sometimes they do not have adequate knowlege of the history or substance of feminism to really understand it.
sometimes they do not have adequate understanding of what is appropriate.
i wish that all highschools taught a high quality feminism 101 to all students.
as this is seldom the case, how are they to know what they need to know?

i feel that some men tread very lightly because they don't wish to offend and they aren't sure where the 'safe' ground in discussion is because off their piecemeal background in feminism.

i also feel that men with good intent, but lacking in knowlege, find themselves in a hornets nest rather quickly and end up feeling put off of feminism.

what if babble had a well thought out permanent spot that had simple,relevant links to sites and articles that explained the main global and canadian womens issues?
a book list might be useful, as well.

if each link was briefly explained
[this is a link explaining the history of the politicization and economics of abortion], etc

or maybe some of you have a better idea.

i am worried about men who truly don't understand what feminism is and why it needs to be supported and understood by them.
i would like to help enable them to participate more fully and doing it one by one in the threads is surely spotty and wearing.

quote:

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it seems that the feminist forum attracts men who are genuinely interested in the topics and wish to discuss them.
sometimes they do not have adequate knowlege of the history or substance of feminism to really understand it.
sometimes they do not have adequate understanding of what is appropriate.
i wish that all highschools taught a high quality feminism 101 to all students.
as this is seldom the case, how are they to know what they need to know?

i feel that some men tread very lightly because they don't wish to offend and they aren't sure where the 'safe' ground in discussion is because off their piecemeal background in feminism.

i also feel that men with good intent, but lacking in knowlege, find themselves in a hornets nest rather quickly and end up feeling put off of feminism.

what if babble had a well thought out permanent spot that had simple,relevant links to sites and articles that explained the main global and canadian womens issues?
a book list might be useful, as well.

if each link was briefly explained
[this is a link explaining the history of the politicization and economics of abortion], etc

or maybe some of you have a better idea.

i am worried about men who truly don't understand what feminism is and why it needs to be supported and understood by them.
i would like to help enable them to participate more fully and doing it one by one in the threads is surely spotty and wearing.

any ideas
i am not savvy enough nor am i the least bit objective so i am a poorly qualified overseer of something like this. i do have a few good book titles though.

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Just wanted to say I don't think there's too much wrong. There's a fair variety of posters which is always the most important thing. I definitely can't speak for men since I'm an erratic one. I like to debate ideas, especially at the first and second orders of abstraction, and social sciences interest me.

When I was fourteen, I had developed my own world view, and I was convinced I was right and everyone who disagreed was a fool. I'm somewhat past that now, I realize now due to past experience that I probably have misconceptions on so many subjects, but I also realize it's not a huge deal as I currently have little real power. I disagree with the posters on the feminism forum on a lot of fine details often enough, and as such I'm interesting in seeing where debate can go, and maybe where the person at the other end is coming from.

Rapid fire quick links on key ideas might be a good option.

[ 10 July 2006: Message edited by: 500_Apples ]

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I'm not sure what's going on with the above two replies by Freecanuck and Scout, but really considerate opening post.

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Equality is simple people make it hard because they always think an exceptions should be made. Usually For them.
The problem as I see it is that the only feminists who get heard are man haters. They don't want equality they want revenge. I do admit to a perverse pleasure in exposing these people in public, mind you it's easy they are fanatics.
I have no problem with women doing ANY job as long as NO standards are dropped in order for them to qualify.
Knowing your weaknesses is the greatest strength a person can have. Of course you have to be willing to be honest to yourself. Which is hard at first. I realize it's easier to blame others but bottom line is. Accept the fact the the bar is at five feet and you can only jump four and half. Either practice jumping higher or move on.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Stargazer:

Saving this one for prosperity. This is why we have rules in this forum. Jeezus, I hope this isn't what most men think like...

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I don't think it is.

And I don't think Freecanuck is here to contribute in a pro-feminist way in this forum. So, being the "man-hater" that he probably figures I am, I'm going to ask him to stay out of the feminism forum from now on. I haven't reviewed his other posts in other threads to see if they're this offensive, but if they are, then he's getting the boot.

Okay, I'm back. Just saw another post where he's calling AIDS a "lifestyle disease" and in the next breath saying he gets called "homophobic" for saying so - so it's obvious that he's using that as a codeword. So, this was obviously not just some off post where he worded something clumsily.

So, "manhating feminist" stereotypes + homophobic crap = banned.

[ 10 July 2006: Message edited by: Michelle ]

it seems that this forum is being used by many people to better understand issues and what others are thinking.

i do think that if there is only one area of resources kept permanently on babble that feminism is the one---it may not have been the original mandate, but i think that it's vital.
we need men to understand feminism and how it is so connected to social justice in every human arena.
we need thoughtful men to feel that they have enough understanding to discuss things in the feminist forum. learning/teaching mid-forum doesn't seem adequate or well rounded enough to be understood or even true.
when a person on the fem forum begins to lose the concept it could be so helpful to have explanatory links [this link will explain why everyone has jumped down your throat about you last statement,etc]
it is contrived to promote only one broad viewpoint, but then it is a profeminist forum.

is there no one who agrees that this might work?

apples, thanks for mentioning the quiklinks, i am still struggling madly with even my keyboard so i can't do it. also, as i'm a book person i have little knowlege of the best links anyway.

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Originally posted by Stargazer:
The problem is, guys like the one who posted in this forum are not here to learn. They are here to spread hate.

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If you are a man, our society treats you different than a woman. Whether or not you realize it, your opinions are given more time and respect automatically. This is a privilege of being a man, not a right. The first step to being a feminist man is to realize this, and then to realize that maybe you need to be quiet and step back sometimes and let women speak.

i know it's been said before, and I'm happy that there are several men on Babble that understand this concept, but I just thought that I'd say it again. Maybe someone new will consider the idea that he doesn't have to always give his opinion.

ps. Good idea for a thread morningstar. i hope some men start posting in it.

[ 11 July 2006: Message edited by: moal ]

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Originally posted by moal:
maybe you need to be quiet and step back sometimes and let women speak.

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But .. but ..

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i hope some men start posting in it.

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DOES ... NOT ... COMPUTE ...

I also wonder why the FF would need want men's contributions in the first place, but again, ignorance.

[ 11 July 2006: Message edited by: RP. ]

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Originally posted by RP.:
I also wonder why the FF would need want men's contributions in the first place, but again, ignorance.

[ 11 July 2006: Message edited by: RP. ]

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right now, despite their upbringing , my guys would be very uneasy ever participating...they know that they really don't understand the feelings or the fundamental issues well enough.

the young men that i know well, all seem to carry an odd combination of collective guilt,[which translates into defensiveness at times] and a feeling of being mystified and disabled in some way by feminism.

more citations to the wikipedia and other objective media (including published feminist authors, of course). Less, "I know this because I have talked to lots of women" type posts. Maybe this forum shouldn't focus on helping men, per se, there may be more important objectives here, like making women feel good about themselves, I don't know.

However, speaking as a man and assuming that I am here to be taught, you don't want to tell me that you know better than me just because you have met lots of people and decided what the deal is on this controversial issue or that. Cause I am thinking, "ya know, I have talked to lots of ppl, too, and my experiences with both females and males are more mixed than the women-good, men-bad attitudes that occasionally pop up here." Now, to the extent that attitude falls out of real stats, or at least widely published anecdotes, I like to read the stats and the stories. Links are good -- better than a shopping list to take to the book store.

However, when it is a regular person telling me her conclusions based on general life experiences, I will tend to go with my wife's conclusions or mother's conclusions or sister's conclusions more quickly than I will go with the conclusions of some relative stranger on a message board.

[ 12 July 2006: Message edited by: Farces ]

[ 12 July 2006: Message edited by: Farces ]

[ 12 July 2006: Message edited by: Farces ]

when a group of people throw caution to the wind and speak ,not only from a place of accumulated life experience but also from the heart, a new collective entity forms and amazing ideas can emmerge.
it does take some good intent and fearlessness.

however, my practical nature thinks that the above could be facilitated in the feminist forum by having at the ready, simple background information.

lets take good old abortion

there could be info on how other places are handling it and what the net results seem to be
[scandanavia is a good example]
related issues like ease of access to birth control, societal attitudes around abortion,etc.
should be included.

the history of the politicization of abortion
the history of religious dictates re abortion
the history of state criminalization of abortion and the effects on various societies[romania before and after is an interesting example]
what far right groups are up to at home and abroad and the effects on women and ramifications for feminism in the future.

all of the reasonably straitforward information of this kind could be organized into a quick read that would demonstrate why most feminists feel that the issue is pivotol.

this is what i'm talking about
i'm willing to put energy into educating people if i have anything of value to offer up
i'm especially interested in participating in the building of group energetics that are capable of
ideas that most individual efforts don't accomplish.

quote:

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Originally posted by morningstar:
. . . there could be info on how other places are handling it and what the net results seem to be
[scandanavia is a good example] . . .

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I know that I, myself, have suggested recently and right here in the BABBLE FF that Canada regulate abortion more like Germany, France and England do. I think this comparative law approach is an excellent technique.

I also think that there is nothing wrong with not trying to help males "get it." But those who do want to help males "get it" should understand that convincing is a big part of that particular job.

[ 12 July 2006: Message edited by: Farces ]

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Originally posted by Stargazer:
I think that is a great idea morningstar. The problem is, guys like the one who posted in this forum are not here to learn. They are here to spread hate.

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I agree too, most just want to crash the party and start trouble, but maybe that's just another good reason for trying this idea out. Been thinking along some similar lines of starting a kind of 'troll resource' thread, where basic arguments, facts and ideas about subjects which always draw them in can be compiled, if only so others can just point them back to it in the future and get on with more interesting discussions. Might take some time to get together but once more or less complete it would be more or less Done, and be faster then than having to repeat the same old argument over and over again for every fool that stumbles along. I wouldn't know where to begin Re Feminism though, not my issue. (Oh, and a belated welcome to Babble Morningstar, I've enjoyed reading your contributions so far even if I can't offer much here myself)

ETA: Not suggesting these all be part of one mega-thread either, was just thinking along similar lines. Whatever the regulars here think best, I'd be interested in reading.

[ 14 July 2006: Message edited by: EriKtheHalfaRed ]