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Topic: These parents have bad habits
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skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478
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posted 20 June 2005 10:12 AM
Not Minding: You are buying skinless chicken breasts?!? I am horrified! Ecologically unsound! See how it feels to be one-upped in the virtue stakes all the time? It feels like nagging, as lagatta says, and no one likes it. Even if Not Minding's parents were doing much more dangerous things with their health -- addictions come to mind -- I would be very reluctant to intervene. But some of this strikes me as petty to begin with: I don't like much white bread either, but who doesn't enjoy a three-cheese sauce occasionally? Constant stress, from whipping ourselves over the small stuff or being whipped by others, is bad for our health too. I'm almost as old as Not Minding's parents and I do all sorts of things that are less than healthy. Sometimes I think about them, and sometimes I even talk about my problems with one or two other people I trust. But the people I am willing to talk to are definitely not naggers or narks or fussers. They listen; they hang back; they might talk about themselves ("share"), but they don't impose. That gives me a chance to clarify my own thoughts and to find my own solutions. And it means that I don't feel like running away from them, which is definitely my immediate reaction to fussers. We're not all going to be as lucky as auntie's mum in terms of the time we've got, but it's the quality that counts, and if Not Minding's parents are enjoying themselves now, then who's to mess with their minds? It sounds as though Not Minding really cares about her parents, which is great. Maybe she could reflect on that and why, think of the things they've done that make her grateful for the life she now has. And maybe she could talk to them a bit more some time about those.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001
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lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534
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posted 20 June 2005 10:37 AM
My mum, who is almost as old as Auntie's (92) has nagged and criticised me mercilessly from as far back as I can remember. Often about contradictory things - - Saving enough money? - Have you bought any new clothes? so that is one of the reasons I feel so strongly about this. The other is simply a belief in personal autonomy. I'm sure as hell not going to tell a friend who smokes to stop - she isn't ignorant and knows it is unhealthy. I don't think nagging is done out of love, though the nagger may indeed love the naggee. It is a control issue, trying to tell others what to do with their lives and what to put in and on their bodies. There are ways of helping someone who really wants to make a change, in health or other matters... Not sabotaging their diet or putting up with the short tempers of those who have just stopped smoking ... Suggesting healthy activities IF the person has said "I'm really out of shape"...
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002
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James
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5341
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posted 20 June 2005 11:14 AM
H'mmm, timely ....A recently made new friend of mine in her mid 50's shares a house with her aged mother. "Mum" has a variety of physical ailments, perhaps not surprising for a woman in her 80's. Friend was very distressed yesterday. Seems that recently, "mum" has become increasingly intransigent in not following her prescribed medical protocol, over-medicating, not eating, sleeping all day then unable to sleep at night, etc. Saturday, friend returned from work mid-afternoon to find that mum had applied a fresh morphine patch a day earlier than prescribed, supplimented that with codeine tylenol, skipped breakfast and lunch, hadn't dressed or washed, and stayed in bed but for frequent smoke breaks. Friend was quite perturbed, and admonished her mother and threatened to again contact CCAC. (They were involved earlier, and "mum" quite resented their "interference"). "Mum" reacted quite crossly to friend's admonitions, and they had whay sounds to have been a quite nasty and lingering squabble. Friend finds herself terribly and emotionally conflicted. She loves her mother dearly, hates being in conflict with her; yet equally cannot bear to simply sit back and watch her choose a course of self destruction and wasting away. Friend was very distressed and tearful during our brief time together yesterday, and I'm feeling quite inadequate in providing the advice and support she is seeking.
From: Windsor; ON | Registered: Mar 2004
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skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478
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posted 20 June 2005 11:38 AM
James, take all advice, including mine, with a grain of salt, but here's my reading:It is unwise to cast that older mother's behaviour as "self-destructive." In her eighties, she is at least becoming forgetful (most people do), and she may be in the early stages of dementia. Your friend might want to have a conversation with an Alzheimer Society counsellor before she goes back to the CCAC. The AS counsellors are brilliant, entirely non-judgemental, and they don't intervene. They don't advise about Alzheimer's only -- they have seen and heard about all kinds of variations on memory loss in the elderly, and they will discuss any of these situations empathetically. If your friend's mother is becoming confused, then sooner or later whoever lives with her is going to have to start to think of self as a caregiver. And one thing a caregiver should never do is to argue with or berate someone who is confused. An AS counsellor can suggest ways that your friend could talk to her mother, at the same time beginning to take measures to prevent mother from harming herself. But arguing is totally counter-productive. It may also be that your friend is going to need professional help soon. That's when she should turn to the CCAC. If she is dreading the idea of being a caregiver, she should be honest about that -- it is best to face that problem right away. It isn't good for either party when a caregiver is frightened or resentful.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001
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James
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5341
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posted 20 June 2005 11:55 AM
Thanks skdadl and lagatta. Yes, friend averts to a dementia or Alzheimers dimension, (I think CCAC may have diagnosed same) I'll certainly pass on your suggestion re the AS counsellor. She does somewhat dispair that "mum" has her good days and not so good days, and seems quite adept pulling of a "good day" whenever she is to be assessed. I can't see it being a case of fearing or resenting becoming a caregiver. If anything, it appears to me, (and apparently to her brothers and a woman co-worker) that she may be overly invested in being the caregiver - that she ought to back away a bit and "get a life". (no conflict of interest here ) Quite a dilemma.
From: Windsor; ON | Registered: Mar 2004
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skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478
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posted 20 June 2005 12:07 PM
Two points: If a CCAC social worker has already assessed mother, then ... things should be happening. (A question, though: has mother not seen a doctor? The CCAC workers are very acute, but anyone suspected of having dementia should be seeing a doctor. In early stages, there are medications that may be of help in suppressing symptoms -- all are controversial, but a good doctor will at least try.)Everyone who assesses dementia patients is aware of the good days / bad days syndrome, and that won't throw them off -- sounds as though the CCAC worker already grasped that. About everyone else's reactions to your friend: One of the things an Alzheimer's counsellor would say to you is "Trust the primary caregiver." In other words, it is probably a mistake for you and other friends to try nudging the caregiver. She knows more than you possibly can, and her gut instincts are probably right. If she wants to remain primary caregiver, then she is probably right. Few things hurt me more or caused me more trouble in the early stages of my husband's illness than the well-meaning but terribly subverting doubts of some friends and family who were "worried" about me. When people become committed in these situations, they are to be followed, not led. Yes, there may be dangers, and we all worry about someone falling through the cracks -- it happens. But much more commonly, primary caregivers have to fight off patronizing helpers who don't actually know what life day by day is like in these situations. Your friend really needs to talk to neutral, objective, non-judgemental people, like an AS counsellor or the CCAC workers. Anyone who is taking it upon him/herself to worry about the situation might benefit from a talk with the AS as well. Talk to them before you burden your friend. NB: You can phone the AS in most larger centres; ask to speak to a counsellor; and one will call you back. They are GREAT. James, in closing, I am a bit surprised that a CCAC worker would have assessed dementia but then dropped out of the picture. That's not normally how they work.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001
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James
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5341
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posted 20 June 2005 12:21 PM
quote: Originally posted by skdadl: James, in closing, I am a bit surprised that a CCAC worker would have assessed dementia but then dropped out of the picture. That's not normally how they work.
Well, I'm not really sure that happened. And yes, there is at least a GP involved as friend took mum to an appointment late last week. And of course where else the myriad of prescription meds? Whether a "good one" or not, who knows ? Myexperience with my late grandparents leaves me quite painfully aware of the tendency of some G.P.s to overly prescribe, often to the point of causing a pharmacollogical dementia. As best as I understand the situation, CCAC was involved and attending on a several time per week basis when "mum" was living alone. Then, about a year ago, friend and mum decided to purchase and move into a house together, and since then CCAC has been monitoring only. But as I said, this is quite a recent friendship and I don't pretend to have all the details, nor any of the answers.
From: Windsor; ON | Registered: Mar 2004
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skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478
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posted 20 June 2005 12:28 PM
Hmmn. One further observation: maybe an ordinary family doctor is not good enough. Ours certainly wasn't -- he left me high and dry. The only good advice he gave me upon diagnosis was to call the AS. Everything else he said was useless.The AS counsellor, however, suggested I call the Royal Soc of Physicians and Surgeons and ask whether there were any geriatricians accepting new patients. I did that, got three names ... and really lucked out! I met a genius, who then took care of us for a year. He would CERTAINLY never have allowed any kind of drug cocktail to be delivered. He tried the standard early-stage medication, which is called Aricept. Everyone knows about Aricept. It is claimed that about a third of people in early stages may benefit from it (symptomatically -- it does not extend life), and another third may at least hold in place. There are other, newer meds like it. Some controversy continues about all. Unless mother in this situation needs meds for OTHER conditions, she shouldn't be taking a raft of them. I would really question a doctor who is handing out meds experimentally. Your friend also should know that there is an alert out warning AGAINST the prescription of anti-psychotics (eg, Risperdal) to the elderly, especially the elderly with dementia. Health Canada just published that warning last week, but the U.S. published it two months ago. Ditch the anti-psychotics. (This particular subject brings me close to fury.)
From: gone | Registered: May 2001
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skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478
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posted 20 June 2005 12:59 PM
James: like, tell me about it. In no way are we prepared to cope well with the situation your friend and her mother find themselves in. The hard truth is that your friend cannot continue to work and be a primary caregiver at the same time -- that's just the way it is. She will try -- we all do -- but then she will fail. She will have to make a choice between losing an income and putting her mother into a nursing home. Beyond a certain point, there is no way around that choice. Will that mean financial catastrophe (if she chooses to stop working and become a caregiver)? Yes. It does for most people. That is the way we live in Ontario right now. [ 20 June 2005: Message edited by: skdadl ]
From: gone | Registered: May 2001
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Wilf Day
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3276
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posted 20 June 2005 01:16 PM
Back to the thread "My mother mostly looks bemused at this as she carries on frying up bacon and eggs — in butter!"She knows that's very bad for her, but we're all allowed one evil addiction, and that's hers. My wife can't survive without butter either. Other than that, my daughter would keep gently helping us to get back on our diets. As indeed she does, I've lost 20 pounds since January 1. So keep helping, they know you're right.
From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002
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Timebandit
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1448
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posted 20 June 2005 02:32 PM
quote: I don't think nagging is done out of love, though the nagger may indeed love the naggee. It is a control issue, trying to tell others what to do with their lives and what to put in and on their bodies.
I don't think that's necessarily the case, lagatta. There's a difference between a critical style of nagging, and a loving way of doing it. I don't ever tell my mother that she's out of shape or damaging herself -- more like, "So when are you going to join that gym you mentioned?" or "I was watching the Tai Chi class at the school the other day, would you be interested in checking it out?". Or talking with her about the benefits of exercise when the topic comes up. I've been very clear on my opinion and on why I'd like her to be happy and healthy for a long while yet. In a sense, when you're part of a family, you do have some responsibility to look after yourself. If she has a stroke (and she's had one TIA), it will be up to me to look after her. I don't think it's out of line for me to urge her to deal with her health issues preventatively, as long as it's done in a respectful and loving way.
From: Urban prairie. | Registered: Sep 2001
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Rufus Polson
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3308
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posted 22 June 2005 03:43 PM
On any given topic I think is really important, with a person I'm fairly close to, I'll nag once. I figure if I, and everyone else, just never mention it ever at all, it normalizes the issue, lets them figure it's not really a big deal and nobody cares or is worried. I figure I owe it to someone I care about not to be bluffed by politeness fears into never raising it at all. But if I get after them all the time, it's a bad dynamic and anyway they'll tune out. So I do it once, fairly seriously, and make it clear that I am concerned and I don't think it's a small deal, but that I'm not going to be ragging on them about it generally. Then they know where I stand, and we can go on from there.
From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002
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skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478
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posted 22 June 2005 04:04 PM
Years ago, I had a deal with a non-smoking boyfriend (great guy, too -- we're still friends, or we would be if we'd seen each other for the last ten years or so). He was allowed to say, formally, once per encounter, "I think your smoking is a disgusting habit, and I worry that it is affecting your health." And I would reply, "Thank you for your concern." And that would be it till next encounter. We agreed that if he ever decided he needed to say more than that, or if I decided I couldn't even take that much, those would be signs it was all over. But that worked for about two years, and when we separated, it wasn't over smoking.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001
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'lance
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1064
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posted 22 June 2005 04:46 PM
quote: Well, don't get too excited, either. After a year or so, we certainly didn't.
< BB King > The thrill is gone baby... it's gone away for good... < /BB King > [ 22 June 2005: Message edited by: 'lance ]
From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001
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James
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5341
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posted 23 June 2005 08:51 PM
skdadl, you may be pleased to know (or maybe not), that on a visit to her doctor yesterday, the strength of my friend's mother's morphine patch was significantly reduced.[ 23 June 2005: Message edited by: James ]
From: Windsor; ON | Registered: Mar 2004
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EFA
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9673
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posted 13 July 2005 01:04 AM
quote: Originally posted by Josie:
Nag alert! While I won't comment on the bacon and eggs, many people, myself included, think butter is far healthier than margarine. Most margerines, (one exception being Olivina) contain trans-fats, which are very, very, bad for you. Of course too much of any fat is bad for you, but if the choice is margerine or butter, call me old-fashioned. Butter tastes way better too.
I certainly agree with you about butter being miles ahead of margarine but the thought of frying bacon in anything just makes me want to barf.
From: Victoria, BC | Registered: Jun 2005
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