http://www.trentarthur.info/archives/000243.html

It was taken from my University's newspaper - Trent University is known for its share of queers and femminists and so forth. So, I am certainly far from the first of its now-alumni that haven't touched a razor for a while.

I quit shaving in Feb of 2004, and am quite delighted. My leg hair went from being stubbly to soft and fluffy when fully grown-in, much like boy leg hair. Much the same happened with the armpits. I stopped quite suddenly, after having a semi-epiphany in the shower: why am i doing this, anyway?

1. Shave my face
2. Don't shave, but merely "groom" my face (same difference)
3. Go "natural", which I don't believe many women like. In fact, I'll bet more guys would overlook a hairy leg than gals who'd overlook this:

And Gord forbid that a guy have a hairy back at the beach.

[ 01 December 2004: Message edited by: HeywoodFloyd ]

As the writer saw in the German film she watched, many women in that country aren't particularly bound by it.

In the Middle East, waxing, plucking and threading are common methods.

Hair removal through the ages isn't a particularly deep site, but gives you an idea of how old the obsession is, for both men and women.

Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't.

I have a lot of long dark leg hair, and I just can't convince myself it looks good with a bathing suit or skirt in the summer.

BTW, before I say anything on this, folks might be interested to know the irony of the band ZZ Top in the photo is that the name of the only shaved-faced guy is the drummer Frank Beard!

Most women I have met don't have much hair on their legs, except mainly around the ankles. But they do shave, including their armpits.

When I saw this post, I thought I would ask my wife and daughters about it. They said removing hair from their legs, although they don't have much to start with, and their arm pits makes them feel more attractive (I agree it makes them look more attractive), cleaner and healthier and more comfortable, especially when wearing stockings or hosiery.

One has taken to using a lotion in the shower that is designed to remove light hair on the legs. The other two want to try it. She says it is easier on her skin and less time consuming than shaving it.

Women don't have much body hair, other than the obvious places, so it seems that removing the hair would be more suitable for women than for men.

My wife doesn't not like it at all when I forget to shave. She does not like beards or mustaches at all, and neither do my daughters. So, I don't wear one. I don't like moustaches either, and I certainly can live without a beard if my dearly beloved doesn't like it.

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Originally posted by HeywoodFloyd:

Epilady. It's not just for women anymore.

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[ 01 December 2004: Message edited by: HeywoodFloyd ]

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Okay. I'm going to ask the guys who want to talk about their hair issues to start a thread somewhere other than in the feminism forum.

Please.

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Why is female armpit "unclean"? What the jeezly sense does that make?

Anyway, I haven't used a razor since 1997.

[ 30 November 2004: Message edited by: audra trower williams ]

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They said removing hair from their legs, although they don't have much to start with, and their arm pits makes them feel more attractive (I agree it makes them look more attractive), cleaner and healthier and more comfortable, especially when wearing stockings or hosiery.

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Whenever I hear someone say its "healthier," I get more than a little angry. Its nonsensical, particularly in light of the hazards associated with many feminine beauty rituals (how many razor cuts, carcinogenic chemical applications, wax burns, etc. does it take to make someone think this might not be done for "health" reasons???)

And the "cleaner" is usually fairly out there as well - most people in western society are overzealous in this area, and if you are bathing regularly, a little hair isn't a big deal.

I've kept the fuzz everywhere, gotten rid of it everwhere, and done most levels in between. I prefer the aesthetic of smooth legs and underarms for myself, particularly due to the above mentioned brunette issues, but can't be bothered most of the time, particularly when I'm not wearing skirts or tank tops regularly.

I've had partners with preferences, but haven't felt a need to bow to their wishes once we've been together for a bit - its a damn nice leg, hairy or not. In a relationship, when I shave or otherwise remove it, its because I prefer it (it does feel nicer to slip into silk sheets with smooth legs - also after removing callouses from feet).

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Originally posted by Klingon:
K'pla! PS: Now that we're on this subject, I am a bit curious as to why the human body needs an accumulation of hair on the armpits. doesn anyone know of a scientific explanation of this? I can see why we have hair in other places--but the armpit seems strange.

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Whenever I hear someone say its "healthier," I get more than a little angry. Its nonsensical, particularly in light of the hazards associated with many feminine beauty rituals (how many razor cuts, carcinogenic chemical applications, wax burns, etc. does it take to make someone think this might not be done for "health" reasons???)

And the "cleaner" is usually fairly out there as well - most people in western society are overzealous in this area, and if you are bathing regularly, a little hair isn't a big deal.

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To be fair, Klingon didn't say it WAS cleaner or healthier, just that his wife and daughter feel that way after shaving. It doesn't need to have a basis in fact.

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I'm going to ask Klingon to stop beginning every post in the anti-racism and/or feminism forum with a variation of "this isn't an important topic to discuss".

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P'Tachk! Hey, lighten up there Madam Moderator. Maybe it's the bad translation from Klingonaase to English, but I certainly don't recall starting all of my posts with various claims that the topic isn't important. I think if it really wasn't important, I wouldn't bother to comment.

Anyway, I do recognize that every topic here is important to some folks, otherwise it wouldn't be here in the first place. I will request Khut’ lutch Shavim dach (understanding or reprieve) from those of the Rabble if I offended anyone and offer quv bey'qop (truce/friendship).

Like everyone else here, I have my views and experiences to contribute to the discussion. And I do get my back up when I see something I think is really objectionable.

But the truth is the main reason why I read the threads on the feminist forum is to check out and learn about what those much wiser than I on the subject have to say. The fact I may disagree with some of what different folks say is secondary.

Anyway, I don't mean to offend anyone by saying the shaving issues isn't as important as others. For my, and the impression I get from those I work and live with is that it's not a high priority for their attention.

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Why is female armpit "unclean"? What the jeezly sense does that make?

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I donno! I don't think there's anything unclean about it. I just reported that the women in my family said shaving makes them feel cleaner and they think it's healthier. I didn't ask them why and they didn't tell me. Would you like me to ask them and then report back?

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Anyway, I haven't used a razor since 1997.

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MajQa! But the warrior in me must ask: do you mean you haven't used one on yourself as a maintenance tool, or haven't used one on someone else as a weapon?

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but hey, if that's how they feel, who am I to argue?

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To make this out to be some sort of taboo subject for men strikes me as fairly silly.

I think it's okay for men to comment on this. I'm also fairly certain my mother would agree.

[ 30 November 2004: Message edited by: Zoot ]

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Originally posted by swirrlygrrl:
I'm with Blake on this (

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Beware ye weak and timid! Zoot fears no censorship or cultural taboos. Let ye learn from her bravery.

Blake: cut the guilty liberal baloney, will ya. It gets really arthritic after a while. I for one learned to respect women from an early age, and tend to treat them at times with a modesty and delicacy that sometimes approaches old style chivalry (or so I have been told).

But I also respect them enough not to treat adult women with condescension and kid gloves, as I feel more comfortable addressing them as equals.

This feminist forum is as open and public as all the others are on the Rabble. I assume this is because the issues presented here are intended to be discussed in such an open environment.

There are all kind of private/members-only subscription sites where folks can discuss things in exclusive groups. This site clearly isn't one of them.

While I may take issue with some folks say here, I am glad and thankful that such forums exist where people, regardless of who they are and what they do, can openly discuss topics that at one time were considered taboo.

For example, I had no real idea that something as every-day as shaving could be such a powerful issue for so many people. But I do know this now, and I'm thankful, because now I'm yet a bit wiser to the ways of the world.

I guess I should take this opportunity to thank Nez, who started this thread for giving me a chance at developing new perspectives on something I normally take for granted.

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Originally posted by Klingon:
[QB]Most women I have met don't have much hair on their legs, except mainly around the ankles. But they do shave, including their armpits.[QB]

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Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
Just out of curiousity, do you find a totally "natural" man attractive? Would you prefer a man who shaves or trims in some way?

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Magoo, I'm the type of gal who is attracted to both sexes, but I think I lean more towards women than men. But as far as men go, I do not find facial hair atractive. But that's more for personal reasons than aesthetic: my father has always had a full beard, and I've associated beard kisses with being six years old, which is not the type of thing I look for in a boy of my own.

But I will admit that my prefference is entirely a personal thing. A lot of males do look better with facial hair than without. I don't have any problem with beards, I just have a hard time finding bearded men sexually attractive.

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Originally posted by Klingon:
[QB]M I for one learned to respect women from an early age, and tend to treat them at times with a modesty and delicacy that sometimes approaches old style chivalry (or so I have been told)

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Hey, I've got an idea: let's change the feminism forum to "All About Us Men, And How Great We Are Around Women And Their Silly Issues."

The chivalry part makes sense. It's a pretty form of oppression.

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But I also respect them enough not to treat adult women with condescension and kid gloves, as I feel more comfortable addressing them as equals.

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Yeah, you respect them so much that you don't listen to a fucking thing they have to say about respecting their space! Yay you! Please, do go on lording your views, spewing them without pause all over this forum! I can't get enough! In fact, I feel no more need to contribute to the feminism forum! You've said it all, and will continue to say it all, really! I especially like your helpful dictation about what's worth discussion! And then your willingness to chronically interject on topics you:

a) know nothing about and;
b) say are a waste of time!

Again, yay you!

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This feminist forum is as open and public as all the others are on the Rabble. I assume this is because the issues presented here are intended to be discussed in such an open environment.

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Jesus, get a fucking clue. Yes, it's open. But when you see that men are dominating a thread, taking it down a "Yeah, girls, but what do you say about us guys and our needs / wants / insecurities / helpless drive to take a subject and make it All About Us?" and then an actual live feminist asks, politely, for dudes to take that stuff elsewhere, you might want to, I don't know, listen and, I don't know, respect that request.

Call me crazy.

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There are all kind of private/members-only subscription sites where folks can discuss things in exclusive groups. This site clearly isn't one of them.

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Lordy, I give up.

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While I may take issue with some folks say here, I am glad and thankful that such forums exist where people, regardless of who they are and what they do, can openly discuss topics that at one time were considered taboo.

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Oops, I guess I don't give up.

I find it rich that you celebrate the exploration of taboo subjects here, yet in your first post you chastise us goils for wasting our time on such a silly-willy subject.

In fact, this specific forum exists to explore subjects from a pro-feminist perspective. And I'm tired beyond what you can know of seeing boys pull pouts when women ask 'em to back off and maybe absorb the exploration, or start their own threads in other sections if they want to explore their own takes on the issue.

I mean, is it really so hard? Is it so impossible to understand that you're snuffing out the very thing you claim to be supporting?

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For example, I had no real idea that something as every-day as shaving could be such a powerful issue for so many people. But I do know this now, and I'm thankful, because now I'm yet a bit wiser to the ways of the world.

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And you would have learned this if you had sat back, taken a deep breath and watched this thread unfold through women's posts. Instead, we once again have a feminism thread entirely derailed by the demand that women / feminists must first and foremost Educate The Sensitive Men Who Are Unable To Stop Themselves From Pontificating / Holding Forth On Subjects They Know Shit About.

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I guess I should take this opportunity to thank Nez, who started this thread for giving me a chance at developing new perspectives on something I normally take for granted.

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Such a chivalrous pat on the head!

Don't forget, it was also a new chance for you to dismiss and belittle! Always so charming for men to do in the feminism forum!

That's what we're here for, to have you shit on us and our issues, then thank us for plowing through that shit, regardless!

No, the pleasure is all ours, really.

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Blake, don't you think it's pretty hypocritical in our corporate-dominated capitalist economy that fashion and personal hygiene firms can spread their wares in the form of multi-billion-dollar ad campaigns across the universe, yet average working class consumers, who drive the whole industry and pay for it all aren't supposed to discuss these matters with one another?

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This is too too rich. Where did Blake say the subject shouldn't be discussed? In fact YOU were the one to say there must be more worthy things to talk about.

What Blake 3:16 suggested is that you might be open to the possibility that women might be able to discuss it without you chiming in with your Uninformed Opinion all the fucking time.

What I *do* find hypocritcal is your dismissal of Blake as some guilty little weinie, followed by your high-and-mighty blah blah blah, framed by the grand assumption that your (and other men's) domination of this thread is really okay and exactly what babble and the feminism forum is all about, really, and none of us can possibly be in a position to call you on your bullying, domineering, preachy grandstanding ways.

Part of being a sensitive pro-feminist guy is to actually be, you know, sensitive. And that might mean just being quiet and letting women talk about stuff in the feminism forum without having to put in your 2 cents. Especially when you come to the subject with no change.

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That's what we're here for, to have you shit on us and our issues, then thank us for plowing through that shit, regardless!

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Okay, for starters, I'm not exactly sure how men discussing shaving qualifies as you being shat upon.

More to the point though, either I'm wrong about the nature of this forum or you are.

I can appreciate the need for me and the other lads not to dive in feet first and offer "our experiences" of menstruation, pregnancy, childbirth, breastfeeding, what it's like to be harrassed in the workplace, abortion, sexual assault and menopause.

I can appreciate the need for me and the other lads not to dive in feet first and offer our "experiences" of watching the women in our lives experience those things.

And I can appreciate the need to have one single forum that never again has to endure the debate over whether feminism ruins society, whether feminists need to do something different or whether there's even a need for feminism.

But I think it takes that "safe space" concept just a titch too far to start assuming that anything in this forum, purely by dint of being in this forum, immediately takes on a "specialness" that includes an implicit hands-off policy for anyone with a scrotum. Especially the need to shave body hair, something men have been socially pressured to do since long before there was a Lady Schick, and which most men do every day, to their face. Did I mention every day?

So can you or anyone else tell me, since we all shave, since none of us necessarily wants to, and since we all know the various types and degrees of social censure we'd face if we just up and put our feet down one day and quit... why is this a "women's" issue? What, specifically, makes this an area of which men apparently have no first-hand experience to offer? What makes their comments an intrusion on this "safe space"?

If the answer is "well, because a woman made the first post" then the rest is, at worst, common thread drift (and not anyone shitting on anyone else, nor forcing them to wade through said shit), and if the answer is "well, because it's the Feminism forum and so whatever we say goes" then I'm calling nonsense on that. What next? "Womyn only" foodie threads?

[ 01 December 2004: Message edited by: Mr. Magoo ]

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either I'm wrong about the nature of this forum or you are.

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You are.

That was easy!

[ 01 December 2004: Message edited by: writer ]

Hey! You're right! That's as easy as... well, just saying so!

Seriously though, I can't seem to validate your claim with anything from the FAQ or the Policy Statement. All I can see is "Discuss feminist issues from a pro-feminist point of view."

Why does/should anyone care whether anyone else shaves which part of their body?

There are some [censored] things that I'm still self-conscious about, even though both gaining the confidence of independence and settling into a happy and exclusive relationship dispelled lots of others.

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Hey, I've got an idea: let's change the feminism forum to "All About Us Men, And How Great We Are Around Women And Their Silly Issues."

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While you're ranting on about Klingon and Magoo, could I please point out that I, too, have noted that this is a trivial issue, and silly to boot? Yup, li'l ol' me, with the fully functioning female reproductive system, and a self-identified feminist. I'm probably, though, a Bad Feminist™, because I actually thought that the guys weren't hurting anything, and even worse, actually got a kick out of their posts. At worst, they've been harmlessly clueless. I can't imagine why this is worth getting all worked up over.

Hair removal requires constant maintenance and is time consuming. I am especially vigilant about my eyebrows, because it really annoys me if it grows in and ruins the perfect job I just did a few days ago.

My boyfriend says, "I don't see why you do all that stuff, you'd be beautiful anyway." This applies to everything from hair removal to makeup application to hair styling. His quote, while seemingly nice, is total bullshit. If he really thought that, he wouldn't have been attracted someone as high maintenance as I am in the first place.

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Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
More to the point though, either I'm wrong about the nature of this forum or you are.

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I can appreciate the need for me and the other lads not to dive in feet first and offer "our experiences" of menstruation, pregnancy, childbirth, breastfeeding, what it's like to be harrassed in the workplace, abortion, sexual assault and menopause.

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I can appreciate the need for me and the other lads not to dive in feet first and offer our "experiences" of watching the women in our lives experience those things.

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And I can appreciate the need to have one single forum that never again has to endure the debate over whether feminism ruins society, whether feminists need to do something different or whether there's even a need for feminism.

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But I think it takes that "safe space" concept just a titch too far to start assuming that anything in this forum, purely by dint of being in this forum, immediately takes on a "specialness" that includes an implicit hands-off policy for anyone with a scrotum.

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Especially the need to shave body hair, something men have been socially pressured to do since long before there was a Lady Schick, and which most men do every day, to their face. Did I mention every day?

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So can you or anyone else tell me, since we all shave, since none of us necessarily wants to, and since we all know the various types and degrees of social censure we'd face if we just up and put our feet down one day and quit... why is this a "women's" issue? What, specifically, makes this an area of which men apparently have no first-hand experience to offer? What makes their comments an intrusion on this "safe space"?

If the answer is "well, because a woman made the first post" then the rest is, at worst, common thread drift (and not anyone shitting on anyone else, nor forcing them to wade through said shit), and if the answer is "well, because it's the Feminism forum and so whatever we say goes" then I'm calling nonsense on that. What next? "Womyn only" foodie threads?

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Because this is my forum. MY forum. And Michelle's forum, and Audra's forum, and Andrean's forum, and we decide what's cool here and what's not. Don't like that? Think that's somehow unbalanced or unfair? Feel free to go hang out in the 90% of the universe where you guys get to make the rules.

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I'm so glad you defined that for us, Rebecca. Because gawd knows, some of us other women who might be tempted to disagree with you can now reference this to know where we stand. You get to help make the rules, but only if you're in sync with Michelle, Audra, Andrean and you.

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Originally posted by Zoot:
I don't feel excluded. I feel ignored and discounted, actually.

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I think there's a lot of unnecessary nastiness going on over a small thing. As for the sarcasm, well, you know, I was half-serious. On feminist issues, I often feel that you can't be a Good Feminist™ and still appreciate the input of men. I find that limiting. I don't like limits much.

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Yes Zoot, I realize that this does not apply to all men.

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Let's face it, leg-shaving IS a trivial issue. What harm is being done by men commenting?

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My reading of the Feminist Forum guidelines supports this.

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Honestly, HAIR REMOVAL is worth all this energy? Give me a break.

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In the list of body issues that women deal with, think about, etc, I would say that leg hair is very probably at the bottom of the list, or near it. Even for my ultra-proper 60-something mother who wouldn't go with unshaven legs or pits.

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I shave because how do you put deoderant on otherwise? Have some of you smelled some of the european persons? I also shave because my clothes would rub and annoy the hell out of me, especially sleveless shirts that come right up in your pit.

I prefer men with facial hair, because I have intensely sensitive facial skin and kissing a guy with a three o'clock shadow makes my skin swell and get inflamed looking.

I'm interested, anyway.

And exiled:

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Have some of you smelled some of the european persons?

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That made me laugh so hard. Yes, exiled, I've smelled quite a few of them. Married one, even. (Oh, dear, I'm still laughing.)

"I shave because how do you put deoderant on otherwise? Have some of you smelled some of the european persons?"

It is an old, ah, stereotype ... and I think that the Europeans can take it.

Arm pits smell because of the bacteria that is secreted. If not covered up or washed frequently you start to smell. I know only a few people who shower everyday and most people don't realize how they smell (as we are usually the last person to notice how we smell).

Because some of us don't use deodorant (cause they say it causes cancer when put on razon cuts for years) we have to wash a lot more, but I'd swear few actually do. It only takes 24 hours before you get bacteria secretions in your arm pits. and when you sleep at night your skin releases toxins in a form very like urine.

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Yes, it is an old stereotype, and I don't mean to offend with it, but my question still stands how to you put deodorant on with hairy arm pits? How do you put skin lotion on hairy legs when they dry out in the winter?

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Are you really serious? How many boys do you know that have hairy arm pits and wear deodorant?

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Hell, yes, I'm serious. The only guys I know that use deodorant are health nuts who shower regularly and are clean shaven. I've only ever known one guy with hairy pits who used the stuff, but he showered regularly.

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It really isn't rocket science - apply as usual. The same goes for the legs.

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Originally posted by exiled armadillo:
but how do you know its getting on your skin ...

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Originally posted by shaolin:
Are you really serious? How many boys do you know that have hairy arm pits and wear deodorant? It really isn't rocket science - apply as usual. The same goes for the legs.

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I recall being called a dyke once, in reference to my hairy pits. What on earth, I wondered, does body hair have to do with sexual orientation? And how are either of these things insults?

Anyway, from an aesthetic point of view, I prefer the hairless mode - I tweeze, I pluck, I shave my legs (feels good too, smooth legs). I would shave my pits on a quasi-regular basis too if it didn't give me a nasty itchy rash. Just isn't worth it, for the most part.

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Originally posted by Nes:

Pretty much the only kind of hair I have a hard time dealing with, in a friend, bedmate, or otherwise, is the unibrow. Otherwise, any other kind of body hair doesn't phase me much.

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I've noticed this is fairly constant object of ridicule by both sexes.... I wonder why? Is it the association with the neanderthal? Can it offset if the "unibrowed" individual has a full beard?

Also, Zoot, I don't think the main criticism of the men who took over the thread was that they were making light of body hair issues. The problem was that they (starting with Magoo) decided to take over a thread about WOMEN'S body hair issues and turn it into a thread about MEN'S body hair issues. And then into a thread about their opinions about whether it's okay for women to stop shaving, etc.

So the fact that you also consider body hair to be a trivial issue doesn't mean that your views are unwelcome. I think there can be a good discussion and sharing between women about how important (or unimportant) this issue is to them, and how it affects them and how they feel about it. And your feminist viewpoint on the subject is just as valid as any other feminist viewpoint. There are lots of women who feel that it's no big deal one way or the other.

What I think is pissing some of the women off here is that a few guys came along, totally turned the thread into THEIR issues with male body hair, and THEIR issues with female body hair, and THEIR opinions about female body hair, which really wasn't supposed to be the point.

And then when attention is brought to that, we get the men being all defensive, claiming that we're being childish (e.g. the "girlz only club" picture - that's real cute), and writing huge long posts telling us why we should all listen to them expound on the subject of female body hair.

I also like the contribution of men to feminist discussions - if they're respectful and they don't try to turn the whole topic into, "You think YOU'VE got issues! WE'VE got issues! We should talk about OUR issues! Oh, and here's how you should be talking about YOUR issues. Except that your issues are kind of stupid anyhow, and that's why you never get any respect as feminists." It's tiring.

And I think it's really sad when these kind of posts from certain men who only come into the feminism forum to be shit disturbers become a bone of contention between feminists like Zoot and Rebecca who likely agree on a lot more than they disagree about. All Rebecca was asking is that men respect this space, and that the focus of the topic remain on women, not that all men leave the thread and never come back. And I'm certain that she never meant to exclude Zoot from the conversation.

[ 01 December 2004: Message edited by: rasmus raven ]

[ 01 December 2004: Message edited by: rasmus raven ]

Of course this doesn't have anything to do with health, but then neither do most personal grooming traditions. One could say there is a tangential connection, in that if someone is unable or unwilling to follow basic personal grooming (in the broad sense), they might not be following person hygene either, but that's up to the individual.

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Now that women seem to be getting wise to the scam they've started the same nonesense on men

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The problem was that they (starting with Magoo) decided to take over a thread about WOMEN'S body hair issues and turn it into a thread about MEN'S body hair issues.

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Uh, actually I responded to a post regarding an article entitled "The Politics of Body Hair" - no gender specified.

The original poster described her own choices with regard to body hair, and finished with:

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So, what do you think?

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... and I responded with my belief that shaving and the politics around it are not actually limited to women, taking care to respect what now appears to be the sole "rule" of the forum: discuss feminist issues from a pro-feminist point of view. I believed that since I'm not questioning or criticizing any woman's experience, nor taking anything away from their experience, my post was pro-feminist (or at least not anti-feminist). My point was also that insofar as we all have body hair that society seems to insist we shave in order to be good citizens, this isn't solely a "feminist" issue, although I'm starting to believe that "feminist issue", at least in this forum, means "anything any woman wants to call a feminist issue for any reason without risking being called on it." I certainly wasn't attempting to "take over" the thread, as though such as thing were even possible.

The original poster was presumably not incensed at my intrusion, since she went on to answer a question I posed. If my response were really so inappropriate, I'm sure she'd have said something, no?

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and writing huge long posts telling us why we should all listen to them expound on the subject of female body hair.

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For the record, I don't think you should listen to me expound on the subject of female body hair, not that I'm about to expound. But I stand by my assertion that describing body hair as a women's phenomenon is needlessly divisive. Can I even suggest that here, or is it anti-feminist to so much as suggest that maybe issues that affect pretty much every adult don't really benefit from being divided into Male Body Hair, Female Body Hair, Gay Body Hair, Lesbian Body Hair, Filipino Body Hair, etc?

Mrs. Miles and I were talking about this thread last night as we made our weekly shopping list that included blades for me and her.

She suggested that to see the proper effect of shaving versus not shaving that for the winter she will only shave her left leg and left pit. The right ones will not be shaved....

That way i can judge for myslef the differences in smell, texture and the like and we can decide which is better.

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Originally posted by exiled armadillo:
Sorry, I didn't understand that. As someone who gets stuck on the transit system, in a over crowded bus or skytrain, in the heat of summer, regularly, I feel that personal hygiene should be more important to people.

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Sorry. I meant that the whole body image industry was a big scam, not personal hygene, which I am a BIG fan of (hurra hygene!). Advertising is all about convincing people they're not good enough the way they are and then selling them a whole bunch of crap they don't need to make up for their "faults".

[ 01 December 2004: Message edited by: dillinger ]

What some people don't seem to get is that with all these competing smells from hair spray, perfume/ cologne, make-up, deodorant and air fresheners, you can smell just as offensive as someone who doesn't bathe regularly.

We've lost that healthy balance (like in so many areas), but where is the fine line? SHould someone who lives a sedentary life (doesn't jog or sweat regularly) be ok with going two or three days between showers? Or does it have to be every day? Once a week?

As for perfume, I tend to make my own body sprays using distilled water with a small amount of alcohol and essential oils. And I love the smell better. When I used to go to summer wiccan camping festivals, I would make up one call "Fire dancing body spray" and I couldnt keep enough on hand (it was also good to cut down on sunburns and anti-mosquito).

My present wife prefers to shave though not on a necessarily regular basis (she usually lets it slide during the winter and Im the one that shaves her anyway)

When I get home from work, I will look it up and post it for all!

2 cups distilled water
3 tbs. vodka
5 drops sandalwood essential oil
10 drops bergamot essential oil
10 drops cassis essential oil

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Originally posted by Bacchus:
My ex-wife used to use rubbing alcohol as anti perspirant, especially in the summer. She claimed it killed the bacteria there and stopped offensive sweat odor.

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Originally posted by Bacchus:

2 cups distilled water
3 tbs. vodka

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I don't shave my legs, but I'll shave my armpits once in a while when it gets itchy.

I don't wear anti-perspirant either (nor does anyone else I know from my close circle of friends). I don't because it causes breast cancer. Your pores are supposed to sweat. That's why they're there.

I have a girlfriend who's an esthetician. She says that she has as many male clients as she does female, so it's not strictly a feminist issue. More and more, guys are being suckered into this trap that hairless=beautiful.

I really liked the book "Days of Love, Nights of War," by the Crimethinc Collective. They really send powerful messages through Guerrilla Grrrls-style art on the absurdities of most "hygienic" products.

Humans are animals. Perfumes 'n such that are designed to mask our animalism make us better consumers. Animals don't need stuff wrapped in pretty plastic packaging... This is shit we're taught through advertising.

A friend of mine once told me: "People who wear deoderant are afraid of sex." To a certain extent this is true. Just like no one will want to kiss you if you don't suck on the right breath mint, or use the right hair volumizer, and no one will want to fuck you if you have hairy legs or a hairy back or whatever.

David Suzuki, in a talk he delivered in my city last year, had to remind us that we are indeed animals. It's something that is increasingly shoved at the back of our minds, as we type at computers in a virtual reality, take elevators up skyscrapers, eat genetically modified foods, drive in plastic bubbles.

Use some leeway into this question – but you know what I’m getting at?

I have a teenaged daughter who recently succumbed to societal and peer pressure to shave her legs and armpits. I did not argue with her decision, but helped her to research what razor and lotions she would use despite the fact that I haven't shaved for more than 20 years now. As mother, what else could I do?

As a feminist, I wonder, now, what other messages my daughter is receiving from her peers, from our misogynist world, that are forcing her to act in ways I think she ultimately knows are detrimental to women's overall wellbeing. Shaving is but the tip of the iceberg.

I used to be able to shelter her from all that, but now, I guess, I need to let go, to hope that all I've given her -- the values, the teachings, the strong sense of self -- will eventually shine through.

Nancy White got it somewhat right in her song, "Daughters of Feminists." Interestingly, my girl hates pink frilly dresses...

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Originally posted by Zoot:
Oh, come on, Blake... Leg hair is NOT huge. If it is, and bear in mind that this is an actual woman talking, somebody desperately needs a hobby.

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Originally posted by Rebecca West:
And if you don't like that, think that's somehow unbalanced or unfair, you can go hang out in the 90% of the universe where you guys get to make the rules.
...
Feel free to go hang out in the 90% of the universe where you guys get to make the rules.

.... you live in a world where men make all the rules and are catered to on the basis of their gender.

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Originally posted by Berlynn:
I logged into this forum expecting to read some insightful posts about women's self esteem, rants about corporate control of women's bodies, and the like. To my horror, I see a women's forum dominated by male attitudes and teachings. As a result, I would urge babble to consider a women's-only forum in the future.

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Exlcuding males from the conversation doesn't do well for changing any sexist attitudes they might have.

I think Michelle puts it quite well:

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Originally posted by Michelle:

I also like the contribution of men to feminist discussions - if they're respectful and they don't try to turn the whole topic into, "You think YOU'VE got issues! WE'VE got issues! We should talk about OUR issues! Oh, and here's how you should be talking about YOUR issues. Except that your issues are kind of stupid anyhow, and that's why you never get any respect as feminists." It's tiring.

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In regards to your daughter I think it depends on her motivations. If she is doing it out of her own volition, then why should we not respect her choice? Making a choice does not make her any less of a feminist. The trouble is if she feels somehow obligated to do it in order to feel acceptable. But hopefully, she will put your teachings of self-respect to use.

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or a traditional Marxist who really believes that history is pre-ordained.

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I certainly didn't start shaving of my own volition. I'm not sure I know many people who did. By the time I was thirteen there was only one girl left in the class who didn't shave and she was getting daily pressure from both the boys and girls to get rid of her fine, blonde leg hair. She was quite adamant about not doing it at first but by spring she had begun as well. One of the popular guys had told so-and-so who had told her that he liked her but wouldn't go out with her unless she shaved her legs.

When I started shaving my arm pits I couldn't have had more than two or three hairs there, but again, it was what you were supposed to do. In highschool the volleyball team shared out razors before every game, running them quickly under the tap - better to have a sore red rash then (gasp!) the shadow of stubble.

The first time I decided to stop shaving I was sixteen or seventeen. It had been about a month and my family all got together at my grandparents' lakefront place. My much older sister gasped in shock and my uncle and cousins poked fun at me for it most of the day. I started again.

I stopped shaving again about a year ago. It was very much a decision based on my feminism and politics. For ten years - longer than I'd been menstruating - I'd been ritualistically removing any trace of my body hair. I'd hide my legs under the table or consciously keep my arms lowered if I'd run out of razors or just forgotten.

No, it isn't the most pressing women's issue of our time but for me it definitely represents another of the societal expectations and norms that are piled upon us. It was something I hated seeing myself do in order to be the normal, acceptable standard of beauty. Would any of us start removing our body hair, deciding that we'd look better without it if we weren't taught by our peers and by advertisers and by society as a whole that this is what a female should do?

My first experiment with shaving happened when I was 5 or 6. I was convinced that my arm hairs weren't normal, and felt a lot of shame. I still remember the sound of the bathroom fan as I dragged a dry razor down my arm, leaving a trail of cuts and blood.

One day in grade 8, I was wearing shorts and getting something out of my locker. One guy, who was big and hirsute, told the boy on the other side of my locker, "Hey, she's hairier than you!"

The other boy looked at the back of my legs and agreed.

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Originally posted by writer:
My first experiment with shaving happened when I was 5 or 6. I was convinced that my arm hairs weren't normal, and felt a lot of shame. I still remember the sound of the bathroom fan as I dragged a dry razor down my arm, leaving a trail of cuts and blood.

One day in grade 8, I was wearing shorts and getting something out of my locker. One guy, who was big and hirsute, told the boy on the other side of my locker, "Hey, she's hairier than you!"

The other boy looked at the back of my legs and agreed.

I felt sick to my stomach. And started to shave soon after. At the time, some girls in class were being physically abusive to me. I think I was in part worried about what the big guy might do to me if I let myself have more hair than a boy.

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This summer my family saw the leg hair I sported, and it was recieved with mixed results; mostly that of shock. These same family members were the ones who pressured me to shave in the first place when i was 11 or 12, so of course it was a proverbial kick in the teeth when I stopped complying. My own mother cannot even look at my armpits.

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Originally posted by Gir Draxon:

In regards to your daughter I think it depends on her motivations. If she is doing it out of her own volition, then why should we not respect her choice? Making a choice does not make her any less of a feminist. The trouble is if she feels somehow obligated to do it in order to feel acceptable. But hopefully, she will put your teachings of self-respect to use.

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It's not that I don't respect her choice. It's that she freely admits that she is shaving "because everyone else does." But that's the nature of adolescence and yes, I will support her through it and hope it all comes out in the wash.

As to the bit about changing the attitudes of sexist males in a feminist forum, well, that's not my job. As a feminist woman, I deserve a place on rabble, in babble, where I can speak without fear of being bitched at by men who think they know what women do or do not need, most particularly when it involves my body and what I do with it or to it.

With all due respect,

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Originally posted by skdadl:
It is an old, ah, stereotype ... and I think that the Europeans can take it.

(I'm still laughing.)

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Well, this one can. I was amazed though when I first came to Canada that all the women seemed to shave their armpits. I just couldn't understand why. I didn't notice the legs thing until later. I guess it is cultural.

Also, might I suggest that the reason some Europeans stink has more to do with their lack of washing than with body hair. I now shave my pits in summer when I remember to do it and once in a while in winter and my legs never and I don't think I stink.

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Originally posted by Nes:
Ahoy. A lot of people have been going off on a rather silly tangent, and the question of hair has turned into a boys vs. girls debate of sorts.

This all started over the matter of HAIR. It's just hair! Chill

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As one who has endured verbal abuse and ridicule because of "just hair" I find your comment rather rude, very inconsiderate and reflective of the general sexism of this supposedly "pro-feminist" forum.

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Originally posted by Berlynn:

As one who has endured verbal abuse and ridicule because of "just hair" I find your comment rather rude, very inconsiderate and reflective of the general sexism of this supposedly "pro-feminist" forum.

B-)

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hrm. Good.

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Originally posted by Rebecca West:
What I do care about, deeply, is whether people, especially women, are shamed, ridiculed and marginalized because of a superificial aesthetic and personal choice. And it bothers me enormously that anyone would try to frame that concern as "caring about shaving". It's not about that. It's really about the stupid sexist things that oppress us. The body hair issue is just one small example of that larger thing.

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I agree. I think it's a growing obsession in a more urban and more white collar society that everyone absolutley must be fashionable. Failing that, one needs to have a correct opinion on fashion, even if you can't afford the fashions, or even fit into them!

A few weeks ago I was reading a column, intended to be humourous (I think) about "fashion crimes" in The West Ender, a weekly shopper distributed downtown. The columnist is gay, but the column was a much a "queer eye for the straight guy" as anything. I can't remember all the terribly gauche clothing crimes he ripped into, only half joking it seemed, but one of his biggest peeves was wearing socks with sandals. My attitude was basically, for Christ's sake, why am I even reading this drivel?!

But then I asked my wife about it, ... and to my horror she agreed that wearing socks with sandals was pretty horrible! So I just kind of gave up.

[ 03 December 2004: Message edited by: Budd Campbell ]

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Originally posted by Budd Campbell:
I think it's a growing obsession in a more urban and more white collar society that everyone absolutley must be fashionable. Failing that, one needs to have a correct opinion on fashion, even if you can't afford the fashions, or even fit into them!

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While women might be able to "get over it" and see that it isn't a "big deal", girl children are still walking around in fear for their physical well-being and social status if they choose not to remove their leg hair. That seems to be a big deal to me.

What is feminism about if we ignore the subtle crushing pressures the status quo is imposing on those who are moving towards womanhood?

For me, now, shaving is not such a big deal personally. Having said that, the global pressure for women to pluck, pull, shave, wax, thread, sugar, electrocute and otherwise remove or hide their hair is significant and, at times, oppressive.

And we haven't even started to talk about chin and upper-lip hair on women, have we?

[ 04 December 2004: Message edited by: writer ]

I am semi-ignorant, semi-experienced on the subject of women's facial hair.

The experience comes from being my age, which is 59, and all that that entails. One of the things that post-menopause entails is that one does begin to develop a bit of a moustache. Plus, one gets these li'l ... sprouts ... here and there, especially from moles.

For me, this was new, and yes, it bothers me. It bothers me as no other hair ever has. I realize as I write about it that a lot of other people are going to be having the same reaction that I am having to myself, which is, Ewwww, gross. Shave right now!

I've never been especially aware, though, of facial hair on younger women. Is that naive? Do younger women worry about this problem? My hair is mostly pale and fine, even now and even on my legs, so I was mostly able to ignore the issue for a long time.

I've been looking for images, and this is the best I can see:

I'm 40, and have plucked eyebrows for 27 years, on and off, and removed dark chin hairs for about 20. I am only recently getting a few lip hairs I need to escort out of my skin. Hairs out of moles, I seem to have always had, but they generally don't worry me too much.

I've tried electrolysis on my chin, and found it too painful, expensive, and not much use. Permanent my ass.

Eyebrows I do out of habit and asthetics. The other hairs, out of what I see as necessity. I don't find these hairs repulsive, and under other circumstances would live happily with them, I think. Especially since they've proliferated over the decades, so now, rather than an occassional hair to deal with, I am plucking almost every day.

Last year at the ROM, Lori Millan and Shawna Dempsey mounted a video performance about women and history. In that piece, Millan made a surprising confession about her fear of her own facial hair.

Millan is best known for her often hilarious explorations of her identity as a bull-dyke feminist. That facial hair haunted even her in the same way it haunted me was somehow liberating.

I do wish we could all feel free to embrace our own inner Kahlo. She's so sexy!

[ 04 December 2004: Message edited by: writer ]

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I've never been especially aware, though, of facial hair on younger women. Is that naive?

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My wife makes a sort of sometimes big deal out of not shaving her armpits or legs, and as for her armpit hairs, she calls them her "silkies", and likes me to stroke them appreciatively, and then compliment her on just how silky they are. I, ... er, ... ah, ... tend to go along with this for motives of my own, ... if you know what I mean.

Her friends and her sister all shave and wax, and she doesn't, something I have always found a bit odd, but hardly important.

She told me that her reasons for not shaving were partly physical and partly social/political. When she had shaved as a teenager ... and to my surprise and dismay she confirmed the stories about major pressures being brought to bear on her by her teenage peers to do so, .... her fairly delicate skin had reacted badly, lots of cuts and rashes and discomfort. So she really didn't want to be doing it.

When she went to France for her first year of college she happily stopped, and felt culturally and fashionably safe to do so since in Europe the practice was far less common. Most women there did not shave or wax, at least by her count.

Summing up, she said her social and political reasons for not doing so were a bigger influence than the physical discomfort ones, the exact opposite of what I would have expected. She said she objects to the amount of shaving creams and razors being sent to landfills, etc., and to the pressure to conform.

Yet I was struck by the notion that she only felt free to stop following North American fashion in this regard when she came across European fashion, and could take that as has her lead in this area instead.

As for my own personal shaving issues, I have had a moustache for the past several years which I kind of like to have as a small substitute for all the hair I have lost on my head. But I think it's going to have to go because it's causing my scuba dive mask to leak, even when I coat it with vaseline, and that ruins the dive. So I will part with fashion for function, but not with out some regret.

[ 05 December 2004: Message edited by: Budd Campbell ]

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Reena Virk, who attempted, or least was perceived by some, to transgress the boundaries of these various communities paid for these transgressions with her life...
The mainstream media have generally described Reena's life as one fraught with difficulties because she was "caught between two cultures;" or because she did not "fit in" primarily due to her colour, weight, and facial hair. Yasmin Jiwani has aptly responded to this assertion that Reena was marginalized due to her failure to "fit in," by asking the question "fit into what?"

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Originally posted by writer:
A Guilty Verdict against the Odds:
Privileging White Middle-Class Femininity
in the Trial of Kelly Ellard
for the Murder of Reena Virk

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A very, very nteresting article, thanks for the link.

However, I found it a bit unsatisfactory that there was no actual explanation of the social status of either Glowatski or Ellard. The writer claims that Ellard is middle class, Glowatski not, but on what basis? A couple of hot tub parties doesn't imply an inexhaustible source of income.

I don't think we're trying to dominate discussion here. we're only trying to participate. If you find it strange that there are a lot of men discussing women's issues, shouldn't think of it as a good thing that men are taking an interest?

I read the entire thread up to this point, and I wouldn't be messaging if I thought it was uninteresting or irrelevant. I've thought about whether I'm conditioned to believe that soft skin is a feminine quality, and I don't think that's the reason.

I think the reason why, is that skin in other places, where women don't tend to have hair has the same appeal. One thing guys (well, I for sure) find really attractive is how soft womens' hands are usually. The other day I got a warm hug from a girl that I asked out, and how soft her cheek was gave me a shock. I can't speak for everyone, but these things tend to make me melt inside.

So I think that maybe it's not that we're conditioned to think that it's a feminine quality. I think that it's done to artificially enhance one's feminine qualities, like corsettes were, at one time, or make up is now. It's so ubiquitous in this part of the world, that I think it has become an expectation. I think that's why there's a stigma associated with not shaving.

like the rest of us second class rabble rousers here, I shave because women like it as well. i personally, like the way i look with a five o'clock shadow. It makes me look less baby-faced.

If you disagree with my opinion on why we (both sexes shave), lets consider something else. Why do people clip their fingernails? If you've ever tried to pick up a coin, scratch an itch/lottery ticket, or open a pop can without them, you'd know it's more useful to have them. I happen to know though that most girls abhor guys with long or dirty fingernails.

Nes said:

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...I'm the type of gal who is attracted to both sexes, but I think I lean more towards women than men. But as far as men go, I do not find facial hair atractive. But that's more for personal reasons than aesthetic: my father has always had a full beard, and I've associated beard kisses with being six years old, which is not the type of thing I look for in a boy of my own.

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