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Author Topic: These parents have bad habits
Sharon
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posted 20 June 2005 09:22 AM      Profile for Sharon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Our reader's mother and father, both in their 60s live quite unhealthy lives. They get very little exercise and they both weigh more than they should. Mum says that she and Dad are enjoying life and our reader should stop worrying so much and enjoy life too. And what will auntie say? Put them on a diet? Sign them up at the gym?

Check her out.


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lagatta
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posted 20 June 2005 09:53 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I vehemently agree with Auntie. Not because of her mum, who must have extraordinary genes, but because it is none of the writer's business. How would she feel if her parents or another relative nagged her about her health habits? She would simply tune them out and it could well create a rift, as nagging and making others over usually does.

That said, it doesn't mean the writer has to eat the grease-laden food or become a couch potato. She should be congratulated for seeking out a healthy lifestyle despite a bad background in that respect. But none of this foisting it on others - it doesn't work.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Timebandit
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posted 20 June 2005 10:09 AM      Profile for Timebandit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm the only fitnik in my family. My mother has an aversion to any form of exercise that makes her break a sweat. She has a fairly good diet, although I'd prefer she not eat as much processed food, but she does watch out for cholesterol after having some health problems in that regard.

I do bug her about exercise, though. I can't help it. You can't really control her health issues through diet alone. She's had one health episode, and we lost Dad to lung cancer at 54 years old. So I nag. But I nag because I love, and she knows that.


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skdadl
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posted 20 June 2005 10:12 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Not Minding: You are buying skinless chicken breasts?!? I am horrified! Ecologically unsound!

See how it feels to be one-upped in the virtue stakes all the time? It feels like nagging, as lagatta says, and no one likes it.

Even if Not Minding's parents were doing much more dangerous things with their health -- addictions come to mind -- I would be very reluctant to intervene. But some of this strikes me as petty to begin with: I don't like much white bread either, but who doesn't enjoy a three-cheese sauce occasionally? Constant stress, from whipping ourselves over the small stuff or being whipped by others, is bad for our health too.

I'm almost as old as Not Minding's parents and I do all sorts of things that are less than healthy. Sometimes I think about them, and sometimes I even talk about my problems with one or two other people I trust. But the people I am willing to talk to are definitely not naggers or narks or fussers. They listen; they hang back; they might talk about themselves ("share"), but they don't impose. That gives me a chance to clarify my own thoughts and to find my own solutions. And it means that I don't feel like running away from them, which is definitely my immediate reaction to fussers.

We're not all going to be as lucky as auntie's mum in terms of the time we've got, but it's the quality that counts, and if Not Minding's parents are enjoying themselves now, then who's to mess with their minds?

It sounds as though Not Minding really cares about her parents, which is great. Maybe she could reflect on that and why, think of the things they've done that make her grateful for the life she now has. And maybe she could talk to them a bit more some time about those.


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Hailey
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posted 20 June 2005 10:12 AM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Auntie is right but I nag intensely.
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lagatta
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posted 20 June 2005 10:37 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My mum, who is almost as old as Auntie's (92) has nagged and criticised me mercilessly from as far back as I can remember. Often about contradictory things - - Saving enough money? - Have you bought any new clothes? so that is one of the reasons I feel so strongly about this. The other is simply a belief in personal autonomy. I'm sure as hell not going to tell a friend who smokes to stop - she isn't ignorant and knows it is unhealthy.

I don't think nagging is done out of love, though the nagger may indeed love the naggee. It is a control issue, trying to tell others what to do with their lives and what to put in and on their bodies.

There are ways of helping someone who really wants to make a change, in health or other matters... Not sabotaging their diet or putting up with the short tempers of those who have just stopped smoking ... Suggesting healthy activities IF the person has said "I'm really out of shape"...


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
James
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posted 20 June 2005 11:14 AM      Profile for James        Edit/Delete Post
H'mmm, timely ....

A recently made new friend of mine in her mid 50's shares a house with her aged mother. "Mum" has a variety of physical ailments, perhaps not surprising for a woman in her 80's.

Friend was very distressed yesterday. Seems that recently, "mum" has become increasingly intransigent in not following her prescribed medical protocol, over-medicating, not eating, sleeping all day then unable to sleep at night, etc.

Saturday, friend returned from work mid-afternoon to find that mum had applied a fresh morphine patch a day earlier than prescribed, supplimented that with codeine tylenol, skipped breakfast and lunch, hadn't dressed or washed, and stayed in bed but for frequent smoke breaks. Friend was quite perturbed, and admonished her mother and threatened to again contact CCAC. (They were involved earlier, and "mum" quite resented their "interference"). "Mum" reacted quite crossly to friend's admonitions, and they had whay sounds to have been a quite nasty and lingering squabble.

Friend finds herself terribly and emotionally conflicted. She loves her mother dearly, hates being in conflict with her; yet equally cannot bear to simply sit back and watch her choose a course of self destruction and wasting away.

Friend was very distressed and tearful during our brief time together yesterday, and I'm feeling quite inadequate in providing the advice and support she is seeking.


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lagatta
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posted 20 June 2005 11:28 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
James, I think that is rather a different issue. Not to be so foolish as to make a diagnosis based on a third-hand account, and I'm not a health care professional in any event, but here we seem to be dealing with the onset of dementia. Perhaps skdadl or others would have some ideas?

Of course, perhaps the mum simply thinks her time is over, is sick of living with a variety of ills, and wants to die in as little pain as possible.


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skdadl
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posted 20 June 2005 11:38 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
James, take all advice, including mine, with a grain of salt, but here's my reading:

It is unwise to cast that older mother's behaviour as "self-destructive." In her eighties, she is at least becoming forgetful (most people do), and she may be in the early stages of dementia.

Your friend might want to have a conversation with an Alzheimer Society counsellor before she goes back to the CCAC. The AS counsellors are brilliant, entirely non-judgemental, and they don't intervene. They don't advise about Alzheimer's only -- they have seen and heard about all kinds of variations on memory loss in the elderly, and they will discuss any of these situations empathetically.

If your friend's mother is becoming confused, then sooner or later whoever lives with her is going to have to start to think of self as a caregiver. And one thing a caregiver should never do is to argue with or berate someone who is confused.

An AS counsellor can suggest ways that your friend could talk to her mother, at the same time beginning to take measures to prevent mother from harming herself.

But arguing is totally counter-productive.

It may also be that your friend is going to need professional help soon. That's when she should turn to the CCAC. If she is dreading the idea of being a caregiver, she should be honest about that -- it is best to face that problem right away. It isn't good for either party when a caregiver is frightened or resentful.


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James
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posted 20 June 2005 11:55 AM      Profile for James        Edit/Delete Post
Thanks skdadl and lagatta. Yes, friend averts to a dementia or Alzheimers dimension, (I think CCAC may have diagnosed same) I'll certainly pass on your suggestion re the AS counsellor.

She does somewhat dispair that "mum" has her good days and not so good days, and seems quite adept pulling of a "good day" whenever she is to be assessed.

I can't see it being a case of fearing or resenting becoming a caregiver. If anything, it appears to me, (and apparently to her brothers and a woman co-worker) that she may be overly invested in being the caregiver - that she ought to back away a bit and "get a life". (no conflict of interest here )

Quite a dilemma.


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skdadl
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posted 20 June 2005 12:07 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Two points: If a CCAC social worker has already assessed mother, then ... things should be happening. (A question, though: has mother not seen a doctor? The CCAC workers are very acute, but anyone suspected of having dementia should be seeing a doctor. In early stages, there are medications that may be of help in suppressing symptoms -- all are controversial, but a good doctor will at least try.)

Everyone who assesses dementia patients is aware of the good days / bad days syndrome, and that won't throw them off -- sounds as though the CCAC worker already grasped that.

About everyone else's reactions to your friend: One of the things an Alzheimer's counsellor would say to you is "Trust the primary caregiver." In other words, it is probably a mistake for you and other friends to try nudging the caregiver. She knows more than you possibly can, and her gut instincts are probably right. If she wants to remain primary caregiver, then she is probably right.

Few things hurt me more or caused me more trouble in the early stages of my husband's illness than the well-meaning but terribly subverting doubts of some friends and family who were "worried" about me. When people become committed in these situations, they are to be followed, not led.

Yes, there may be dangers, and we all worry about someone falling through the cracks -- it happens. But much more commonly, primary caregivers have to fight off patronizing helpers who don't actually know what life day by day is like in these situations.

Your friend really needs to talk to neutral, objective, non-judgemental people, like an AS counsellor or the CCAC workers. Anyone who is taking it upon him/herself to worry about the situation might benefit from a talk with the AS as well. Talk to them before you burden your friend.

NB: You can phone the AS in most larger centres; ask to speak to a counsellor; and one will call you back. They are GREAT.

James, in closing, I am a bit surprised that a CCAC worker would have assessed dementia but then dropped out of the picture. That's not normally how they work.


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James
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posted 20 June 2005 12:21 PM      Profile for James        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
James, in closing, I am a bit surprised that a CCAC worker would have assessed dementia but then dropped out of the picture. That's not normally how they work.

Well, I'm not really sure that happened. And yes, there is at least a GP involved as friend took mum to an appointment late last week. And of course where else the myriad of prescription meds? Whether a "good one" or not, who knows ? Myexperience with my late grandparents leaves me quite painfully aware of the tendency of some G.P.s to overly prescribe, often to the point of causing a pharmacollogical dementia.

As best as I understand the situation, CCAC was involved and attending on a several time per week basis when "mum" was living alone. Then, about a year ago, friend and mum decided to purchase and move into a house together, and since then CCAC has been monitoring only.

But as I said, this is quite a recent friendship and I don't pretend to have all the details, nor any of the answers.


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skdadl
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posted 20 June 2005 12:28 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hmmn. One further observation: maybe an ordinary family doctor is not good enough. Ours certainly wasn't -- he left me high and dry. The only good advice he gave me upon diagnosis was to call the AS. Everything else he said was useless.

The AS counsellor, however, suggested I call the Royal Soc of Physicians and Surgeons and ask whether there were any geriatricians accepting new patients. I did that, got three names ... and really lucked out! I met a genius, who then took care of us for a year.

He would CERTAINLY never have allowed any kind of drug cocktail to be delivered. He tried the standard early-stage medication, which is called Aricept. Everyone knows about Aricept. It is claimed that about a third of people in early stages may benefit from it (symptomatically -- it does not extend life), and another third may at least hold in place. There are other, newer meds like it. Some controversy continues about all.

Unless mother in this situation needs meds for OTHER conditions, she shouldn't be taking a raft of them. I would really question a doctor who is handing out meds experimentally.

Your friend also should know that there is an alert out warning AGAINST the prescription of anti-psychotics (eg, Risperdal) to the elderly, especially the elderly with dementia. Health Canada just published that warning last week, but the U.S. published it two months ago. Ditch the anti-psychotics. (This particular subject brings me close to fury.)


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James
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posted 20 June 2005 12:42 PM      Profile for James        Edit/Delete Post
Thanks, and I'll end the thread drift here. I just have found it heart-tugging to see this woman of about my own age seemingly at her wits end, run ragged between employment, trying to deal with her own physical and emotional health issues, the demands of home ownership, and the frustration of her mother's care. So this auntie thread touched a recently aggravated nerve.
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skdadl
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posted 20 June 2005 12:59 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
James: like, tell me about it.

In no way are we prepared to cope well with the situation your friend and her mother find themselves in. The hard truth is that your friend cannot continue to work and be a primary caregiver at the same time -- that's just the way it is. She will try -- we all do -- but then she will fail.

She will have to make a choice between losing an income and putting her mother into a nursing home. Beyond a certain point, there is no way around that choice.

Will that mean financial catastrophe (if she chooses to stop working and become a caregiver)? Yes. It does for most people. That is the way we live in Ontario right now.

[ 20 June 2005: Message edited by: skdadl ]


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Wilf Day
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posted 20 June 2005 01:16 PM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Back to the thread "My mother mostly looks bemused at this as she carries on frying up bacon and eggs — in butter!"

She knows that's very bad for her, but we're all allowed one evil addiction, and that's hers. My wife can't survive without butter either.

Other than that, my daughter would keep gently helping us to get back on our diets. As indeed she does, I've lost 20 pounds since January 1. So keep helping, they know you're right.


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kuri
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posted 20 June 2005 01:24 PM      Profile for kuri   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I agree with auntie that nagging the parents won't help.

My mom has for years tried to get my dad to quit smoking. She leaves pamphlets on his desk (he throws them away), she tells him he's wasting his money*, hurting his health, reminds him that his parents died of lung cancer and nothing works. She's been successful in the fact that he only smokes outside now so as not to subject her (and me when I'm there) to second-hand smoke, but that's it. People just have to want to make the change for themselves.

*This isn't the same as that other thread on the smoking partner though since my parents always had their own jobs and thus never integrated their finances the way single-income couples do.


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Timebandit
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posted 20 June 2005 02:32 PM      Profile for Timebandit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I don't think nagging is done out of love, though the nagger may indeed love the naggee. It is a control issue, trying to tell others what to do with their lives and what to put in and on their bodies.

I don't think that's necessarily the case, lagatta.

There's a difference between a critical style of nagging, and a loving way of doing it. I don't ever tell my mother that she's out of shape or damaging herself -- more like, "So when are you going to join that gym you mentioned?" or "I was watching the Tai Chi class at the school the other day, would you be interested in checking it out?". Or talking with her about the benefits of exercise when the topic comes up. I've been very clear on my opinion and on why I'd like her to be happy and healthy for a long while yet.

In a sense, when you're part of a family, you do have some responsibility to look after yourself. If she has a stroke (and she's had one TIA), it will be up to me to look after her. I don't think it's out of line for me to urge her to deal with her health issues preventatively, as long as it's done in a respectful and loving way.


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Rufus Polson
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posted 22 June 2005 03:43 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
On any given topic I think is really important, with a person I'm fairly close to, I'll nag once. I figure if I, and everyone else, just never mention it ever at all, it normalizes the issue, lets them figure it's not really a big deal and nobody cares or is worried. I figure I owe it to someone I care about not to be bluffed by politeness fears into never raising it at all. But if I get after them all the time, it's a bad dynamic and anyway they'll tune out.
So I do it once, fairly seriously, and make it clear that I am concerned and I don't think it's a small deal, but that I'm not going to be ragging on them about it generally. Then they know where I stand, and we can go on from there.

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skdadl
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posted 22 June 2005 04:04 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Years ago, I had a deal with a non-smoking boyfriend (great guy, too -- we're still friends, or we would be if we'd seen each other for the last ten years or so). He was allowed to say, formally, once per encounter, "I think your smoking is a disgusting habit, and I worry that it is affecting your health." And I would reply, "Thank you for your concern." And that would be it till next encounter.

We agreed that if he ever decided he needed to say more than that, or if I decided I couldn't even take that much, those would be signs it was all over. But that worked for about two years, and when we separated, it wasn't over smoking.


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Michelle
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posted 22 June 2005 04:12 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Once per "encounter"? Does that mean, every date, or every conversation, or every time he saw you?

I don't think I could even take it that much. There's no way I would stay with someone who told me every time he sees me that he thinks my habits are "disgusting" and that he is concerned for my health. Once every six months, maybe. Once a year, even better.

Or better yet, no using the word "disgusting" to describe things I do, and perhaps leave in the "concerned for your health" part, to be said once in a while.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 22 June 2005 04:21 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Um ... date ... How do I explain this ... An encounter would sometimes last several days. Then I would have some days off. That help?

Because it turned into a sort of comic routine, it didn't bother me much after a while. Or maybe it was just one of the small signs that we really were too different. That may be true.


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Michelle
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posted 22 June 2005 04:24 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh, I see...well, I guess I can see how it could be done in a somewhat humourous way.

I'm not even going to touch the "several days" long encounter.


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skdadl
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posted 22 June 2005 04:35 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, don't get too excited, either. After a year or so, we certainly didn't.
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'lance
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posted 22 June 2005 04:46 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Well, don't get too excited, either. After a year or so, we certainly didn't.

< BB King >

The thrill is gone baby...
it's gone away for good...

< /BB King >

[ 22 June 2005: Message edited by: 'lance ]


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Bacchus
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posted 22 June 2005 09:22 PM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
no using the word "disgusting" to describe things I do

Well to be technical Michelle, We'd have to know ALL the things that you do, so we can judge the disgusting for ourselves (or merely titilating)


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Michelle
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posted 22 June 2005 09:23 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, I'll get right on that. NOT!
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Josie
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posted 23 June 2005 06:24 PM      Profile for Josie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

[ 12 September 2006: Message edited by: Josie ]


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James
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posted 23 June 2005 08:51 PM      Profile for James        Edit/Delete Post
skdadl, you may be pleased to know (or maybe not), that on a visit to her doctor yesterday, the strength of my friend's mother's morphine patch was significantly reduced.

[ 23 June 2005: Message edited by: James ]


From: Windsor; ON | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
EFA
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posted 13 July 2005 01:04 AM      Profile for EFA        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Josie:

Nag alert!

While I won't comment on the bacon and eggs, many people, myself included, think butter is far healthier than margarine. Most margerines, (one exception being Olivina) contain trans-fats, which are very, very, bad for you. Of course too much of any fat is bad for you, but if the choice is margerine or butter, call me old-fashioned. Butter tastes way better too.


I certainly agree with you about butter being miles ahead of margarine but the thought of frying bacon in anything just makes me want to barf.


From: Victoria, BC | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
kuri
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posted 13 July 2005 02:33 AM      Profile for kuri   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That's true. I never even thought of that. Doesn't bacon produce plenty of its own grease?

Anyway, an aside about butter, I noticed when I when I lived in Ottawa that there were ads on the bus shelter for Loblaws' cookies and cakes, trumpeting their health value, for they were made with real butter. They didn't quite call chocolate cake "health food" but got as close as they could without sounding ridiculous. When I was teen, advertisers hid their butter and trumpeted margarine. Now it's the reverse. What a nice experiment that was, eh?


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