Overall I think it did a good job of portraying Henry Morgenthaller as a complex individual who is not, by nature a "political actor" though he necessarily became one. His passion for attractive younger women, for example, hardly fits the politically correct mold some might be more comfortable with.

[email protected]

aaaaahhh, that feels better.

We should find out from CTV whether that was the case -- and would they tell us which usual suspects declined to buy time from them? Probably not -- but it's worth a shot.

[ 06 January 2005: Message edited by: Bobolink ]

I can remember being quite anti-abortion in university until a friend of mine became pregnant. As it was, she elected to keep and raise the child rather than be subjected to a back-alley abortion which as all that was available in the late 1960's. But her pregnancy did force me to re-evaluate and then change my mind on abortions.

[ 09 January 2005: Message edited by: Bobolink ]

[ 09 January 2005: Message edited by: Bobolink ]

One became a srong supporter of legal abortions, the other became Evangelical and absolutely anti-abortion.

The woman who became Evangelical later adopted 2 children, while the other dedicated herself to community causes and remained childless.

Both women were scarred by their experiences and neither wanted othr girls and women to have to go through what they did. Though they both approached abortion from different perspectives.

From these 2 women's experiences, and how events played out in their lives, I learned that, it is all about choice, and it is the woman's choice nobody else's. And nobody else has a right to even know a choice was made unless the woman choosing decides to share.

Morgentaler, in my opinion, gave women the way to understand they have a right to choice, and created the climate of understanding that a woman's choice is what is best for them at that time. And that society at large has nothing to do with their choice, ever.

[ 09 January 2005: Message edited by: Hailey ]

Abortion in Canada: History, Law, Access

By Joyce Arthur, published on the Pro Choice Action Network's site. There are sections (a bit dated, but still generally applicable) on the patchwork of funding and access provincially, as well as access within provinces. Alberta is one of the best, PEI is obviously the worst.

Something else to chew on:

No Choice: Canadian Women Tell Their Stories of Illegal Abortion, available online from the Childbirth by Choice Trust.

quote:

---

Originally posted by remind:
I have known 2 women who had back alley abortions when in their teens, both of whom were never able to conceive again.

One became a srong supporter of legal abortions, the other became Evangelical and absolutely anti-abortion.

Both women were scarred by their experiences and neither wanted othr girls and women to have to go through what they did.

---

This is an interesting take from yet another point of view, that of young women who didn't or couldn't get an abortion in the pre-Morganthaler days, who bore their babies and then gave them up for adoption.

Petrie, who is about my age, lived this experience herself and has been most brave and generous in talking about it, as were the many women who agreed to interviews with her.

To me, what happened to these women, the shame and long-term heartbreak that was imposed upon them, is almost as horrible a consequence of criminalizing abortion (and demonizing pre-marital sex) as were the backstreet abortions.

I know several women who had competent abortions in those years, and I also know two who bore their children and then gave them up, one of whom never made contact again with her child, one who is in touch with an adult child but most uncomfortable contact.

Which of course it hasn't. Her adopted daughter, and son are both alcoholics and into drugs--the son more so-- and are pretty much as dysfunctional as you can get without living on the street. Her daughter has had an abortion, which at 32 she kept a secret from her mother. However, she made the choice to have an abortion as she does not agree with adoption, her life with her adopted mother turned her off of it.

The whole situation is still pretty bad. The fundamentalist church the mother belongs to pretty much keeps her in a state of negativity and control because of her choice of 45 + years ago.

quote:

---

Originally posted by RealityBites:
I don't know if you can answer this on behalf of someone else, but how did the one who became anti-abortion think she was going to help others to avoid back-alley abortions by making therepeutic abortions illegal??

---

quote:

---

Pretty good patriarchal system: demonize all single women either pregnant or with children and wind up with one group exploiting the other.

---

Spot on, fern hill. I remember a few of those young women in neighbours' homes in the mid-fifties, although I don't think I knew one later than that.

Sorry.

[ 10 January 2005: Message edited by: HeywoodFloyd ]

If you have something nasty to say about feminism then you have a problem.

No, I was responding to a post from Skdadl. However, it has been made amply clear in the past that this forum is for women only.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hailey:
I met Mr. Morgentaler as well in 1991 I think it was when he was in Edmonton. I was a child at the time and my mother went the night that he spoke.

---

beibhnn, at Audra's request I moved all my posts about "Choice" over to the Media Forum. Unfortunately, that thread was destroyed by a flame war that was of interest only to the parties concerned. Can we try to avoid that here?

[ 10 January 2005: Message edited by: Bobolink ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hailey:
I met Mr. Morgentaler as well in 1991 I think it was when he was in Edmonton. I was a child at the time and my mother went the night that he spoke.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was there too. I can't help but wonder based on some of your previous posts: were you one of the people inside cheering or one of the people outside jeering?

---

[ 22 January 2005: Message edited by: Hailey ]

[ 22 January 2005: Message edited by: Mandos ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by audra trower williams:
If you watch the seventh piece here

---

Hey, the reporter in that clip identified herself as "Vicki Russell". It looked and sounded like the same Vicki Russell who is now an immigration lawyer. Does anyone know if it's the same person?

quote:

---

I'm guessing that she doesn't want to get into that fight too.

---

And I was a bit stuck when asked - wasn't sure how to answer and still be compliant.

You did help me make the hilarious decision to refer to "Dr. Phil" from now on as "Mr. Phil". That's some comedy gold!

[ 22 January 2005: Message edited by: audra trower williams ]

Forgive any errors: quoting from memory:

quote:

---

The meaning of this degree is that the candidate has been examined for the last time in his life, and pronounced completely full.

After this, no new knowledge may be imparted to him.

---

However, I thought this thread was about Dr. Henry Morgentaler.

[ 23 January 2005: Message edited by: Bobolink ]

quote:

---

it was bluntly pointed out to me that I didn't have any business butting my nose into a woman's very real problems that can crop up during a pregnancy.

---

Maybe then there would be less need for abortions, and when there is, more men would support women in their choices, whatever they are.

quote:

---

So do women have any more business than men butting into other women's pregnancy issues?

---

No choice. Keep resorting to back-alley sharia arbitration.

[ 23 January 2005: Message edited by: skdadl ]

This belief in the Charter that is too often professed on Babble (kind of "the religion of the day") is based on the false assumption that one has only to recite the relevant section of the Charter to a government (since the Charter applies only to governments) as one recites "Our Father" and Pouf!, a decision falls from the sky.

I am afraid it does not work that way. To many, many Canadians the Charter is a mirage, an illusion. Especially to women. (Please have a look at the link below). It costs money, most often lots of moneys, skdadl, to assert one's Charter rights. And let us not forget that we are facing governments endowed with endless resources.

http://www.nawl.ca/affil/MAWLpt1.htm

Funding is also an issue, for while a procedure done in hospital is fully funded provincially, women who only have access to a clinic may find the procedure only parially funded, or not funded at all. It varies from province to province.

As a result, women will attempt to self-abort, or will solicit the assistance of another, unlicensed person, in terminating a pregnancy. Such unlicensed procedures are illegal, dangerous and sometimes fatal.

Women do not have choice until every woman has access to free reproductive health services.

Edited to add: some abortion services have such a long waiting list, that women have to wait several weeks for the procedure. Needless to say, the earlier a pregnancy can be terminated, the fewer complications.

[ 24 January 2005: Message edited by: Rebecca West ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by audra trower williams:
I don't understand the question, skdadl. Are you asking if illegal abortions still happen in Canada?

---

Sorry, audra: just saw this.

No, I wasn't asking about illegal abortions, although I'm glad that your question gave RW a chance to write such an articulate and moving reply.

I was responding to the sly parallel that lacabombi was drawing between back-street abortions and "back-street sharia." He knew that that would annoy me, and it did.

lacabombi: The Charter is no flavour-of-the-month to me. I am a student of the C17-C18, of the roots of modern thinking about democracy, and I will go to the wall for those ideals, however close to them any society I live in has got, however far from them it has fallen.

Yes, it is important -- as RW so vividly illustrates in her post above -- for us to know how partial our advance towards principle still is.

On CNN they just had Bush's voice on addressing the people from the March of Life. His comments were extremely infammitory and completely gave the wrong impression about the abortion change laws in the USA, unless they are more far reaching than has been stated.

Paraphrased only:

He told them that now those who killed babies in mothers who were pregnant would be charged with killing a life. He said also, that the ban on partial birth abortions was only part of the battle, and that those who harmed the unborn would be stopped. And so much more.

quote:

---

I believe illegal abortions do still occur in Canada, not because abortion is illegal anywhere, but because many women have great difficulty in accessing the services of a licensed clinic or physician who is willing to perform abortions, or even refer women to one who will.

---

Most yellow pages if you open them up to "birth control" or "abortion" you will see a reference to the closest clinic that offer trained personnel to do abortions. That would give women who are in favour of abortion and seeking one that venue to find a service provider.

To my knowledge, here is not an ethical requirement that a physician refer for an abortion. Abortions can also be arranged through self-referral it does not require the referral of a treating physician. I would imagine that most persons who are in favor of abortion attend a pro-choice physician.

quote:

---

Only a small percentage of Canadian hospitals will perform abortions.

---

It's my understanding that abortion rights activists have been promoting the idea of abortions being performed in free standing private clinics and not hospitals.

quote:

---

As a result, women will attempt to self-abort, or will solicit the assistance of another, unlicensed person, in terminating a pregnancy. Such unlicensed procedures are illegal, dangerous and sometimes fatal.

---

There will be mothers that will attempt to self-abort by over exercising, by taking intrusive measures, by ingesting herbs and so forth. That will occur although that is a minority response. It is certainly disconcerting.

And this doesn't occur "as a result" of the milieu that surrounds abortion access it begins before that with the creation of an untimely pregnancy and the need to address those issues. Abortion isn't a solution to all of that even if you agree with it being legal. We need to address how we arrive at this situation in the first place.

quote:

---

Women do not have choice until every woman has access to free reproductive health services.

---

I don't know what you mean by that.

quote:

---

Also, I know of a woman who had an illegal abortion a block away from my old apt, because her doctor had told her abortions are illegal

---

I am surprised that anyone could be that poorly informed. I would think that anyone reading a newspaper or just going through the motions of every day life would know otherwise.

May I ask did she find an untrained person to assist or did she self-abort?

[ 24 January 2005: Message edited by: Hailey ]

[ 24 January 2005: Message edited by: Hailey ]

quote:

---

Though this post is not on the movie Choice,I am reluctant to start a new thread on the topic of abortion.On CNN they just had Bush's voice on addressing the people from the March of Life. His comments were extremely infammitory and completely gave the wrong impression about the abortion change laws in the USA, unless they are more far reaching than has been stated.
Paraphrased only:
He told them that now those who killed babies in mothers who were pregnant would be charged with killing a life. He said also, that the ban on partial birth abortions was only part of the battle, and that those who harmed the unborn would be stopped. And so much more.

I grew cold, and feel sick, that he would so promote the hate notion against choice in such an ugly way. And I feel that this will make things so much worse for women.

---

I did not have an opportunity to hear President Bush address the crowd of activists. He has spoken, I believe, every year since he has been President and his speech can be found online so I look forward to the opportunity to study it in addition to any bits and pieces that are edited for television.

May I ask what you mean by "wrong impression"? If you mean that their desire to address abortion laws beyond partial birth abortion I don't think that's hidden. Addressing partial birth abortion is the first of a series of actions that they support. They have been marching against abortion since the procedure even began so, naturally, their opposition to abortion extends beyond this one procedure.

Although I appreciate that you found his words bold and inflammatory I hope that people who agree and disagree with him on this issue can at least welcome clarity. If he was as clear as you suggest then persons cannot suggest that they didn't know what his views and convictions were on this matter. His speeches are always posted online after and are always reflected on television. When people are casting their vote they know they are voting for a person with clear views on this subject - it's not danced around. It's always positive to know where someone stands even if you disagree.

I look forward to seeing or hearing his speech verbatim.

[ 24 January 2005: Message edited by: Hailey ]

quote:

---

Hailey, the woman was pretty marginalized. I think there were addiction issues there.
I think the "open the yellow pages and there you go" is a bit idealistic. Women in PEI can't get an abortion, or in Cape Breton. Or probably in lots of places I don't know of.

---

That's very sad that she had those things to deal with. I wouldn't wish those challenges on someone.

I wasn't meaning to suggest that one will find a facility that is around the corner. Persons may have to travel to other areas but it will reference, for the most part, where the closest place is.

I certainly didn't mean to suggest that finding a listing in a yellow page advertising book translates into the completion of a selected procedure - there would be steps beyond that. I was meaning that the information that abortion is performed is as quick as a tour of the yellow pages.

Hailey, you make it really hard to discuss these things in an open and painfully honest way, because you are so far right and so ignorant of the lives of people around you that other posters may be afraid of saying something that may be construed as agreeing with you. (Much like Bush actually)

Having said that, I am going to risk a comment. Of course I feel that abortion should be legal and freely available, and women should be empowered to make the decision that is best for them. However, I hope we don't lose sight of the other extreme- that there are surely a minority of women who perhaps use abortion as another form of contraception.

quote:

---

I know I'm going out on a limb here, but should we be saying that abortion should be freely available, no matter what?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Raos:

Yes. The same way a driver in a car accident is STILL elligible for medical services even if they weren't taking EVERY precaution to protect themself, like wearing their seat belt, should they be responsible for their own situation, and left out on the pavement?

---

Compulsary sterilization after a certain number of abortions?

Forced delivery -- perhaps put her in jail until she delivers?

quote:

---

Walker :
Hailey, you make it really hard to discuss these things in an open and painfully honest way, because you are so far right and so ignorant of the lives of people around you that other posters may be afraid of saying something that may be construed as agreeing with you. (Much like Bush actually)

---

I disagree. Hailey is one of the most insighful Babblers. Her arguments are rational, not based on impulse, identity-politics, ethno-centricity, phallocracy nor clitocracy.

You say, she is "far right", but actually one find it hard to situate her in the political spectrum precisely because her views are balanced, for dictated by logic, not dogma.

quote:

---

I'm not going with that analogy. That's not what I'm saying, and you're reading things in my post that aren't there. Stretch yourself- can't you see that a situation exists whereby (I repeat) a tiny minority of women are being reckless with their health, and using abortion as little more than contraception?

---

No, I think its an apt analogy. Obvious, somebody in an accident didn't want to be in that accident, and obviously anybody getting an abortion doesn't want to be pregnant. In both cases, the situation MAY be due to a lack of forsight and/or poor judgement. In both cases, while the situation could be their own fault, see no reason why they should be abandoned to their own means because they had a hand in creating that situation.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Raos:

No, I think its an apt analogy. Obvious, somebody in an accident didn't want to be in that accident, and obviously anybody getting an abortion doesn't want to be pregnant. In both cases, the situation MAY be due to a lack of forsight and/or poor judgement. In both cases, while the situation could be their own fault, see no reason why they should be abandoned to their own means because they had a hand in creating that situation.

---

Just let me clarify for everyone else reading here, I never said women seeking abortions should be "...abandoned to their own means...".

Again I say, I am not against abortion, I do not have an ultra-conservative stance, I am an atheist, and I have every sympathy for women who are daily forced to make the heartbreaking decision to seek an abortion. By the same token, I don't wish to ignore the flipside, and I am not willing to say (quote Audra) "If one abortion is okay, so are 15."

I can't cross that line.

The funny thing is, this is not something that keeps me awake at night. It has more to do with a general morality, a trend that I see in society.

quote:

---

Sadly, I can see that I wasted my time distancing myself from the ultra-conservative arguments against abortion. You and others are vey happy to ignore that and lump all opinions that may differ even slightly from your own into the same box.

---

No, I think you may just have gotten a little carried away with the "devil's advocate" argument style. The "bad apple" tactic is what I like to call it when people trot out the worst case scenario, the abuser of the system or whatever to try and suggest that maybe a point of view, carefully thought out though it may appear to be, just might need some tweaking.

I'm sorry but my opinion that we have no business inside another person's body can't be tweaked. It's not my body, or my choice, and I can't use people I disapprove of as a weapon against the rest of us. Not for a fun debate, or for argument sake because someone thinks we might not have thought of all the angles.

The stories of women using abortion are just that stories, I'd almost call them as an urban legend. Getting an abortion just isn't that easy nor is it fun, it's a medical procedure not a tooth cleaning. Perhaps people already marginalized have to resort to this because it's likely they have limited access to birth control in the first place or an ability to manage taking it. Living on the street with a mental illness and turning tricks to stay alive isn't a person in a situation that makes managing birth control possible. So maybe some of these women have used it as a form of birth control, maybe, but it's a symptom of a greater problem. fix that problem and it's likely the need to use abortions in this manner would cease to exisit.

And if it became a cool, trendy thing to do for a small segment of the population, to use abortion as birth control, well, that would suck, but I'd just have to deal with, I'd discourage it but I certainly would want to start putting restrictions on whose deserving of an abortion.

quote:

---

Originally posted by RealityBites:
What would you suggest, Walker?

Compulsory sterilization after a certain number of abortions?
Forced delivery -- perhaps put her in jail until she delivers?
What solution do you have that's not worse than the problem?

---

quote:

---

RB, I'm really disappointed. I wouldn't treat such an issue so flippantly. You have responded to several of my posts; I would have hoped you would know me by now?

---

Try not to make this thread about you okay? After all you haven't even been babbling for a month.

quote:

---

Hailey, you make it really hard to discuss these things in an open and painfully honest way, because you are so far right and so ignorant of the lives of people around you that other posters may be afraid of saying something that may be construed as agreeing with you. (Much like Bush actually)

---

I'm actually not right-winged. I have very socialist views on many issues and I'm a social liberal on some issues as well.

I am not ignorant of the lives of people around me. You don't know me and have no right to say that.

quote:

---

Of course I feel that abortion should be legal and freely available, and women should be empowered to make the decision that is best for them. However, I hope we don't lose sight of the other extreme- that there are surely a minority of women who perhaps use abortion as another form of contraception.

---

If, infact, the unborn child is a sub-human expendable that is disposable at the will of the mother and the only thing that abortion should be about is a woman's right to end a pregnancy anytime anyplace then it really shouldn't matter if she was one or one hundred. If we care that the woman is using abortion for birth control or having multiple abortions we are conveying a sense of recognition that there is a child within.

quote:

---

Honestly? I don't care if they are. If one abortion is okay, so are 15.

---

Exactly. This is the only morally consistent position for persons who are in favour of abortion rights.

quote:

---

What would you suggest, Walker?
Compulsary sterilization after a certain number of abortions?

Forced delivery -- perhaps put her in jail until she delivers?

What solution do you have that's not worse than the problem?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scout:

No, I think you may just have gotten a little carried away with the "devil's advocate" argument style. The "bad apple" tactic is what I like to call it when people trot out the worst case scenario, the abuser of the system or whatever to try and suggest that maybe a point of view, carefully thought out though it may appear to be, just might need some tweaking.

I'm sorry but my opinion that we have no business inside another person's body can't be tweaked. It's not my body, or my choice, and I can't use people I disapprove of as a weapon against the rest of us. Not for a fun debate, or for argument sake because someone thinks we might not have thought of all the angles.

The stories of women using abortion are just that stories, I'd almost call them as an urban legend. Getting an abortion just isn't that easy nor is it fun, it's a medical procedure not a tooth cleaning. Perhaps people already marginalized have to resort to this because it's likely they have limited access to birth control in the first place or an ability to manage taking it. Living on the street with a mental illness and turning tricks to stay alive isn't a person in a situation that makes managing birth control possible. So maybe some of these women have used it as a form of birth control, maybe, but it's a symptom of a greater problem. fix that problem and it's likely the need to use abortions in this manner would cease to exisit.

And if it became a cool, trendy thing to do for a small segment of the population, to use abortion as birth control, well, that would suck, but I'd just have to deal with, I'd discourage it but I certainly would want to start putting restrictions on whose deserving of an abortion.

Freedom and human rights tend to come at a price. For free speech we have the Zundels of the world, sometimes to protect the innocent the guilty get off and some people are going to have abortions for reasons we disapprove of. I'd rather pay the price than lose the freedoms, because what would life be like then?

---

Thank you for paying me the courtesy of at least thinking about this.

quote:

---

This is the only morally consistent position for persons who are in favour of abortion rights.

---

quote:

---

Thank you for paying me the courtesy of at least thinking about this.

---

See, now that's what's getting people hot under the collar! your tone, it's condscending. I didn't just think about this for you, I thought about it a long time ago! This is the feminsim forum, we have all thought about it, long before you came along, we don't need to rehash what most of us came to terms with a long time ago because you think we need to.

quote:

---

I certainly don't think this is a fun debate to have, and I didn't post for the sake of provoking people. I DO think it's worth discussing all the angles (NOT for the purpose of banning abortions), because in a 'room' full of nodding heads it's easy to think that everyone agrees with you and everyone in a given situation is there for exactly the same reason.

---

And you think MY tone is condescending? Sorry to disappoint you, but the font of all wisdom is not Babble, and if you think you've done all the thinking there is to do regarding abortion, what are you wasting your time here for.

quote:

---

And you think MY tone is condescending? Sorry to disappoint you, but the font of all wisdom is not Babble, and if you think you've done all the thinking there is to do regarding abortion, what are you wasting your time here for.

---

Hey, I tried being cool, you condscended, what did you expect to get back? Did I say babble was the end all be all, or did I suggest we had covered some ground here in the years babble has been around, how you made the leap to the rest of what your yammering about I have no idea.

quote:

---

I mean really, I think you're getting carried away with the weight of your knowledge. I like to take a good dose of humility when I get up in the morning. It's just too arrogant to think you've done it all, seen it all, heard it all. If that was all there was to it, well, I've got 9 years on you Scout.

---

I think it's you who is carried away by the wieght of his ego. I don't think I have done it all, nor do most of the feminists here, but we have done much of the "thinking" you are suggesting we do. There are umpteen threads here to prove it. What's arrogant is trotting in here and suggesting you know what we should be talking about and assuming we haven't because we didn't drop to our knees and thank you for enlightening us.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hailey:
http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2005/jan/050124a.html

This is the full text of the speech that remind referenced earlier.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Walker:
"...This is the feminsim forum, we have all thought about it, long before you came along, we don't need to rehash what most of us came to terms with a long time ago because you think we need to..."

And you think MY tone is condescending? Sorry to disappoint you, but the font of all wisdom is not Babble, and if you think you've done all the thinking there is to do regarding abortion, what are you wasting your time here for.

I mean really, I think you're getting carried away with the weight of your knowledge. I like to take a good dose of humility when I get up in the morning. It's just too arrogant to think you've done it all, seen it all, heard it all. If that was all there was to it, well, I've got 9 years on you Scout.

---

You know, none of us have seen, done or known it all. One of the reasons I often don't post on this issue. I think the number of women who use abortion instead of contraception is negligible, and I wouldn't deny them the procedure. What kind of parents would they be?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scout:
I have been here years and RB still can't keep me straight.

---

quote:

---

Anyway, terminating a pregnancy is an experience that you really can't KNOW anything about, no matter how much you read or talk or think about it, until you find yourself there

---

quote:

---

Don't take it personally. I couldn't keep any woman straight if I'm all that's standing between her and lesbianism.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Walker:

RB, I'm really disappointed. I wouldn't treat such an issue so flippantly. You have responded to several of my posts; I would have hoped you would know me by now?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scout:

I agree, but I don't know that many female babblers will offer up their stories to be honest. So I like to give each woman the benefit of the doubt I guess, as it's possible a number of us have had scares, abortions, miscarriages or children. So I assume a level of humility in all feminists women who post here because.

---

What I think it's fair to assume is that feminist woman have thought about the issue, at some point and come to a conclusion for themself and it would be unfair to assume that they haven't. I think it's pretty arrogant to think that other feminists haven't been thinking and then perhaps relate to them as if they are "new", not as equals from the get go.

quote:

---

Honestly, Hailey, I would like to hear your take on why it is so difficult to find a hospital that is willing/able to perform the most common medical procedure. What if an entire province didn't do tonsilectomies? Like, seriously

---

I'm sorry I wasn't ignoring you I thought it was rhetorical.

Why? Probably a few reasons.

1) Presently if a hospital is a "catholic" hospital they don't perform the procedure
2) Some physicians that are speciaists and could perform the procedure do not as a matter of conscience.
3) Some physicians that are specialists, that would perform the procedure, and are not against abortion choose not to include that in the practice because of the potential to lose patients who are prolife and because they feel it could negatively impact their reputation.
4)Provinces such as PEI probably don't do a range of medical procedures and persons are forced to rely on out of province services. Given the close proximity to other provinces and the frequent need most people in PEI have to commute to other areas it hasn't been a huge lobbying issue.
5) Persons against abortion have effectively lobbied provincial politicians, approached hospitals that are known providers, and discourage patronizing physicians who perform abortions.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hailey:
Anyway, my point is that physicians often don't want to do them even if it fits with their own philosophy because of the potential impact on practice.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scout:
Can you really have difficulty with the assumption that it is probable that many feminist woman have dealt with this issue in one manner or another and thought about it? It's pretty wide open to possibilty. Wouldn't it be more troublesome to assume the opposite until proven otherwise? That doesn't seem humble at all. I can't know another woman experience but it doens't mean I can assume she hasn't had any. Our shared experiences are some of what the feminist movement bases itself on isn't it?

What I think it's fair to assume is that feminist woman have thought about the issue, at some point and come to a conclusion for themself and it would be unfair to assume that they haven't. I think it's pretty arrogant to think that other feminists haven't been thinking and then perhaps relate to them as if they are "new", not as equals from the get go.

If that all makes any sense at all.

---

Are we saying similar things or are we on a different page? I think we both agree that women should have choice. We both agree that abortion isn't used as a primary form of birth control and that as an argument or discussion for being pro-choice it's a non-issue in our support for choice. But that we all have indivual feelings about the act of abortion itself and how different women use or abuse it. We feel comfortable discussing let's say the use of abortion for selection of gender, but it doesn't change our primary position to discuss the practical application.

quote:

---

Presently, my physician shares office space with a doctor that provides abortion. That just recently came to my attention. I declined an exam (my regular physician was delivering a baby) and explained why. I will make sure that other women I know who are like-minded and having babies have that information so they can steer themselves away from that doctor's services. It was a difficult conversation. Anyway, my point is that physicians often don't want to do them even if it fits with their own philosophy because of the potential impact on practice.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bacchus:
Before I think about castigating PEI, are there other common medical proceedures that people regularly have to go to another province for? MRIs? Catscans? hernia, knee replacement? chemo? aids treatment?

---

It's the MOST COMMON MEDICAL PROCEDURE. Gah.

Otherwise they could claim that they dont have the resources, takes too much staff money whatever and that they dont do other common things like hernias, knee, hips etc.

From the Pro-Choice Action Network:

quote:

---

PEI refuses to provide any abortion services whatsoever, not even in hospitals. PEI will fund abortions for women who travel to another province, but most hospitals in the Maritimes won't do abortions on out-of-province women, forcing PEI women to travel to Ontario or Quebec, or pay for a clinic abortion in New Brunswick. In addition, many provincial governments, including Manitoba, Nova Scotia, and New Brunswick, fought tooth and nail to keep abortion clinics out of their province. They failed, but there are still no clinics at all in Saskatchewan, PEI, or the territories.

---

[ 25 January 2005: Message edited by: Sharon ]

Having had the misfortune, years ago, of being personally involved in one of the agonizing discussions referenced above, about whether to have an abortion, I wouldn't wish it on anyone. It was wrenching and painful for me, and much worse for my partner of the time. All women should (and hopefully do) have absolute control over their bodies, but abortion is not fun nor desirable, and must be a last resort.

We really need to prevent as many unwanted pregnancies as we can through other means. Anyone who considers themselves 'anti-abortion', but does not support and actively campaign for thorough, honest and mandatory sex-education classes in school is courting disaster. Contraceptions should be available to everyone who wants it, free if possible.