quote:

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Originally posted by Stephen Gordon:
What is it that bothers you - that Cubans are forbidden from those hotels, or that some Cubans object to being forbidden from those hotels?

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That they want to go into the hotels and that apparently they see this as an important issue - that they be able to participate in the whole obscene resort experience. It disturbs me. It seems like a kind of rot has set in.

[ 07 February 2008: Message edited by: RosaL ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Stephen Gordon:
Me neither; I was just curious. It wasn't clear from your previous post.

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quote:

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Originally posted by RosaL:

That they want to go into the hotels and that apparently they see this as an important issue - that they be able to participate in the whole obscene resort experience.

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quote:

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Originally posted by unionist:

Pretty harsh. Obscene?

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quote:

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Originally posted by RosaL:
So I find resorts obscene. And I find much of our culture obscene. It's not a popular view

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quote:

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Originally posted by Stephen Gordon:

Of course, you could just decide that poverty was obscene.

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quote:

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Originally posted by RosaL:

Yeah, I expected that reaction. I find excess in the face of poverty obscene. So I find resorts obscene. And I find much of our culture obscene. It's not a popular view

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quote:

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Originally posted by unionist:

I respect your viewpoint. I'm just personally not capable of that degree of saintliness. If I thought self-deprivation and self-flagellation might dispel world poverty, I would definitely give it serious consideration. Meanwhile, I think people visiting Cuba as tourists helps Cuba survive in the face of the obscene U.S., and that's good enough for me.

---

Well, I think the real solution is revolution

ETA: It was only last year that I found out about these resorts. Someone showed me slides of the accommodations, the food, the pools,the entertainment, and told me about the wristbands that indicate you get unlimited food and drink. Then they told me about the armed guards and the fences to protect the people inside from impoverished masses outside. (This was in the Dominican republic.) I suppose it's somewhat less extreme in Cuba but this is what they have to compete with.

[ 07 February 2008: Message edited by: RosaL ]

quote:

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Originally posted by RosaL:

Well, I think the real solution is revolution

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quote:

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Originally posted by ChicagoLoopDweller:
Are the resorts in Cuba privately or publicly owned?

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quote:

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Originally posted by unionist:

Let me know when the proletariat has taken over Regina.

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quote:

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Originally posted by RosaL:

heh. I'm trying! I don't think we can have "socialism in one city" though.

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Does Regina qualify as a city now?

quote:

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RosaL: I don't think we can have "socialism in one city" though.

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There was a joke in the Soviet era, told by disgruntled apparatchiki, in which the development of Marxist theory was mercilessly mocked. The joke goes something like this ...

"Revolutionary theory has gone through a long history. Karl Marx and Fred Engels initially developed the theory of revolution on a general, world scale. Following the Great October Socialist Revolution, the theory of socialism in one country was postulated and substantiated in practice. Further developments by Eric Honnecker (in regard to Berlin) led to the idea of socialism in one city. Finally, Nicolas Ceausescu successfully developed the theory of socialism in one family. "

quote:

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:
It must have been my delivery. I need to work on that.

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quote:

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Three prisoners in the gulag get to talking about why they are there.

"I am here because I always got to work five minutes late, and they charged me with sabotage," says the first.

"I am here because I kept getting to work five minutes early, and they charged me with spying," says the second.

"I am here because I got to work on time every day," says the third, "and they charged me with owning a western watch."

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quote:

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Originally posted by unionist:

Probably my fault. I skipped straight to the punch line.

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quote:

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:
For those who don't know: Nicolas Ceausescu's "version" of socialism had all sorts of members of his immediate family playing key roles in the state; his wife was this, his siblings were that, and so on.

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"How goes it?" said the Russian.

"Not bad," said the foreigner.

quote:

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:
The shortest joke I ever heard was about the Westerner who went to the Soviet Union and had a conversation with an apparatchik.

"How goes it?" said the Russian.

"Not bad," said the foreigner.

The Russian burst out laughing. "That's hilarious," he said.

---

That's brilliant.

ETA: The one below this is pretty funny too. Why can I never remember jokes?

[ 07 February 2008: Message edited by: RosaL ]

[ 07 February 2008: Message edited by: RosaL ]

No, skip that.

Not all jokes are Soviet. And some are true.

Einstein, it is said, was once asked by a layperson to explain how radio works.

"Well," he said, "first I need to explain the telegraph. The telegraph is like a giant cat. The cat's head might be in New York, and the cat's tail in London. You pull on the tail in London, and the cat meows in New York. That's the telegraph."

"And the radio?" asked the layperson.

quote:

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Originally posted by martin dufresne:
Why do I suddenly feel I'm back in the Fifties?

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quote:

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Originally posted by RosaL: Why can I never remember jokes?

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Jokes are just stories that are funny. If you like to tell stories, then it should be easy enough to practice telling the story a few times, get your delivery down pat, and then it will stick with you for a long time.

Stalin, furious, bellowed: "Arrest the engineer, and send him to Siberia!"

Khrushchev retorted: "Rehabilitate him, and start the train again !"

[ 08 February 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]

quote:

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He[Cuban student, Eliecer Avila] said he found out how efficiently and rapidly the machinery of the media acted against the island by distorting his statements to link them with other issues.

"One feels powerless, wanting to explain to the whole world that the international media is saying a complete lie, twisting the meaning of our opinions," he added.

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quote:

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Originally posted by RosaL:
Here's the cuban response

You can watch the video here. (It's in spanish, naturally.)

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For example, when this fellow says on the video ""That means a worker has to work two or three days to buy a toothbrush," he ACTUALLY meant to say: "Hail to the Communist Party of Cuba which has brought us prosperity!"

quote:

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Thanks very much for that, RosaL. I do hope Bacchus will help publicize the response.

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quote:

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Originally posted by jeff house:
Yes, it reminds me a bit of the police officer who complains that the video taken of him acting illegally "doesn't tell the whole story".

For example, when this fellow says on the video ""That means a worker has to work two or three days to buy a toothbrush," he ACTUALLY meant to say: "Hail to the Communist Party of Cuba which has brought us prosperity!"

That's the thing about the capitalist media, they just don't capture "reality".

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I think he was saying that there are problems and that changes have to be made, but that he wants to make them within socialism, that he was talking about an improved socialism, rather than its replacement by capitalism.

[ 12 February 2008: Message edited by: RosaL ]

quote:

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Originally posted by jeff house:

For example, when this fellow says on the video ""That means a worker has to work two or three days to buy a toothbrush," he ACTUALLY meant to say: "Hail to the Communist Party of Cuba which has brought us prosperity!"

That's the thing about the capitalist media, they just don't capture "reality".

---

Alarcon tells him that when he lived in New York, certain stores would chase Latinos out because they dodn't belong in such a store.

And here I thought that such behaviour by a store is reprehensible, and intolerable! I thought that such behaviour is actually illegal, both in the US and elsewhere!

quote:

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Originally posted by jeff house:
It's interesting to hear Alarcon's response when the fellow asks why Cubans cannot have access to certain tourist areas and hotels...

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quote:

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I think he actually meant; "that is not fair or right but compared to my cousin in Haiti under the capitalist system at least I can dream of owning a toothbrush."

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Ha ha! Let's all make up things that this young man "actually meant", and that way we can avoid what he SAID.

quote:

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Originally posted by jeff house:

Ha ha! Let's all make up things that this young man "actually meant", and that way we can avoid what he SAID.

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quote:

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I think it was a non sequitur - or a tangent. But those are common in human conversation.

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I think you guys don't apply the same standards to Alarcon as you do to Western leaders.

quote:

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Originally posted by jeff house:
For example, when this fellow says on the video ""That means a worker has to work two or three days to buy a toothbrush," he ACTUALLY meant to say: "Hail to the Communist Party of Cuba which has brought us prosperity!"

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Jeff, you must have been a human sponge soaking up all that propaganda in our western news media during the cold war. Imagine PEI or Vancouver Island having to endure a medieval siege and cutoff from trade with the rest of Canada since the 1990's.

quote:

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Originally posted by jeff house:

I think you guys don't apply the same standards to Alarcon as you do to Western leaders.

For him, it's a "tangent", but if Bush or Blair or someone like that said that, you would correctly identify it as totally unacceptable.

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Well, if I thought access to the resorts was some kind of "human rights" issue, then I would find it unacceptable. But I don't think it's that kind of issue. (Let's not go there again.) As it is, I just wish he'd given a better answer (assuming that his answer was as reported, which is not certain by any means).

ETA: I've heard Bush go off on all kinds of tangents. I wouldn't criticize him for that unless I thought he was trying to avoid an important issue.

You seem to think I'd never criticize anyone who was part of the cuban government. I would.

[ 12 February 2008: Message edited by: RosaL ]

[ 12 February 2008: Message edited by: RosaL ]

quote:

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Originally posted by jeff house:

Or, we could minimize poverty in Cuba by comparing it to Bangla Desh! "Listen kid, so it takes you three days to earn enough to buy a toothbrush! We Canadians want you to compare yourself to Bangla Desh or Haiti! as long as
SOMEONE is worse off, we can keep justifying your situation to ourselves.

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Haiti is the proper comparison because they are so close both geographically and historically. Except one of them is an evil communist regime that hasn't produced a perfect society and the other is a democracy on its way to building a Just Society. In the meantime it is not fair to compare Haiti to Cuba, why? If you compare Cuba to other similar countries in the region they come out as better than the imperialist controlled countries.

quote:

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Originally posted by Fidel:
Haiti is the "freest trading nation in the Caribbean", according to Warshington.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddql_STBwVY

who talks about the "elections". He says that he walks into school, and there is a row of photos of the candidates, and he has no idea who any of them is, but he's supposed to vote for them anyway.

He says that unless changes are made "somos solamente unos hipocritas en la libertad".

quote:

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Originally posted by jeff house:
Babblers who speak Spanish may also like to listen to another student, here,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddql_STBwVY

who talks about the "elections". He says that he walks into school, and there is a row of photos of the candidates, and he has no idea who any of them is, but he's supposed to vote for them anyway.

He says that unless changes are made "somos solamente unos hipocritas en la libertad".

ie, "we are only hypocrites about liberty"

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quote:

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Originally posted by jeff house:
Well, someone is a hypocrite, that's for sure.

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Someone is fond of Kraft Dinner. Someone is a liar. Someone is a musician. Someone is a hypocrite. All true.

If you're accusing me of hypocrisy, I'll have to ask you to explain. I imagine the cuban electoral process could use some improvement, as could cuban democracy. But I think "our" electoral process and "our" democracy is qualitatively worse. We disagree about this. That doesn't make me a hypocrite.

[ 12 February 2008: Message edited by: RosaL ]

Anyone who closes his eyes to a person complaining that he can't buy a toothbrush is a hypocrite.

quote:

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Originally posted by jeff house:
Well, let me be more explicit. Anyone who pretends that Canadian elections and Cuban elections are similar is a hypocrite.

Anyone who closes his eyes to a person complaining that he can't buy a toothbrush is a hypocrite.

Anyone who excuses pathetic crap like Alarcon's statement is a hypocrite.

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quote:

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Originally posted by jeff house:
Oh, are there babblers who hold such views?

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Sorry - what views?

ETA: must walk dog. back later.

[ 12 February 2008: Message edited by: RosaL ]

quote:

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But I think "our" electoral process and "our" democracy is qualitatively worse. We disagree about this. That doesn't make me a hypocrite.

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quote:

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I've felt much the same, during municipal elections. I have no idea who any of them are. Mind you, that's my fault. Federally, it hardly matters anyway. There's virtually no real choice, the population is politically ignorant, and people make their decisions on the basis of tv commercials or those cardboard cards that are left in the mailbox. Unless changes are made "somos solamente unos hipocritas en la libertad".

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quote:

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It makes you a Stalinist.

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[ 12 February 2008: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Bacchus:

Care to explain this dig?

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quote:

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News flash!!! Jeff House has a hate on for all things communist.

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quote:

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Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
News flash!!! Jeff House has a hate on for all things communist. Boy you are tiresome but at least consistently tiresome.

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quote:

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Originally posted by jeff house:
Yes, even though working people fought to establish our electoral system and its freedoms, the thing to do now is support a Communist dictatorship as providing superior democracy.

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quote:

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It is interesting to note that the labelling of people was a Stalinist tactic.

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Huh? If you support the Stalinist "electoral system" are we allowed to say you're a Stalinist?

See, on babble we can't call people "communists" even if they name themselves Lenin and support every Communist government and party from here to North Korea.

That would be redbaiting. And then again, when I used the word "hypocrite" as the Cuban student did for those who support their "elections", well, that was no good, either.

quote:

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Originally posted by jeff house:

So, what word may we use to describe those who genuflect to every Communist apparatchik on the block?

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I don't, though. And your suggestion that I would defend anyone who calls him/herself a communist is just wrong. (Ask my friends! Well, I know you can't do that. One of the limitations of online communications is that you see only a small slice of someone's life.) This is insulting to me. It implies that I lack intellectual and moral integrity.

[ 12 February 2008: Message edited by: melovesproles ]

quote:

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when I used the word "hypocrite" as the Cuban student did for those who support their "elections", well, that was no good, either.

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But when she points that out, you deride her as a hypocrite. Attacking her for acknowledging the obvious is an act of hypocrisy, in my mind.

quote:

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Huh? If you support the Stalinist "electoral system" are we allowed to say you're a Stalinist?

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Hitler was elected to office in Germany through an electoral system very close to our own. The German parliament, the Reichstag, voted to give Hitler extraordinary powers. So by your logic, anyone who supports the system of parliamentary democracy must be a fascist. Do you support that system?

quote:

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So, what word may we use to describe those who genuflect to every Communist apparatchik on the block?

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What do we call those who apologize for a system of democracy that is all just pretend? I call them fools and charlatans.

[ 12 February 2008: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]

quote:

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Originally posted by jeff house:
Well, let me be more explicit. Anyone who pretends that Canadian elections and Cuban elections are similar is a hypocrite.

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And just look what the Cubans are missing!!!

You have been warned more times than I can think, about what's called red-baiting, but which I will describe as using labels like truncheons to swing at people. You can do much better than this, and you can engage people on the level of ideas. If you determine they don't have that many, then you can always post around them. Heck, I'm not always in total disagreement with you, but I can debate better that that.

Jeff "communism" doesn't really exist anywhere anymore. And it's never going to make a comeback. Labelling people with that term here(when you KNOW there isn't a "communist" party anywhere that has the ability to enforce the kind of robotic control that you're so paranoid about)is pointless.

quote:

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Originally posted by Fidel:
Hurry back eh.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
Hitler was elected to office in Germany through an electoral system very close to our own. The German parliament, the Reichstag, voted to give Hitler extraordinary powers. So by your logic, anyone who supports the system of parliamentary democracy must be a fascist. Do you support that system?

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What seems most likely is that Eliecer Avila made the understandable decision to recant rather than risk further disapproval or repercussions from the Cuban government.

quote:

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Originally posted by John K:

What seems most likely is that Eliecer Avila made the understandable decision to recant rather than risk further disapproval or repercussions from the Cuban government.

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Gee John K, where did you read that? This is what I gleaned from your link:

quote:

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When he learned that his questions to Alarcon were being twisted as part of an international “campaign,” he contacted “el companero Cesar” (Cesar Lage, son of Cuba’s vice president and a student leader) to arrange a ride back to Havana so he could set the record straight. The fact that students are taking a critical look at Cuba’s policies and questioning Alarcon, Avila says, is due to a desire “to build socialism better, not to destroy it.”

Avila didn’t disavow the strong opinions in his questions to Alarcon. But now the critic is seen in the Revolution’s embrace, rejecting the idea that he had ever stepped out of it.

---

quote:

---

There was no arrest, he says in the video, he simply went home for health reasons. When he learned that his questions to Alarcon were being twisted as part of an international “campaign,” he contacted “el companero Cesar” (Cesar Lage, son of Cuba’s vice president and a student leader) to arrange a ride back to Havana so he could set the record straight. The fact that students are taking a critical look at Cuba’s policies and questioning Alarcon, Avila says, is due to a desire “to build socialism better, not to destroy it.”

Avila didn’t disavow the strong opinions in his questions to Alarcon. But now the critic is seen in the Revolution’s embrace, rejecting the idea that he had ever stepped out of it.

So what actually happened?

If you’re still asking, I don’t blame you.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by John K:
Those of us hoping for a 'Prague Spring' in Cuba are once again disappointed.

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You and the CIA both, JK. While the Soviet imposed government in Prague kept a lid on dissent and western-based terrorism, a number of brutal U.S.-backed dictatorships murdered hundreds of thousands of their own people in Guatemala, El Salvador, Haiti, Nicaragua and so on. OSS/CIA recruited thousands of former Nazis to run the spy ops out of West Germany. When the Soviets didn't invade Western Europe, "stay behind units", terrorists actually, were paid to provoke the Soviets into reacting militarily.

quote:

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Originally posted by John K:

What seems most likely is that Eliecer Avila made the understandable decision to recant rather than risk further disapproval or repercussions from the Cuban government.

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quote:

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Originally posted by RosaL:

Why does it seem most likely?

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quote:

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Originally posted by John K:
Gee Unionist, why are you distorting what was said on the blog I linked to by failing to include the sentence immediately preceding the quote you posted?

The blogger was providing a summary of Avila's statements in the second video, not reporting them as fact.

---

When are you going to share with us the source of your speculation that Avila "RECANTED" something rather than risk "disapproval or repercussions"?

quote:

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Originally posted by Fidel:

Apparently the students developed a fearless attitude toward the brutal repression just long enough to betray their own feelings toward the revolution. And now Dr Evil will throw them all in the gulag, or make them pay for it by other cruel and unusual punishment. Maybe Fidel will hand them over to torture specialists at Gitmo Bay or some such.

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quote:

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Originally posted by RosaL:

Yes, I tend to think the fact that the students felt free to address Alarcon the way they did is a pretty strong argument in Cuba's favour.

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Exactly. And look at John K's linked article. Even in the alleged "recanting" interview:

quote:

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Avila didn’t disavow the strong opinions in his questions to Alarcon.

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Some "recanting", eh? The kid must be really brave, as the Castroite thugs are obviously holding his entire family hostage on death row...

[ 13 February 2008: Message edited by: unionist ]

quote:

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Posted by Rosa L: Why does it seem most likely?

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Because that's how one party dictatorships like Cuba operate.

quote:

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Originally posted by John K:

Because that's how one party dictatorships like Cuba operate.

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Now there's a candid response. "Never mind the facts - I know how these places operate!"

quote:

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Do I think that Avila felt pressured to pledge his allegiance to the one party state? Yes I do. Whether the pressure he felt to 'set the record straight' was self-inflicted (knowing he was risking his future by being deemed a dissident), from an external source, or a combination, is more difficult to discern.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by John K:
kropotkin, whatever its other faults (and there are many), the US is light years ahead of Cuba when it comes to protecting free speech. The US is even ahead of Canada in this regard.

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Under ordinary circumstances (i.e., when the ruling elite don't feel threatened) a lot of the "ideological conformity enforcement" work in capitalist countries is left to business. The presupposition is that if it's done by the state (which, at least in theory, represents the people), it's a restriction of freedom but If it's done by business, it's an exercise of freedom. (Am I afraid for my future if I am deemed a dissident? Yes.)

[ 13 February 2008: Message edited by: RosaL ]

quote:

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Originally posted by John K:
kropotkin, whatever its other faults (and there are many), the US is light years ahead of Cuba when it comes to protecting free speech. The US is even ahead of Canada in this regard.

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The Florida student who tried to ask questions out of turn was not only tasered but made to go in front of a Judge and apologize and tell everyone how bad he had been. Free speech my ass.