quote:

---

U.S. prosecutors dropped all remaining charges Wednesday against the three Duke University lacrosse players accused of sexually assaulting a stripper at a party, saying the athletes were innocent victims of "tragic rush to accuse."

---

quote:

---

"There were many points in the case where caution would have served justice better than bravado," Cooper said in a damning assessment of Durham County District Attorney Mike Nifong's performance.

Cooper, who took over the case in January after Nifong was accused of ethics violations, said his own investigation concluded not only that the evidence against the young men was insufficient, but that no attack took place.

---

quote:

---

On Wednesday, the attorney general said no DNA supported the woman's story, no
other witness corroborated it, and the woman contradicted herself when describing the alleged attack.

"Based on the significant inconsistencies between the evidence and the various accounts given by the accusing witness, we believe these three individuals are innocent of these charges," Cooper said.

---

quote:

---

UPDATE, 4/11/2007, 6pm: Our local paper the Raleigh News and Observer has gone and publicly identified the accuser in this case.

(snip)

If you want to give them a piece of your mind, you can contact the N&O directly at [email protected].

(snip)

You can also contact executive editor Melanie Sill directly by email at [email protected]

---

genderracepower.com

From UBUNTU:

quote:

---

For June Jordan-in thanks for the reminder that "Wrong is not my name"
I am the history of rape
I am the history of unspeakable truths - spoken and disbelieved
I am the history of unrapable women - raped and surviving

I am the history of a Justice whose blindfold never concealed the brownness of my skin

who always seemed to see that I could not afford a lawyer

and never missed the fact I am lacking a dick

and thus the ability to say anything that matters

I am the history of a body whose services pay for pampers and formula

a body whose services kept roof overhead

and the lights on at night and shoes on baby’s feet

a body whose services you confused with permission to act on the perverse fantasies of your bigoted imagination

and your will to re-call how it felt when your forefathers violated my foremothers

as my forefathers picked the cotton for your t-shirt

the history of a body whose services still cost me far too much

I am the history of a changing account
I am the history of an inconsistent story
I am the history of insufficient evidence

insufficient evidence of my humanity

of my value - my right to exist and give my consent or not give it

I am the ‘lying whore’ you mark your respectability against
I am the DNA-dripping slut who makes you a ‘lady’ by contrast

I am the history of thunderous testimony to my own worthlessness and insufficiency and tangle of pathology

I am the canon of expert knowledge proclaiming my limitations and disabilities and mental deficiency and moral poverty

I am the science of mongrels and abominations

I am the history of a world that would rather forget I am someone’s mother, someone’s sister, someone’s daughter, someone’s beloved

I am the history of a world that would rather if I just shut up and stop being so angry all the damn time while they go about their business of keeping me in my place and bending the backs of my daughters and locking up my son - while they kill and rape and torture and silence people in every direction who coincidentally are brown just like me.

---

UBUNTU

Was Crystal Gail Mangum raped? I don't know. Was there sexual contact? The evidence says yes. Was there sexual contact with the three accused? The evidence says no.

What precisely do you want of them?

[ 11 April 2007: Message edited by: Bobolink ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by bigcitygal:
on a day in which no justice was served for Crystal Gail Mangum

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bobolink:
The DNA in the semen recovered from Crystal Gail Mangum at her hospital examination by a rape crisis team did not match the DNA of any of the accused.

Was Crystal Gail Mangum raped? I don't know. Was their sexual contact? The evidence says yes. Was there sexual contact with the three accused? The evidence says no.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Coyote:
...the vast majority of reported rapes are legitimate.

---

quote:

---

Creating a World without Sexual Violence
National Day of Truthtelling

April 28th, 2007
Durham, North Carolina
For all who ARE survivors of sexual violence…
For all who choose to BELIEVE survivors of sexual violence…
For all who KNOW WE CAN end rape culture…

…join us on April 28th, 2007, in Durham, North Carolina, as we come together—across divisions and disempowering silences—to create a world full of the safety, possibility, dignity, justice, and peace that we all deserve. Stand with us as we dare to imagine a world free from sexual violence and ALL forms of oppression.

Meet us in Durham to speak, teach, learn, demonstrate, and tell the truth. Together, WE can make this world a reality!!!

Questions? Contact us at [email protected] or check us out on My Space at www.myspace.com/ubuntunc

This event is being organized by: the North Carolina Coalition Against Sexual Assault, the North Carolina Coalition Against Domestic Violence, Ubuntu, Men Against Rape Culture, SpiritHouse, Raleigh Fight Imperialism Stand Together, Southerners on New Ground, Independent Voices, Black Workers for Justice, and Freedom Road Socialist Organization/OSCL.

---

All I'll say is: post traumatic stress really does fuck with your head.

A lifetime of being assaulted, living in fear of being assaulted, having trust betrayed, etc. etc. etc. can fuck with your head. You trigger. You flash back. You doubt yourself, your instincts, your world. Reality can be hard to track, because you are trapped in a nightmare. And a lot of your reality is attacked or not acknowledged by those around you. So you don't know what reality really is, some of the time.

Maybe you take drugs to cope with that nightmare. Maybe they turn against you, too.

Our culture loves each new juicy story of rape, maiming and murder. Each twisted and painful morality tale is fed to the next generation of girls, teaching them they have no safe place. The next generation of boys learn their own lessons.

We live in a culture of rape. And it's fucking up both men and women. Girls and boys. None of us can be free while this war rages on, unacknowledged for it's breadth, depth and devastating aftermath.

Was there a rape in this case? I would bet my life on it. More than one. When it started, who was involved ... what year or years it occurred ... those questions might be more difficult to address.

But many of us are guilty of standing by - of not doing enough - while women and girls are robbed of the right to their own damned bodies every day. Of fixating on the sexist, racist legal machine, and not on listening for the truth to edge out, once it's finally safe enough to let it emerge. Of being addicted to crime and punishment, and not ways to stop this thing. Not paying enough attention to justice.

I plead guilty, your honour.

[ 12 April 2007: Message edited by: writer ]

I suspect a lot of dirty ball has occured here. Nifong certainly used this case as leverage to gain re-election. Mangum was certainly cross-examined pretrial by the media. The current prosecutor's zeal to go after Nifong really has me wondering what to believe. It smacks of pressure from outside the Attorney General's office, frankly.

quote:

---

Briguy: I find it kind of disgusting that the victim's credibility was destroyed because of a prior report of rape

---

I find it kind of disgusting that a board of lefties, who constantly challenge the corrupt and biased US state, including the justice system, find it so easy to accept what the state is doling out right now.

I find it disurbing that more feminists here on babble aren't joining me in my outrage and sorrow at this completely-not-surprising outcome for Crystal.

Have people forgotten about the history of white men and black women in the southern US? Entitlement and dehumanization leading to rape as norm, rape as acceptable, rape as being part of the boys' club, part of the culture? I haven't.

Does anyone imagine that these white young men did anything other than "take" what they were "entitled" to, having "bought" the services of two strippers of colour? And that their only outrage is that this one woman spoke out, pushed back? There's no doubt in my mind that both women were assaulted and abused. That night. By those young men.

quote:

---

Originally posted by bigcitygal:

I find it kind of disgusting that a board of lefties, who constantly challenge the corrupt and biased US state, including the justice system, find it so easy to accept what the state is doling out right now.

I find it disurbing that more feminists here on babble aren't joining me in my outrage and sorrow at this completely-not-surprising outcome for Crystal.

Have people forgotten about the history of white men and black women in the southern US? Entitlement and dehumanization leading to rape as norm, rape as acceptable, rape as being part of the boys' club, part of the culture? I haven't.

Does anyone imagine that these white young men did anything other than "take" what they were "entitled" to, having "bought" the services of two strippers of colour? And that their only outrage is that this one woman spoke out, pushed back? There's no doubt in my mind that both women were assaulted and abused. That night. By those young men.

And I can't believe I have to say this, but rape happens in many different ways, and rape can happen leaving no semen. It's still rape. Think about it.

---

Your point is taken, but do we also not believe in the fundamental concept of the presumption of innocence? Whilst I am not up to date on the Criminal law of individual US states, I would presume that in order for a case to proceed by indictment, a prima facie case should exist. DNA evidence showing that the accused in this case could not have done the attack on this woman.

quote:

---

I am the history of a changing account
I am the history of an inconsistent story
I am the history of insufficient evidence

---

quote:

---

Hopefully the police will continue the investigation and try to find the perpetrators of the attack.

---

Do you know the stats on rape, complaints, charges, court and decisions? Do you know how many times women are raped by foreign objects? Is it only raw penis + semen that count as rape?

The presumption of innocence is somewhat problematic for the citizens here in hell. I support it. But.

Let me ask you some questions: Have you ever said OJ Simpson is guilty? Heard anyone else say so? Objected to people saying so?

[ 12 April 2007: Message edited by: writer ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by bigcitygal:

I find it kind of disgusting that a board of lefties, who constantly challenge the corrupt and biased US state, including the justice system, find it so easy to accept what the state is doling out right now.

I find it disurbing that more feminists here on babble aren't joining me in my outrage and sorrow at this completely-not-surprising outcome for Crystal.

Have people forgotten about the history of white men and black women in the southern US? Entitlement and dehumanization leading to rape as norm, rape as acceptable, rape as being part of the boys' club, part of the culture? I haven't.

Does anyone imagine that these white young men did anything other than "take" what they were "entitled" to, having "bought" the services of two strippers of colour? And that their only outrage is that this one woman spoke out, pushed back? There's no doubt in my mind that both women were assaulted and abused. That night. By those young men.

And I can't believe I have to say this, but rape happens in many different ways, and rape can happen leaving no semen. It's still rape. Think about it.

---

I'll trust in a sober analysis of the facts, and whether there was enough evidence to prosecute. Not in justice by ideological axe-grinding, where people are believed or disbelieved solely based on their race or gender. An even more egregious example was this infamous case:

quote:

---

The racially inflamed case began in 1987, when Brawley, then 15, was found four days after disappearing from her home. She was found in a garbage bag with dog feces smeared on her body and racial epithets scrawled on her. She claimed a gang of white law enforcement officers had abducted and raped her.

Eventually, a grand jury pronounced her story a hoax, exonerating Pagones.

But during the furor that preceded the investigation, Sharpton, Maddox and Mason leveled repeated, unsubstantiated charges that Pagones was among those who abducted and raped Brawley.

---

Accuser: "You did it."

This is why I no longer post about rape on babble. But I couldn't stand seeing BCG stand alone on this one.

quote:

---

Originally posted by writer:
I was told by a female cop that my assault didn't really happen unless a judge told me it did, and so I shouldn't do anything about it until the announcement came down. If charges were pressed. If the crown took the case. If it went to court.

Do you know the stats on rape, complaints, charges, court and decisions? Do you know how many times women are raped by foreign objects? Is it only raw penis + semen that count as rape?

The presumption of innocence is somewhat problematic for the citizens here in hell. I support it. But.

Let me ask you some questions: Have you ever said OJ Simpson is guilty? Heard anyone else say so? Objected to people saying so?

[ 12 April 2007: Message edited by: writer ]

---

That is a non-sequitur.

What you are really saying is that we should do away with the presumption of innocence.

I have no reason to doubt that this woman was attacked. I'm not arguing with you on the issue of the social facts regarding sexual assaults.

In this case there was clearly enough DNA evidence to take a sample. Presumably, further tests could be done on potential suspects to identify a perpetrator.

With respect to your second comment, in Canada, any form of unwanted sexual touching, ie. fondling, ass-slapping etc. is by definition a sexual assault. I've seen several such charges go ahead here in Regina, most of which result in convictions.

I also accept that the police tend to be very patriarchal and callous about such assaults.

Me, I can take the taunts, bring 'em on. I figured I'd get the party line from youse guys, but it's fascinating how the leftist critical analysis of the police and the US justice system fly out the window.

How about when some guy is busted for smoking weed? Or when some white protester is arrested for vandalism or "resisting arrest"? Will your outrage return? I await anxiously.

quote:

---

Originally posted by writer:
So, because a judge never said I was raped, it didn't happen?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by bigcitygal:
.... There's no doubt in my mind that both women were assaulted and abused. That night. By those young men.

---

apparently, DNA evidence says otherwise,
at least on the rape accusation:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/12/us/12duke.html?hp

which satisfies people of good faith, despite the symbolic freight the charges carried:

Irving Joyner, a law professor at North Carolina Central University, who had been monitoring the case for the N.A.A.C.P., echoed that theme, saying, “Based on my personal knowledge of him and high respect of [the attorney general], I accept his conclusions.”

Likewise, the Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network, one of the largest such groups in the nation, released a statement saying it was satisfied with the attorney general’s decision to drop all charges.

.

[ 12 April 2007: Message edited by: Geneva ]

quote:

---

I find it disurbing that more feminists here on babble aren't joining me in my outrage and sorrow at this completely-not-surprising outcome for Crystal.

---

I don't want to bang my head against a wall. I don't want deal with fuckwitted men on the issue of rape on babble.

They can go force their reasonableness on someone else - the you know they could be innocent and she could be a liar - women do lie about rape sometimes is all I am hearing. Not all complaints are legit you know.

quote:

---

I remember the article on salon.com a few weeks back on Fox commentator Rachel Marsden. Apparently her coanchors were asking her questions on the show about what she thought of the Duke rape case. Most of the viewers didn't get it but I'm sure the cohosts got it and she got it... she snapped back apparently.

For those who are unfamiliar, when rachel marsden was at simon fraser in the early 1990s she accused i forget how many members of the staff and faculty of sexual assault and stalking. Some faculty would refuse to teach her/ evaluate her because they were afraid of false rape allegations apparently.

---

Do you have a point?

[ 12 April 2007: Message edited by: josh ]

symbolic crusades are very dangerous: esp. when they overrule entirely the specific facts of a specific case, and urge us to imprison people based on generalities

.

[ 12 April 2007: Message edited by: Geneva ]

quote:

---

Some people cheat welfare too and that schtick gets nothing but scorn here but rape - well not all complaint are legititmate you know.

---

There's plenty of derision against welfare people. There is disproportionate derision. People get elected on bashing welfare cheaters, all 2% of them. I'm not sure what *your* point is. My mother spent time on welfare due to medical problems, I'd like you to explain what it is you meant. Abusing the system is always wrong regardless of which fault in the system is being exploited. That doesn't mean we should do away with things like welfare or the reasonable woman standard.

In this case, I wouldn't want to be those boys. Their reputations have been shattered, some people will always think they're guilty even though they're innocent, they had 88 faculty libel them publically. Personally I can imagine few things more horrifying than being falsely accused of a crime... and then be presumed guilty.

And to whoever asked, yes, I give OJ simpson the presumption of innocence.

quote:

---

It seems like BCG is arguing for this very simple formula:
Accuser: "You did it."

Judge: "Therefore, you are guilty."

---

Well you formula seems even simpler: the media of a white supremist nation says the rich white men are innocent it means they are innocent.

quote:

---

Eventually, a grand jury pronounced her story a hoax, exonerating Pagones.

---

quote:

---

symbolic crusades are very dangerous

---

The posters on this thread need to give their head a violent shake. It's disgusting. Learn about what it means to be raped, what rape means. The core power dynamic is men asserting their violent rights of property and control over a woman. And then, when the case is reduced to the word of three Duke athletes against one black whore (as the press so effectively painted her), the word of the whore doesn't hold up. So all you do is reconstruct the same hateful, hurtful power imbalance. It's been shown time and time again that the means our justice system uses to examine rape cases is woefully, criminally insufficient. Much more than it is usually insufficient, especially when it deals with sex-workers, POC or the poor. I can't believe that this judge has more credibility on this board than the fucking 9/11 attacks. Oh sorry, I mean "hoax."

I can't even adequately explain the problems here, and the ones who can have been disgusted or insulted into silence. At least, those who are even still here. I can't believe that the message board operated by Judy Rebick has suffers this much of a dissonance in its conception of rape. Jesus Christ.

[ 12 April 2007: Message edited by: Catchfire ]

quote:

---

Dangerous to whom?

---

quote:

---

All were members of the KKK. To sit on the grand jury, you were required to wear white robes and a white hood.

---

If you can provide me evidence that the american criminal justice system is not racist do so. If you think this racism is not systemic, embedded please make your case. It really doesn't matter in the end if the robes are white or black if the outcome is the same.

Try doing a little research on the criminal justice system and race and find out how likely it is for a black person to obtain justice in north america.

Try also doing some research on sexual assaults and legal outcomes.

The point is the is not an isolated case,it is deeply ignorant to attempt to remove this from the contexty of race or gender and responses to a racist and mysogyinist criminal justice system operating within a racist and mysogyinsitic culture.

Neither the north american media or the criminal justice system has any credibility( remember weapons of mass destruction? remember Guatanamo bay?) So what motivates the rush to believe these sources now? Some absurd CSI fantasy that if an assault occured the DNA evidence will determine all? Unfortunately I think something more sinister is at work.

[ 12 April 2007: Message edited by: N.R.KISSED ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by bigcitygal:
Oh! My dream has come true! This has now turned into a thread to post false rape accusations. Hooray!

---

I don't think that's the case at all, BCG.

But, it seems fair to say that you're point of view is that there are no false accusations.

"You did it."

Do you consider it inconceivable that these men be innocent?

quote:

---

symbolic crusades are very dangerous:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by N.R.KISSED:

If you can provide me evidence that the american criminal justice system is not racist do so. If you think this racism is not systemic, embedded please make your case. It really doesn't matter in the end if the robes are white or brown if the outcome is the same.

Try doing a little research on the criminal justice system and race and find out how likely it is for a black person to obtain justice in north america.

Try also doing some research on sexual assaults and legal outcomes.

The point is the is not an isolated case,it is deeply ignorant to attempt to remove this from the contexty of race or gender and responses to a racist and mysogyinist criminal justice system operating within a racist and mysogyinsitic culture.

Neither the north american media or the criminal justice system has any credibility( remember weapons of mass destruction? remember Guatanamo bay?) So what motivates the rush to believe these sources now? Some absurd CSI fantasy that if an assault occured the DNA evidence will determine all? Unfortunately I think something more sinister is at work.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by N.R.KISSED:

Well you formula seems even simpler: the media of a white supremist nation says the rich white men are innocent it means they are innocent.

---

quote:

---

Because there is racism in U.S. society and its justice system, every accusation by a black person against a white person should be believed regardless of the evidence. I get you.

---

No that is not what it means. What I am suggesting and catchfire has suggested as well, is that perhaps people might want to take some time out to question assumptions that they are making. Do some research to understand the implications of what they are saying but these claims in context.

As to the "evidence" the only "evidence" that anyone has is what has been filtered through the media and I have no reason to believe that.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dr. Whom:
Actually, I believe the formula that they applied in this case was that the lack of substantive evidence means that they are not guilty.

---

Me too.

quote:

---

Originally posted by N.R.KISSED:
Well you formula seems even simpler: the media of a white supremist nation says the rich white men are innocent it means they are innocent.

---

My “formula” is (1) a presumption of innocence when there is a criminal accusation and (2) an examination of known facts.

That’s far different than “the media of a white supremist nation says the rich white men are innocent it means they are innocent”.

BCG, on the other hand, is—essentially—saying that the accuser did not receive justice because the accuser’s (shifting) story was not believed on its face. My characterization (“You did it”—“Therefore, you are guilty”) certainly is a fairer and more accurate characterization than your politicized and unfair characterization of my “formula”.

quote:

---

Originally posted by bigcitygal:

Have people forgotten about the history of white men and black women in the southern US? Entitlement and dehumanization leading to rape as norm, rape as acceptable, rape as being part of the boys' club, part of the culture? I haven't.

Does anyone imagine that these white young men did anything other than "take" what they were "entitled" to, having "bought" the services of two strippers of colour? And that their only outrage is that this one woman spoke out, pushed back? There's no doubt in my mind that both women were assaulted and abused. That night. By those young men.

---

The history of racism in the Southern United States is an interesting topic, but it's absolutely irrelevant to this case. Prosecutors are supposed to look at each case individually, based on its individual merits. This case was about specific people being accused of a specific crime. The Durham, NC prosecutor's job isn't to prosecute a few lacrosse players for a nation's long history of racism.

quote:

---

My “formula” is (1) a presumption of innocence when there is a criminal accusation and (2) an examination of known facts.

That’s far different than “the media of a white supremist nation says the rich white men are innocent it means they are innocent”.

---

and where exactly are your facts coming from if not the white supremist media.

Except we know that he wasn't.

Except that we know innnocent people end up on death row in the US, most of them persons of colour and some of them die there.

I don't see what DNA has to do with it. So if your rapist doesn't leave semen behind you weren't raped. Is that all rape is to some people - left behind sperm?

In our own country we turned our back on scores of sex workers and let a serial killer play, so I can't see them trying to hard to give justive to a black "whore" at the expense of nice white boys down in the USA.

What stinks about this thread is the constant raising of the spectre that some women lie about rape. The "See, see, see - she lied" tenor of this thread. And plenty of nice progressive boys are the ones buying into the medias version of the events - and assuming well it must be true - she lied. Hell we even got a Rachel Marseden smack in the face. Thanks. That was so progressive of you.

quote:

---

Originally posted by N.R.KISSED:
and where exactly are your facts coming from if not the white supremist media.

---

quote:

---

Do you consider it inconceivable that these men be innocent?

If not, what is your burden of proof for them to demonstrate their evidence?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scout:
And OJ is innocent too.

Except we know that he wasn't.

---

Personally, I think OJ killed his wife. But, I accept the fact that a jury found him not guilty.

In that particular case, the victims’ families sued OJ in civil court for wrongful death and they won (with an appropriately lower standard of proof). Perhaps there is sufficient evidence for the accuser in this case to do the same. If there is sufficient evidence to win such a civil case, don’t think for a second that there aren’t plenty of talented lawyers out there who would take this case on a contingency-fee-basis given that civil damages to be extracted from these “wealthy” men and their families would be substantial.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scout:
I don't see what DNA has to do with it.

---

What contrary evidence do you have?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scout:
So if your rapist doesn't leave semen behind you weren't raped.

---

Of course not. But, there must be some evidence of the crime. In these cases, it’s usually the testimony of the accused. And, a shifting, self-contradictory story by the accused here undermines the credibility of that evidence.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scout:
And plenty of nice progressive boys are the ones buying into the medias version of the events - and assuming well it must be true - she lied.

---

Perhaps you’re right. But, you are then guilty of the same error of generalization:

quote:

---

What stinks about this thread is the constant raising of the spectre that some women lie about rape. The "See, see, see - she lied" tenor of this thread. And plenty of nice progressive boys are the ones buying into the medias version of the events - and assuming well it must be true - she lied. Hell we even got a Rachel Marseden smack in the face. Thanks. That was so progressive of you.

---

Exactly, Scout. The gleeful chime accusing bcg of reducing complicated accusations down to "if she said it, he did it" is particularly abhorrent. For everyone praying at the altar of "facts" what about the "fact" that the woman says she was raped? There has been nothing to discount that "fact." The media treated this woman in a such a way...my gorge rises at it.

quote:

---

Originally posted by N.R.KISSED:
I believe the woman was assaulted at this party

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Catchfire:
Exactly, Scout. The gleeful chime accusing bcg of reducing complicated accusations down to "if she said it, he did it" is particularly abhorrent.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Catchfire:
What she's actually saying is that we need to treat rape cases differently, but you reduce it to a simplistic A is A formula so that you can mock and belittle her. It's a classless move.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scout:
And for the record, they weren't proven innocent, charges were dropped by the prosecutor - who is merely a cog in the wheel of law.

The prosectutor decided they were innocent based on his view of the case - that is not justice.

---

quote:

---

So, how, specifically, would you treat rape cases “differently”?

---

In any case, criminal or civil, the credibility of a witness is subject to the test of cross-examination by the defense. Did the story change? Are there inconsistencies in the story? What might motivate a particular accuser to make a false accusation?

As uncomfortable as it is, those are all questions that a defense counsel can legitimately explore. In the absence of a cross-examination of the accuser’s credibility, the only alternatives are to: (1) accept an accusation as absolute—and unchallengeable—truth or (2) completely bar it from consideration.

The first alternative is problematic—to put it lightly—because it goes against everything we (or at least most of us, apparently) want in a criminal justice system: presumption of innocence and a requirement of sufficient evidence to conclude a defendant is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt before taking away a defendant’s freedom.

The second alternative is not acceptable because it is often the only evidence there is of rape.

quote:

---

On what basis?

---

On the basis that if a woman is not aware of how traumatic and brutalizing victims are treated within the justice system and how slim their chances of being heard, then they will be informed by a sexual assault counsellor or another support.

Also I have not met any people of african descent who have illusions about the racist nature of the criminal justice system and the extreme bias they face, especially against the word of rich white men.

She would also be aware of how her status as a sex trade worker would go against her. I imagine she would have been aware that she would be the target for white supremsit rage in the media and she would be attacked, maligned and dismissed.

Considering all these factors renders the "frivolous charges" theory both ridiculous and offensive.

quote:

---

And where, exactly, do you get your facts?

---

I get my research from research on the experience of victims of sexual assault and research on the treatment of these victims within the criminal justice system, the media and broader culture.

I get my information on research that demonstrates the operation of systemic racism in the criminal justice system, the media and broader culture.

I get my information by being a member of this culture and witnessing its exreme racist and sexist violence.

finally i get my information as a Trauma Counsellor who is daily witness to experiences of sexual violence that will never be heard in a courtroom or the media and often never even spoken of outside of my office.

[ 12 April 2007: Message edited by: N.R.KISSED ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Catchfire:
Well, Sven, unlike you, I would defer to rape victims and sexual-assault counsellors who have seen these cases countless times before, and could identify much better than a couple of men the weak spots of our sexual assault jurisprudence.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by N.R.KISSED:

On the basis that if a woman is not aware of how traumatic and brutalizing victims are treated within the justice system and how slim their chances of being heard, then they will be informed by a sexual assault counsellor or another support.

Also I have not met any people of african descent who have illusions about the racist nature of the criminal justice system and the extreme bias they face, especially against the word of rich white men.

She would also be aware of how her status as a sex trade worker would go against her. I imagine she would have been aware that she would be the target for white supremsit rage in the media and she would be attacked, maligned and dismissed.

Considering all these factors renders the "frivolous charges" theory both ridiculous and offensive.

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You’re not advocating a solution to the process. You are identifying problems in the existing process.

quote:

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Originally posted by Michelle:
I haven't seen you do either in this thread. Either one would probably be welcome at this point.

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quote:

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You’re not advocating a solution to the process. You are identifying problems in the existing process

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Male posts: 50

Coyote: 2
Bobolink: 1
Sven: 16
Briguy: 2
non-sequitor: 2
josh: 5
500 Apples: 4
Geneva: 3
NRKissed: 8
Catchfire: 5
Dr.Whom: 2

Female posts: 18

BCG: 8
Writer: 4
Scout: 3
Michelle: 3

Who's dominating this conversation on rape? You've posted almost as much as ALL THE WOMEN COMBINED in this thread.

And just for fun, since I'm on my lunch break at work, I thought I'd check out the posting PATTERN on this thread for gender as well.

In the first 20 posts:
10 men
10 women

In the next 20 posts:
17 men
3 women

That's what I call dominating the conversation. If that's "deference" in your dictionary, then I suggest you throw out that dictionary and find a new one. Maybe try Oxford.

[ 12 April 2007: Message edited by: Michelle ]

We want you to stop drowning out the voices of women in rape threads and alienating them to the point that they don't want to post.

*which raises the question whether it would be permissible to use the phrase "fuckwitted women" in any forum.

[ 12 April 2007: Message edited by: josh ]

Which means that, in discussions on rape, it shouldn't HAVE to be in the feminist forum for men to be respectful of women and not drown them out in the discussion.

One man in this thread has posted almost as many times as ALL THE WOMEN COMBINED! In a thread about rape! And although I'm skewing the numbers here a bit as the moderator stepping in, by the middle of the thread, almost all the women who were posting in the beginning had given up.

You don't think that's a problem? You don't think it's a problem that there might be some women who feel like they shouldn't really speak up because one man is polarizing the discussion to the point where, if you take issue with something another feminist is saying in this thread, you feel like you'll be joining the pile-on?

[ 12 April 2007: Message edited by: Michelle ]

First of all, thanks muchly to writer, N.R.Kissed, Catchfire and Scout for getting my back and getting it.

Now, onto more jokes:

quote:

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The history of racism in the Southern United States is an interesting topic, but it's absolutely irrelevant to this case.

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quote:

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Prosecutors are supposed to look at each case individually, based on its individual merits.

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Seriously, you seriously believe this? Holy need-a-wake-up call batman. Have you consider doing stand-up?

And I have a lovely condo that you must see. They're selling like hotcakes!

* * *

From my numerous years, jebus it's been almost 20, that I've been working in, and associated with, the anti-VAW movement (violence against women) I have seen, in ourselves as the "workers" and in the women we serve, the results of violence and rape up close and real personal. Statistically women do NOT make this shit up. Statistically, rapes are rarely prosecuted.

Sometimes women do change what they say happened. They do this for many reasons, some of which are related to trying to be "more believable", some of which are related to being threatened that their sexual and criminal history will be used to discredit them, some because of PTSD and many other reasons. Changing what she said happened doesn't mean it never happened at all, or that being confused about "what happened when" means she's making everything up.

Nobody in my radical feminist of colour circles expected her to win. We live in the real world and statistically white men don't get convicted on the word of women of colour. There's a fact for you fact-fetishits (no that's not a spelling error).

Oh, and another reason women rarely make this shit up?

quote:

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N.R.Kissed: She would also be aware of how her status as a sex trade worker would go against her. I imagine she would have been aware that she would be the target for white supremsit rage in the media and she would be attacked, maligned and dismissed.

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Women continue to be afraid to come forward out of fear of repricussions and failures of the criminal justice system

Duke is one of the top schools in the USofA both in sports basketball men and women but also in academics. Their law program and law review is one of the top in the nation.

I am not surpised at all that after a year of bad press and publicity for the school the charges have been dropped.

Regardless of whether or not the charges were warrented or not, if their was enough evidence to charge then they should have gone through with the trial to prove once and for all if these men are guilty of crimes charged.

To simply drop the charges is an insult to those women who are strong enough to come forward and tell their story.

quote:

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Originally posted by johnpauljones:

Regardless of whether or not the charges were warrented or not, if their was enough evidence to charge then they should have gone through with the trial to prove once and for all if these men are guilty of crimes charged.

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The prosecutor, in this case the Attorney General, should have proceeded with the case not based on what he personally believed the truth to be, but whether he thought he could reasonably prove the guilt of the accused beyond a reasonable doubt.

I'm a bit disturbed by the feminist posters on this thread who keep saying, ya, she was assaulted. I mean, what is this? Wishful thinking?

Personally, I hope she wasn't assaulted, and made a false accusation for personal reasons we don't know about. You ladies sound like you hope she was raped, so that you can score your political brownie points against the guys.

I'm disgusted.

[ 12 April 2007: Message edited by: Sineed ]

quote:

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You ladies sound like you hope she was raped, so that you can score your political brownie points against the guys.

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quote:

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Personally, I hope she wasn't assaulted, and made a false accusation for personal reasons we don't know about. You ladies sound like you hope she was raped, so that you can score your political brownie points against the guys.

I'm disgusted.

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This is outrageous. I seriously cannot believe this post is on a progressive board.