist warlords and is
like an unconscious body taking its last breath.

The US government removed the ultra-reactionary and brutal regime of Taliban, but instead
of relying on Afghan people, pushed us from the frying pan into the fire and selected its
friends from among the most dirty and infamous criminals of the “Northern Alliance”, which
is made up of the sworn enemies of democracy and human rights, and are as dark-minded,
evil, and cruel as the Taliban.

The Western media talks about democracy and the liberation of Afghanistan, but the US and
its allies are engaged in the warlordization, criminalization and drug-lordization of our
wounded land.

Today the Northern alliance leaders are the key power holders and our people are hostage
in the hands of these ruthless gangs of killers. Many of them are responsible for
butchering tens of thousands of innocent people in the past 2 decades but are in power and
hold key positions in the government.

Let me list few of the key power-holders of Afghanistan:....

Link to full article

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"Suicide bombings and other insurgent attacks have risen dramatically since 2005, with almost 700 civilians dying last year at the hands of the Taliban and other such groups.

The question of war crimes, too, is a sticky one when the people accused of committing them are fighting to expel invaders from their country. Even if one subscribed to the point of view that the invading forces should be there, pacification may require far more troops than all of the allied countries combined are willing to provide, millions probably, along with some pretty nasty, near genocidal policies in the more recalcitrant regions.

The prudent thing to do here is to admit that Bush and Company's wet dream is really a nightmare and pull out without wasting more lives and resources.

quote:

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Originally posted by Jerry West:
Other such groups may also include the warlords and even NATO/ISAF special forces carrying out black ops to discredit the insurgents.

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Arthur Kent, Skyreporter.

quote:

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NATO strike kills high-ranked Taliban commander

JAMES MCCARTEN AND A.R. KHAN
Canadian Press
May 13, 2007 at 6:16 PM EDT

KANDAHAR, Afghanistan — Coalition forces have dealt the insurgency in Afghanistan a "serious blow," NATO said Sunday as it confirmed the death of the man known to some as the "Butcher of Kandahar" — top Taliban military commander Mullah Dadullah.

Mr. Dadullah, a senior military lieutenant of Taliban leader Mullah Omar, was killed Saturday in the southern province of Helmand during a U.S.-led operation that also involved NATO and Afghan troops, NATO's International Security Assistance Force, or ISAF, said in a statement.

Mr. Dadullah, whose full name was Dadullah Akhund, lost a leg fighting as a member of the mujahedeen insurgency against the Soviet army nearly three decades ago. As a result, he became known among Afghans as Dadullah Lang, or "Dadullah the cripple."

"He has been responsible for the deaths of many Afghans through many means, to include the suicide bombers he has trained in his sanctuary and subsequently deployed into Afghanistan," the ISAF statement said.

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quote:

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Tory MPs block testimony on alleged Afghan detainee coverup
OTTAWA (CP) - Conservative MPs blocked witnesses Thursday from testifying at a Commons committee on the Afghan detainee controversy.

The ethics committee was to hear from a law professor and a freelance journalist about whether the foreign affairs department deliberately withheld scathing human rights reports on Afghanistan.

But Tory MPs Mike Wallace and Scott Reid tied up the committee for two hours, arguing they were not prepared for the witnesses and that the committee should seek legal advice.

An Access to Information Act request by the Globe and Mail for reports on conditions in Afghan jails was turned down by foreign affairs earlier this year, with bureaucrats saying no such records existed.

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http://www.recorder.ca/cp/National/070517/n051725A.html

Ah, nice!

[ 17 May 2007: Message edited by: remind ]

quote:

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Three German soldiers were among nine people killed in a suicide bomb attack in northern Afghanistan.

At least 14 people were injured in the blast which happened when the troops were conducting a foot patrol in Kunduz city, in the province of the same name.

An Afghan interpreter working with the troops was among those killed, and two Germans were among the injured.

About 3,000 German troops are based in northern Afghanistan as part of the Nato forces in the country. [...]

In a separate incident, four US troops were reportedly injured when their vehicle rolled down a steep slope after a failed suicide car bomb attack in Khost, in the south-east of the country. [...]

And in the eastern province of Paktia, near the Pakistan border, coalition troops and Afghan security forces clashed with Taleban militants late on Friday in a gun battle which lasted several hours.

Afghan army officials said more than 60 insurgents were killed in the fighting, though this has not been verified. No coalition or government forces were reported injured.

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If they killed "more than 60 insurgents" and suffered no injuries, then either they massacred defenceless civilians, or they are just lying.

quote:

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Originally posted by unionist:
If they killed "more than 60 insurgents" and suffered no injuries, then either they massacred defenceless civilians, or they are just lying.

The Afghan people will win. Time and justice are on their side.

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Skadl, blogs about it over here at pogge and her conclusion really says it all:

quote:

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The whole neo-con house of cards is collapsing in Washington, and Stephen Harper wants to preserve it in aspic here? Why?

Stephen Harper, his bizarre ministers, and that foul-mouthed insubordinate CDS who hates democracy persist in pretending that there is a battlefield and there is an enemy, even though they are clearly misidentifying both, maybe because they are stupid, maybe because they are lying to us under pressure.

By now, who cares which or why?

We owe Afghanistan, but the first thing we owe Afghanistan is an end to this misguided combat mission.

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quote:

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Lt.-Gen. Walter Natynczyk, the Vice-Chief of the Defence Staff, said Saturday that the way the incident has been portrayed is inaccurate.

In cross-examination involving a lawsuit by Amnesty International, Col. Mike Noonan described an incident in which Canadian soldiers had to take custody of an Afghan man whom they suspected of being beaten by Afghan National Police officers. It was initially suggested the man had been captured by Canadian soldiers.

But Natynczyk said that's not the case and the individual had simply been questioned by soldiers in the village of Zangabad, 50 kilometres southwest of Kandahar.

The incident was used as illustration by Opposition parties that Canadian soldiers had handed prisoners over to abusive Afghan authorities, contrary to assurances by the Conservative government that no such incident had taken place.

Natynczyk said the Afghan man was later picked up by police, and Canadian soldiers, who later came across him, noticed he had been injured.

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http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...0505?hub=Canada

Now this rewording Noonan's testimony is hardly a compare. Nor does it take into account the Foreign Affairs testimony that they did not read the reports of Afghanistan abuses

Noonan's testimony is at this link, see if you think it meets the Lt Generals account:

http://www3.thestar.com/static/PDF/070503_noonan.pdf

quote:

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Transcript of cross-examination of Swords, conducted May 2, which contains admission that a senior advisor at Foreign Affairs did not read documents warning of torture in Afghanistan and admission at Line 137 that Human Rights is not in her job description.

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One can get to the Foreign affairs testimony through here:

http://www.thestar.com/News/article/210197

From BBC news:

quote:

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Seven people have died after Afghan police opened fire on demonstrators in Shiberghan, the capital of the northern province of Jowzjan, officials say.

The demonstrators were supporters of the controversial Uzbek fighter Gen Rashid Dostum.

They were demanding the resignation of the provincial governor. Nato-led troops have been called in. [...]

Elsewhere in Afghanistan, US-led coalition forces say more than 36 Taleban militants were killed after they ambushed a convoy of coalition troops and Afghan police in the southern province of Helmand. [...]

In a 10-hour battle, aircraft were called in, destroying a fighting position and killing more than three dozen insurgents, the US said.

However, a number of local people told the BBC that more than 20 civilians had been killed in the bombing raid, including some women and children.

They said there had been no Taleban in the buildings destroyed and said the ambush of US forces had taken place some distance away.

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[ 28 May 2007: Message edited by: unionist ]

quote:

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Taliban kill NATO soldier in Afghanistan
Associated Press

June 9, 2007 at 2:15 PM EDT

KANDAHAR, Afghanistan — NATO says one of its soldiers died Saturday in southern Afghanistan during a battle with Taliban militants.

However, details such as the soldier's nationality or the battle's location have not been released.

Violent clashes have escalated over the past couple of days in Afghanistan.

Nine Afghan police and 10 Taliban militants, meanwhile, were killed in two separate incidents in southern Afghanistan, while a two-hour gun battle left several Taliban and al-Qaeda militants dead early Saturday.

Also Saturday, a Taliban ambush against Afghan police in Kandahar's Shah Wali Kot district left five police dead and four wounded, said Esmatullah Alizai, the provincial police chief.

In Kandahar city, gunmen assassinated the chief administrator of the provincial police late Saturday, Chief Alizai said.

More to come...

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2) The US WAS attacked on 9/11, due in whole or in part to the seeds of discontent they've sown in their middle eastern manipulative/imperialistic stomping.

3) The only country that should have combat troops in Afghanistan is the US.

4) The US launched a preemptive and unjust strike on Iraq, via fraudulent intelligence manipulations.

5) The US then decided to take many troops out of Afghanistan to aid the Iraq quagmire.

6) Canada, under the Neo-Liberal/Neo-Conservative policies of Martin & Harper, felt their duty was to take on the major combative military role from departing US forces.

7) If the US doesn't have enough troops for their war machine, their only alternative is the draft.

8) Authoritarian and circular "NATO said so" arguments are invalid.

9) Obfuscations such as "some Canadians were doing business in the NYC trade towers" are also invalid non-justifications.

10) By trying to implement a "kill all the bad guys" strategy in the middle east, we simply sow more seeds of extreme discontent and terroristic tendencies by causing destruction of families and waves of repercussive orphanization.

It's possibly part of a Neo-Liberal/Neo-Conservative Christian Fundamentalist prophecy conflict.

Ask yourself why Finland and Norway have never been attacked by the "Islamofascists".

News Article 23 May 2007

[ 09 June 2007: Message edited by: Webgear ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Webgear:
Both Finland and Norway have soldiers in Afghanistan.

News Article 23 May 2007

[ 09 June 2007: Message edited by: Webgear ]

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But they shouldn't, and neither should we. They are fallible, as are we.

But if you employ authoritarian "NATO says so" arguments, you might obey the command.

Norway & Finland have not taken over the PRIMARY COMBATIVE ROLE of the DEPARTING AMERICAN FORCES as Canada has. Also, as I said, they have never historically been attacked by the "Islamo-Fascists".

quote:

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Originally posted by Webgear:
It does not matter where you are in Afghanistan, or what job you are performing, your primary role is combat.

---

It has been well documented that reconstruction units have been attack and continue to be attack.

When you are attack you must defend yourself and take on an aggressive combat stance.

If you do not prepare for the worst scenario (which is combat) each time you leave your base, the you are not prepared for what could happen and that will cost lives.

It is a mindset, you must prepare and relying on your training. There is a phrase “train to fight, fight to live”. If you are not prepared for fight, no matter how unlikely it will happen, and if or when the fight comes to you, you will never win in the worst case scenario.

Every soldier in Afghanistan knows that is a soldier first and then a he takes on his/her secondary role such as reconstruction.

It is a matter of life, you must be prepared to fight. This does not mean that you have to be aggressive or go looking for trouble, it just means that you are prepared both physical and mentally.

You have to rely on your aggressive training.

quote:

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Originally posted by Webgear:
It does not matter where you are in Afghanistan, or what job you are performing, your primary role is combat.

Both Finland and Norway do not have minor roles in Afghanistan, most of their soldiers are command roles in numerous headquarters and at various levels. They are behind the planning of what and how NATO does in the country.

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Your first statement is an inaccurate, highly imprecise smearing obfuscation, as is your second statement.

quote:

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Originally posted by Webgear:
It is a matter of life, you must be prepared to fight. This does not mean that you have to be aggressive or go looking for trouble, it just means that you are prepared both physical and mentally.

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I think that's where the dilemma lies. I consider Canadian involvement in Afghanistan to be tantamount to being aggressive and looking for trouble. Ultimately, some Canadian government will find a face-saving excuse to pull out. No "reconstruction" will have been done. The combat will have left needless death and hatred.

quote:

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Originally posted by Pepper-Pot:

Your first statement is an inaccurate, highly imprecise smearing obfuscation, as is your second statement.

You are also forgetting that they are fallible, and have been pressured by the international Neo-Con/Neo-Lib imperialist paradigm to participate in the authoritarian "NATO says so" argument.

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How is my statement inaccurate? Please inform me how I am mistaken or in the wrong with what I have provide?

I am stating facts.

[ 09 June 2007: Message edited by: Webgear ]

quote:

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Originally posted by unionist:

I think that's where the dilemma lies. I consider Canadian involvement in Afghanistan to be tantamount to being aggressive and looking for trouble. Ultimately, some Canadian government will find a face-saving excuse to pull out. No "reconstruction" will have been done. The combat will have left needless death and hatred.

Mark my words.

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Well that's what happens when you mimic and adopt American foreign policy, as the Neo-Liberal Martin gov't and the Neo-Conservative Harper gov't have both done.

quote:

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Pepper-Pot:
3) The only country that should have combat troops in Afghanistan is the US.

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No, the only country that should have combat troops in Afghanistan is Afghanistan.

quote:

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Webgear:
It does not matter where you are in Afghanistan, or what job you are performing, your primary role is combat.

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I think you need to define primary. If your main job is reconstruction, then that is your primary role, which does not mean that you shouldn't be prepared for combat. Of course whose primary role is what depends on the unit. Even if the primary role of the overall mission is reconstruction that of some sub groups might be combat.

If combat is in support of reconstruction efforts, then reconstruction is the primary role. If combat is the primary role, then reconstruction would be in support of combat.

quote:

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Maybe we should define what combat is or is not?

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One should no longer have to wonder about that definition once one has been in a firefight. Anyone trying to sort out what is or is not combat probably hasn't experienced much of it.

quote:

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Do you understand what my point of view is?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jerry West:

Perfectly, and for the most part you are correct from the point of view of someone stuck in the swamp with the alligators. However, discussing the issue from that perspective is like discussing the mechanics of a bank robbery once one is in the bank and looting it. The real issue is why rob a bank in the first place, or in this case why invade Afghanistan.

---

Jerry

Discussing the issue is sometimes necessary; some people do not understand the military or how it operates.

Obviously Pepper Pot does not, such as his reference to Norway and Finland.

It is like me wading into an issue about unions, I have little understanding about how and why unions exist. I try to understand and teach myself about the topic being discussed hence sometimes people need to discuss the basics of the issue with me.

quote:

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Originally posted by Webgear:

Being struck in strange places is a reoccurring theme for me, makes life interesting.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Webgear:
I sent you a PM about that thread.

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We can bet that if and when the time comes to abandon Afghanistan, Karzai will not suffer the same fate as Muhammed Najibullah or the PDPA holdouts. Karzai will likely be whisked away after seeking refuge at the nearest western embassy.

[ 10 June 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Fidel:

We can bet that if and when the time comes to abandon Afghanistan, Karzai will not suffer the same fate as Muhammed Najibullah or the PDPA holdouts.

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quote:

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Originally posted by unionist:

You're on, Fidel. My money's on abandonment. He just hasn't performed for them the way Pahlavi or Baby Doc or their ilk did. He's toast.

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Just because the Scandinavian region has shifted to the right in their recent elections, and bought into a more Neo-Liberal/Neo-Conservative foreign policy, and authoritarian acceptance of NATO assignments, doesn't erase their history.

Norway and Finland, before the recent rightward political shift in Scandinavia, showed the greatest degree of pacifism, neutrality and peacemaking in the history of mankind.

But they are Fallible, as is Canadian policy, when a trillion dollar US military-industrial complex is sending out waves of energy, demands and obligations in response to their self-induced conundrums.

quote:

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Originally posted by CosmicPositive:

Norway and Finland have secondary support roles. Study the respective number of troops lost by each country, and you'll get a perfect barometer of how much that country is immersed in an aggressive/preemptive front-line military role.

IOW, Pepper-Pot was basically correct.

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Both Finland and Norway do not have minor roles in Afghanistan, most of their soldiers are command roles in numerous headquarters and at various levels. They are behind the planning of what and how NATO does in the country. They are conducting the war.

Open Letter

quote:

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Originally posted by Webgear:
Here is a letter that is being sent to soldiers in Valcartier.

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If Canadian military personal refused to go to Afghanistan, Harper might have a melt down!

But it is an interesting letter alright, but doubt it will do much, they have the Military Prison right there reminding them of where they would go.

quote:

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As armed forces soldiers, you know better than anyone the potential consequences of resisting orders to participate in this mission. But you can refuse to participate in this war. Already, one Canadian reservist has refused to serve in Afghanistan. Daily, US soldiers resist orders to serve in the Middle East, and many have come to Canada to seek refuge.

We write this letter in the spirit of dialogue and debate. We write also to offer our concrete support, in confidence, if you do decide to consider resisting deployment to Afghanistan.

---

[ 11 June 2007: Message edited by: remind ]

quote:

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The International Committee of the Red Cross says the situation in Afghanistan is growing worse with insecurity spreading and the conflict escalating. [...]

It was critical not just of roadside bombs and suicide attacks, but also of aerial bombings by Nato forces. [...]

The organisation's director of operations, Pierre Kraehenbuhl says violence is now spreading right across the country:

"There's been an intensification of the fighting, it has spread to new parts of the country, so it's no longer confined to the south.

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Number 57

quote:

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A Canadian soldier was killed and two others wounded in a roadside bombing attack in Afghanistan about 40 kilometres north of Kandahar on Monday.

Trooper Darryl Caswell, who is with the Royal Canadian Dragoons based at Petawawa, Ont., died when the bomb went off at 6:25 p.m local time near the vehicle he was travelling in.

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[ 11 June 2007: Message edited by: unionist ]

All day I was wondering why you labelled the picture with “Number 57”?

Remind

I believe there could be some French soldiers which may refuse to go to Afghanistan.

I doubt that they would be sent to military prison however they could face punishment depending on the details of each case.

A few points about the letter

“The Afghan people have never attacked Canada or Québec, and had nothing to do with the attacks of September 11, 2001.”

In my view, the writer of this letter indicates that Quebec is its own country, with its own military and foreign policy.

Already, one Canadian reservist has refused to serve in Afghanistan. Daily, US soldiers resist orders to serve in the Middle East, and many have come to Canada to seek refuge.

I believe this individual was already covered in a previous thread, however I find it interesting that the writer of the letter indicates that overseas service is mandatory for reservists which is not the case.

I believe this individual was already covered in a previous thread, however I find it interesting that the writer of the letter indicates that overseas service is mandatory for reservists which is not the case.

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Originally posted by Webgear:
I doubt that aggression will be removed as a human trait. There will always be organizations, countries, groups or individuals that will use aggression or other undesirable traits to benefit themselves and their goals and objectives.

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What if, as it was during the CIA's/Britain/Pakistan/Saudi Arabia's proxy war with the Soviets and Soviet-backed PDPA, that Russia and surrounding countries are the ones actually aiding and abetting the Taliban today in a reversal of support for proxy war ?.

The Soviets also claimed to be doing good things for the people with education, women's rights and land reforms. A lot of people around the world didn't think the Soviets should have been there in Afhghanistan in the 1980's. So what makes this particular western world intervention in that same country more justifiable or noble than previous attempts ?.

[ 12 June 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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In my view, the writer of this letter indicates that Quebec is its own country, with its own military and foreign policy.

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Whether he thinks that or not, the point is valid: Canada has never been attacked by Afghanistan.

I do not believe that Russia is backing the Taliban in Afghanistan however I believe certain individuals and organizations from various countries are supporting the insurgency.

Yes, the Soviets did improve the lives of Afghans, however they like some other countries have over stepped their good intentions and lost track of the goal.

Jingles

What do you think to the U.S. wanting to install nuclear missiles in Eastern Europe at the same time the U.S. and NATO, and SAARC, are mowing SCO's grass in Afghanistan ?. Is this about democracy or imperialist aggression on the other side of the world ?.

What would we say if an Asian country was to install missiles in Cuba and point them at millions of North American citizens ?.

[ 12 June 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]

I do not think so, Russia still has ties into Afghanistan/Iran with weapon sales and other services.

[ 12 June 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]

Do you really think that think Chechnya is to Russia as El Salvador, Haiti and Nicaragua are to USA? I would say they are comparable situations however are different in many areas.

I think the Russians are more desperate to hold onto Chechnya than the USA to El Salvador, Haiti and Nicaragua.

The Russians are currently re-equipping the Afghan army and air force. I am not sure of the cost however I am assuming the Russians are getting their money back.

I could be wrong about what I have written over the last few postings, if I am incorrect, I look forward to your point of view.

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Originally posted by Webgear:
[QB]Fidel I do not believe that Russia is backing the Taliban in Afghanistan however I believe certain individuals and organizations from various countries are supporting the insurgency. QB]

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Originally posted by Jingles:
That sonofabitch O'Connor trying to claim that Canadians killed in 9/11 as justification is worthy of derision. Israel's murder of a Canadian officer last summer is a more valid justification for invasion of Tel Aviv than 9/11 is for Afghanistan.

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I am sure people in Russia government and military have contemplated those questions that you have posted. I am sure Russia would benefit in the short term of having NATO/USA fail in Afghanistan however in the long term would Afghanistan being another possible uncontrollable Islamic state serve the long term goals of Russia.

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Originally posted by Webgear:
Slumberjack I am sure people in Russia government and military have contemplated those questions that you have posted. I am sure Russia would benefit in the short term of having NATO/USA fail in Afghanistan however in the long term would Afghanistan being another possible uncontrollable Islamic state serve the long term goals of Russia. Remember the Russians have fought three wars in Chechnya with insurgents that had a Islamic mindset. I am sure the Russians do not want to have anymore wars of this time with thier current military state.

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Originally posted by Webgear:
Fidel

Do you really think that think Chechnya is to Russia as El Salvador, Haiti and Nicaragua are to USA? I would say they are comparable situations however are different in many areas.

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They're not the same, no. But Central America and Caribbean are considered southern "buffer" countries like someone above described the stani nations in relationship to Russia. Stalinists kept those tribal societies and Islam divided against one another and subdued for too long perhaps. Saudi Arabia and Pakistan have also influenced Afghanistan's recent history, and I don't think those imperialist-militant forces were beneficial to Afghans either. Pakistan's illegit militia government of the 1980's and this one have not been positive influences on democracy in the region.

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Originally posted by Webgear:
Unionist

All day I was wondering why you labelled the picture with “Number 57”?

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Because he was the 57th Canadian soldier to die, and it hardly makes the headlines any more, and I was the first to report it on babble, and I wanted to catch people's interest and have them click on the link.

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Originally posted by Fidel:
It's almost as if they have been stealing moves from the Romans playbook. More nukes in the world are a step backward. But who are these aspiring to be nuclear-armed countries really afraid of?.

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Originally posted by unionist:
....and I was the first to report it on babble, and I wanted to catch people's interest and have them click on the link.

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Two news articles involving in the topic at hand.

Iranian Weapons In Afghanistan

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Originally posted by Slumberjack:
Europe could have been a beacon for the world ...

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Originally posted by unionist:

Because he was the 57th Canadian soldier to die, and it hardly makes the headlines any more, and I was the first to report it on babble, and I wanted to catch people's interest and have them click on the link.

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Originally posted by Webgear:
Fidel

Two news articles involving in the topic at hand.

Iranian Weapons In Afghanistan

Foreign Fighters In Kandahar

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I'm sure the Americans "irrefutable proof" is beyond reproach, as in, they are likely telling the truth about this in particular.

The foreign fighters in Afghanistan are nothing new since the proxy war of the 1980's. By what I know, there are ethnic and religious minorities dotted all over Afghanistan, and surrounding countries like Iran, Pakistan, Uzkeks etc all sent proxy fighters into Afghanistan to protect their associated groups. After the Soviets pulled out, the CIA began bypassing Pakistan's ISI as a conduit for aid and weapons and were funding the most ruthless of the militia leaders and mujahideen directly.

Ahmed Shah Massood, "the Lion of Pansjir", declared war on the Taliban in 1992 and so lost his CIA funding of a half-billion dollars a year. Massood was more popular among mujihadeen leaders in Afghanistan as well as among the larger surrounding nations: Iran, India, Uzbekistan, Tadjikistan, China and particularly Russia.

Funding the Taliban 2003

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Engineer Hamidullah, the Taliban’s former deputy chief of finance, says the Taliban now receive as much funding as they did when Osama bin Laden bank-rolled them before September 11.

"There are some countries that are against the policies of the US and the United Nations, and they support the guerrillas. The most important role belongs to Russia, Iran and Pakistan," he said.

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In an article posted by Jerry West here at rabble/babble a while back, it was described how much more the Taliban are being paid than regular Afghan army soldiers and police. From what I've read, some number of Taliban recruits are not motivated by religious fundamentalism. Some are in it for the pay(like hired mercenaries were in the 1980's) and some just want the imperialists to leave their country.

[ 13 June 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]

Taliban last fall the Taliban were paying its fighters about 200$ per fighter compared to the 70$ Afghan police and army were paid.

So when do you think NATO will pullout of Afghanistan and leave the Najibullah, oops!, I mean Karzai's government to their own devices ?. I'm not wishing failure on the Canadian troops over there. I was under the illusion, perhaps, that they are being setup for failure inadvertently by imperialists who have no real interest in nation building, or that they don't understand how Canada might be perceived as Uncle Sam's bulldog, or rabid imperialist attack beavers or whatever it is they think of our guys today. I also understand though that many Afghanis think highly of Canadians, because those particular Canadians just want to help any way they are able to. You know better than I would how it's going over there.

[ 14 June 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Originally posted by Webgear:
I have notice this trend going back for a while now. I have notice the only time deaths are talked about on Babble are when a number of soldiers died. Such as the six soldiers killed in the LAV III mine strike about two months ago.

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Originally posted by unionist:
Strange comment - what does that mean?

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With the experience of centuries of warfare and a relatively recent 50 year nuclear tripwire posture behind them, the euphoria generated from the fall of communism, talk of peace dividends, and working together as a continent for the common good might have led to a different outcome from re-igniting differences over weapons, shields, and the buildup of eastward encroaching alliances. Other troubled regions might have looked to a historically war racked and hate filled continent for an example of a better way. Only now they would still see the emergence of the same age old divisive strategies. Still seem strange?

[ 15 June 2007: Message edited by: Slumberjack ]

[ 15 June 2007: Message edited by: Slumberjack ]

I do not think Karzai will have the same fate as Najibullah. He is a Pashtun tribal elder, he will be safe, he will be stripped of power however I dount he will be killed.

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Originally posted by Webgear:
I think most Canadian units will be out of Afghanistan by the end of 2009.

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Yeah, dead or alive.

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I do not think Karzai will have the same fate as Najibullah. He is a Pashtun tribal elder, he will be safe, he will be stripped of power however I dount he will be killed.

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He'd better drive defensively:

Dozens die in Kabul bus bombing

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At least 35 police officers died after their bus was hit by a suicide bomber in the Afghan capital, Kabul, senior officer Ali Shah Paktiawal has said. [...] It is the deadliest attack of its kind since the toppling of the Taleban in 2001. [...] The city saw another suicide attack at exactly the same time on Saturday morning. That incident on the outskirts caused at least three deaths.

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Seven children were killed in a US-led coalition air strike against a suspected al-Qaeda hideout in eastern Afghanistan, the coalition has said.

A statement said that a number of militants were also killed in the raid in Paktika province near Pakistan.

The children are believed to have been students at a madrassa, or Islamic school, at the targeted compound.

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Here is a fascinating part of the story. It's supposed to show how barbaric the "enemy" is, but IMO it actually shows the sinister depths to which the U.S.-led propaganda effort will go to whitewash themselves and dehumanize the Afghan people:

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In a later statement, the coalition said it did not believe any children were in or around the compound during the day.

It said other children who survived the air strike alleged that the seven children who died were held inside the building all day and beaten and pushed away from the door if they tried to go outside.

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Originally posted by Webgear:
I think most Canadian units will be out of Afghanistan by the end of 2009.

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I am also believe that Canada will fail in Kandahar.

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Well, that military parade and the PR action that the "Candian Military", aka Harper, has planned, is unfucking real, and I am severely pissed my tax dollars are being spent on this shit!

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Friday's march is part of a blitz by the Armed Forces to boost troop morale and bolster support for the mission on the eve of the Quebec regiments' departure.

On Thursday, 1,700 soldiers in their desert-coloured uniforms will attend a CFL pre-season game between the Montreal Alouettes and Toronto Argonauts at Montreal's Molson Stadium.

Soldiers are also heading to 18 cities and towns across Quebec to hand out flags representing the Afghan mission, as part of a “goodwill” gesture, said Lieutenant-Commander Hubert Genest.

“We often have to explain the work we're doing,” he said, calling the mission “noble” and saying it coincides with Quebeckers' priorities of peace and stability.

“We're trying to engage people so they understand there's a difference between the mission in Iraq and Afghanistan, and that Afghanistan is for a good cause,” he said.

The $125,000 send-off on Friday is the final public event for the troops before they deploy at the end of next month. It begins with a gathering for soldiers and their families at the Quebec City Convention Centre.

Original plans called for the parading troops, under the eye of politicians and dignitaries, to file down Quebec City's Grande Allée and past the Quebec National Assembly. But the Armed Forces are in talks with police about possibly changing the route, another army spokesman said.

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U.S. and NATO kill between 50 and 80 civilians in Helmand on Friday

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The US-led military coalition in Afghanistan says a number of civilians appear to have died in air strikes in the southern province of Helmand. [...]

The mayor of the nearby town of Gereshk told the BBC there were reports of tens of civilian deaths.

Local people who telephoned the BBC said that as many as 50 to 80 civilians had been killed.

They said "foreign forces" had bombed their area for two to three hours late on Friday.

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Up to 80 civilians dead after US air strikes

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Air strikes in the British-controlled Helmand province of Afghanistan may have killed civilians, coalition troops said yesterday as local people claimed that between 50 and 80 people, many of them women and children, had died.

In the latest of a series of attacks causing significant civilian casualties in recent weeks, more than 200 were killed by coalition troops in Afghanistan in June, far more than are believed to have been killed by Taliban militants. [...]

'Every civilian dead means five new Taliban,' said one British officer who has recently returned from Helmand. [...]

A count by the United Nations and an umbrella organisation of Afghan and international aid groups shows the number of civilians killed by international forces was slightly greater than the number killed by insurgents in the first half of the year.

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The author, Jeff Nygaard, relies on figures provided by the US military, to show that in one week alone (Mar 3-9) there were over 300 airstrikes in Afghanistan, largely unreported.

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Originally posted by sgm:

Given this large number of unreported airstrikes, the true civilian toll from such attacks in Afghanistan could well be much higher than the numbers we read in the papers.

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Afghan President Hamid Karzai has ordered an inquiry into air strikes in Helmand province by foreign forces amid disputes over civilian deaths.

A local inquiry into Friday's strikes found 45 civilians and 62 Taleban fighters died but US-led coalition forces and Nato question the figure. [...]

Mr Karzai has ordered a six-man team to investigate more thoroughly the air raids in Helmand province.

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Hmmm, no women...

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John Thomas, a spokesman for Nato's Isaf operation said: "We will co-operate in any way that we can. We don't mean to trivialise any of those who died, but we want to make it clear that we at this point believe the numbers are a dozen or less."

Mr Thomas insisted the military would not have fired on positions if they knew civilians were nearby.

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