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Topic: plastic surgery
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Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560
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posted 07 September 2007 09:59 AM
Well, I guess reconstructive surgery would be one, although, that's not what people generally think of as "plastic surgery".Then I guess there's also reductive surgery on breasts - some women find it extremely uncomfortable to carry around large breasts and do it for comfort. I don't have a problem with that. (Well, actually, I don't have a problem with doing it for any reason since it's not my body, but you know what I mean.) But I assume you're talking about doing plastic surgery entirely for aesthetic reasons? I guess the problem with that question is that we live in a society where there is never a "pure" reason for doing anything. I mean, I could say, "Hey, I colour my hair red because I really like the colour red," but who knows whether a little teeny tiny part of me is doing it to hide my grey hair, or is doing it because I feel insecure about my boring natural colour? When I wear make-up, it's not just a personal decision, it's also a social decision, influenced by the idea that dressed-up-means-make-up. Doesn't mean I always think that way, doesn't mean I always wear make-up. So I don't know. Is plastic surgery a feminist thing to do? Not really. Is it anti-feminist? Not really, but it could be, I suppose, depending on the reasoning behind it.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001
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Sineed
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11260
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posted 07 September 2007 12:48 PM
My first thought was no, cosmetic plastic surgery could never be feminist. But what if a woman wanted to get, say, a facelift, and her husband objected because of the expense, and she defied him, going ahead with the facelift and paying for it with money she earned, that'd be feminist.Personally, though, I'm against recreational surgery. Even if it isn't covered by the public health care system, complications of plastic surgery (e.g. infections, blood clots) would be. All medical procedures have risk, and if the benefit is purely esthetic for a person who wasn't disfigured, then surely cutting into a healthy body is mutilation.
From: # 668 - neighbour of the beast | Registered: Dec 2005
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Stargazer
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6061
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posted 07 September 2007 02:45 PM
quote: But so would tatoos or peircings?
Exactly. I have thought long and hard about plastic surgery in regards to feminism. My opinion is that it is and it isn't. The issue is far too complex to just dismiss as anti-feminist and it is also hard to dismiss as feminist as well. Some women feel empowered having plastic surgery. For some it gives them the advantage of still being able to get acting jobs in an ageist world. The fact is, that we live in a world where look are highly valued. Where youth culture is exalted, where women are not allowed to age gracefully and naturally. To adapt, some women chose to modify their bodies. Personally if I had a lot of money I would hire a personal trainer to kick my ass 4 times a week for 3 hours a day. This would certainly modify my body. I would probably also consider getting some cosmetic surgery. People choose to modify their bodies by various means - tattoos, piercings, surgery, diets, exercise. The only difference between all of these methods is the degree of harm and the degree of permanence. I don't think body modification is in and of itself inherently anti-women, especially given the very real world context in which women are judged. [ 07 September 2007: Message edited by: Stargazer ]
From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004
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Stargazer
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6061
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posted 07 September 2007 07:24 PM
You have a right to feel how you feel. Just a couple of things I want to say. A lot of women do not get plastic surgery for men. They get it for themselves because they generally feel there is a flaw with their bodies. I guess by extension it is for the benefit of the view of others, and those others are the generalized "men". I guess what I am saying is that it is not as simple as modifying your body for men. There is a whole psychology behind it that ties in with how women are viewed in society. This is why I understand why some women get surgery done, and also why I do not condemn them for doing so. Do some male bodybuilders use steroids to modify their body for other men, or for themselves? Would you have the same concern for them? Also, a lot of men get body modifications done - from eye laser surgery to butt implants. It is more common than you think for men to get plastic surgery. We live in a society where looks are increasingly important. The quest to stay forever young is insane. Look at the amount of people pumping iron for hours a day at the gym. Or the men and women dying their hair, shaving, and otherwise changing their appearance to fit some mold that keeps getting pushed at us. I think the only thing these women and men are guilty of is falling for it - and that is human nature. Most of us would like to stay or be thin, young, and beautiful. It's what is expected of us.
From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004
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Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560
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posted 08 September 2007 03:33 AM
That's right, Sineed, although I completely agree with Stargazer too, that if women want to do it, they shouldn't be put down because of it.This is why I say that, while getting plastic surgery for looks is not a feminist act, I wouldn't call it an "anti-feminist" act either. I think you can get plastic surgery and still be a feminist. I mean, you can do lots of things that aren't specifically feminist but aren't ANTI-feminist either. If I drink a glass of wine, that's not particularly feminist of me, but it's also not anti-feminist. It just is what it is. The problem with plastic surgery is that it has almost been labeled as ANTI-feminist, and I don't know, I just don't see it that way. It's no more anti-feminist than wearing make-up or shaving your legs or dying your hair, or wearing the latest style. It just is what it is.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001
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Remind2
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14491
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posted 08 September 2007 09:30 AM
quote: Originally posted by jrose: My initial reaction was the same thing as you Michelle, that nobody sees it, and if your partner doesn't like it, find another, but the more I think about it, I think maybe if it's hindering someone from finding another partner, and hindering their sexual liberation, maybe it really is no different than getting breast implants or a nose job.
Making ones labia look like a child's is different from getting breast implants and a nose job. And that thought form is as stargazer said is creepy. Moreover, scar tissue has diminished sensation capabilities, so if someone is looking for better sex from it, it would be doubtful if they could acheive such a thing. This really comes down to a type of skewed body image indoctrination. Link to surgery before and afters http://www.lasertreatments.com/labiaplasty.html
From: On Holiday | Registered: Sep 2007
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500_Apples
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12684
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posted 08 September 2007 03:01 PM
I'm fairly surprised by this thread. Babble is a large community is it not? I would have expected there be a few posters who not only have had plastic surgery, but are willing to discuss their experiences with it.Is anyone here considering plastic surgery? I'll definitely be getting a laser eye surgery, I'm sick and tired of glasses, of cleaning them and they still remain dirty, of their ruining quality, the lack of peripheral vision; I don't want to stick little disks in my eyes and I want to be able to buy sunglasses for under 500$. Besides, eyes look better than glasses. I might also get my teeth whitened, but I'm barely yellow at all. This one has the advantage that it's only a few hundred dollars so hey no pain right? I used to consider a rhinoplasty but not so much anymore. It's usually around $ 6000.... that's a gargantuan sum of money.
From: Montreal, Quebec | Registered: Jun 2006
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Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560
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posted 08 September 2007 05:18 PM
This is unbelievable: quote: “People's hand-washing compliance is abysmal,” said Dr. Gardam. “And it's particularly bad with certain groups, such as physicians.”Instead of punishing offenders, he believes the best way to change behaviour is to use more carrot than stick. So Dr. Gardam is toying with the idea of giveaways: Hospital staff caught in the act of “cleaning up” might be handed a card from Starbucks or maybe Tim Hortons. “If we're all washing our hands, it's [MRSA] not going anywhere,” Dr. Gardam said. “You can spend millions on surveillance and millions on rapid testing, but if you're not washing your hands, it probably doesn't matter that much.”
Physicians aren't washing their hands? 40% of health care staff don't wash their hands? What the hell is this, the fucking middle ages? And they want to pay people to wander about and give free coffees to doctors who are paid a couple of hundred grand a year whenever they see them washing their hands, and that'll solve the problem? Because we wouldn't want to do anything that might be seen as "a stick"? Gosh yes, we wouldn't want to tell a doctor that he's a fucking idiot for spreading germs that kill people because washing his hands is just too much to ask of someone who's getting paid a couple of hundred bucks an hour.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001
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The Wizard of Socialism
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2912
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posted 08 September 2007 06:19 PM
As anyone who is a longtime Babble reader knows, I have a fine ass. "Sublime buttocks" is the family-friendly phrase I use, but we all know what I mean. My ass is the way it is partly from genetics, but partly from the seven klicks I powerwalk five times a week. It looks great naked in the mirror, and makes this sharp, resounding noise when I slap it with the palm of my hand for dramatic effect. So I'm good there. And my unit, though toqued, is in showroom condition as well. So no worries in that department. But I have developed this nasty grand canyon like divide between my eyebrows. It's really cramping my style. As a single, heterosexual man in the dating scene, it's my duty to look as good as I can. The "Maxwell Sheffield" streak of gray on my noggin disappears with a bottle of Mr. Clairol. But this eye thing has got me freaked right out. I looked into botox, but I hate needles, and it has to be done regularly. I'm at the point where I'm browsing yellow pages ads, looking at plastic surgeons. I don't want surgery, but I don't want The Big Valley playing on my lower forehead while I'm trying to make The Love Connection. So ya, I'm considering it.
From: A Proud Canadian! | Registered: Jul 2002
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Sineed
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11260
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posted 08 September 2007 06:20 PM
Not to defend drs who don't wash their hands, but I've worked in several hospitals, and when you wash your hands as often as you're supposed to, you end up taking your skin off. I recall, during a busy day, sitting down for a break and noticing that my knuckles were bleeding.Where I now work, I special-order a nice moisturizing skin lotion that a plastic surgeon at the burn unit at Sunnybrook hospital recommended as the best product for sensitive skin--they use it for burn patients to wear under their pressure suits. I get it for the doctors and nurses (and me) to help ameliorate the effects of washing hands dozens of times a day. And don't talk to me about that awful alcohol hand sanitizer stuff--it makes you feel like you scrubbed down with glue and makes your hands smell funny. And washing with soap and water still works better. I contracted an infection after surgery to remove an abdominal tumour. I don't have a horror story like those in that Globe article, but the infection caused the scar to be much more disfiguring than it otherwise would have been. So having surgery when you don't have to strikes me as daft.
From: # 668 - neighbour of the beast | Registered: Dec 2005
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Tommy_Paine
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 214
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posted 09 September 2007 05:28 AM
This reminded me of something I saw in a documentary many years ago. After some spellunking on the net, I found the history:Wash your hands if you had them inside a dead person, before you do an internal on a pregnant woman.
quote: Holmes read the existing literature, and became convinced that the condition was highly contagious, and that doctors, nurses and midwives were the active agents of its spread. He began to speak and write on the subject, and in 1843 published his classic essay The Contagiousness of Puerperal Fever.8-10 The essay contains eight rules for the obstetrician, which included not only handwashing and changes of clothing, but also the avoidance of autopsies if obstetric cases were being managed.Holmes' conclusions were ridiculed by many of his prominent contemporaries. For example, Charles Meigs, a well-known obstetrician, was incensed at the suggestion he may himself be transmitting disease. "Doctors," he said, "are gentlemen, and gentlemen's hands are clean."
It's distressing to know that we are ignoring knowledge that was paid for so dearly, so long ago.
From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001
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