Do you think of women with plastic surgery any differently? Do I have a bias that needs reconsidering? Is wanting to alter your body, while knowing the risks and physical pain it will cause, the complications, loss of sensation in the nipples, infection, and many other side-effects, a disorder like anorexia?

It is a difficult question. I have a wealthy aunt who has had her face done so often it looks like a mask - and that is probably "superfluous" even from a superficial, aesthetic standpoint as she and my mum have "a touch of the tar-brush" (as the unfortunate expression goes) and very few wrinkles even in great age.

But where does that stop? Some people might be deeply unhappy about something about their bodies that makes people stare at them or makes it hard for them to get a job or find a companion...

I dunno. I am willing to do that for people who are able to reciprocate -- by which I mean, friends who are very different from me in many ways but are able to be happy for me in my terms, not theirs, when they perceive that it really counts to me.

If there's an expression I feel a bit suspicious of, it's "needs therapy." Maybe yes; maybe no; but I'm not comfortable with friends prescribing to friends. That wouldn't work on me, anyway, not on turf as uncertain as this.

My own attitude to plastic surgery: I would be thinking about my face, actually, not the breasts. It's a sixty-year-old face, after all, and sometimes I think with real nostalgia of how it looked before it ... fell. Like, parts of it really have just ... sunk.

Sometimes it is sad to look at the lines and sags, no question. No question I earned them, though, and besides, I'm too distracted for self-improvement right now. And when I hear other women of my cohort raving about Botox, it's true that I feel twinges of ... scorn? Something.

I don't see this type of augmentation the same way I see reconstructive surgery for women who have had a breast removed. I think that might inspire some of the scorn reflex. I also get weirded out by the notion that it’s acceptable to treat your body like a product and that you are only trying to improve it’s saleability – this would be true for models or actresses not just strippers.

So I don’t think your feeling anything wrong or inappropriate. I think feminists struggle with finding beauty in all shapes and sizes and with what is considered beautiful in society depending on the environment. I think as lagatta mentioned people can be deeply unhappy about a physical feature they have and plastic surgery can fix that for them, or it can lead them to find something else they want to change on the surface when it’s always been underneath where the unhappiness is coming from.

But if this is a person you think is strong and confident I’d go with being happy she’s happy and leave it at that. Why she wants her boobs that hard is surprising but hey, people thinks it’s odd I don’t really like chocolate.

I love the way our bodies relax and age; I think aging is a truly beautiful process - both physically and philosophically.

A friend of mine is a caregiver for elderly people. She recently worked at a home with a woman in her late 60s who had breast implant surgery approximately 20 years ago. My friend (who is no spring chicken herself) was taken aback at the sight of a body that had aged beautifully, normally - except for the breasts, that appeared to belong to another body, and looked like they were in suspended animation, or one of those cut-and-paste drawings we sometimes see in magazine art.

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Originally posted by lagatta:
I can't share your affection for the way bodies "age and relax", but then, I'm a little older than you, and my self-image remains at about age 23 (when I dream, especially) so it is always painful to look at old photos where I had a perfect chinline. (Not that I look dreadful for my age; I don't).

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I had minor cosmetic surgery when I was 16. When I was born, they used forceps and left a permanent mark on my forehead. It got more prominent as I hit my teens, and my parents asked me if I wanted to "fix" it, so I did. I was absolutely terrified, general anaesthetic and all. Anyway, the surgery didn't work. Instead of a straight vertical line, I have a lightening bolt -- the doc tried to blend it into the horizontal grain of the skin by zig-zagging it, but it was no less prominent in the end. The surgeon must have known it was a botch, as he never billed my folks. Some years later, I had my agent, when I was an actor, ask if I'd go back and try to "fix" it again, now that they have laser surgery. But no.

Anyway, I have come to accept my lightening bolt. I think of it as a sign of what lurks beneath. My kids think I'm Harry Potter's cousin.

The sad part of my little scar is that it would have prevented me from being the screen actress I once wanted to be, had I pursued it further. But the up side is it also did me a favour by keeping me out of the serious running as a model or actress because I have greater gifts than that. Oh, yeah, and I tend to wear bangs most of the time.

I have to give my friend credit for researching her surgeon. That eased my mind a bit. She called several former patients from a list before she made her decision. I didn’t tell her she needed therapy, but I did tell her I was happy for her— though I feel conflicted. I’m concerned. She’d never mentioned it to me before and I was surprised, caught off guard. If it had been something she’d talked about before, my reaction might have been different. Maybe she felt like she couldn’t talk to me because I’d expressed negative opinions about it, which I’m sure I had in her presence at some time. And I blame myself for that, for having said something so judgmental about plastic surgery that she felt uncomfortable talking to me and felt she needed to ‘break the news’ over the phone instead of in person. I respect her decision if that is what she really wanted. But I still feel a tinge of something unpleasant. . .

I don't have a problem with plastic surgery in the case of sex-reasignment, cancer, terrible scarring, abnormalities, deformities, birth defects etc. I feel sort of hypocritical for that. But if a woman has a breast removed because of a disease, I think it's fine to get an implant, I'd be the first one at the hospital with flowers. I'm not sure where the "line" is for me, or what determines that line.

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At one time, I was completely aghast at the idea of plastic surgery, but I have now changed my mind dramatically. I am very happy for people who decide they want to go through it and I won't judge them. I will compliment them and tell them they look great when it is all done. Life is too short to be unhappy.

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I have friends who want botox. They would never undergo the risks of surgery for purely aesthetic reasons but the allure of a teeny injection is pretty attractive.

By the way, other than your forehead being frozen, are there any risks associated with botox injections?

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She may very well have made a poor decision in your eyes but to not help her if she develops an infection or worse makes it sound as though you are no longer going to be her friend because of the surgery. Is that really what you want?

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No. And I will help her in any way I can. We’ve been friends for ten years, she’s like a family member to me.

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And shouldn't feminism in practice be a continuum? (I don't know if I put that right.) I mean, is one's philosophy and political thoughts on feminism to be discredited because one shaves one's legs or wears lipstick or gets the boob job?

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I recall about the age of thirty wondering when I would have my face and not merely the face I had inherited, now that I am past 50 I do. I think that the aging of our bodies has a wisdom that our society ignores.

However, sadly, many women are in virtually the same position as your friend -- the pressure's on (for whatever reason) to stay competitive with younger women. If not, say good-bye to your livelihood. I don't blame women for choosing surgery -- after all, it's a tool that allows some to keep food on their table for a few more days, months or weeks. Is this fair or right? No. Is it the reality for many? Yes. I'm sure that at least some of your friend's exuberance is relief that she can keep up -- both literally and figuratively speaking.

[ 28 November 2005: Message edited by: Loretta ]

Consider that cosmetic surgery (as opposed to plastic surgery) is a medical marketplace, and compare it to the clothes and fashion world: there's upscale, there are talented designers with experience; and there's downscale - people with less talent, less experience, who cut corners out of lack of knowledge or just to make a quicker buck. Skin surgery is very similar to sewing, and obviously only the truly rich are going to have access to very experienced surgeons (whose faces and boobs have they been using to perfect their techniques?) and high-quality clinics with proper anesthetic equipment and trained personnel. Everyone else is going to have varying degrees of cheaper quality, and just like poorly designed and poorly tailored clothes, it's really going to show. This is just so sad, in so many ways. It's nothing at all like makeup, shaving, high heels or even hair colour - this is on a whole different (permanent) level.

I'm afraid there just isn't space enough to rant and rail sufficiently against the industry of cosmetic surgery.

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Originally posted by tarot:
I don't have a problem with men commenting, men get plastic surgery too--though I wonder is it different for you? Do you feel pressure to use Rogaine, botox, get glute implants, hell I dunno...

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I do. My hairline started receeding when I was 24 -- it just doesn't seem fair. And I've always felt -- this is completely silly -- that I never got to enjoy my first youth, being in high school and in college, because I was a late bloomer socially. So I think -- maybe it's not too late! Get more hair, get thinner, do something about the face (maybe an elite team of surgeons in Switzland could come up with a plan?).

But I always remember an article I read about the fashion industry's quest to increase the number of men who are "chemically dependant." The idea is that women need their hair products, make-up, facial creams, etc., but men until recently have got by with a bar of soap and a razor. Now, the article said, that's all changing, as more men become emotionally dependant on Rogaine, hair products, and no doubt surgery.

I think this is a good point.

I was injured as a child and for a brief time was the object of much shock, concern and pity. It was not a horrible accident and surgery saved me from permanent scars but not from being 12 years old when boys would run rather than play spin the bottle with me. I know there are many people, including myself, grateful for cosmetic surgery.

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Originally posted by tarot:
I’m usually delighted when an old friend “from the life’ gives me a call. For those of you who didn’t read the prostitution threads, I’m a former prostitute and sex worker. After saying, “Hello” my friend enthusiastically squealed, “Guess what I got?” I was thinking she’d finally put a down payment on a house, or planned that trip to Paris she’s talked about for years. But her excitement was over her new breast implants, which she described as “hard enough to bounce a quarter off.” She works in an upscale strip club. We met about ten years ago, working at the same club. We traveled together for a year. She was one of the women who claimed the business empowered her and I believed it because she was an artistic entertainer who enjoyed the work and made a lucrative living while simultaneously avoiding the traps--drug abuse, supporting a dead beat, compromising boundaries, etc. But upon hearing her “good news” I felt so. . . disappointed. .

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Having been around, as a hustler, (sex trade worker never really thought of it that way before) and all round street kid, and having spent a great deal of my life on the streets, I look at this another way. This lady works in an industry, and it sounds like she has adapted to it really well. But her product was in her eyes perhaps, needing a bit of an update. So as her own marketting agent she decided to upgrade, and do some small renovations. I remember when a friend of mine talked about tying off, he was a well paid male stripper. I was appalled, but he felt it was part of his business. Now that he is retired, he worked until he was nearly 40 he is still working out 7 days a week, because he still thinks of his body as part of his business. If this lady ran a fruit stand and decided on new shelves you wouldn't have blinked.

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But in my opinion wearing lipstick and shaving are not comparable to implants.

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If this lady ran a fruit stand and decided on new shelves you wouldn't have blinked.

Try looking at it as just that, and the good thing is if she doesn't like them, they can be removed....

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Not easily, and not without serious disfigurement and/or follow-up surgeries to correct the expansion of skin, scar tissue, etc, especially if the implants make her significantly larger than she was.

I don't buy that it's the same as investing in new shelving. You change your mind about the shelves, it takes a little work an some lost money -- it's not going to require a major renovation. Besides coming off sounding very flip about a very personal part of one's anatomy.

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[ 29 November 2005: Message edited by: Zoot ]

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Originally posted by Zoot:

Not easily, and not without serious disfigurement and/or follow-up surgeries to correct the expansion of skin, scar tissue, etc, especially if the implants make her significantly larger than she was.

I don't buy that it's the same as investing in new shelving. You change your mind about the shelves, it takes a little work an some lost money -- it's not going to require a major renovation. Besides coming off sounding very flip about a very personal part of one's anatomy.

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[ 29 November 2005: Message edited by: Zoot ]

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...doing something she feels boosts her appearance is more an investment in her business...

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I agree with Itchy, not about the shelves, though, as that comparison is a little weak. But the boosting business was my first thought when I read the first post.

Unfortunately, I think that a lot of people discount/ignore the very real risks of surgery and may tend to think that "it's just cosmetic surgery, what can go wrong". The proliferation of TV shows showing sad people made happy by plastic surgery and not showing what can go wrong is very misleading. And the women who have umpteen facelifts and end up looking like cats can be easily discounted as "nuts" rather than examples of what can go wrong.

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Originally posted by Zoot:
But there is a fundamental difference between working out in order to be buff and surgically augmenting part of one's body. So, even though the rationale may be that it's a good business investment, comparing it to shelving and working out really minimizes the risks that are taken with something like this. That's why I found your comment about shelving really inappropriate/unfortunate.

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I am sorry if I offended your sensibilities. I somehow don't see how I am minimizing what to me was probably a business decision. If the lady was earning her living as a stripper, a loss of "perkiness" is a financial problem. Imagine if you looked down and saw that the "perkiness factor" was off a tad, and your paycheque might be going down, and maybe unemployment was a possibility. What is your reaction. Adding a little something so things were back the way you wanted would come as a huge relief. How great would that little thing seem to your life. That is what you are missing in this.

I find them attractive in all sizes, but then again, I don't judge a women from the size of her breasts.

Maybe she needs her brain agumented.

[ 30 November 2005: Message edited by: Blind_Patriot ]

In the early 1950's, I had extensive reconstructive plastic surgery done to the right side of my head. While the results are in no way realistic, it is surprising how many people don't notice the work unless studied up close.

Today, body modification is "in" be it shaving hair, tatoos or cosmetic surgery. Could the almost daily ritual of a man removing his natural beard be considered body modification?

[ 30 November 2005: Message edited by: Bobolink ]

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They are turning themselves into objects by doing so, thus sacrificing their values.

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I realize that the whole concept of "objectification" has been santified by universal use, but I would have to class myself as an "objectification" skeptic. I don't think that relating to people's physicality necessarily implies that you are dehumanizing them. Recognizing that someone has a body does not necessarily mean discounting the fact that they have a mind.

It seems like a pretty uncritical use of the Cartesian mind/body duality; mind and spirit good, body bad. In the revised version, it goes; if you're delighted by the body, you must be ignoring, or minimizing, or downplaying the person's mind and spirit.

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Originally posted by Ichy Smith:
My friend spends 3 or 4 hours a day, trying to make his body look like he did at 20. At 48 it becomes very very difficult to look 20.

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I don't know. I am very back and forth on this issue, changing my mind. In a way, I understand it from an economic perspective. The idea that it will improve performance on the job. But I wonder if that's really true. The implants themselves cost 5-10K. Then she cannot work for aprox 12 weeks. So, what appears to look like a 7K investment (I'll just take the average), is really a 25K investment after the recovery time. If there are complications, it is more. From my experience, a "top earner" doesn't make her money with her looks, they help, but she's first a persuasive sales person, with or without the implants.

The information I've found on the subject is as wishy-washy as my own attitude, with some of the studies saying that the industry of cosmetic surgery fudges the results to make it look more safe and on the other extreme saying the risks are there, but minimal. Objective studies would help.

I can't help but think that if an athlete gets caught using steroids, it's the end of their career, yet women (especially in the sex industry) are encouraged to get this surgery. Maybe steroids are more dangerous and it's not a good comparison, I'm not sure. But the idea that society cares more about our athletes health than they do about women is a bit disturbing.