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Author Topic: Dutch to "test" (some) immigration applicants with pictures of kissing queers
Hephaestion
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posted 13 March 2006 10:01 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 


Does this sight make you break out in hives?

quote:
Beginning this week prospective immigrants to The Netherlands will be tested on their knowledge of Dutch life, including the country's attitude toward gays. 

Part of the test includes a DVD on The Netherlands and includes pictures of two men kissing and a same-sex wedding. The video also includes shots of immigrant slums in the major cities where many immigrants wind up living.

The video would be screened by an applicant prior to taking a written test that is conducted in the would-be immigrant's home country.

The government said students need 250 to 350 hours preparation before sitting for the exam.

It includes sections of domestic violence and female circumcision. Both of which are illegal in the country.

Also included are questions asking if gay marriage is legal. It is. And if a business can refuse service to gays. It could not.

The test is aimed mainly at people seeking entry to The Netherlands from the Middle East and Asia. People emigrating from other EU countries, the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Japan are exempt.

Islamic groups are slamming the exam calling it a pretext to discrimination. "It really is a provocation aimed to limit immigration. It has nothing to do with the rights of homosexuals. Even Dutch people don't want to see that," said Abdou Menebhi, the Moroccan-born director of Emcemo, an organisation that helps immigrants to settle.


I guess people "from other EU countries, the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Japan" are all gay friendly, and never perpetrate domestic violence....

On the question of 'queer friendliness', maybe they should offer the test to their own immigration minister, who sees nothing wrong with shipping queers back to places like Iran.

From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 13 March 2006 10:24 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Even Dutch people don't want to see that.

Is he referring to the two men kissing? If so, way to make the government's point.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 13 March 2006 10:25 AM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Does this sight make you break out in hives?

Not fair ... I was suffering a small hive attack just before I saw this message posted.

It does make me want to roll my eyes until I puke though.

Way to go ... use anti-discrimination laws as a racist tool. Amazing how adaptable unadaptable bigots can be when they want. If only they used their powers of "fuck up" for good.


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
voice of the damned
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posted 13 March 2006 11:43 AM      Profile for voice of the damned     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
deleted

[ 13 March 2006: Message edited by: voice of the damned ]


From: Asia | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Clog-boy
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posted 13 March 2006 08:27 PM      Profile for Clog-boy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Geez... Hadn't heard or read a thing about this...

My government never seizes to amaze me.

I mean, they'd better just sit tight till elections next year and do absolutely nothing!


From: Arnhem, The Netherlands | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 13 March 2006 08:30 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:

Is he referring to the two men kissing? If so, way to make the government's point.


Actually, not really.

He doesn't make the government's point at all, considering that there are lots of people from these countries:

quote:
People emigrating from other EU countries, the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Japan are exempt.

who might say the same thing.

I have no problem with this test and these questions if they are given to everyone. To only give them to people from Asia and Africa is discriminatory and racist.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
deBeauxOs
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posted 13 March 2006 08:37 PM      Profile for deBeauxOs     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
posted by Hephaestion: Does this sight make you break out in hives?
Wow! Is that hot or what!?!? Those two hunky guys smooching, that is so, hmmm, arousing.

What was your question again, Hephaestion?


From: missing in action | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Carter
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posted 14 March 2006 07:26 AM      Profile for Carter        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
I have no problem with this test and these questions if they are given to everyone. To only give them to people from Asia and Africa is discriminatory and racist.
Not only is it racist, it's so overtly and brazenly racist that it's sort of hard to take it seriously, even as something to be fought against. A far more interesting question would arise if the test were being given across the board, to all prospective immigrants. As I mentioned in the thread about a similar situation in Germany, I don't think that would make it any less racist, just a bit more subtle.

It's sort of hard to say without seeing the test itself, but let's assume for the sake of argument that it deals mostly, largely, or even just disproportionately with the rights of women and gays as opposed to other topics. That would mean that it was focusing specifically on areas in which Muslims are more likely to have reactionary or "un-Dutch" opinions rather than areas in which non-Muslims are more likely to have reactionary or "un-Dutch" opinions (such as prison sentences for drug use). And obviously you can forget about areas in which the Dutch themselves (or their government) are likely to have reactionary opinions (wars in the Middle East, etc.). It's like having a minimum height requirement to join the Police force: Choosing your criteria (a minimum height limit rather than a maximum weight limit) based on the specific ethnic group you want to exclude (Asians rather than whites).

Imagine if the Netherlands introduced an immigration test that dealt almost entirely with questions regarding the use of tax money to fund universal health care and other social programs. Even if given to everyone, such a test would still have the effect of disproportionately penalizing American applicants, because opposition to such programs is more widespread in the United States than in other countries. As an even more trite example, imagine if Denmark gave all prospective immigrants a test about Danish claims over Hans Island and other Arctic territories: Everybody would ace it except Canadians.

It's quite possible that a government could be genuinely unaware of its own cultural biases and institute such a test with an entirely benign, non-racist purpose. I would oppose it even then, because of the racially-discriminatory effect it would have. But in the Dutch case, no one is even trying to pretend that the test is anything other than a way of purposely targeting Muslim immigrants, especially certain "kinds" of Muslim immigrants with certain political views. And even if the "white country" exemptions were lifted tomorrow, that wouldn't change.

Even beyond the racism question, I don't think it's legitimate for a government to use its police power to prevent cross-border migration by people who it deems "un-Dutch" (or "un-Canadian" or whatever) at all. But that's a different issue.


From: Goin' Down the Road | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 14 March 2006 07:41 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I disagree. Hating gays is not the same thing as being short. I have no problem with countries telling prospective citizens that they're not allowed to mutilate their female children, they're not allowed to discriminate against gays, and they're going to have to get used to the sight of gays kissing and holding hands openly. It would affect fundamentalists from any religion just as much as it would affect fundamentalist Muslims. And I have no problem with that. If hating gays is part of your religion, or a strong part of the culture you come from (whether that's an religious theocracy like Iran, or a small town in the Southern US), then you're best off knowing what to expect, and the way you're expected to treat gays and lesbians in your new country.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Carter
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posted 14 March 2006 08:12 AM      Profile for Carter        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I disagree. Hating gays is not the same thing as being short.
But it is the same thing as thinking that it's morally acceptable to literally tear people's bodies apart and boil them alive as long as you're flying at a high enough altitude and don't need to do anything more hands-on than pressing a button. The difference is that the former view is more common among "them," while the latter view is more common among "us." I guess what I'm saying is that each group has important moral lessons to teach the other, and it will be harder for that to happen if they're forcibly prevented from living on the same territory.

quote:
I have no problem with countries telling prospective citizens that they're not allowed to mutilate their female children
Neither do I. I also don't have a problem with countries telling current citizens that. But I don't think either prospective or current citizens should be denaturalized, arrested, deported, and violently prevented from crossing an imaginary boundary just because they refuse to sign an advance pledge to that effect.

quote:
If hating gays is part of your religion, or a strong part of the culture you come from (whether that's an religious theocracy like Iran, or a small town in the Southern US)
Or the cabinet of the Canadian federal government... Would you really trust the Conservatives to design and implement a gay tolerance test? Hating gays is virtually their entire platform. A large proportion of both the Canadian and Dutch populations would presumably fail such a test, and I don't think it's fair to expect the immigrant population to meet standards that the native population doesn't. Human beings should be treated equally, regardless of abstractions like "citizenship." And since we obviously can't and shouldn't denaturalize people who are already citizens for failing a test, we shouldn't ban non-citizens for failing it either.

From: Goin' Down the Road | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 14 March 2006 08:50 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
They're not being forcibly prevented from living in Holland. They're just being told what the law is there. You don't have to drop your prejudices of gays in order to live in Holland (or Canada or anywhere else). You just have to not act on those prejudices by discriminating against them.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 14 March 2006 09:32 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't think that's what the picture really tests for.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 14 March 2006 12:02 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This is ridiculous. Even if that picture does make certain immigrants break out in hives, that is no reason not to admit them. There are a lot of people who are Homophobic and have never attacked gays. Just because you are prejudiced, doesn't mean you act on it.
From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 14 March 2006 12:11 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ya, what would be the problem with a homophobic judge, or a homophobic doctor? As long as they're not out there bashing, what's the problem?

The obvious problem with this is that it's only given to some applicants, not all. Other than that I don't see a problem with this. New immigrants may as well understand, right up front, that not all societies tolerate homophobia. Yes, you may see this photograph reenacted in real life! Often! And if you're going to go ballistic about it, maybe you should shop around for a less tolerant country.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
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posted 14 March 2006 12:45 PM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
So to which regressive country will homophobic native-born Dutch folks be deported?

This part I find baffling:

quote:
The video also includes shots of immigrant slums in the major cities where many immigrants wind up living.

"Oh, BTW, here's the shithole you and your kind will be forced to live in once you come to our enlightened, progressive country to scrub our toilets and take out our garbage. Got a problem?"


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 14 March 2006 12:50 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I guess in the interest of consistency, they'll also be returned to the country of their birth, or the country in which they were last resident.

Which would be the Netherlands. But at least it's inarguably consistent.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Clog-boy
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posted 14 March 2006 12:54 PM      Profile for Clog-boy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Just thought of this: How are you gonna measure someones response in real life by showing a picture..?
I mean, not even the most foolish bigot is stupid enough to attack a picture, with 2 men kissing, shown in a magazine or on a DVD. But seeing two guys kissing in a bar might very well turn that same bigot to bashing-mode in an instant...

And furthermore, when it is known among prospective immigrants that these pictures and questions about it will be presented to them: Who says the bigots among them won't be suppressing their homophobia during the exam, in order to achieve citizenship, eh..?
It's pretty easy to say you don't have anything against gays. Even bigots can make that statement, especially when they want to acquire a nationality.
But that doesn't prevent those bigots from being dragged from a bar for gay-bashing in the future. I don't think any aggressive bigot will remember the "promise" to respect gays, made during those exams, when he sees two guys kissing in a bar or at a busstop.

It might have been a nice gesture, if the exemption of certain countries wouldn't have made this entire deal pretty discriminating...


From: Arnhem, The Netherlands | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 14 March 2006 01:03 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I don't think any aggressive bigot will remember the "promise" to respect gays, made during those exams, when he sees two guys kissing in a bar or at a busstop.

Of course not. But it makes it difficult for said bigot to try and weasel out later on the grounds that he "had the right" or "didn't know" or "was practicing his faith" or whatever.

Obviously no test, administered to prospective immigrants, is going to rid the world of bigotry. But this seems worth a try.

Hell, if the NDP had such an exam, they wouldn't have suffered the embarrassment of Bev Desjarlais.

quote:
It might have been a nice gesture, if the exemption of certain countries wouldn't have made this entire deal pretty discriminating...

Exactly. I guess the assumption is that a prospective immigrant from Australia would "pass" with flying colours. So... why not put that to the test? Nothing to lose except a bigot.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
swirrlygrrl
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posted 14 March 2006 01:14 PM      Profile for swirrlygrrl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think the exercise is offensive and racist as it only applies to immigrants from certain countries.

However, I disagree that its a pointless excercise becase bigots are smart enough not to "attack" a picture, or to lie and say they aren't homophobic. Of course they are. And, if they are smart, they'll realize that they'll have to do that for the rest of their lives if they choose to emigrate to the Netherlands. Because, right off the bat, they are told, being a citizen here means these things: this is the flag, our primary export is (I dunno - wooden shoes or mayonnaise or ole-bollen or something ) and LGBT people have their human rights respected and are a welcomed part of our community. Don't expect any of these to change.

As well, most homophobes don't run out and beat the crap out of people at the bar or on the street. Same as most racists don't spit on every person of colour who walks by. They poison the world in ways that depend on structural violence, or making places unsafe spaces without outright physical threat or coercion. All of that creates an atmosphere where violence can be tolerated, or encouraged. So, I don't think that the goal of the "test" is to weed out those who will commit acts of violence agaisnt the LGBT community - rather, to let them know that the atmosphere will not be tolerated, as well as the acts of violence.

As for the pictures of the slums, again, I think that's a good thing. So many of the people who came to Canada with their bright, shiny credentials and the best education their country could offer, only to end up driving cabs and living with their families in small apartments in the bad part of town didn't know it might be like this. I think that, if people are given all the info they need (i.e. "many first generation immigrants end up living here."), they might make a different decision, or at least not feel like they were lied to when they were told about life in the perfect, first world society.


From: the bushes outside your house | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Clog-boy
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posted 14 March 2006 01:32 PM      Profile for Clog-boy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hmmm, hadn't thought of it that way, Magoo and swirrly, thanks!
Maybe the effort isn't as hollow as it seems. Any effort to educate people should be appreciated, I guess.


[Thread-drift] They're called Oliebollen [/Thread-drift]


From: Arnhem, The Netherlands | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 14 March 2006 02:16 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Tulips?

I haven't seen many real slums in the Netherlands - more the sad, desolate, soulless type of public housing estates that often ring major European cities, but from the outside nothing looked particularly run-down.

I agree that immigrants from ALL countries have to be informed of social values that they are expected to respect in the country they are moving to - including the social-democratic measures that USians might find more foreign.

I don't see how the fact that this is directed at immigrants and not native Dutchpersons is any more discriminatory than expecting newcomers not to have a serious criminal record - and I've been involved in immigrant and refugee issues for a long time.

As for white bigots, thinking of our old fiend Ernie Zündel returned to his Fatherland.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Makwa
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posted 14 March 2006 09:48 PM      Profile for Makwa   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Does this sight make you break out in hives?
Only from jealousy. Ah.. love.

From: Here at the glass - all the usual problems, the habitual farce | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged

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