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Author Topic: Horrible
zaphod
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posted 23 October 2003 09:04 AM      Profile for zaphod     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
http://www.iht.com/cgi-bin/generic.cgi?template=articleprint.tmplh&ArticleId=114798
From: toronto | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
Gentlebreeze
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posted 23 October 2003 12:06 PM      Profile for Gentlebreeze     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Such horror...

It breaks my heart to think of how frequently women/girls are subjected to this type of torture. I cannot comprehend this inhumanity. Civilization my ass.


From: Thornhill | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
zaphod
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posted 23 October 2003 12:19 PM      Profile for zaphod     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I agree. It is so bad that I can't even read about it sometimes.
From: toronto | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 23 October 2003 12:21 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Young women and girls in tough immigrant suburbs in France have been organising and fighting back against these outrages and the sexism and alienation that make them possible. "Ni putes, ni soumises" (Neither whores nor submissive women) was the central theme of the 8th of March demonstration in Paris this year, and concerts and a national tour and petition drive have also been organised.

Here are some links to the Ni putes, ni soumises campaign. Please look at the photos of the march even if you don't read French. Of course if you do, you might want to sign the petition:

http://www.macite.net/home/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=15 ni putes ni soumises!

http://www.macite.net/petition/

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/fred-creation/pro/bank/8mars03/


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Rebecca West
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posted 23 October 2003 12:42 PM      Profile for Rebecca West     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
The neighborhood butcher, from Algeria, spoke as if the suburb was a world apart. "If a girl goes out, she's going to get into trouble...boys have needs. Where I come from, it's not normal that a girl goes out at night..."
Just in case we needed a reminder of how much work remains to be done ...

I'm not even going to try to play cultural relativist here. This is less about a clash of mores and ideals than it is about the culturally supported and institutionalized devaluing and degrading of girls and women all over the world. And the male-supported conception that boys and men are not responsible for their behavior - being animals with uncontrollable desires - doesn't exactly elevate the male of the species either. What a sad, sad statement of our lack of whatever it is we think of as our 'humanity'.


From: London , Ontario - homogeneous maximus | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
athena_dreaming
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posted 23 October 2003 12:45 PM      Profile for athena_dreaming   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rebecca West:
Just in case we needed a reminder of how much work remains to be done ...

I'm not even going to try to play cultural relativist here. This is less about a clash of mores and ideals than it is about the culturally supported and institutionalized devaluing and degrading of girls and women all over the world. And the male-supported conception that boys and men are not responsible for their behavior - being animals with uncontrollable desires - doesn't exactly elevate the male of the species either. What a sad, sad statement of our lack of whatever it is we think of as our 'humanity'.


Yup.


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 23 October 2003 01:01 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Cultural relativism is utter bullshit in this case. These young men are FRENCH - whether their parents or often nowadays their grandparents hailed from Algeria, Martinique or Senegal. They experience discrimination and racism, but so do the young women in their neighbourhoods, who also have to put up with these young macho cretins' atrocious behaviour.

When these young people return for visits to the land of their ancestors, they realise how utterly European they are.

My only fear is that all tend to be concentrating only on the horror of this sexist outrage and not on the courageous way the young women are fighting back, the importance and scope of their movement in a new wave of feminism incorporating the demands of youth of different ethnic backgrounds - and not putting up with culturalist crap.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
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posted 23 October 2003 01:30 PM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The IHT article didn't give the full title of the book. Here it is. In Gang-Rape Hell: Life in Islamic France

http://indymedia.org.uk/en/2003/08/275522.html


From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 23 October 2003 01:53 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A lot of the wave of so-called Arab or Islamist anti-semitism in tough French suburbs has the same roots: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3205330.stm - on the attack on Rabbi Michel Serfaty, ironically long a voice for peace and support of the demands of Muslim as well as Jewish North Africans in France.
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 23 October 2003 02:08 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Such events and acts are terrible, but there are two ways that they can be used:

1. To promote the idea that "Islam" is hopelessly and irredeemably backwards and that Muslims can never be integrated into Europe/NA as Muslims.

2. To display the need for ways to deghettoize these young men, to enfranchize them in French culture and society, and to find ways in the meantime that these young women can find independent lives.

Most babblers, I suspect, will support option 2. But why do I get the idea that certain people are thinking of option 1? I'll answer that: my experience of their prior behaviour.


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lagatta
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posted 23 October 2003 02:28 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yeah Mandos. We must not forget that the majority of the young feminist women who organised "Ni putes ni soumises" are from Muslim backgrounds as well. Important as the young woman' story is, I find the title chosen for her book very unfortunate. Ghetto life produces little ghetto lords who target their own people, whatever the religion or national origin.

Moreover, I believe in the first story that particular group of young men were from the French West Indies, and thus most likely of Christian cultural background.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 23 October 2003 02:45 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
To display the need for ways to deghettoize these young men, to enfranchize them in French culture and society

Which is the cart and which the horse? Are these young men gang-raping their neighbours because they feel marginalized? Or are they marginalized because of whatever attitudes they hold that permit them to gang-rape young women?


From: `,_,`,_,,_,, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 23 October 2003 02:51 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That they hold those attitudes is not due to that they feel marginalized, but it is due to that they are. If they were not marginalized (and thereby left with, as the article says, their virility as a major source of self-worth), then I think they would be less likely to gang-rape.

Many people have patriarchal attitudes and do not gang-rape.


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zaphod
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posted 23 October 2003 02:57 PM      Profile for zaphod     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
My view is that Mando's number 1 is closer to the truth. If one looks at Islamic nations one finds the tendancy for violence against women which is much greater than other places. Of course this occurs everywhere but not , I believe, to the same extent.
From: toronto | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 23 October 2003 03:09 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
That they hold those attitudes is not due to that they feel marginalized, but it is due to that they are.

So their countries of origin aren't, y'know, maybe just a little patriarchal? Just an eensy bit?

A lot of people are marginalized, because they're darker than their neighbours or for other reasons, and don't turn to gang-raping girls to get their street cred either.

And y'know, maybe I'm old-fashioned here, but if you want to prove your virility then by all means sleep with a woman, but get her consent first, eh?


From: `,_,`,_,,_,, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Lima Bean
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posted 23 October 2003 03:27 PM      Profile for Lima Bean   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
As I understood the article, the countries of origin of these rapists are varied. They're not all muslim, and they're not all from the same place.

I would argue that their marginalization has to do with feeling misplaced, having little to do. I also think they find a sort of power and solidarity that they're missing in ganging up together and victimizing someone with less power. It's classic bully behaviour with an extremely disturbing twist.

I don't think that their chosen method of bullying is anything necessarily cultural, but rather just a sick fad. It's what happens there (not like that's the only place in the world where women are gang raped, remember), simply because it happens there--some group of sick little assholes thought it up one day, and then it caught on. I don't think it's fair or wise to essentialize about their cultural or ethnic backgrounds, nor do I think it's necessary to figuring out why and how this has been going on for so long and rooting it out.

Traditional perspectives on sexuality can be found just about anywhere, and no matter their foundations, they're equally detrimental to the people whose lives they ruin by allowing things like this to happen.

I don't for a minute hold any pretense that this couldn't happen in an isolated or relatively closed community here in Canada. It is, after all just a neighborhood in Paris; why couldn't it be a neighborhood in Toronto?


From: s | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
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posted 23 October 2003 03:35 PM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
One of the many reasons that women in islamic countries are required to wear chadors etc. is to protect them from the men, who are told that they are not capable of restraining themselves around women.

Look at the ones in France who are getting raped. Girls without Muslim headdress, girls in western clothing.

Anyone who is not dressed in chaste Islamic clothing is automatically considered a whore and deserving of whatever happens to them.

That certainly isn't traditional French culture, not is it traditional Canadian culture. Any guesses on which culture this is a tradition in?


From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Lima Bean
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posted 23 October 2003 03:43 PM      Profile for Lima Bean   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Here in Canada, girls who dress sexy or drink too much at parties are apparently "fair game".

While there are undoubtably cultural influences, I don't think that these kids are gang-raping because they're muslim. I think that's only one small factor in the whole mess that created this situation. It should be considered, perhaps in any actions taken to end this epidemic, but I don't feel at all comfortable with this as a sole explanation.

It's not uncommon to hear White Christian Canadian Men talking about uncontrollable male urges either, HF. I think we can't just sum this up as a "cultural thing" and 'tisk tisk' about it. I think it's much more pervasive and widespread. This just happens to be a particularly bad case of it.


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Mr. Magoo
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posted 23 October 2003 03:49 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I don't think that these kids are gang-raping because they're muslim.

As Lagatta mentioned above, they might not be Muslim at all. So I don't think religion is the proximate cause. But the entirely unsympathetic reaction of the community to the women who've been raped suggests (to me, anyway) that it's cultural.


From: `,_,`,_,,_,, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Lima Bean
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posted 23 October 2003 03:56 PM      Profile for Lima Bean   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That's kinda what I was getting at, Magoo. I was arguing with HF's assertions:

quote:
Look at the ones in France who are getting raped. Girls without Muslim headdress, girls in western clothing.

Anyone who is not dressed in chaste Islamic clothing is automatically considered a whore and deserving of whatever happens to them.

That certainly isn't traditional French culture, not is it traditional Canadian culture. Any guesses on which culture this is a tradition in?


Thing is, HF--the girls not dressed in "chaste Islamic clothing" etc. are just girls in the neighborhood. Pretty much any girl who isn't carefully protected by her family is at risk, as the article puts it.


From: s | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
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posted 23 October 2003 03:59 PM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I agree. I didn't indicate that it was only Islamic women getting raped.
From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Lima Bean
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posted 23 October 2003 04:06 PM      Profile for Lima Bean   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Clearly that's not any kind of indication that the rapists are of one religion or another. It also does nothing to suggest that this kind of thing couldn't (and doesn't) happen anywhere else in the world.

Like others have said above, I think this all goes to show how much work we have to do in equalizing the power dynamics between men and women, and building genuine respect for women and their bodies.


From: s | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
April Follies
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posted 23 October 2003 04:06 PM      Profile for April Follies   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Cultural, yes... but let us be cautious about assigning blame to only the cultures of "developing" nations, or only to Islamic religion. 'Cause if you asked my Italian, Catholic grandmother about that, she'd tell you it's what happens to Bad Girls, yes she would. To this day. And let's not forget Florida, where, a few years ago, a man was acquitted of rape, by a jury of largely European-descended and Christian folks, because the woman's clothing was deemed provocative.

We've all got a lot of work ahead of us, alas.


From: Help, I'm stuck in the USA | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
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posted 23 October 2003 04:23 PM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Clearly that's not any kind of indication that the rapists are of one religion or another.

quote:
Cultural, yes... but let us be cautious about assigning blame to only the cultures of "developing" nations, or only to Islamic religion

"In Gang-Rape Hell: Life in Islamic France" pretty much indicates points to one religion & culture over all others.

You want to bury your head in the sand and pretend that this isn't mainly an Islamic problem in France? Go ahead. Just stay out of the neighborhoods.

[ 23 October 2003: Message edited by: HeywoodFloyd ]

[ 23 October 2003: Message edited by: HeywoodFloyd ]


From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
athena_dreaming
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posted 23 October 2003 04:23 PM      Profile for athena_dreaming   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Uhh...this sort of thing does happen here, and has happened here. And community reactions have been pretty much the same when it's happened.

Young native girls raped by white boys were considered "fair game" because they were drinking and got into their truck and may have been sexually assaulted at home, making them a sexual predator.

Anyone remember where that a case like this recently took place?

And in the good ol' USofA, there have been cases where young, mentally handicapped women were lured to a residence and gang-raped by young, white boys. The community reaction? "She came on to them."

Yes, really.

Anyone remember that group of boys in (I think it was) California who got points for the number of girls they had sex with--and there were many allegations that plenty of it was non-consensual. what was the reaction of the community? "Boys will be boys." "They're good boys, they wouldn't do that." "The girls deserved it, they were sluts."

It has nothing to do with being Muslim and nothing to do with being disenfranchised. Christian, buddhist, hindu, muslim, atheist and agnostic boys have all been known to rape, and I have never seen any indication that "enfranchised" men are less likely to rape. They are less likely to be caught and convicted if brought to trial, yes. Less likely to rape?

Isn't that just an eensy, teensy bit classist?

What it comes down to is a sense of entitlement to women's bodies, and a way of thinking about and viewing women that sees them as less fully human (if human at all). These attitudes exist across racial, cultural, religious, national, and socioeconomic boundaries.

To be sure, there are certain millieux that encourage such thinking. But they do not cause it or the resultant behaviour.

In the end, I find this kind of thinking no better than "men are animals who can't control their urges." Men CAN control their urges. They can also confront their cultural upbringing and find better, more appropriate targets for their anger at being disenfranchised. I will not let them off the hook for any of these excuses or direct my anger or blame anywhere but at them directly.


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 23 October 2003 04:25 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well April, if your granny was from Southern Italy, a couple of generations ago it was underdeveloped indeed ... And Mediterranean attitudes of "honour" and shutting women away predate Christianity and Islam. There are lots of "honour crimes" in Sicily as well .

Cultural holdovers, frozen, and often exacerbated backward attitudes certainly exist in immigrant communities, but I don't find the behaviour of those young men particularly restricted to Arabs, Muslims, South Mediterraneans or any other single group. Older babblers might remember Eldridge Cleaver's book "Soul on Ice", an autobiography of a street tough becoming political, but practically a defence of Black men getting back at Whitey by taking his woman... and of course such legitimisation of violence always really impacts women in the disadvantaged minority group far more.

It does show how difficult a solution is. Most of those housing estates don't look particularly slummy, and not everyone is unemployed. Exclusion is a very difficult problem to tackle, and respect for women harder still to achieve.

(Edited to add): By the way, I've often stayed in predominantly immigrant neighbourhoods in Paris and Lyon. I'm middle-aged now, but I was no older than the Ni Putes Ni Soumises spokeswoman when I first visited France and looked at immigrant social movements there. The problems mentioned in this article are horrible and must be addressed, but it would be fault to give an impression of unrelenting hotbeds of crime.

There have been similar gang-related incidents in Montral and Qubec City - the youths involved were from various ethnic groups, don't recall any Muslims among them.

[ 23 October 2003: Message edited by: lagatta ]


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
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posted 23 October 2003 04:52 PM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It is true that this is not restricted to one ethnic group, but it does seem that it occurs a lot mor eamong immigrants. Which is why some people may use incidents like this to incriminate "aliens" wholesale.

If those males were fully integrated into French society instead of being segregated into their own ethnic groups in those "ghettoes", I think this would be less of a problem. Because overall, France is not that bad in regards to human rights.


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zaphod
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posted 23 October 2003 04:57 PM      Profile for zaphod     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Gir: Is this a case for melting pot instead of multi-culturalism?
From: toronto | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
April Follies
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posted 23 October 2003 05:00 PM      Profile for April Follies   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lagatta:
Well April, if your granny was from Southern Italy, a couple of generations ago it was underdeveloped indeed ... And Mediterranean attitudes of "honour" and shutting women away predate Christianity and Islam. There are lots of "honour crimes" in Sicily as well .

Well, OK, you got me there - she's from Calabria. Some of my grandparents' attitudes really gave credence to the medieval history I studied, let me tell you... In their defense, they did change with the times; it's just that there have been occasional flashbacks to ingrained attitudes.

I like to point out to those who gripe about Islamic traditions concerning of women that the chadour isn't an Islamic custom at all - it's traditional Persian! The seclusion of women is also more Persian than Arabic - Persian women were hidden away at the time of Alexander the Great, whilst Arabic women were as often found on horseback as anywhere else. There is in fact a movement of "Islamic feminism" that tends to point these things out. Islam can actually be interpreted in quite feminist ways, if you work at it: witness a Hadith (saying of Muhammad) that it's even better to educate a daughter than a son, because she will go on to educate her children.

Actual practice is, of course, somewhat divorced from theoretical theology. Nonetheless it can be helpful to point these things out to, er, certain persons (*cough*Berluscioni*cough*) of the "clash of civilizations" mentality.


From: Help, I'm stuck in the USA | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Rebecca West
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posted 23 October 2003 05:14 PM      Profile for Rebecca West     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Because overall, France is not that bad in regards to human rights.
Compared to what?

From: London , Ontario - homogeneous maximus | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
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posted 23 October 2003 05:25 PM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by zaphod:
Gir: Is this a case for melting pot instead of multi-culturalism?

No, it is a case for the salad bowl model instead of placing whole vegetables close to each other without any dressing or mixing and calling it a salad.

Integration is neither assimilation or segregation.


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mighty brutus
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posted 23 October 2003 05:50 PM      Profile for mighty brutus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What happened to personal responsibility and accountability? The perpetrators' ethnicity or economic condition is of no consequence. What about the vast majority of people who share these conditions and don't go around raping people?

From: Beautiful Burnaby, British Columbia | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
April Follies
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posted 23 October 2003 05:57 PM      Profile for April Follies   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, mighty brutus, yes, but remember there's a difference between explaining an action and excusing it.

I may go to great lengths to try to understand why rape occurs, and discuss those factors (ad nauseum, I'm sure). But it'll be a cold day in hell before I excuse such behavior. We all have our motivations to antisocial behavior, but we all have a responsibility to control 'em. Explanations only become excuses if for some reason that self-control is impinged upon, as by being clinically insane or somesuch.


From: Help, I'm stuck in the USA | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
zaphod
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posted 23 October 2003 06:02 PM      Profile for zaphod     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I believe that the purpetrators do not believe that rape is wrong.
From: toronto | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
dianal who asked to be unregistered
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posted 23 October 2003 06:04 PM      Profile for dianal who asked to be unregistered     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

[ 30 October 2003: Message edited by: dianal who asked to be unregistered ]


From: There is a deep lack of respect in the belief that we know what others need... | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
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posted 23 October 2003 06:24 PM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rebecca West:
Compared to what?

France has a better huamn rights record than countries such as China, Saudi Arabia, Cuba...


From: Arkham Asylum | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
zaphod
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posted 23 October 2003 06:26 PM      Profile for zaphod     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That's not saying much is it. They do have good cheese and wine.
From: toronto | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 23 October 2003 07:28 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I agree. I didn't indicate that it was only Islamic women getting raped.

No, HF, but you said gang rape is a Muslim tradition. As someone else has noted, the article doesn't mention the vast majority of residents of this neighbourhood who don't participate in gang rape.

The article doesn't mention the gang rapes and/or murders that take place on the Canadian prairies (among other places). One culture is not to blame.

And it's from the New York Times, after all. Gang rape is "banal" in France? In "working class districts" among "Muslims?"

This is sensationalist yellow journalism.

[ 23 October 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 23 October 2003 07:47 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Nope. I argue we stick with the stereotyping.
The number of rapes in the mostly, white christian USA dwarfs all other industrialized nations and out performs the second place western capital of rape, Canada, by a factor of three.

Go ahead, generalize about how white, christian Americans are backward thugs who can only express their impotence by violently raping their women.

[ 23 October 2003: Message edited by: WingNut ]


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 23 October 2003 08:09 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
dianal, are you being facetious? Far from me to defend the French police, who mostly have a rep of being trigger-happy and rough with Black and Arab youth, mostly with young men. But it is certainly not common for women in France to be "re-raped" at police stations.

That happens more in certain South Asian regions, and is not the outcome of "culture" but of the police being subject to feudal landlords; some of our babblers from that part of the world could better explain that human and women's rights problem.

In general France has a far lower rate of sexual assault than the US. And many people in immigrant suburbs quite rightly think young thugs are exactly that.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
EarthShadow
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posted 23 October 2003 08:20 PM      Profile for EarthShadow        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
Nope. I argue we stick with the stereotyping.
The number of rapes in the mostly, white christian USA dwarfs all other industrialized nations and out performs the second place western capital of rape, Canada, by a factor of three.

The USA has almost ten times the population of Canada, is that factored in?

quote:
Go ahead, generalize about how white, christian Americans are backward thugs who can only express their impotence by violently raping their women.

You just did, and it's hateful nastiness.
Or is it just some of that there moral equivalence stuff meant to confound us rubes?


From: somewhere in a circle | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 23 October 2003 08:23 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think your irony detector is broken.
From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
dianal who asked to be unregistered
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posted 23 October 2003 08:28 PM      Profile for dianal who asked to be unregistered     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

[ 30 October 2003: Message edited by: dianal who asked to be unregistered ]


From: There is a deep lack of respect in the belief that we know what others need... | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 23 October 2003 09:38 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
We know of it happening even in English-speaking Canada, eh? and underaged Aboriginal girls assaulted by Mounties. Of course it happens and far from me to defend the police. But it certainly isn't systematic in France - that is ludicrous. (I've lived in France and am very much in touch with feminist movements there). Wen-do is great, but your instructor could well have a dose of anglo ethnocentrism that isn't a lot less offensive than machismo.
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Rebecca West
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posted 23 October 2003 10:32 PM      Profile for Rebecca West     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
This is sensationalist yellow journalism.
Yes, it is. But the NYT likes to obliquely (or directly, as the case may be) suggest that Islam is the epicentre of all evil. This allows them to avoid doing the work that's required in careful analysis of complex problems.

Anyway, the thing that's most disturbing is the community attitude that the girls are responsible for the sexual assaults. That's a cultural attitude, and it has the ring of truth because it's not confined to any single culture. It's just a little more extreme or pervasive in some. But that whole concept of girls and women "inviting" rape and thereby dishonouring their families is a thread that runs through most cultures, including the ones that inhabit wealthy industrialized nations.

There's also a thread of women's responsibility for the woes of man (his lust, his desire) that runs through the Judeo-Christian and Islamic religious doctrines. Depending upon your interpretation, this concept either elevates or debase women in relation to men. Personally, I think it serves neither sex very well.


From: London , Ontario - homogeneous maximus | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 23 October 2003 10:57 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Slim:
I think your irony detector is broken.

Boy, is it ever.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
EarthShadow
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posted 23 October 2003 11:35 PM      Profile for EarthShadow        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
No, Wingnut, you think you can slip in hate speech masquerading as irony.

Not everyone is going to look the other way.


From: somewhere in a circle | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 23 October 2003 11:48 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
All together now: WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH!

(Damn flood control!)

From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
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posted 24 October 2003 12:32 AM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Remember this thread?
From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
dianal who asked to be unregistered
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posted 24 October 2003 12:33 AM      Profile for dianal who asked to be unregistered     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

[ 30 October 2003: Message edited by: dianal who asked to be unregistered ]


From: There is a deep lack of respect in the belief that we know what others need... | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 24 October 2003 01:57 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
There's also a thread of women's responsibility for the woes of man (his lust, his desire) that runs through the Judeo-Christian and Islamic religious doctrines.

Is this sort of attitude limited to Judeo-Xian/Muslims cultures though? I know that there have been matriarchies, Trobriand (sp?) islanders and some NA indigenous nations in which such attitudes were apparently rare, but what of other, contemporary cultures.

I've heard terrible things about sexism among Japanese men, for instance. I'm not sure what I'm asking...is this attitude universal (with exceptions, of course)?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Pogo
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posted 24 October 2003 03:30 AM      Profile for Pogo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
Is this sort of attitude limited to Judeo-Xian/Muslims cultures though?

Herodotus blamed Helen for the Trojan war. Something about no woman is taken by marauding pirates unless she wants to go. You would think it was written by the same people who shouted down Margaret Mitchell.


From: Richmond BC | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
zaphod
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posted 24 October 2003 10:03 AM      Profile for zaphod     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Babble is mentioned in this FD thread about the same topic
http://www.freedominion.ca/phpBB2//viewtopic.php?topic=15298&forum=11

From: toronto | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
Rebecca West
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posted 24 October 2003 10:48 AM      Profile for Rebecca West     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I've heard terrible things about sexism among Japanese men, for instance. I'm not sure what I'm asking...is this attitude universal (with exceptions, of course)?
I can think of very few cultures who do not, to some degree, hold women responsible for acts of violence against them, or for the aggressive sexual behaviors of men. The illogic of this attitude is confounding, to say the least, but it's so pervasive that I have to say I'm very curious about its roots, from a sociological and/or biological standpoint (if there is one).

And, of course, it's extremely difficult to separate religious tradition from culture. And religious doctrine from cultural interpretation. Confusing, at best.


From: London , Ontario - homogeneous maximus | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
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posted 24 October 2003 11:02 AM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Babble is mentioned in this FD thread about the same topic

Yeah, and as usual for that den of dolts, they're blaming these rapes on their usual bugaboos: Islam, the French, multiculturalism and gun control.

Not to mention the guy with the Hitler quote as his signature taking potshots, apropos of nothing, at the workings of our Audra's digestive tract.

Nice company you keep, Zaph.


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
athena_dreaming
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posted 24 October 2003 11:15 AM      Profile for athena_dreaming   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I agree, Rebecca. And I want to know where this comes from to. I've seen some stuff on the behaviour of other primate species in regards to male control of female sexuality (it's depressingly common) but I also know that there's no documented cases of rape in any other primate species. It's a purely human phenomenon.

So does it all come down to male control of female sexuality and reproduction taken to an extreme? Or is there something else going on? Does anyone know?


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
zaphod
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posted 24 October 2003 12:03 PM      Profile for zaphod     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I enjoy seeing both sides of stories
From: toronto | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
Rebecca West
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posted 24 October 2003 01:11 PM      Profile for Rebecca West     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I've seen some stuff on the behaviour of other primate species in regards to male control of female sexuality (it's depressingly common) but I also know that there's no documented cases of rape in any other primate species. It's a purely human phenomenon.
I believe that fairly recent studies (mid-70s onward) on chimpanzees in the wild have concluded that, with the exception of the relatively gentle and egalitarian bonobos, chimpanzee males are violent and do display behaviors we would equate with sexual jealousy. They raid, murder and rape, apparently. Here's an interesting article on the subject.
quote:
So does it all come down to male control of female sexuality and reproduction taken to an extreme? Or is there something else going on? Does anyone know?
I'm speculating that that's alot of it. But I don't actually know.

From: London , Ontario - homogeneous maximus | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Meowful
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posted 24 October 2003 01:13 PM      Profile for Meowful   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rebecca West:
I can think of very few cultures who do not, to some degree, hold women responsible for acts of violence against them, or for the aggressive sexual behaviors of men. The illogic of this attitude is confounding, to say the least, but it's so pervasive that I have to say I'm very curious about its roots, from a sociological and/or biological standpoint (if there is one).

And, of course, it's extremely difficult to separate religious tradition from culture. And religious doctrine from cultural interpretation. Confusing, at best.



It comes from the Bible, of course. Big bad Eve was soooo evil, she's the one who gave that rotten apple to Adam!
So women are blamed for leading men down the path of evil... whether or not they have an apple in their hands...

From: British Columbia | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
April Follies
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posted 24 October 2003 01:22 PM      Profile for April Follies   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think chimpanzees may show some forcible sexual behaviors. Of course, our definitions of rape kind of break down when applied to nonhuman animals, since it's hard to define "consent" in that context. I know chimps will mount other chimps (of either sex) as a dominance behavior.

And then of course there are the much more appealing sexual behaviors of the bonobos. But I digress.

I think that the "look what you made me do" mindset is near-universal in the litany of excuses for bad behavior. We still accept "I hit him because he provoked me!" to an extent. (For a particularly disgusting example, some twisted souls blame Mathew Shepard for the gay-bashing that killed him; it was his fault, you see, for being gay in public. Auuuugh.)

The "she was asking for it" defense seems to have similar roots, in that malefactors want to blame their lack of self-control on another. I think, however, the reason that it's particularly institutionalized in a sexual context is that the violence is essentially being used - not by the perps, but by the community - as a tool of enforcement of the community sexual mores. See what I'm saying here? If you're not a good girl, THIS is what will happen to you. Dress the way we say, conform to the role we set, or you're on your own, kid. And if you're on your own, well, there are those big bad nasty men out there who will... and it's all your own fault for not behaving like we said.

It's been observed that, sadly, women are as guilty of practicing this community-conformity on other women as are men. In fact, many women learn the community dictates primarily from other women, as men are supposed to be keeping away from them. Besides the obvious, "this is what I was taught, and so I teach it to you," some of these women are carrying around baggage that they foist off on the younger generation: "I had to suffer this. Why should you be freer than I was?"

Now, why communities try to control female sexual behavior so much more strictly than male sexual behavior, that one has me stumped. Maybe it has to do with patrilineality - the need to know who fathered which child, for inheritance purposes. But that's just a guess.

Edited to add: Good lord, I seem to be attuned to Rebbeca West's brain today. What she said.

[ 24 October 2003: Message edited by: April Follies ]


From: Help, I'm stuck in the USA | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
athena_dreaming
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posted 24 October 2003 02:38 PM      Profile for athena_dreaming   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This was an interesting link:

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~phyl/anthro/coercion.html

My memory must be a bit faulty, because I could have sworn I'd read somewhere that rape by other primates had never been documented. Apparently it has, but only among orangutans.

The problem I suppose is in defining rape in a species where you literally "can't say no." I mean, because you can't speak. It's hard to ask a female chimp afterwards, so was it consensual? But I'll see if I can find the source I was thinking of.

I know that male chimps are quite violent. I've done a fair bit of reading on anthropology and evolutionary biology on that very subject--they're infanticidal, they kill females who stray from the troop, and they kill other males for various other reasons. That's what I meant when I said that they control female sexuality and reproduction--male chimps will kill an infant chimp if they know it was fathered by another chimp. And male chimps will attack and sometimes kill a female chimp who mates with a male outside the troop.

The interesting thing is, then, why doesn't it work? Because genetic studies show that 50% of hte offspring in any chimp troop is fathered by a chimp outside the troop. Female chimps are risking their lives to go off and mess around with another chimp, and they're not getting caught. There's lots of theories about why that is, but what I'm interested in, is why are female chimps so much more successful in controlling thier own sexuality than we are?

And why is it that among humans alone (or nearly alone) rape is a part of the control of female sexuality? Is it because "ordinary" violence, even carried to an extreme, isn't enough? (Witness the chimps.)

You know--this just came to me now, so it may not be well thought out, but how about:

The threat of stranger rape (even though it's much more rare than the domestic variety) serves to keep women and girls at home "where they belong" and behave so that they will keep the protection of the men (who may very well be the same ones who rape them) they belong to. This preserves male sexual access to females.

There's a twisted kind of logic there, isn't there?

Because rape, as a reproductive measure, isn't very productive. Your chances of attacking a woman when she's ovulating, impregnating her, and then her carrying the fetus to term and deciding to raise it--not good. So from that perspective it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

But if rape is a way to punish women who don't behave (by wearing the right clothes, staying home, not talking to strange men, etc.) then the chances of a female "straying" drastically reduce, thus enhancing men's certainty--in general--of the paternity of the children they're raising. ANd most male control of female reproduction and sexuality centres on ensuring the certainty of paternity.

(Oh, and April, on the "why male control of females and not vice versa" thing--from what I've seen, it's paternity. A woman always knows who her children are. A man can never be certain, *unless* he has at least one female completely under his control, who never has access to any other men.)


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Rebecca West
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posted 24 October 2003 03:08 PM      Profile for Rebecca West     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
The interesting thing is, then, why doesn't it work? Because genetic studies show that 50% of hte offspring in any chimp troop is fathered by a chimp outside the troop. Female chimps are risking their lives to go off and mess around with another chimp, and they're not getting caught. There's lots of theories about why that is, but what I'm interested in, is why are female chimps so much more successful in controlling thier own sexuality than we are?
Chimps do rape (as we define rape, forcible mating), so I suspect that the reason that so much genetic material is from outside the troop is that during raids females are raped. I have a hard time picturing a female wandering off into the jungle to find another troop, going up to a male and saying, "fancy a shag?" I suppose something like that happens, but the raiding makes more sense, especially if a troops goal is spreading its genetic material around by raiding, murdering the males and knocking up the females. Its what humans have been doing to each other for millennia.

From: London , Ontario - homogeneous maximus | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mush
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posted 24 October 2003 03:13 PM      Profile for Mush     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Personally, I think Bonobos compare better to humans .
From: Mrs. Fabro's Tiny Town | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
athena_dreaming
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posted 24 October 2003 04:03 PM      Profile for athena_dreaming   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
But that's it--the female chimps *do* wander off into the jungle and solicit other males. Frequently. It's well documented. They risk their lives to go off and do so.

In fact, I'd have to see some hard proof to believe that rape amongst chimps is so common that 50% of live births are the result of rape. Besides which, when male chimps raid a troop and take over, *they kill all the infants they think are not their own.* So if the situation is as you hypothesize, raiding would be so common you'd never see a live chimp infant.

If you're interested in this, I'd recommend "Mother Nature" by Sarah Blaffer Hrdy,an anthropologist and evolutionary biologist who has quite a background in this area. While the book is actually about the evolutionary biology of motherhood (which I found fascinating in itself) it spent quite a bit of time on this subject as part of the section on female mate choice. She made part of her name studying infanticide and male control of female reproduction among chimps, so I'd say she knows what she's talking about.


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
athena_dreaming
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posted 24 October 2003 04:34 PM      Profile for athena_dreaming   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Here's a reference on female chimpanzee sexual behaviour:

Female reproductive strategies, paternity and community structure in wild West African chimpanzees

Gagneux, P; Boesch, C*; Woodruff, DS

Department of Biology and Center for Molecular Genetics, Zoologisches Institut Universitaet Basel, San Diego

Animal Behaviour [Anim. Behav.]. Vol. 57, no. 1, pp. 19-32. Jan 1999.

Although the variability and complexity of chimpanzee behaviour frustrates generalization, it is widely believed that social evolution in this species occurs in the context of the recognizable social group or community. We used a combination of field observations and noninvasive genotyping to study the genetic structure of a habituated community of 55 wild chimpanzees, Pan troglodytes verus, in the Tai Forest, Cote d'Ivoire. Pedigree relationships in that community show that female mate choice strategies are more variable than previously supposed and that the observed social groups are not the exclusive reproductive units. Genetic evidence based on nuclear microsatellite markers and behavioural observations reveal that females in the Tai forest actively seek mating partners outside their social unit; noncommunity males accounted for half the paternities over 5 years. This female mating strategy increases male gene flow between communities despite male philopatry, and negates the predicted higher relatedness among community males. Kin selection seems unlikely to explain the frequent cooperation and sharing observed among group males in this population. Similarly, inbreeding avoidance is probably not the sole cause of permanent adolescent female dispersal as a combination of extragroup mating and avoidance of incest with home group males would allow females to avoid inbreeding without the hazards associated with immigration into a new community. Extragroup mating as part of chimpanzee females' reproductive strategy may allow them to choose from a wider variety and number of males, without losing the resources and support provided by their male social group partners.

It's the only one I could find with an abstract.

I also read that for each live chimp infant born, a female chimp would mate on average with 13 males. Male control of female chimps is certainly not total.


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Lima Bean
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posted 24 October 2003 05:02 PM      Profile for Lima Bean   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Is anyone else at all uncomfortable with the way this thread has shifted from being about gang rapes in ghettoized immigrant communities to sexual activity among primates in the jungle?
From: s | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 24 October 2003 05:14 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yeah, I really tuned out when that happened. Sort of removing all the historical and social context - which is what is specifically human.

Even more than about the spurious travellers' tales about France. (dianal, I'm not blaming you - but your wen-do instructor needs a kick on for her anglo stereotyping). Police can take advantage of their authority and women's vulnerability anywhere, but it is not something specifically French.

I was a bit disappointed that nobody seemed to pick up on the scope and impact of the Ni Putes Ni Soumises mouvement - those grils aren't just victims, they've been fighting back and tackling some tough issues. There will be a lot of discussions about women and migration issues at the upcoming European Social Forum in Paris and this will definitely be on the agenda.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Lima Bean
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posted 24 October 2003 05:21 PM      Profile for Lima Bean   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't read french very well at all, but I did really appreciate the photos. It's great to see women banding together that way, and the march looks like it was strong and fun. It'll be interesting to watch what happens next with this group.

Are there any movements similar to this in Canada, or is there less of a feeling of the necessity for such a movement, because we're not suffering such a serious epidemic as these Paris girls and women are?


From: s | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
zaphod
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posted 24 October 2003 06:15 PM      Profile for zaphod     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I too am tired of the chimp-talk.

It seems that curing the crimes against females is a humungous task and requires women to protect themselves but even more for a huge multi-cultural shift to make men realize just how horrible the crimes are. The latter task can be accomplished by the same people who maybe formed the values in the first but in any case if they wish to they can cure much of the problem: the clergy in theocracies. If they claimed rape to be a horrible sin it would have a great impact. Unfortunately these people are never going to see or do the right thing. e.g. the Taliban made things infinitely worse for women. Thus I dispare......


From: toronto | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
dianal who asked to be unregistered
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posted 24 October 2003 06:59 PM      Profile for dianal who asked to be unregistered     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

[ 30 October 2003: Message edited by: dianal who asked to be unregistered ]


From: There is a deep lack of respect in the belief that we know what others need... | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 24 October 2003 07:40 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
So does it all come down to male control of female sexuality and reproduction taken to an extreme? Or is there something else going on? Does anyone know?

Human beings have a tremendous capacity to rationalize any sort of behaviour. Visit some of the other threads for evidence.

The reason men across the cultural mosaic hold women responsible for violence against them is because men are men regardless of the cultural upbringing.

Here in Noth America, "she asked for it" or "she wanted it" has been a common defence. I think we recall where raped women were held responsible for their choice of dress or for being out late. I think I even remember a case where a child was accused of being "sexually aggresive" thus mitigating her sexual assault by a male family member.

We all want to blame the victim when we are the victimizer. We see this tendency even in children when a child hurting another responds "(s)he made me."


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sara Mayo
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posted 24 October 2003 08:00 PM      Profile for Sara Mayo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Forgive me for coming late to this thread, but I can't stop myself from defending lagatta's reputation here.

I think the reason more people aren't participating in these threads is that they aren't saying much new. It's kind of same old same old.

It certainly has nothing to do with people like lagatta participating in them. In the other threads that lagatta participates in, she always treats her fellow babblers with respect and her contributions are always appreciated.

dianal, you have to remember what you wrote in your first post

quote:
have to agree with that... if a woman travelling france, reports to the police that she was raped, they will rape her again. Yes we see it as wrong as it is... they don't.

It's not much different for a guy to say on a forum "if a guy comes to see a feminist doctor about erectile dysfunction, she will laugh at him. Yes, we see it as wrong as it is... they don't." Stereotypes are stupid. Let's have arguments about real issues.

If the moderators were watching you would have gotten a severe warning for your statement. lagatta chose to try to show you that what you said was a horribly stereotypical, instead of making a complaint to the moderators. That was her choice. You have a choice as well. You can apologize, or you can as you did in your many post try to weasel your way out of your statement.

quote:
I did not say (I'm getting tired of saying this preface statement btw) that ONLY the french re-rape...I said that in France, many women who have travelled there, and many wen-do instructors stated that have heard this from others, who report being raped, are re-raped.

With all due respect, you did not have any such subteltly in your original post. You did not say "many women", you did not talk of any anectodal evidence, you did not talk about any wen-do intructors.

quote:
I made no mention of 'systemic'..I said it happens.

No you didn't. You said "they will rape her again". Like it or not, "will" is pretty much the definition of systematic.

lagatta was not "disrespectful and self serving", in fact she was surprisingly civil by the standards around here.

[ 24 October 2003: Message edited by: Sara Mayo ]


From: "Highways are monuments to inequality" - Enrique Penalosa | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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Babbler # 2534

posted 24 October 2003 08:04 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Dianal, I have lived in France and I live in a French-speaking place. I have also taken wen-do and know several wen-do instructors, and many, many women who have travelled or lived in France. Exchanges between Qubec and France are very strong.

I have never heard the stories you mention. They certainly could be true. I'll go abroad and say our RCMP is in the habit of sexually abusing young Native girls, why not? That happened too. But anglo racism against francophones is a reality as well, and I fear your wen-do instructor could be guilty of it. Look back at your post. It does not say this has happened at a certain point, but "it happens", as if it was a regular occurrence.

I am certainly not trying to exclude you from having your say on the feminism board or anywhere else - I think you have said and say a lot of valuable and important things.

Heavens forbid I'd ever be defending the police in France or anywhere else. That is like a lot of my friends who refused to vote for Jospin (even friends in the Parti socialiste, I'm not even talking about friends on the far left or in the Greens) and wound up voting for Chirac so as to block Le Pen!


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
dianal who asked to be unregistered
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posted 24 October 2003 10:01 PM      Profile for dianal who asked to be unregistered     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

[ 30 October 2003: Message edited by: dianal who asked to be unregistered ]


From: There is a deep lack of respect in the belief that we know what others need... | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
dianal who asked to be unregistered
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Babbler # 4192

posted 24 October 2003 10:14 PM      Profile for dianal who asked to be unregistered     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

[ 30 October 2003: Message edited by: dianal who asked to be unregistered ]


From: There is a deep lack of respect in the belief that we know what others need... | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
clersal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 370

posted 24 October 2003 10:47 PM      Profile for clersal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What the is fuck goes on in these feminist threads. We are all fighting again.

As an objective observer. I wouldn't dare participate.

The whole thread started out with the link: a very small part,

quote:
The phenomenon of gang rape in France has become banal.

It seems to me dianal's post is backed up by the article. Whether the article is accurate or not is another question.

This is the second time this has happened. Are we in some kind of contest of 'Who is the best feminist, the perfect feminist?'

I am a crone and proud of it. I don't have the wart with the hair sprout but I do have one bloody hair that has ambitions of being a moustache.

My experience as a young lady and my expectations, being married to a macho man(no longer married) were quite different than those today. I AM OUT OF DATE. Am I a bad feminist? Impure? Sheesh


From: Canton Marchand, Qubec | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
clersal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 370

posted 25 October 2003 09:15 PM      Profile for clersal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hey feminists! Are we or aren't we?
From: Canton Marchand, Qubec | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3276

posted 25 October 2003 09:58 PM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by clersal:
Hey feminists! Are we or aren't we?

I don't know. I completely support feminism, but I'm quite certain my wife would say I am no feminist, and I'm not even sure a man CAN be a real feminist?


From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
April Follies
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4098

posted 25 October 2003 10:39 PM      Profile for April Follies   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Eeeeeeeeek! Don't open that Pandora's box, Wilfred! We already went there on this thread and it just got ugly. (Tangent: Pandora's box is an incredibly sexist myth, but it's a convenient reference here.)

In an effort to go back to the constructive commentary - lagatta's evidence of the young women mobilizing is indeed heartening. It shows an awareness on their part that they don't have to give up in the face of this community-indifference to their basic human rights. Is there a way that we can helpfully support their efforts? If they succeed in making good progress, perhaps they could provide a model to other women 'round the world who have similar troubles. I can think of some areas in the U.S. which could use a movement like that!

An additional issue that occurs to me, reading some of the earlier posts on this thread: does the haste to assign blame to some group (e.g., "it's all those immigrants") actually undercut the struggle of these women? Is it not another form of community indifference, by saying "well, what do you expect from ____?" I'm thinking that perhaps some people try to hijack the problem for an agenda that will not be of help to the young women themselves. Of course, I've just been reading accounts of the BBC expose on institutionalized anti-immigrant racism in the British police forces, so, well, that's where my brain's at.

[ 25 October 2003: Message edited by: April Follies ]


From: Help, I'm stuck in the USA | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
clersal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 370

posted 25 October 2003 10:51 PM      Profile for clersal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You are probably right. I couldn't be a masculist either.

What bothers me, as I said is that we seem to be in competition for who is the best feminist.
We all have different stories and come from different environments.
I know men my age who do share stuff around the house. That was my main complaint a long time ago.
Also equal pay for equal work. I didn't see that either.
Things have changed today and there are different
expectations today that I don't see the importance.THAT IS NOT SAYING THAT THEY ARE NOT IMPORTANT. I don't get upset by sexist remarks. I hear a lot. But then I have reached the crone stage.


From: Canton Marchand, Qubec | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
dianal who asked to be unregistered
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posted 26 October 2003 01:06 AM      Profile for dianal who asked to be unregistered     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

[ 30 October 2003: Message edited by: dianal who asked to be unregistered ]


From: There is a deep lack of respect in the belief that we know what others need... | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
dianal who asked to be unregistered
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Babbler # 4192

posted 26 October 2003 01:20 AM      Profile for dianal who asked to be unregistered     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

[ 30 October 2003: Message edited by: dianal who asked to be unregistered ]


From: There is a deep lack of respect in the belief that we know what others need... | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
April Follies
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Babbler # 4098

posted 26 October 2003 02:38 AM      Profile for April Follies   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oh, for heaven's sake.

Let me say this quite clearly: I was not, in fact, even thinking of dianal's post when I posted about 'constructive commentary'. I was thinking about the request made by clersal that we get away from the arguing. So, I thought I'd do just that.

I realize that I've said things in another thread that offend dianal; however, I have been making every effort to avoid a re-offense. Thus, I am particularly exasperated at being accused of doing exactly what I've bent over backwards to avoid. For the sake of clarity:

* I do not think I'm a 'better feminist' than anyone; in fact, I don't believe there really is such a thing. I may agree or disagree with views presented, or the way they're presented, as is my right. That's all.

* I do not intend to attempt to one-up dianal, or anyone else. Because of the past dispute, I've actually been avoiding responding to her posts, because anything I say seems to upset her. I'm hardly going to leave a thread in which I was already participating, however. I also am not going to change a style of address which has not troubled 99% of Babble posters previously, for the sake of one poster who takes everything I say as offensive.

* If someone dislikes the attitudes of most of the people on a particular forum, I cannot see how it will further anyone's health and happiness for them to continuing to lambast those persons on their own forum. Having myself gone this route once, I can personally testify that it's not at all effective and causes only needless ulcers.

* And finally, henceforward I intend to pursue a policy of completely ignoring every post from dianal, so that I cannot possibly be accused of referring to her in a slighting fashion. I shall not be referring to her at all, in any way, shape, or form. Since our personalities and approaches seem to be so different that we set one another off without ever intending to, that's the only route I can see to stop a merry-go-round of argumentation.

* I shall now take my own advice, proffered to others in another thread, and cease to respond to what seems to me to be constant - if, I judge, unintentional - baiting.


From: Help, I'm stuck in the USA | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 26 October 2003 07:39 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
April, if I were you, I'd quit explaining myself to everyone every time dianal perceives some kind of slight. You have gone way far out of your way to accommodate every little hissy fit over every little thing you write. At some point, you just have to ignore it and move on. Don't worry about explaining - I think most of us understand perfectly.

[ 26 October 2003: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
April Follies
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4098

posted 26 October 2003 09:37 AM      Profile for April Follies   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Michelle: (cue outraged tone) Are you calling me hyper defensive???

*pause* *consider* Oh, awright, guilty as charged. I've never been good at knowing when to quit - or at least when not to grandstand about quitting. Where's my Huff, so I can flounce off in it? Anyhow, I shall heed your excellent advice.


From: Help, I'm stuck in the USA | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 26 October 2003 09:50 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Heh. My post was meant more as a show of support than criticism, April.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
clersal
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Babbler # 370

posted 26 October 2003 09:53 AM      Profile for clersal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
In an effort to go back to the constructive commentary - lagatta's evidence of the young women mobilizing is indeed heartening.

We better start on Babble first as we are not doing very well.

From: Canton Marchand, Qubec | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
windymustang
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4509

posted 26 October 2003 09:57 AM      Profile for windymustang     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I guess you're right, April Follies. I too should quit reacting to Dianal's anger and baiting. But, it sure would be nice to get a few licks in.

I'm not usually a person who angers easily or becomes aggressive, but her comment about me, "you must be a male" as well as other disparaging remarks makes me want to put on the gloves and step into the ring. I will think some more about not responding to her. I have left previous threads because of what she was saying, but it would be better to ignore her.

[ 26 October 2003: Message edited by: windymustang ]


From: from the locker of Mad Mary Flint | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
April Follies
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4098

posted 26 October 2003 05:10 PM      Profile for April Follies   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Been reading through the articles lagatta linked. They were kind enough to put it in very simple French that even I can comprehend, for which I thank them. (My French is, uh, rusty, yeah, that's it, rusty...)

Anyhow, I noticed that they now have a website specifically dedicated to the movement (a very recent development) so I thought I'd provide a link for those interested: www.niputesnisoumises.com.

Although I think the U.S. National Organization for Women (www.now.org) does good work in their "stop violence against women" campaigns, I think they're hampered by focusing so heavily on lobbying Congress. Call me a cynic, but I think Congress is to a large part unredeemable in these areas - they have far-right constituencies that are just as loud and send more money. I think concentrated organizational efforts toward the largely disenfranchised working-class community might propell more results, both on the level of popular awareness and, as a result, in the pressuring of legislatures to act.


From: Help, I'm stuck in the USA | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
April Follies
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4098

posted 29 October 2003 07:02 PM      Profile for April Follies   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A little help here for the linguistically challenged?

I mentioned the "www.niputesnisoumises.com" site on my blog, and the fact they were soliciting a "symbolic euro" donation. Happily, a couple of people contacted me saying they'd like to donate! Unhappily, um, they said that from the site they weren't quite sure how to go about it.

Now, because I'm not as familiar with either the group or the language, I'm hoping that lagatta or someone who knows more will be able to help on this point. Thanks in advance!


From: Help, I'm stuck in the USA | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534

posted 29 October 2003 07:30 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
April, send me a private message and I'll be glad to help you if it isn't too long.

Just mailing them a $ bill - you do still have those in the US? - would be approximately equal to a Euro, and probably much easier than a money transfer for such a teensy amount.

They will mostly appreciate the fact that their movement is becoming known internationally. Indeed it is the kind of problem many young women in hard-pressed ethnic minority communities experience in many countries.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged

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