I should probably grasp this problem better than I do, since I work in the book biz, but I am finding it hard to talk myself out of being tempted to buy books online from amazon, and I'm wondering whether someone can think of good reasons to stop me.

My specific problem lately: I have discovered the used and remaindered capacities of amazon, and am simply stunned at how much is available for not much more than the price of postage. There are a bunch of books I need at the moment that are less than classics, just very practically useful books that would normally cost a bomb, that I wouldn't normally buy, just consult in a library, although that would be far less convenient than having them here by the machine. I know of no stores in Canada that are selling them new for $1.50 - but amazon can connect me to warehouses in the States where they are.

I know that remaindering is one of the sad parts of book publishing, although maybe it is less so in the U.S. In Canada, it is sad, has played a part in the complicated saga whereby both independent bookstores and some independent publishers have finally had to give up the ghost. And then there are always the starving authors, of course.

But can it be evil of me to buy American books for $1.50 from an American warehouse through amazon.ca? I am assuming that overruns there mean much less than they do here. Perhaps I am taking business away from a Canadian bookseller? Well, yes: I am.

I can't really speak to the issue of taking away business from Canadian booksellers other than to note that, yes, by buying online, you probably are. Even if you use Amazon.ca rather than Amazon.com, the only difference being the former sends your books via Canada Post rather than a private courier service, as I understand it.

I would like to point out, though, that if you do shop online for your books, Amazon (both .ca and .com) is nonunion. Powells, however, based out of Portland, Oregon, is wall-to-wall organized by the militant Longshore Workers Local 5. And further, if you go through the union's web portal to buy your books, at www.powellsunion.com, the union members get paid 10% of each sale. So keep that in mind as well.

[ 25 February 2006: Message edited by: robbie_dee ]

There's a Monty Python sketch I'm groping toward here; father with broad Yorkshire accent, son sounding more posh; father's actually a professor, son wants to go mine coal; father saying stuff like "Soon, Ah've slaved awee in stuffy seminar rooms and t'like all these years so that you could have better lahfe... you'll breek your moother's hahrt if you go off on own lahke this..."

Have I got this even half-right, anyone?
[/drift]

Edit:

Only half-right: father's a playwright, ee, bah goom.

"There's nowt wrong wi' gala luncheons!"

[ 25 February 2006: Message edited by: 'lance ]

As for buying online within Canada about the only other alternative is the Chapter's Indigo chain...they've swallowed just about everything. I understand there have been some early attempts to organize there but none have been successful so far.

A little background about me first, so you can decide whether to take me seriously or not – I’m an independent Canadian author (www.leopoldmcginnis.com) and part of the fairly controversial rebel lit group, the Underground Literary Alliance – in fact, one of only two Canadian members.

I think the fact that you are asking this question is really great, because most people don’t even think about it and that’s a problem. The giant congloms, while generally doing (on the face of things) great things for literature (like giving you the ability to buy books for dirt cheap!) generally mean bad things for the people producing the books – publishers and authors. Amazon, like most big book congloms, take 55% commissions, which is horrible, though standard. Their bottom-line business ethic usually takes a toll on the back end which most people don’t even see. Nuclearfreezone, a lot of independent booksellers sell through Amazon because they don't have much choice. While Amazon has provided new opportunities for small booksellers to reach wide audiences, Amazon charges outrageous commissions. While Amazon.com allows independent booksellers to sell directly through their site, Amazon.ca (essentially an Amazon afterthought in order to get into Canada) only takes books that have a select number of Canadian distributors. A little guy like me can't get in unless I get picked up by a large distributor. Amazon allows 'average' people to sell their stuff on Amazon, but in terms of books, it's only books that Amazon already sells / has approved. Amazon.ca is just an afterthought by Amazon to get around the cancon rules that demand Book sellers in Canada be at least 50% owned. By partnering with Canada Post they've managed to sneak around this. The result is that they get great mailing deals with Canada Post that independent shmoes like me and small publishers/bookstores don't have access to.

I’m not exactly sure how remainders work, but aren’t they just leftovers from books that don’t sell? Usually bookstores have a (nefarious) return policy, meaning books that they can’t sell the publisher buys back (you probably know most of this, skdadl), so what does that make the remainders? Bargain basement leftovers from too large print runs because chains like Chapters, Indigo, etc… over ordered and then returned? (this is something they're notorious for) If that’s the case, then I think buying remainders – which Amazon still makes money from, but the publisher does not – is not helping the book industry and, again, is crushing the little producers.

I don’t think you can say that American remainders are less a problem than Canadian remainders, unless it’s because of the prevalence of the corporate press down there. The American publishing industry has been reduced to 7 conglomerates publishing most of the books. But there are still a lot of small presses down there who will get killed on this as well, who are trying to provide an alternative to the myopic bigwigs and the greedy chain bookstores. I don’t think Random House Canada deserves any more consideration than Random House US, etc… I’d check the publisher. If it’s Random House or some other giant who makes it’s business on mass-producing titles with easy marketing appeal (and ignoring anything niche oriented), then cheap leftovers are part of their game and they should eat the loss. They have hitched their ride to Amazon and Chapters, etc… a long time ago and are in a position to change or pull away from Amazon’s business if they have the guts, so I don’t think buying their remainders is going to hurt. Does an author still get 10% of a remaindered book? Do they get 10% of the original price tag, or what it sells for? There might be differences between fiction and non-fiction too, that I'm not aware of.

If these are not corporate books, but small/independent presses, they deserve support. There are always better options. I think the industry is really on the verge of changing towards independent writers and publishers (though, that could be my own conceit.) One alternative is to contact the press or author directly! The author might have cheap copies to sell directly – saving the 55% (or more) commission Amazon might take. Plus, usually authors are glad to hear from readers. The small press, too, if it’s reduced to selling remainders, would probably much rather sell directly to you than to than through Amazon. If they don’t have options for this, they are foolish and I say go ahead and buy from Amazon. I think you can take the same approach to remaindered books as to software piracy. If you wouldn’t buy it otherwise, then it’s not a loss to the industry. It’s a gain for them, in fact. It’s still promotion for them if people see the author or press name on your bookshelf. If it’s the sort of book you wish there were more of or find it great or useful, then support it. If not, support something else that needs support occasionally with the bucks that you’ve saved up from buying cheap.

But I think avoiding buying or selling on Amazon is probably a good idea, overall, particularly when there are other options out there.

Yeah, I had a feeling that it was too good to be true, or rather, too good to be virtuous, to be good either for writers or for good publishers. Thank you for laying out the territory so well.

You're right about the disasters that Chapters/Indigo have caused in the past with their returns policy (their discount policy as well). The original Chapters drove some smaller Canadian presses into the ground with those practices.

Writers earn nothing when their books are remaindered, and publishers can't be earning much. To a degree, this is part of the current culture of publishing: when I first started out in the sixties, the strength of the most established houses - their literary and their financial strength - was their backlists. Now, except for the very biggest sellers and the classics, no one wants to keep much of a backlist - a new book makes it in the first few months, or it is toast. To me, that culture has had a corrosive effect all round on what gets published, how writers think of their own work, and so on. And I think it corrodes the stability of the publishing houses themselves, even the biggies. Every part of the industry and most of the players are starting to feel ... disposable.

radiorahim is right to remember the problems of American dumping here. I don't know how much of that still goes on, but I would still not buy the American edition of a book by a Canadian author who also has a Canadian publisher. The numbers are so stacked against anyone publishing in Canada - to the American publisher, this market was never anything but gravy anyway.

I'm sure it's worth repeating this:

quote:

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I think the industry is really on the verge of changing towards independent writers and publishers (though, that could be my own conceit.) One alternative is to contact the press or author directly! The author might have cheap copies to sell directly – saving the 55% (or more) commission Amazon might take. Plus, usually authors are glad to hear from readers. The small press, too, if it’s reduced to selling remainders, would probably much rather sell directly to you than to than through Amazon. If they don’t have options for this, they are foolish and I say go ahead and buy from Amazon. I think you can take the same approach to remaindered books as to software piracy. If you wouldn’t buy it otherwise, then it’s not a loss to the industry. It’s a gain for them, in fact. It’s still promotion for them if people see the author or press name on your bookshelf. If it’s the sort of book you wish there were more of or find it great or useful, then support it. If not, support something else that needs support occasionally with the bucks that you’ve saved up from buying cheap.

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I think the current sorry state of letters can be attributed to poor stewardship on part of almost everyone involved in the book industry (I’m mostly speaking of fiction here, because that’s my expertise). The big presses have let themselves be merged or taken over (or have taken over others) to form the conglomo-7. Like most corporate overlords, they care little about the state of the industry they work in beyond how it affects their own pocketbooks. The Canada Council grants I feel are also outdated and myopic, only supporting ‘established’ artists, presses and magazines, those authors which have been ‘approved’ or vetted by ‘experts’ which usually means literati trained by Academics, or academics themselves. The idea that someone needs training, or an MFA to perform the beautifully simple act of expressing oneself is rediculous. This wouldn't be so bad if it didn't create a culture of credentialism which has very little to do with literature (and innovation!) and very much about art cliques. Writing, which should be accessible to anyone with a grade 8 education, has been handed over to the meat-grinder of Academia where, before one can be approved as a writer, they must learn how to write like an academic, pledge allegiance to what the academics consider ‘good writing’ and then, in order to get grants or get published, continue publishing like academic writers. I'm not against academics (both my parents were/are professors) but this is a terrible system for art and has already established, in my opinion, it's unsuitability.

Writers, too, are complicit in the boring state of literature these days, as they are, usually by nature, happy to sit in dark rooms and write. Going out, performing, promoting themselves, being wild and getting attention for themselves and their art is almost antithetical to their nature. Musicians will pile all their stuff into a bus, drive 200 miles for a gig. Writers will barely make it down to the corner café to speak in a whisper and a precious monotone.

I don't think writing would have been so coopted as it is now if people cared and were paying attention to it, the way they pay attention to movies and TV. But the current state of lit affairs has created a system so weak and unoriginal that I think it's just waiting to revolutionize.

The ‘pall’ of self-publishing, which is ridiculous, is slowly crumbling. Painters, musicians and other artists have been making and producing their own art for years. In fact, the only two people who really count in judging a work’s merit is the author, who decides whether they accomplished what they wanted to achieve, and the reader, who decides if the book was useful or interesting to them. As more authors forgo all the gatekeepers to bring out their work, I think a much more diverse selection of work will emerge.

Joining the Underground Literary Alliance was a big thing for me, as it’s connected me to a LARGE group of other independent writers who have all been shut out, for one reason or another from the ‘proper’ channels of publishing. The DIY zine movement is really starting to merge with the underground literature movement and I think as more independently minded artists realize there is an upswell of this sort of stuff, the more will join. Once it hits a certain mass and people know about it, I think it will thrive. The Internet, certainly, has been a big, big help in expanding audiences, as well as the advent of digital printing/desktop publishing. It's an exciting time, to be sure. But currently the big conglomerates still hold all the cards.

I recently came across a Canadian site that sells independent Canadian books online and only charges the retail standard 30% commission. www.canadabooksonline.com to publishers. The industry needs more organizations like this, but just the fact that it exists is great (I'm not in anyway affiliated with them, though I will be asking them to carry my book when it comes out). I also think Canada Post should be taken to task. This country does not have a book rate and it costs me less to mail my books to New York than it does to Toronto. Yet Canada Post has hitched its wagon to Amazon.ca, giving them special mailing rates, weekend delivery, yet nothing for the average Canadian. It's going to be a struggle, for sure, to bring some real change, but it seems to me that there are a LOT of people ready to fight.

quote:

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Originally posted by skdadl:

I should probably grasp this problem better than I do, since I work in the book biz, but I am finding it hard to talk myself out of being tempted to buy books online from amazon, and I'm wondering whether someone can think of good reasons to stop me.

My specific problem lately: I have discovered the used and remaindered capacities of amazon, and am simply stunned at how much is available for not much more than the price of postage. There are a bunch of books I need at the moment that are less than classics, just very practically useful books that would normally cost a bomb, that I wouldn't normally buy, just consult in a library, although that would be far less convenient than having them here by the machine. I know of no stores in Canada that are selling them new for $1.50 - but amazon can connect me to warehouses in the States where they are.

But can it be evil of me to buy American books for $1.50 from an American warehouse through amazon.ca? I am assuming that overruns there mean much less than they do here. Perhaps I am taking business away from a Canadian bookseller? Well, yes: I am.

How do I justify this? It is so tempting.

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You could always comprimise: Buy only what you wouldn't buy full price from an online discount organization, while buying everything you would've bought anyways from a unionized/small/local bookstore.

You could also set aside an amount of money to spend on each outlet for some period of time, ie. $75 for the local place and $25 for an online chain.

I would like to have this or this but wouldn't necessarily buy them full price (if it was even in stock in my local bookstore), and there are many more like them I would like to have as reference while still purchasing others from my local store.

I also like the idea of buying from the author/publisher, seems to me you could get a good deal and still help out the good guys, especially with returned books. Thanks to whomever mentioned this (and the commission rates, and for the other resources above), I hadn't realized that was how things were.

Side question: Doesn't amazon.com offer to print small runs of an authors book if he can't get a bigger deal elsewhere? If so, is this legit?

[ 28 February 2006: Message edited by: Mr. Anonymous ]

And above all, so good to hear that there is a groundswell of younger writers/producers getting feisty again. FTE, you are reminding me of my misspent youth.

Seriously, something like this did happen for a while in Canada among younger writers in the sixties, early seventies. The difference then, I suppose, was the focus on content, specifically Canadian content. We were thinking to revolutionize the production end of things as well, and maybe we went some distance in that direction, but a lot of independent houses got beaten down and/or swallowed up by that oldest of pressures: How do we pay the rent?

I think the turf of battle has shifted now considerably because of the electronic revolution. I'm really glad to hear that all kinds of people are out there already just doing it, and I shall try to catch up.

I've been shafted by publishers who don't bother to pay royalties, twice by supposedly "feminist" publishers. If I could collect the money owed me I could live my last years in comfort!! I've had to sue the CBC, NFB, CFDC and Press Gang publishers, and the lawyers did well. I've had two books "taken over" by a publisher in the USA and had NO RECOURSE because, I'm told, the States doesn't recognize Canadian copyright and if I want to sue to get them back I have to do it in the States with an American lawyer.

I could go on but it's depressing and would bore you.

And still I write. I'm sure Skdadl, AE, and some others will understand what I mean when I say I write for the good of my health. If I don't write I get sick. In body and in the head.

I probably have ten novels waiting for publication. I should live that long! Probably have a dozen more "in progress". I should live that long, too.

Years ago one of my novels was picked up by Avon. And a lovely editor told me they have a formula, and will give a book three months on the shelves, then remainder it. If it hasn't sold a million in three months it isn't worth it to them to leave it out as a slow seller. Even if it is a steady seller. Three months. Well, my book didn't sell a million in three months and Avon wasn't interested in the next one, they only want writers who sell plenty in three months.

My publisher for the past 25 years is Harbour Publishing. They know my stuff sells slow and steady, they keep a back list. I know what a load this makes for them. They're loyal, they are like family now, all of them, and I've said no to other publishers simply to be as loyal to Harbour as Harbour is to me.

To anyone who knows in her or his heart that writing is their calling I say Go for it, but first learn a few skills which will feed you and any kids you might have. Drive a truck, run a fork lift, sell real estate, SOMETHING because you won't even afford Krap dinner if you're depending on book sales.

Every "how to" book I've ever skimmed has said "get an agent". Don't bother. I've yet to make any money at all thanks to an agent, outside of film and TV.

To anyone planning to write for film and TV, my advice is, get a Uzi, you'll need it. Dirty dirty dirty business.

quote:

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Years ago one of my novels was picked up by Avon. And a lovely editor told me they have a formula, and will give a book three months on the shelves, then remainder it. If it hasn't sold a million in three months it isn't worth it to them to leave it out as a slow seller. Even if it is a steady seller. Three months. Well, my book didn't sell a million in three months and Avon wasn't interested in the next one, they only want writers who sell plenty in three months.

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I know that this is true.

And what blows my mind is that everyone can't see where this logic leads.

It leads to a tiny handful of writers all called Danielle Steel(e) is where it leads.

quote:

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Originally posted by skdadl:

I know that this is true.

And what blows my mind is that everyone can't see where this logic leads.

It leads to a tiny handful of writers all called Danielle Steel(e) is where it leads.

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Oh. . . . God. . . Yes. I see it every day. Steele occupies entire shelf rows in our store. And she sells.

I learn so much from you and anne. One of the things I fear is that the book I am writing (much of it is on my blog save for a few chapters that need to be written around it) may be the only one I have in me. I am writing it with some intent on having it noticed and that it would at least get publishers and readers to pick the thing up (ergo the working title "Confessions of a Disloyal American").

Anne: I've done radio and I would say that you could add THAT biz to writing for TV and film as one you would need an Uzi to take care of the jackals you have to deal with.

But in the big bad world of book publishing, I guess I feel like a babe in the woods. I'm writing this thing on nothing more than hope and faith now. I have no deal, of course, or anything. When its done, I'll ask for advice on shopping it around. And I only hope to make enough money to help get settled. If Bill O'Reilly hates it, it may sell some more, I dunno.

quote:

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Steele occupies entire shelf rows in our store. And she sells.

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Not to mention shelf rows in the DVD store as well. Where all of her books turned into movies are filed alphabetically as "Danielle Steele's book title"

quote:

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And in other news, U of T Press announced yesterday that it is selling its printing division -- 77 jobs at stake.

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Well. I am glad that Thorfinn never heard that.

It had already been muchly taken apart, of course, but ... shame.

Some of them were bad news, at least for a time, and we have lost refinements along the way, although I sometimes see them creeping back as the tech-sophisticated get more ... sophisticated.

Now, Spellcheck - at that I still laugh. And Grammarcheck drives me bananas!

quote:

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Originally posted by skdadl:
PS to fern hill: There were a lot of things about the "new technology" that I was laughing at in 1982, too, that I am not laughing at any longer.

Now, Spellcheck - at that I still laugh. And Grammarcheck drives me bananas!

---

Gee. Thinking about the biz is beginning to get to me.

I remember the guys at the plant. They could read classical Greek upside-down and mirror-image, even though they didn't know classical Greek. But they would catch typos, just because they knew, eg, from experience, that those two characters never appeared together.

The plant these days is up in Downsview; in the olden days (before my time) it was down on the St George campus, in one of the great old houses along St George. It was a world, y'know, where all the craftspeople worked together.

Gone. Gone. All gone.

And then there are the people who know better and don't give a shit who use the Xerox machines. I had a HELL of an argument with an instructor at a community college because she was using the copy machine and handing out entire chapters of books..her defence was two fold, her students couldn't afford to buy "all those books" and there was no syllabus for her course. Until then we had been acquaintances, now I don't bother. I blew up completely and suggested if she couldn't teach her goddam course without fuckin'well stealing other people's bread and butter she should fuckin retire and get a fuckin job digging ditches...when fury goes white hot the coaltown roots show!! she didn't see that it was theft.

And then there are the instructors who phone and ask if you'll go "address" their class, a two-hour session, the students would LOVE to hear from ...but, of course, there's nothing in the budget to pay you, it would be a volunteer thing, a favour to the class.

I always suggest that since I'LL be doing THEIR job for two hours, they take a coffee break and give me the two hours pay from their own cheque.

Tell'em that a couple of times they quit phoning.

And I cannot believe how many times I've been asked to read or speak or whatever and just before I agree it is suggested that , of course, we all understand, nothing POLITICAL will get said.

I couldn't order pizza without getting political.

Definately, skdadl, they have a real stranglehold on publishing. But as an independent author I can make quite a lot of money selling only 1000 books, as opposed to having to sell a million to be even considered mediocre. Plus, I have a much higher connection to my audience...generally knowing or having written/spoken to each person who has bought my books. I don't have to worry so much about photocopying, etc... Because I'm not working on a scale where my books will be easily available for copying. Most likely, if people will want a copy, they'll have to order it. If I get to the point where my books are so widely distributed that it's easy to copy them (10,000+ copies), under my personalized, no middle man business model (I hate using that term and if I was selling a LOT of books I'd probably need some sort of middle man...but forget that for the sake of argument) I'd be making enough to be happy that people were reading what I wrote.