Here are some links to the Ni putes, ni soumises campaign. Please look at the photos of the march even if you don't read French. Of course if you do, you might want to sign the petition:

http://www.macite.net/home/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=15 ni putes ni soumises!

http://www.macite.net/petition/

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The neighborhood butcher, from Algeria, spoke as if the suburb was a world apart. "If a girl goes out, she's going to get into trouble...boys have needs. Where I come from, it's not normal that a girl goes out at night..."

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Originally posted by Rebecca West:
Just in case we needed a reminder of how much work remains to be done ...

I'm not even going to try to play cultural relativist here. This is less about a clash of mores and ideals than it is about the culturally supported and institutionalized devaluing and degrading of girls and women all over the world. And the male-supported conception that boys and men are not responsible for their behavior - being animals with uncontrollable desires - doesn't exactly elevate the male of the species either. What a sad, sad statement of our lack of whatever it is we think of as our 'humanity'.

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When these young people return for visits to the land of their ancestors, they realise how utterly European they are.

1. To promote the idea that "Islam" is hopelessly and irredeemably backwards and that Muslims can never be integrated into Europe/NA as Muslims.

2. To display the need for ways to deghettoize these young men, to enfranchize them in French culture and society, and to find ways in the meantime that these young women can find independent lives.

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To display the need for ways to deghettoize these young men, to enfranchize them in French culture and society

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That they hold those attitudes is not due to that they feel marginalized, but it is due to that they are.

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So their countries of origin aren't, y'know, maybe just a little patriarchal? Just an eensy bit?

A lot of people are marginalized, because they're darker than their neighbours or for other reasons, and don't turn to gang-raping girls to get their street cred either.

I would argue that their marginalization has to do with feeling misplaced, having little to do. I also think they find a sort of power and solidarity that they're missing in ganging up together and victimizing someone with less power. It's classic bully behaviour with an extremely disturbing twist.

I don't think that their chosen method of bullying is anything necessarily cultural, but rather just a sick fad. It's what happens there (not like that's the only place in the world where women are gang raped, remember), simply because it happens there--some group of sick little assholes thought it up one day, and then it caught on. I don't think it's fair or wise to essentialize about their cultural or ethnic backgrounds, nor do I think it's necessary to figuring out why and how this has been going on for so long and rooting it out.

Traditional perspectives on sexuality can be found just about anywhere, and no matter their foundations, they're equally detrimental to the people whose lives they ruin by allowing things like this to happen.

Look at the ones in France who are getting raped. Girls without Muslim headdress, girls in western clothing.

Anyone who is not dressed in chaste Islamic clothing is automatically considered a whore and deserving of whatever happens to them.

While there are undoubtably cultural influences, I don't think that these kids are gang-raping because they're muslim. I think that's only one small factor in the whole mess that created this situation. It should be considered, perhaps in any actions taken to end this epidemic, but I don't feel at all comfortable with this as a sole explanation.

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I don't think that these kids are gang-raping because they're muslim.

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Look at the ones in France who are getting raped. Girls without Muslim headdress, girls in western clothing.

Anyone who is not dressed in chaste Islamic clothing is automatically considered a whore and deserving of whatever happens to them.

That certainly isn't traditional French culture, not is it traditional Canadian culture. Any guesses on which culture this is a tradition in?

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Clearly that's not any kind of indication that the rapists are of one religion or another.

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Cultural, yes... but let us be cautious about assigning blame to only the cultures of "developing" nations, or only to Islamic religion

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"In Gang-Rape Hell: Life in Islamic France" pretty much indicates points to one religion & culture over all others.

You want to bury your head in the sand and pretend that this isn't mainly an Islamic problem in France? Go ahead. Just stay out of the neighborhoods.

[ 23 October 2003: Message edited by: HeywoodFloyd ]

[ 23 October 2003: Message edited by: HeywoodFloyd ]

Young native girls raped by white boys were considered "fair game" because they were drinking and got into their truck and may have been sexually assaulted at home, making them a sexual predator.

Anyone remember where that a case like this recently took place?

And in the good ol' USofA, there have been cases where young, mentally handicapped women were lured to a residence and gang-raped by young, white boys. The community reaction? "She came on to them."

Yes, really.

Anyone remember that group of boys in (I think it was) California who got points for the number of girls they had sex with--and there were many allegations that plenty of it was non-consensual. what was the reaction of the community? "Boys will be boys." "They're good boys, they wouldn't do that." "The girls deserved it, they were sluts."

It has nothing to do with being Muslim and nothing to do with being disenfranchised. Christian, buddhist, hindu, muslim, atheist and agnostic boys have all been known to rape, and I have never seen any indication that "enfranchised" men are less likely to rape. They are less likely to be caught and convicted if brought to trial, yes. Less likely to rape?

Isn't that just an eensy, teensy bit classist?

What it comes down to is a sense of entitlement to women's bodies, and a way of thinking about and viewing women that sees them as less fully human (if human at all). These attitudes exist across racial, cultural, religious, national, and socioeconomic boundaries.

To be sure, there are certain millieux that encourage such thinking. But they do not cause it or the resultant behaviour.

Cultural holdovers, frozen, and often exacerbated backward attitudes certainly exist in immigrant communities, but I don't find the behaviour of those young men particularly restricted to Arabs, Muslims, South Mediterraneans or any other single group. Older babblers might remember Eldridge Cleaver's book "Soul on Ice", an autobiography of a street tough becoming political, but practically a defence of Black men getting back at Whitey by taking his woman... and of course such legitimisation of violence always really impacts women in the disadvantaged minority group far more.

It does show how difficult a solution is. Most of those housing estates don't look particularly slummy, and not everyone is unemployed. Exclusion is a very difficult problem to tackle, and respect for women harder still to achieve.

(Edited to add): By the way, I've often stayed in predominantly immigrant neighbourhoods in Paris and Lyon. I'm middle-aged now, but I was no older than the Ni Putes Ni Soumises spokeswoman when I first visited France and looked at immigrant social movements there. The problems mentioned in this article are horrible and must be addressed, but it would be fault to give an impression of unrelenting hotbeds of crime.

There have been similar gang-related incidents in Montréal and Québec City - the youths involved were from various ethnic groups, don't recall any Muslims among them.

[ 23 October 2003: Message edited by: lagatta ]

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Originally posted by lagatta:
Well April, if your granny was from Southern Italy, a couple of generations ago it was underdeveloped indeed ... And Mediterranean attitudes of "honour" and shutting women away predate Christianity and Islam. There are lots of "honour crimes" in Sicily as well .

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Well, OK, you got me there - she's from Calabria. Some of my grandparents' attitudes really gave credence to the medieval history I studied, let me tell you... In their defense, they did change with the times; it's just that there have been occasional flashbacks to ingrained attitudes.

I like to point out to those who gripe about Islamic traditions concerning of women that the chadour isn't an Islamic custom at all - it's traditional Persian! The seclusion of women is also more Persian than Arabic - Persian women were hidden away at the time of Alexander the Great, whilst Arabic women were as often found on horseback as anywhere else. There is in fact a movement of "Islamic feminism" that tends to point these things out. Islam can actually be interpreted in quite feminist ways, if you work at it: witness a Hadith (saying of Muhammad) that it's even better to educate a daughter than a son, because she will go on to educate her children.

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Because overall, France is not that bad in regards to human rights.

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Originally posted by zaphod:
Gir: Is this a case for melting pot instead of multi-culturalism?

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No, it is a case for the salad bowl model instead of placing whole vegetables close to each other without any dressing or mixing and calling it a salad.

[ 30 October 2003: Message edited by: dianal who asked to be unregistered ]

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Originally posted by Rebecca West:
Compared to what?

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I agree. I didn't indicate that it was only Islamic women getting raped.

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No, HF, but you said gang rape is a Muslim tradition. As someone else has noted, the article doesn't mention the vast majority of residents of this neighbourhood who don't participate in gang rape.

The article doesn't mention the gang rapes and/or murders that take place on the Canadian prairies (among other places). One culture is not to blame.

And it's from the New York Times, after all. Gang rape is "banal" in France? In "working class districts" among "Muslims?"

This is sensationalist yellow journalism.

[ 23 October 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]

Go ahead, generalize about how white, christian Americans are backward thugs who can only express their impotence by violently raping their women.

[ 23 October 2003: Message edited by: WingNut ]

That happens more in certain South Asian regions, and is not the outcome of "culture" but of the police being subject to feudal landlords; some of our babblers from that part of the world could better explain that human and women's rights problem.

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Originally posted by WingNut:
Nope. I argue we stick with the stereotyping.
The number of rapes in the mostly, white christian USA dwarfs all other industrialized nations and out performs the second place western capital of rape, Canada, by a factor of three.

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The USA has almost ten times the population of Canada, is that factored in?

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Go ahead, generalize about how white, christian Americans are backward thugs who can only express their impotence by violently raping their women.

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[ 30 October 2003: Message edited by: dianal who asked to be unregistered ]

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This is sensationalist yellow journalism.

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Anyway, the thing that's most disturbing is the community attitude that the girls are responsible for the sexual assaults. That's a cultural attitude, and it has the ring of truth because it's not confined to any single culture. It's just a little more extreme or pervasive in some. But that whole concept of girls and women "inviting" rape and thereby dishonouring their families is a thread that runs through most cultures, including the ones that inhabit wealthy industrialized nations.

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Originally posted by Slim:
I think your irony detector is broken.

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[ 30 October 2003: Message edited by: dianal who asked to be unregistered ]

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There's also a thread of women's responsibility for the woes of man (his lust, his desire) that runs through the Judeo-Christian and Islamic religious doctrines.

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Is this sort of attitude limited to Judeo-Xian/Muslims cultures though? I know that there have been matriarchies, Trobriand (sp?) islanders and some NA indigenous nations in which such attitudes were apparently rare, but what of other, contemporary cultures.

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Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
Is this sort of attitude limited to Judeo-Xian/Muslims cultures though?

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I've heard terrible things about sexism among Japanese men, for instance. I'm not sure what I'm asking...is this attitude universal (with exceptions, of course)?

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Babble is mentioned in this FD thread about the same topic

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Yeah, and as usual for that den of dolts, they're blaming these rapes on their usual bugaboos: Islam, the French, multiculturalism and gun control.

Not to mention the guy with the Hitler quote as his signature taking potshots, apropos of nothing, at the workings of our Audra's digestive tract.

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I've seen some stuff on the behaviour of other primate species in regards to male control of female sexuality (it's depressingly common) but I also know that there's no documented cases of rape in any other primate species. It's a purely human phenomenon.

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So does it all come down to male control of female sexuality and reproduction taken to an extreme? Or is there something else going on? Does anyone know?

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Originally posted by Rebecca West:
I can think of very few cultures who do not, to some degree, hold women responsible for acts of violence against them, or for the aggressive sexual behaviors of men. The illogic of this attitude is confounding, to say the least, but it's so pervasive that I have to say I'm very curious about its roots, from a sociological and/or biological standpoint (if there is one).

And, of course, it's extremely difficult to separate religious tradition from culture. And religious doctrine from cultural interpretation. Confusing, at best.

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And then of course there are the much more appealing sexual behaviors of the bonobos. But I digress.

I think that the "look what you made me do" mindset is near-universal in the litany of excuses for bad behavior. We still accept "I hit him because he provoked me!" to an extent. (For a particularly disgusting example, some twisted souls blame Mathew Shepard for the gay-bashing that killed him; it was his fault, you see, for being gay in public. Auuuugh.)

The "she was asking for it" defense seems to have similar roots, in that malefactors want to blame their lack of self-control on another. I think, however, the reason that it's particularly institutionalized in a sexual context is that the violence is essentially being used - not by the perps, but by the community - as a tool of enforcement of the community sexual mores. See what I'm saying here? If you're not a good girl, THIS is what will happen to you. Dress the way we say, conform to the role we set, or you're on your own, kid. And if you're on your own, well, there are those big bad nasty men out there who will... and it's all your own fault for not behaving like we said.

It's been observed that, sadly, women are as guilty of practicing this community-conformity on other women as are men. In fact, many women learn the community dictates primarily from other women, as men are supposed to be keeping away from them. Besides the obvious, "this is what I was taught, and so I teach it to you," some of these women are carrying around baggage that they foist off on the younger generation: "I had to suffer this. Why should you be freer than I was?"

Now, why communities try to control female sexual behavior so much more strictly than male sexual behavior, that one has me stumped. Maybe it has to do with patrilineality - the need to know who fathered which child, for inheritance purposes. But that's just a guess.

Edited to add: Good lord, I seem to be attuned to Rebbeca West's brain today. What she said.

[ 24 October 2003: Message edited by: April Follies ]

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~phyl/anthro/coercion.html

My memory must be a bit faulty, because I could have sworn I'd read somewhere that rape by other primates had never been documented. Apparently it has, but only among orangutans.

The problem I suppose is in defining rape in a species where you literally "can't say no." I mean, because you can't speak. It's hard to ask a female chimp afterwards, so was it consensual? But I'll see if I can find the source I was thinking of.

I know that male chimps are quite violent. I've done a fair bit of reading on anthropology and evolutionary biology on that very subject--they're infanticidal, they kill females who stray from the troop, and they kill other males for various other reasons. That's what I meant when I said that they control female sexuality and reproduction--male chimps will kill an infant chimp if they know it was fathered by another chimp. And male chimps will attack and sometimes kill a female chimp who mates with a male outside the troop.

The interesting thing is, then, why doesn't it work? Because genetic studies show that 50% of hte offspring in any chimp troop is fathered by a chimp outside the troop. Female chimps are risking their lives to go off and mess around with another chimp, and they're not getting caught. There's lots of theories about why that is, but what I'm interested in, is why are female chimps so much more successful in controlling thier own sexuality than we are?

And why is it that among humans alone (or nearly alone) rape is a part of the control of female sexuality? Is it because "ordinary" violence, even carried to an extreme, isn't enough? (Witness the chimps.)

You know--this just came to me now, so it may not be well thought out, but how about:

The threat of stranger rape (even though it's much more rare than the domestic variety) serves to keep women and girls at home "where they belong" and behave so that they will keep the protection of the men (who may very well be the same ones who rape them) they belong to. This preserves male sexual access to females.

There's a twisted kind of logic there, isn't there?

Because rape, as a reproductive measure, isn't very productive. Your chances of attacking a woman when she's ovulating, impregnating her, and then her carrying the fetus to term and deciding to raise it--not good. So from that perspective it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

But if rape is a way to punish women who don't behave (by wearing the right clothes, staying home, not talking to strange men, etc.) then the chances of a female "straying" drastically reduce, thus enhancing men's certainty--in general--of the paternity of the children they're raising. ANd most male control of female reproduction and sexuality centres on ensuring the certainty of paternity.

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The interesting thing is, then, why doesn't it work? Because genetic studies show that 50% of hte offspring in any chimp troop is fathered by a chimp outside the troop. Female chimps are risking their lives to go off and mess around with another chimp, and they're not getting caught. There's lots of theories about why that is, but what I'm interested in, is why are female chimps so much more successful in controlling thier own sexuality than we are?

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In fact, I'd have to see some hard proof to believe that rape amongst chimps is so common that 50% of live births are the result of rape. Besides which, when male chimps raid a troop and take over, *they kill all the infants they think are not their own.* So if the situation is as you hypothesize, raiding would be so common you'd never see a live chimp infant.

Female reproductive strategies, paternity and community structure in wild West African chimpanzees

Gagneux, P; Boesch, C*; Woodruff, DS

Department of Biology and Center for Molecular Genetics, Zoologisches Institut Universitaet Basel, San Diego

Animal Behaviour [Anim. Behav.]. Vol. 57, no. 1, pp. 19-32. Jan 1999.

Although the variability and complexity of chimpanzee behaviour frustrates generalization, it is widely believed that social evolution in this species occurs in the context of the recognizable social group or community. We used a combination of field observations and noninvasive genotyping to study the genetic structure of a habituated community of 55 wild chimpanzees, Pan troglodytes verus, in the Tai Forest, Cote d'Ivoire. Pedigree relationships in that community show that female mate choice strategies are more variable than previously supposed and that the observed social groups are not the exclusive reproductive units. Genetic evidence based on nuclear microsatellite markers and behavioural observations reveal that females in the Tai forest actively seek mating partners outside their social unit; noncommunity males accounted for half the paternities over 5 years. This female mating strategy increases male gene flow between communities despite male philopatry, and negates the predicted higher relatedness among community males. Kin selection seems unlikely to explain the frequent cooperation and sharing observed among group males in this population. Similarly, inbreeding avoidance is probably not the sole cause of permanent adolescent female dispersal as a combination of extragroup mating and avoidance of incest with home group males would allow females to avoid inbreeding without the hazards associated with immigration into a new community. Extragroup mating as part of chimpanzee females' reproductive strategy may allow them to choose from a wider variety and number of males, without losing the resources and support provided by their male social group partners.

It's the only one I could find with an abstract.

Even more than about the spurious travellers' tales about France. (dianal, I'm not blaming you - but your wen-do instructor needs a kick on for her anglo stereotyping). Police can take advantage of their authority and women's vulnerability anywhere, but it is not something specifically French.

[ 30 October 2003: Message edited by: dianal who asked to be unregistered ]

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So does it all come down to male control of female sexuality and reproduction taken to an extreme? Or is there something else going on? Does anyone know?

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The reason men across the cultural mosaic hold women responsible for violence against them is because men are men regardless of the cultural upbringing.

Here in Noth America, "she asked for it" or "she wanted it" has been a common defence. I think we recall where raped women were held responsible for their choice of dress or for being out late. I think I even remember a case where a child was accused of being "sexually aggresive" thus mitigating her sexual assault by a male family member.

I think the reason more people aren't participating in these threads is that they aren't saying much new. It's kind of same old same old.

It certainly has nothing to do with people like lagatta participating in them. In the other threads that lagatta participates in, she always treats her fellow babblers with respect and her contributions are always appreciated.

dianal, you have to remember what you wrote in your first post

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have to agree with that... if a woman travelling france, reports to the police that she was raped, they will rape her again. Yes we see it as wrong as it is... they don't.

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It's not much different for a guy to say on a forum "if a guy comes to see a feminist doctor about erectile dysfunction, she will laugh at him. Yes, we see it as wrong as it is... they don't." Stereotypes are stupid. Let's have arguments about real issues.

If the moderators were watching you would have gotten a severe warning for your statement. lagatta chose to try to show you that what you said was a horribly stereotypical, instead of making a complaint to the moderators. That was her choice. You have a choice as well. You can apologize, or you can as you did in your many post try to weasel your way out of your statement.

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I did not say (I'm getting tired of saying this preface statement btw) that ONLY the french re-rape...I said that in France, many women who have travelled there, and many wen-do instructors stated that have heard this from others, who report being raped, are re-raped.

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With all due respect, you did not have any such subteltly in your original post. You did not say "many women", you did not talk of any anectodal evidence, you did not talk about any wen-do intructors.

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I made no mention of 'systemic'..I said it happens.

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No you didn't. You said "they will rape her again". Like it or not, "will" is pretty much the definition of systematic.

lagatta was not "disrespectful and self serving", in fact she was surprisingly civil by the standards around here.

[ 24 October 2003: Message edited by: Sara Mayo ]

I have never heard the stories you mention. They certainly could be true. I'll go abroad and say our RCMP is in the habit of sexually abusing young Native girls, why not? That happened too. But anglo racism against francophones is a reality as well, and I fear your wen-do instructor could be guilty of it. Look back at your post. It does not say this has happened at a certain point, but "it happens", as if it was a regular occurrence.

I am certainly not trying to exclude you from having your say on the feminism board or anywhere else - I think you have said and say a lot of valuable and important things.

[ 30 October 2003: Message edited by: dianal who asked to be unregistered ]

[ 30 October 2003: Message edited by: dianal who asked to be unregistered ]

As an objective observer. I wouldn't dare participate.

The whole thread started out with the link: a very small part,

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The phenomenon of gang rape in France has become banal.

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It seems to me dianal's post is backed up by the article. Whether the article is accurate or not is another question.

This is the second time this has happened. Are we in some kind of contest of 'Who is the best feminist, the perfect feminist?'

I am a crone and proud of it. I don't have the wart with the hair sprout but I do have one bloody hair that has ambitions of being a moustache.

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Originally posted by clersal:
Hey feminists! Are we or aren't we?

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In an effort to go back to the constructive commentary - lagatta's evidence of the young women mobilizing is indeed heartening. It shows an awareness on their part that they don't have to give up in the face of this community-indifference to their basic human rights. Is there a way that we can helpfully support their efforts? If they succeed in making good progress, perhaps they could provide a model to other women 'round the world who have similar troubles. I can think of some areas in the U.S. which could use a movement like that!

An additional issue that occurs to me, reading some of the earlier posts on this thread: does the haste to assign blame to some group (e.g., "it's all those immigrants") actually undercut the struggle of these women? Is it not another form of community indifference, by saying "well, what do you expect from ____?" I'm thinking that perhaps some people try to hijack the problem for an agenda that will not be of help to the young women themselves. Of course, I've just been reading accounts of the BBC expose on institutionalized anti-immigrant racism in the British police forces, so, well, that's where my brain's at.

[ 25 October 2003: Message edited by: April Follies ]

[ 30 October 2003: Message edited by: dianal who asked to be unregistered ]

[ 30 October 2003: Message edited by: dianal who asked to be unregistered ]

Let me say this quite clearly: I was not, in fact, even thinking of dianal's post when I posted about 'constructive commentary'. I was thinking about the request made by clersal that we get away from the arguing. So, I thought I'd do just that.

I realize that I've said things in another thread that offend dianal; however, I have been making every effort to avoid a re-offense. Thus, I am particularly exasperated at being accused of doing exactly what I've bent over backwards to avoid. For the sake of clarity:

* I do not think I'm a 'better feminist' than anyone; in fact, I don't believe there really is such a thing. I may agree or disagree with views presented, or the way they're presented, as is my right. That's all.

* I do not intend to attempt to one-up dianal, or anyone else. Because of the past dispute, I've actually been avoiding responding to her posts, because anything I say seems to upset her. I'm hardly going to leave a thread in which I was already participating, however. I also am not going to change a style of address which has not troubled 99% of Babble posters previously, for the sake of one poster who takes everything I say as offensive.

* If someone dislikes the attitudes of most of the people on a particular forum, I cannot see how it will further anyone's health and happiness for them to continuing to lambast those persons on their own forum. Having myself gone this route once, I can personally testify that it's not at all effective and causes only needless ulcers.

* And finally, henceforward I intend to pursue a policy of completely ignoring every post from dianal, so that I cannot possibly be accused of referring to her in a slighting fashion. I shall not be referring to her at all, in any way, shape, or form. Since our personalities and approaches seem to be so different that we set one another off without ever intending to, that's the only route I can see to stop a merry-go-round of argumentation.

[ 26 October 2003: Message edited by: Michelle ]

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In an effort to go back to the constructive commentary - lagatta's evidence of the young women mobilizing is indeed heartening.

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I'm not usually a person who angers easily or becomes aggressive, but her comment about me, "you must be a male" as well as other disparaging remarks makes me want to put on the gloves and step into the ring. I will think some more about not responding to her. I have left previous threads because of what she was saying, but it would be better to ignore her.

[ 26 October 2003: Message edited by: windymustang ]

Anyhow, I noticed that they now have a website specifically dedicated to the movement (a very recent development) so I thought I'd provide a link for those interested: www.niputesnisoumises.com.

I mentioned the "www.niputesnisoumises.com" site on my blog, and the fact they were soliciting a "symbolic euro" donation. Happily, a couple of people contacted me saying they'd like to donate! Unhappily, um, they said that from the site they weren't quite sure how to go about it.

Just mailing them a $ bill - you do still have those in the US? - would be approximately equal to a Euro, and probably much easier than a money transfer for such a teensy amount.