I liked it, I hope you do too. I'm a news hound, so if you have any interesting foreign news, quotes or speeches on this topic, post away.

Here is an Strategic Council poll from August 18, 2006 - several deaths and injuries ago:

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Many adults in Canada believe their country’s soldiers should not have been deployed to Afghanistan, according to a poll by The Strategic Council released by CTV and the Globe and Mail. 55 per cent of respondents oppose the decision to send Canadian troops to the area.

[...]

Polling Data

Overall, would you say you support or oppose the decision to send Canadian troops to Afghanistan?

Aug. 2006

Support 37%
Oppose 55%
Don't Know 8%

Canadian casualties: Is this the price we have to pay to bring stability and peace to Afghanistan, or is the price too high?

Price we have to pay: 36%
Too high a price: 58%
Don’t know: 6%

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How about this thread title:

Government defies will of clear majority of Canadians on Afghanistan

ETA: By the way, the June 2006 polls showed 48% in favour of the Afghan occupation, 44% against.

ETA: Correction: Although the article is from Angus Reid, the poll was conducted by the Strategic Council on behalf of CTV and the Globe and Mail.

[ 10 September 2006: Message edited by: unionist ]

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It could be that Canadians are developing an immunity to the once-shocking sight of coffins draped in the maple leaf flag

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I would say that is what they are hoping for Canadians to become immune, and as the articles says regarding Jack's comments:

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"The prime minister won't even use the word 'war', even though it's obvious that's what Canada has now declared. There is no exit strategy that's ever been offered and there's no comprehensive plan to achieve peace."

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Originally posted by unionist:
Your topic title is a pathetic joke, as is your use of a BBC article which cites no sources as to Canadian public opinion.

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What the pathetic joke is, is that you didn't read the post and it intention (seeking international news) or realise that this link is set up by Babble as an 'International News and Politics' thread.

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Originally posted by Tiff:
[QBI don't care what an outdated poll conducted in Canada has to say. Anyway, if I wanted a Canadian poll on the issue I would get the most recent one that actually shows 51% support (it's gone up).[/QB]

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Well thats wild, you don't care what Canadians have to say about it?

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Originally posted by remind:

Well thats wild, you don't care what Canadians have to say about it?

Furthermore, where is this illustrious pooll thats says 51%

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Using a name such as Remind one would think I wouldn't have to remind you that this is an international link and I started a thread with an artile from a foreign newspaper. I wanted a foreign perspective on Canada's role in Afghanistan.

The poll I spoke of was a CanWest Global National poll that you and 99% of everyone else at Babble wouldn't even consider clicking on the link even if it were supplied.

The price of war: Canadians still support the fight as families mourn dead soldiers

It was in CanWest newspapers and on Global National of which quite a few Canadians view and read. The poll has been out for days and many, if not most Canadians, already knew of this poll.

[ 10 September 2006: Message edited by: Tiff ]

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Originally posted by Tiff:

It was in CanWest newspapers and on Global National of which quite a few Canadians view and read. The poll has been out for days and many, if not most Canadians, already knew of this poll.

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Originally posted by Tiff:
Well, according to IPSOS-Reid, the pollster who conducted said poll for CanWest Global National, you have to pay for that content.

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Well Tiff, it's your debating point, so pay up and post it here!

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Originally posted by unionist:
Your topic title is a pathetic joke, as is your use of a BBC article which cites no sources as to Canadian public opinion.

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Originally posted by Michelle:
That's no way to treat a newbie to babble.

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The poll results are accurate within a range of 3.1%, 19 times out of 20.

The unbiased question (no charge):

Do you support the immediate canonization of Stephen Harper?

It's been said I'm a newbe, sure whatever. I am not all that new that I don't know what kind of site that I have visited. This site is basically set up for those individuals who wish to speak of mostly social matters from a socialists perspective. There are very few debates where individuals debate issues from both sides. That is meaningful debate. Having two points of view and debating them.

[ 10 September 2006: Message edited by: Tiff ]

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Originally posted by Tiff:
So now you see why I said 99% of you wouldn't even consider a CanWest Global National poll! Even if I could find the question it wouldn't matter.

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Imagine, actually insisting on knowing the poll question before trying to analyze its significance!

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This site is basically set up for those individuals who wish to speak of mostly social matters from a socialists perspective.

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Originally posted by Tiff:
So now you see why I said 99% of you wouldn't even consider a CanWest Global National poll! Even if I could find the question it wouldn't matter.

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Very convenient approach. It's called the pot calling the kettle black. We are interested in knowing what the CanWest question was, so we asked about it. You don't give a damn what the question was - all you care about is the 51% answer. And you accuse us of not considering the CanWest Global poll!

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Originally posted by Tiff:
Half (51%) Of Canadians Support Combat Operations In Afghanistan - Up 4 Points From Late July

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57 percent of Americans are now against the war in Iraq.

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Do you strongly support, somewhat support, somewhat oppose, or strongly oppose the use of Canada's troops for security and combat efforts against the Taliban and Al Qaeda in Afghanistan?

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The results:

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The national survey conducted for CanWest Global news shows 51% of Canadians either
“strongly” (25%) or “somewhat” (27%) support “the use of Canada’s troops for security and
combat efforts against the Taliban and Al Qaeda in Afghanistan” –up 4 points from a July 25-
27th survey.

Meanwhile, 43% of Canadians oppose our troop’s combat operations in Afghanistan (25%
“strongly oppose”).

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The breakdown of support

BC 44%
AB 63%
SK/MN 44%
ON 55%
PQ 45%
Atl 57%

One must consider that a somewhat support answer is very conditional depending upon the respondent. The question does not challenge whether or not we should be there in the first place, only what we should do given that we are there.

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Originally posted by Jerry West:

A much better question would have been along the lines of is the mission in Afghanistan worth the price in Canadian resources and lives.

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Thanks, Jerry, for helping us see that "51%" is a rather transparent distortion of the truth.

I agree with you about the "much better" question, and that's essentially what produced 58% against the war in the Strategic Council poll last month:

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Canadian casualties: Is this the price we have to pay to bring stability and peace to Afghanistan, or is the price too high?

Price we have to pay: 36%
Too high a price: 58%
Don’t know: 6%

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venus_man:
Has the World War 2 worthed the Canadian or British or American recourses and lives?

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Is that English?

There is no reasonable comparison between the aggression in Afghanistan and Iraq and WWII. Of course if you mean was WWII worth it for Germany and Japan then you might have a point.

In the present instance it is the so called allies that have invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, not that they care about depravity because they are responsible for enabling the depraved regimes to start with. They do care about more mundane things like oil and world domination, though.

You really can't equate allied action in WWII, which was defensive (at least in the short story) with their action today which is offensive.

Many of the people who fought WWII and were responsible for the move towards a more unified and progressive world order thereafter have indicated how apalled they are with the current course of events. The number of high ranking officers and civil servants who have come out in oppostion to these foolish and aggressive misadventures is considerable.

At least one Canadian General that I know of resigned over the Afghanistan involvement, and many top ranking American Generals and Colonels that have spoken out against the companion war in Iraq.

The war in Afghanistan has little if anything to do with the Taliban other than they are the principle force opposing foreign occupation. For those like me who despise them this war is a mistake because it gives them more power than they would have had, had we taken a different approach to stimulating change in Afghanistan. This war is also a mistake because of the needless waste of Canadian lives and resources involved, not to mention those of the Afghans.

As for comparing Canadians and Brits and Americans to the Nazis, it wouldn't be a good comparison because Canadians, Brits and Americans are quite diverse in what they believe and how they act, though some of them can certainly be compared that way.

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The war in Afghanistan has little if anything to do with the Taliban other than they are the principle force opposing foreign occupation. For those like me who despise them this war is a mistake because it gives them more power than they would have had, had we taken a different approach to stimulating change in Afghanistan. This war is also a mistake because of the needless waste of Canadian lives and resources involved, not to mention those of the Afghans.

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What I find rather ridiculous in the fact that I was lambasted for posting the poll in the first place because I never gave an address to link to it. When I did that, I was further lambasted because now the question wasn't there!

I can understand why many of you would like the question the previous poll posed to Canadians because it is a black and white poll. Inform Canadians and then ask them. Add to the question that it is NATO and Canada running the show over there, not the Americans. Once Canadians know that, then their opinions will change and that would be reflected by more support for the war.

The Strategic Council is the exclusive supplier of public opinion research for the Globe and Mail and CTV. The Globe and Mail is probably the most left leaning private news agency in Canada. If you expect me to take their tripe and accept it as being worthy to be considered news or research, then I would only expect the same when I refer to CanWest Global National.

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Originally posted by Tiff:
The Globe and Mail is probably the most left leaning private news agency in Canada.

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I'm sure the Toronto Star would be surprised to hear that. I suspect the Globe and Mail would be as well since their editorial board endorsed the Conservatives in the last election and their traditional market has always been Bay Street, not Main Street.

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Tiff:
....where did it come from? Where did you find it, and where is the link?

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From the pollster. I have a subscription.

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Add to the question that it is NATO and Canada running the show over there, not the Americans.

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Yeah, right! And the Iraqi government is running the show in Iraq, not the Americans.

Bush barks, Blair and Harper fetch.

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The Globe and Mail is probably the most left leaning private news agency in Canada.

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Make that major private news agency. A lot of lesser ones are actually left rather than left leaning.

The major news agencies, including the G&M are so far to the right that even when leaning left they aren't left. It says a lot about how far away from the center society has travelled when papers like the G&M are seen as leftist.

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If you expect me to take their tripe and accept it as being worthy to be considered news or research, then I would only expect the same when I refer to CanWest Global National.

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They are both worthy in respect to promoting their vision of the reactionary agenda.

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That will never happen, so I'll just laugh again at the onesidedness of this discussion forum and move on.

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Originally posted by Tiff:
Canada running the show over there, not the Americans. Once Canadians know that, then their opinions will change and that would be reflected by more support for the war.

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“strongly” (25%) or “somewhat” (27%) support

I would compare Nazis with Taliban (though some would mistakenly associate Taliban with afghan population in general). However different, they share many common elements worth fighting against. The major difference is that at least Nazis treated their own population well. Taliban however would repress and execute woman, rape, and recruit children into army; basically establish a pseudo-religious genocide against their own population. Whatever regime is in power Afghanis are now BETTER off then during Taliban rule. Woman are now educated, children are in schools etc. Plus Canadian forces involved in humanitarian activities, like building roads, bridges, schools, hospitals.

Are we a bunch of fearsome rabbits that would run into woods when signs of danger in sight?

[ 11 September 2006: Message edited by: venus_man ]

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Originally posted by remind:
“strongly” (25%) or “somewhat” (27%) support

leave to a right winger to say 51%.

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Good grief. "Islamo-Nazi" to replace the term from the monkey in the White House "Islamo-fascist"?
That's dumber than Dubya. Who'd of thunk it.

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[ 11 September 2006: Message edited by: venus_man ]

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Originally posted by Tiff:
I respectfully submit that his subscription to IPSOS Reid is sceptical simply because he can't prove it or he can't do math.

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Normalizing fascism

On the other hand, if you share the xenophobic views of President Bush then perhaps it's time to go back to your home planet and report back.

[ 11 September 2006: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

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Whatever regime is in power Afghanis are now BETTER off then during Taliban rule.

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Plus Canadian forces involved in humanitarian activities, like building roads, bridges, schools, hospitals.

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Yet somehow we are now engaged in offensive search-and-destroy missions, hunting down and killing anyone suspected of opposing us.

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venus_man:
Allies never went to Europe to save Russia and Poland-that is an absurd statement.

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You're kidding, right?

The invasion of Poland triggered the war with France and England. The invasion of Russia triggered the war with Russia. History of The 20th Century 101.

The Americans were perfectly happy for the most part to stay out until the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, and then might have not gone to war in Europe except the Hitler was dumb enough to declare war on them.

The fact that the Nazis were scumbags was beside the point. Franco was a scumbag and they did not go to war with him. Saddam was a scumbag and they put him in power. Pinochet was a scumbag and they put him in power. Since WWII they have put a lot of scumbags in power. How evil people are is not an issue in the foreign policy of the US and its vassal countries (AKA allies).

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Taliban however would repress and execute woman, rape, and recruit children into army;....

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Sounds just like our allies, the warlords. The sins of the Taliban, grevious as they may be, are being blown way out of proportion in relationship to the rest of the Afghan society. You might be surprised at the results if a vote were held today about whether to take the Taliban back or continue with the current disorder.

Defeating the Taliban requires something much smarter and more sophisticated than brute military force. But, defeat of the Taliban for the allies is a PR gimmick, not a primary goal.

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Tiff:
I respectfully submit that his subscription to IPSOS Reid is sceptical simply because he can't prove it or he can't do math.

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Do you mean skeptical or are we speaking venusian?

The math is IPSOS, my subscription is real, not an unusual thing for a newspaper to have. The link is worthless without a subscription.

However, you can mine what you can from here:

Ipsos

Meanwhile:

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Musharraf allows Taliban to attack Canadian troops, security expert says
Last Updated Mon, 11 Sep 2006 12:13:41 EDT
CBC News

Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf has refused to clamp down on pro-Taliban elements in his own country and is allowing the militants to launch attacks on Canadian troops, a security expert says.

Canadian officers stationed in southern Afghanistan increasingly find young Pakistani men among the ranks of Taliban fighters who have trained in the radical mosques of Pakistan....

link

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If that's true you wouldn't mind getting the latest one from IPSOS Reid for CanWest Global, would you?

Canadian Reflect on Anniversary

The lead up story can be found here:

More Canadians Blaming US Policy for Spetember 11...

"Another key finding was that only 18 per cent of those polled believe that the Canadian government and police have gone too far in fighting terrorism at the expense of civil liberties. Another 43 per cent believe that a proper balance has been struck, while 33 per cent believe police and government should give themselves more powers."

[ 11 September 2006: Message edited by: Tiff ]

Likely we'll follow the same Iraq-America path... The casualties will mount on both sides... Huge numbers of civilians and whatever they decide to call taliban militants casualties(be it taliban or some other warlord in the region) with a lower but still large in sized NATO body count. Canadians will eventually realize that the current tactics are making an unwinnable war, if anything strengthening and not weakening the enemy. Unfortunately when you have no victory conditions beyond 'all bad guys are dead', you'll never find your victory... You'll simply find new 'bad guys'.

A defining moment between Americans and Canadians, is will Canadians wake to the fallacy of the war in more or less time than it took America to figure it out? Anyone got a really big eggtimer?

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I think that the situation in Afghanistan today is somewhat similar to that in Nazi Europe.

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If by somewhat similar you mean the letter z is similar to the number 4, then yes you have a point. Otherwise thats the funniest peice of your reality you've managed to post. With the exception of "Taliban are my evil flavor of the month", can you back any of that up (err... I should specify without making things up?) Now if you want a better peice to compare it to, go look up some Imperialistic wars and start comparing.

[ 11 September 2006: Message edited by: Noise ]

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US intel report: Iraq's Anbar province 'politically lost'

Chief Marine analyst says region's political vacuum being filled by Al Qaeda.

By Tom Regan | csmonitor.com

In a report that some have said is the most negative yet filed by a senior military officer in Iraq, the chief of intelligence for the US Marine Corps in Iraq concluded that the possibilities of the US and Iraqi governments securing the troubled western Iraqi province of Anbar are remote.

The Washington Post reports that Col. Pete Devlin's assessment, written in mid-August, also says that "there is almost nothing the US military can do to improve the political and social situation there."

One Army officer summarized it as arguing that in Anbar province, "We haven't been defeated militarily but we have been defeated politically – and that's where wars are won and lost." The "very pessimistic" statement, as one Marine officer called it, was dated Aug. 16 and sent to Washington shortly after that, and has been discussed across the Pentagon and elsewhere in national security circles. "I don't know if it is a shock wave, but it's made people uncomfortable," said a Defense Department official who has read the report. ...

Devlin reports that there are no functioning Iraqi government institutions in Anbar, leaving a vacuum that has been filled by the insurgent group Al Qaeda in Iraq, which has become the province's most significant political force, said the Army officer, who has read the report. Another person familiar with the report said it describes Anbar as beyond repair; a third said it concludes that the United States has lost in Anbar....

Christian Science Monitor

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Tiff:

"Another key finding was that only 18 per cent ....

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That is correct. The survey contains a long list of questions which I am not going to recount here but of interest are:

77% agree with:

While I was affected by 'Nine-Eleven' five years ago, my life outlook and activities are now almost exactly the way they were before the attacks took place.

and

Half (53%) Feel ‘Nine-Eleven’ Attacks Were Reaction By Certain Groups To Foreign Policies Of US government…

and

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:
Good grief. "Islamo-Nazi" to replace the term from the monkey in the White House "Islamo-fascist"?

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So, do the Taliban stand for freedom of secular socialist thought, land redistribution and banning bride price ?. Talibanization of Pakistan and Afghanistan was not on the people's agenda in those countries. If they're not oppressive feudalists, then what are they ?.

How is this different from what Latin America's right-wing death squads were pulling on poor women and children in recent history ?. Who are the Saudi royals to order children executed for insulting their name in public ?.

RAWA

[ 11 September 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Fidel:If they're not oppressive feudalists, then what are they ?.

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But like the European fascists of the 1930's, the Taliban were also aided serreptitiously by certain western interests. Names and faces have changed, sure, but the general intentions and outcomes were similar.

[ 11 September 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Fidel:
If they're not oppressive feudalists, then what are they ?.

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Feudal is probably closer than fascist but still debatable. Theocratic zealots is probably closer to the truth. The Taliban, the Christian Fundamentalists and the rabid Zionists have a lot more in common with each other than they do with rational people.

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Originally posted by Jerry West:

Feudal is probably closer than fascist but still debatable. Theocratic zealots is probably closer to the truth.

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Actually the allies fought the Germans because they invaded Poland and Russia.

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Is it worth noting that in 1939 the US had the 38th largest army in the world after Portugal? But yes, I think the US oil embargo against Japan was specifically designed to trigger a Japanese military response, and thus legitimize the war.

The US was already heavily engaged in lend-lease to the Chinese and British, well before IJN came anywhere near Pearl Harbour.

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The Americans were perfectly happy for the most part to stay out until the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, and then might have not gone to war in Europe except the Hitler was dumb enough to declare war on them.

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We are told that the terrorists are scumbags who will kill, that we are fighting to allow little girls to go to school and for Afghans to enjoy a democracy and a state like ours. These are all "good" things which do not permit any debate.

But the acceptance of this point of view without examination of how they jive with hard facts in the real world is making us dumb blunderers caught up in a self-referring realm of delusion, leading us deeper and deeper into disaster.

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