quote:

---

Sarah Palin is a longterm member of a group called Feminists for Life, which is not opposed to birth control.

---

Hey Palin, guess what happens when you don't teach teenagers about birth control? Oops, never mind, guess you already know now!

And you know what? No, I don't think her family should be dragged into this, but let's get real. She and the Republicans have already dragged her family into it by selling her as a pro-life conservative who "walks the talk" by "choosing life" for her baby who has Downs Syndrome, as if I give a flying fuck.

Well, look how "walking the talk" on keeping children in ignorance of how to protect themselves against STIs and unplanned pregnancy has worked out.

[ 01 September 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]

[ 01 September 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]

excerpt:

Earlier this morning, FOX News’s Chad Pegram wrote , “It’s official. This political year just crossed over into the Twilight Zone.”

He didn’t know the half of it. This was before what some are calling “Baby-gate.”

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boom Boom:

If the rest of the election is going to be like the last couple days, it will make Cirque de Soleil look like “The NewsHour with Jim Lehrer.”

---

ETA Michelle is right, its a trap. A clever one that the Dems will fall into.

[ 01 September 2008: Message edited by: Bacchus ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bacchus:
ETA Michelle is right, its a trap. A clever one that the Dems will fall into.

---

I said it first!

quote:

---

What makes Palin such a cynical choice is that McCain doesn't know her and doesn't know what drives her. Until she was selected by the Karl Rove types running his campaign (like campaign manager and Rove protégé Steve Schmidt), McCain might not even have recognized her on the street. Instead, she's a category selection, made for the crassest reasons by the same kinds of political operatives who brought us George W. Bush.

Their motives are obvious: Palin is an energetic and attractive woman who just might pick up some disgruntled Hillary supporters. She's a westerner and a hunter who might appeal to rural voters. She might energize a previously tepid base of hard-shell religious conservatives through her opposition to abortion even in cases of rape or incest. These attributes may indeed prove her worth as a vote-getter. But they have no relation to Palin's fitness for the job.

---

quote:

---

Until she was selected by the Karl Rove types running his campaign (like campaign manager and Rove protégé Steve Schmidt)

---

If they're Karl Rove types, they're not listening to Rove himself.

Karl Rove talking about Obama's VP choice, before he chose Biden

quote:

---

"I think [Obama's] going to make an intensely political choice, not a governing choice," Rove said. "He's going to view this through the prism of a candidate, not through the prism of president; that is to say, he's going to pick somebody that he thinks will on the margin help him in a state like Indiana or Missouri or Virginia. He's not going to be thinking big and broad about the responsibilities of president."

Rove singled out Virginia governor Tim Kaine, also a Face The Nation guest, as an example of such a pick.

"With all due respect again to Governor Kaine, he's been a governor for three years, he's been able but undistinguished," Rove said. "I don't think people could really name a big, important thing that he's done. He was mayor of the 105th largest city in America."

---

The Guardian, 2nd Sept

quote:

---

Palin also evokes another comparison that American voters may well find even more comforting. When she stands next to the elder statesman McCain, the two of them look like the conventional newscasting team: the white-haired man and the pretty but sensible (never underestimate the power of a pair of glasses) younger woman. You expect them to start shuffling papers and bantering about the local baseball team any minute.

In fact, Palin was a newscaster back in the 80s, with the big hair and earrings to match. And while there is much to snigger over in the YouTube footage of the young Palin reading out basketball scores, it does show that she has spent nearly a lifetime in front of the camera, so although she has not had an enormous amount of political experience, she certainly has media experience and, in today's climate, that might well be just as important.

---

[ 02 September 2008: Message edited by: Willowdale Wizard ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Coyote:
I think that's right, a woman candidate was very calculated. And the liberal pundits who couldn't hide their guffaws at a woman who sounds like someone everybody knows just confirmed to a whole lot of the voting public that the "liberal elite" is nothing but a pack of frat boys with a fair-trade coffee fetish.

The same way the smug eye-rolls about the people that beat them - Reagan, Bush II - did nothing for the Dems, neither will this.

---

Pregnancy of Sarah Palin's daughter [and other 'stuff'] shakes up McCain campaign

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/top10/350

Some exerts:

quote:

---

Surely nothing says "reformer" like being under investigation for abuse of power - not bad for someone who's only been a governor for 20 months. Here's the scandal in a nutshell: Palin pressured Alaska's Public Safety Commissioner to fire state trooper Mike Wooten, because Wooten was engaged in a bitter custody battle with Palin's younger sister. The Public Safety Commissioner, Walt Monegan, refused to fire Wooten, so Palin fired Monegan.

After Monegan complained, Palin denied everything and told Alaska's KTVA that "No pressure was ever put on anybody to fire anybody." Whoops! Alaska's Attorney General investigated, and according to Josh Marshall at Talking Points Memo...

The Attorney General's investigation quickly turned up evidence that Palin's initial denials were false. Multiple members of her staff had raised Wooten's employment with Monegan. Indeed, the state police had a recording of one of her deputies pushing Monegan to fire Wooten. That evidence forced Palin to change her story. Palin said that this was the first she'd heard of it and insisted the deputy wasn't acting at her behest, even though the trascript of the recorded call clearly suggested that he was. (Hear the audio here.)

Just yesterday, Monegan gave an interview to the Washington Post in which he said that not only Palin's aides, but Palin's husband and Palin herself had repeatedly raised the Wooten issue with him and pressured him to fire him. And now he says he has emails that Palin sent him about the matter. (In an interesting sidelight, that may end up telling us a lot, Monegan says no one from the McCain campaign ever contacted him in the vetting process.)

---

On being supported by the Christian Coalition:

quote:

---

To be fair, the Christian Coalition actually has much better reasons for applauding Sarah Palin. For example - and this news is sure to win over plenty of former Hillary supporters - she's a religious extremist who believes that creationism should be taught in science class. According to the Anchorage Daily News back in 2006:

The volatile issue of teaching creation science in public schools popped up in the Alaska governor's race this week when Republican Sarah Palin said she thinks creationism should be taught alongside evolution in the state's public classrooms.

Palin was answering a question from the moderator near the conclusion of Wednesday night's televised debate on KAKM Channel 7 when she said, "Teach both. You know, don't be afraid of information. Healthy debate is so important, and it's so valuable in our schools. I am a proponent of teaching both."

Yes, what could be wrong with that? Don't be afraid of information. Let's have a healthy debate! I say tell the kids that maybe the earth is only 6,000 years old, that the first woman was created from a man's rib, and that dinosaur fossils were put there by God just to test people's faith. Then let them make up their own minds! We report, you decide.

---

Suing the Bush government for making Polar Bears an endangered species (wouldn't want them damn bears interfering with drilling for oil):

quote:

---

he American Petroleum Institute and four other business groups filed suit Thursday against Interior Secretary Dirk Kempthorne and U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service Director H. Dale Hall, joining Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin's administration in trying to reverse the listing of the polar bear as a threatened species.

On Aug. 4, the state of Alaska filed a lawsuit opposing the polar bear's listing, arguing that populations as a whole are stable and that melting sea ice does not pose an imminent threat to their survival.

(snip)

Kassie Siegel, climate program director for the Center for Biological Diversity, which originally petitioned to list the polar bear as an endangered species in 2005, decried the assertion in the Alaska suit that science does not prove polar bear populations are declining. The center is also suing the federal government, seeking to change the polar bear's official status from "threatened" to "endangered."

"The amazing thing about this litigation is that the governor of Alaska is so anti-environmental that she is suing the Bush administration over a claimed overabundance of protections for the polar bear," Siegel said. "It's just amazing."

---

Feminists For Life double speak:

quote:

---

...FFL doesn't just oppose abortion. FFL wants abortion to be illegal. All abortions, period, including those for rape, incest, health, major fetal defects and, although Foster resisted admitting this, even some abortions most doctors would say were necessary to save the woman's life. (Although FFL is not a Catholic organization, its rejection of therapeutic abortion follows Catholic doctrine.) FFL wants doctors who perform abortions to be punished, possibly with prison terms.

---

This woman is NOT FIT to run for VP (and possibly be president). I wish those men who are defending her treatment would think and understand the destruction she'll willingly put women through.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stargazer:
Palin is a horrible choice for women and if she can dish it out, she better learn to take it. I have no understanding why men on this board are sticking up for this anti-woman horror. More on the Palin record here:

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/top10/350

Some exerts:

This woman is NOT FIT to run for VP (and possibly be president). I wish those men who are defending her treatment would think and understand the destruction she'll willingly put women through.

Palin is a horrible choice, a nasty woman, and there is no reason to defend her. She would certainly not defend true feminists. Horrible woman.

---

What I despise however, is the party that fancies itself the protector of women's rights scarcely disguising their glee at an excuse to unleash misogynistic diatribes against the enemy. All the complaints and objections to the way Clinton was treated clearly have nothing to do with feminist principles and everything to do with what has become of electoral politics in the United States. That it's a man's game and we will hate any woman who tries to say otherwise. Not for her policies, but for her gender.

quote:

---

Suing the Bush government for making Polar Bears an endangered species (wouldn't want them damn bears interfering with drilling for oil):

quote: the American Petroleum Institute and four other business groups filed suit Thursday against Interior Secretary Dirk Kempthorne and U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service Director H. Dale Hall, joining Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin's administration in trying to reverse the listing of the polar bear as a threatened species.

On Aug. 4, the state of Alaska filed a lawsuit opposing the polar bear's listing, arguing that populations as a whole are stable and that melting sea ice does not pose an imminent threat to their survival.

(snip)

Kassie Siegel, climate program director for the Center for Biological Diversity, which originally petitioned to list the polar bear as an endangered species in 2005, decried the assertion in the Alaska suit that science does not prove polar bear populations are declining. The center is also suing the federal government, seeking to change the polar bear's official status from "threatened" to "endangered."

"The amazing thing about this litigation is that the governor of Alaska is so anti-environmental that she is suing the Bush administration over a claimed overabundance of protections for the polar bear," Siegel said. "It's just amazing."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stargazer:
Palin is a horrible choice for women and if she can dish it out, she better learn to take it. I have no understanding why men on this board are sticking up for this anti-woman horror.

---

When Obama said, family's off limits: Obama's smartest choice is to take the high road. But to what Stargazer said, I would add that Palin's daughter's involvement in the controversy around Palin is not a get-out-of-hypocrisy-free card.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sineed:
Agreed.

When Obama said, family's off limits: Obama's smartest choice is to take the high road. But to what Stargazer said, I would add that Palin's daughter's involvement in the controversy around Palin is not a get-out-of-hypocrisy-free card.

We couldn't ask for a higher profile example of the drawbacks to the fundie position on birth control/sex ed than Palin's daughter's unwed teenage pregnancy (despite mom's assurances that the girl is going to marry "Levy"). We can point to this without attacking the girl's character. It's not her fault she was born to a woman who is against birth control and sex ed for teens.

---

quote:

---

Only the likes of National Enquirer reguarly stooped to reporting on Chelsea Clinton and the Bush twins.

---

quote:

---

"Why is Chelsea Clinton so ugly?
Because her father is Janet Reno."

---

As such, I do not believe her actions in respect to her doing this, are off limits, but the children themselves are.

In that regards it says a lot about the values of Palin and I think that is fair play. Not prying into her child's life, but how Palin herself has reacted to the news and the kind of things she supported that help create these kinds of situations for other families like keeping teenagers in the dark about birth control and their bodies. This is a little window into the type of person she is, and frankly the window is grimy and frosted over with hypocrisy.

[ 02 September 2008: Message edited by: Bookish Agrarian ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bookish Agrarian:
What I can't figure out is why no one is questioning what seems to be almost a forced marraige between a 17 year old and her boyfriend (I don't know his age). This is right out of the Victorian era in my books. It is also extreme sexism to suggest a woman needs a man to validate a pregnancy. I find it really, really creepy.

In that regards it says a lot about the values of Palin and I think that is fair play. Not prying into her child's life, but how Palin herself has reacted to the news and the kind of things she supported that help create these kinds of situations for other families like keeping teenagers in the dark about birth control and their bodies. This is a little window into the type of person she is, and frankly the window is grimy and frosted over with hypocrisy.

[ 02 September 2008: Message edited by: Bookish Agrarian ]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Catchfire:
Why do we care at all what this young woman does with her life?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by 500_Apples:

This is a great opportunity for Palin to come out and say that maybe abstinence-only sex education needs to be reconsidered. I predict she won't take it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sineed:
Boom boom posted a wonderful series of quotes higher in the thread showing how the Repuglies REALLY didn't do their homework on this one, and to boom boom I say and I would ask everyone: what are the chances they're going to withdraw Palin? It's kind of a damned if you do damned if you don't scenario, but at what point would McCain decide to cut his losses?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sineed:
Boom boom posted a wonderful series of quotes higher in the thread showing how the Repuglies REALLY didn't do their homework on this one, and to boom boom I say and I would ask everyone: what are the chances they're going to withdraw Palin? It's kind of a damned if you do damned if you don't scenario, but at what point would McCain decide to cut his losses?

---

I think it would have to get much, much worse before he would even think of doing it, or before Palin herself would want to withdraw. The fundies are too orgasmic right now. I predict she goes through and stays on the ticket.

A good point made last night by David Gergin on CNN - everyone is going on about the need for her to perform well at the convention. That's actually easy (ish) - you've got great speechwriters, teleprompters, adoring fundies. The real test will come when she is facing the media. She might die the death of a thousand cuts, rather than have a huge blow-out.

[ 02 September 2008: Message edited by: pookie ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by 500_Apples
Is there any precedent for that?

---

quote:

---

what are the chances they're going to withdraw Palin? It's kind of a damned if you do damned if you don't scenario, but at what point would McCain decide to cut his losses?

---

Well, I'm paraphrasing someone else by saying this, but perhaps it's all part of a larger plan. Come up with a 'great' candidate (Palin) to appease the hard right wing of the Republican party (Knowing ahead of time the controversies that are coming down the road.) Palin can now withdraw in honour, saying something along the lines of not having the family time etc.. that she needs to do justice to the Veep's job.
McCain then says to the hard right - 'go pound sand with your great ideas - I chose a great candidate that you liked, and look where that got me!' So I'm going to choose my own candidate..and don't ask me for any more favours.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bookish Agrarian:
What I can't figure out is why no one is questioning what seems to be almost a forced marraige between a 17 year old and her boyfriend (I don't know his age). This is right out of the Victorian era in my books.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michelle:

Oh, I know! I meant to mention that when I saw that on the tail end of their announcement!

---

quote:

---

I'm sure that between the two families, there are plenty of shotguns.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Catchfire:
Why do we care at all what this young woman does with her life?

---

Exactly. She is 17 and may be 18 by the time the time the baby is born. That is the exact same age that Obama's mother was when she gave birth to him. If she went to Alaskan public school, she would have received sex-ed.

We don't know (and I hope we never know!) what the situation is. Maybe they used a condom and it broke. Maybe she is on the pill and forgot to take it. Maybe she is crazy evangelical and against birth control. Maybe she wanted to get pregnant. Maybe she grew up in a cave and had no idea that birth control even existed, is forbidden from having an abortion and being forced to marry a boy she does not want to marry.

"You'll rot in hell before you'll get an abortion.". I can just hear it.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ghislaine:
If she went to Alaskan public school, she would have received sex-ed.

---

That said, I agree with, for the most part, Stargazer. In particular this:

quote:

---

This kid had no choice, thanks to her mom.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bookish Agrarian:
What I can't figure out is why no one is questioning what seems to be almost a forced marraige between a 17 year old and her boyfriend (I don't know his age).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Catchfire:
Well, if you think that Jon Stewart and Bill Maher don't wield any authority among American liberals, you are deluded. But I also mentioned how the terms of debate around the elections have shifted from experience, policy and even 'change' to who's fucking, marrying and giving birth to whom since a woman entered the mix. And this has been done by everybody, from bloggers to editorials to news coverage, etc.

But I don't want to contribute to that anymore myself. If you want to start a thread about sexism and Sarah Palin, go right ahead.

---

Thank you, I would argue quite strongly that Maher and Stewart are not in authority, but instead have a following. Nor am I sure Stewart at least is a liberal.

quote:

---

Ghislaine: She should be attacked based on her ideas, rather than anything else.

---

[ 02 September 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stargazer:
Why should we care? Hello??? This is a 17 year old girl, whose life will forever be a battle due to having a child so young.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boom Boom:

According to this Republican, who would discuss internal campaign strategizing only on condition of anonymity, the McCain team used little more than a Google Internet search as part of a rushed effort to review Palin's potential pitfalls.

---

"August 29, 2008

Statement of NOW PAC Chair Kim Gandy on the Selection of Sarah Palin as John McCain's Vice Presidential Pick

Sen. John McCain's choice of Alaska governor Sarah Palin as his running mate is a cynical effort to appeal to disappointed Hillary Clinton voters and get them to vote, ultimately, against their own self-interest...." National Organization of Women

===
A dissenting view from George Lakoff who predictably sees Palin as essentially a smart choice, diverting "attention from difficult realities to powerful symbolism.":

"The Democratic responses so far reflect external realities: she is inexperienced, knowing little or nothing about foreign policy or national issues; she is really an anti-feminist, wanting the government to enter women's lives to block abortion, but not wanting the government to guarantee equal pay for equal work, or provide adequate child health coverage, or child care, or early childhood education; she shills for the oil and gas industry on drilling; she denies the scientific truths of global warming and evolution; she misuses her political authority; she opposes sex education and her daughter is pregnant; and, rather than being a maverick, she is on the whole a radical right-wing ideologue.

All true, so far as we can tell.

But such truths may nonetheless be largely irrelevant to this campaign. That is the lesson Democrats must learn. They must learn the reality of the political mind...."
web page

[ 02 September 2008: Message edited by: contrarianna ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by remind:
A real life Brie Vandecamp?

---

[ 02 September 2008: Message edited by: remind ]

quote:

---

And personally I could give a rat's ass what sexism is heaped on her.

---

So sexism is bad when it happens us and our allies but good or ok when it happens to someone we dont like? I know you didnt mean that but thats how it comes across and it is by such comments that the left looks hypocritical and people think the right aint so bad.

And for about the 5th time, she won't be getting any of the women's votes, that they were hoping for, and the only votes that she will get, will be the sexist one's where the men want to be "white knights' and rush to her rescue, from those nasty other women and progressives.

[ 02 September 2008: Message edited by: remind ]

quote:

---

Republican National Committee co-chair Jo
Ann Davidson mistakenly referred to the party's presumptive vice-presidential candidate, Sarah Palin, as "Sarah Pawlenty" at the Republican National Convention Tuesday.

Palin, the governor of Alaska, was a surprise choice to join Sen. John McCain on the Republican ticket. Minnesota Gov. Tim Pawlenty had been considered one of the front-runners for the slot.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boom Boom:
I have the funny feeling that McCain's goose is cooked.

---

Can you imagine a Librarian not cooperating in the banning of books.

[ 02 September 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by martin dufresne:
Wait 'til they find out about Palin's father:
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:7ssCr41iMkRSQM:http://www.krinein.co m/img_fiches/125/palin_250.jpg

---

Yeah, the frenzy will continue right until the Dems find out they just blew the election.

quote:

---

This kid had no choice, thanks to her mom.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by remind:
And for about the 5th time, she won't be getting any of the women's votes, that they were hoping for

---

1. Book banning

2. Using elected power to intimidate public employees

3. Alaska should separate from the USA

4. Destroying parks for oil exploration (well they might)

5. No sex ed in schools

6. Forced teen age marriages, and the prospective father who says: "I don't want kids".

I hope you are wrong.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sven:
Time will tell. But, women voters may just be the ones to put McCain-Palin in the Oval Office...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by remind:
I always love how men believe that they know how women are going to vote.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by martin dufresne:
Pretty vacant comment.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bookish Agrarian:
The latest from the CNN ticker

If this was a novel I think we would all call this foreshadowing of the climactic disaster to come.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sven:
Time will tell. But, women voters may just be the ones to put McCain-Palin in the Oval Office...

---

For those who are challenged with basic reading skills:

I did not say:

"Women will put McCain-Palin in the Oval Office."

I did not even say:

"Women are likely to put McCain-Palin in the Oval Office."

Instead, I said that women may put McCain-Palin in the Oval Office.

quote:

---

Originally posted by martin dufresne:
Oh, why don't you sit on it, Sven... or take it up with a professional if you have that much misogynist bile to vent.

---

What the fuck are you talking about?

quote:

---

For those who are challenged with basic reading skills:

I did not say:

"Women will put McCain-Palin in the Oval Office."

I did not even say:

"Women are likely to put McCain-Palin in the Oval Office."

Instead, I said that women may put McCain-Palin in the Oval Office.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by remind:
And BTW, your last comment negates your earlier one, where you were professing you were jesting about women voting for Palin.

---

You would do well to take a basic reading comprehension course, remind.

Here's my comment I was jesting about: "I always love how women believe that they know how men are going to vote." That was in response to your moronic statement that said: "I always love how men believe that they know how women are going to vote."

quote:

---

Originally posted by remind:
Okay Sven, what suppporting evidence makes you think that women may vote for Palin? Other than your male smarts in respect to women?

---

That's laughable, remind. My "male smarts in respect to women"!! It's about as good are your "female smarts in respect to men" which you constantly regale us with here.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sven:

What the fuck are you talking about?

Women are one of a handful of key voting groups in the upcoming election. It's entirely possible that a sufficient number of them will vote for the McCain-Palin ticket to put McCain in the oval office.

---

Well, there are women in the red states as well... Some of whom may identify more strongly with Palin than they would with Clinton. More importantly, they identify more with hockey-mom, pro-life Palin than with multiple-house-owning, trophy-wife-marrying McCain. Choosing Palin was a hasty, cynical choice in his bid for the womens' votes.

quote:

---

Originally posted by martin dufresne:
If I say Sven may be an imbecile troll, I'm sure you will object even if the statement is speculative.

---

Frankly, I don't give a shit what you think about me, martin.

quote:

---

Originally posted by martin dufresne:
No single group "puts" someone in power. This kind of selective vision is just a cheap trick used by pseudo-pundits to slag a group they want to exert "the height of irony" against.

---

I'm not "slagging" anyone.

I think it would be fair to say that blue-collar "Reagan Democrats" were a principal reason for Reagan being elected (and re-elected). It's a pretty well-accepted fact. And, it's (dare I say it?) ironic because they likely voted against their own economic interests.

quote:

---

Originally posted by martin dufresne:
If I say Sven may be an imbecile troll, I'm sure you will object even if the statement is speculative.
No single group "puts" someone in power. This kind of selective vision is just a cheap trick used by pseudo-pundits to slag a group they want to exert "the height of irony" against.

---

Thanks for pointing this out Martin.

This combined with personal attacks when asked for actual substantive information to hold such an opinion, about female voters, when coming from a man, clearly indicates the propaganda being used to try to frame conceptions around a notion that; "women voters will vote for Palin".

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sven:
That was in response to your moronic statement that said: "I always love how men believe that they know how women are going to vote."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sven:
I'm not "slagging" anyone.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by remind:
"women voters will vote for Palin"

---

Learn to read, will you, remind? The quality of this board would be vastly improved if you would undertake that simple endeavor.

How many times do I have to tell you that I haven't said "women voters will vote for Palin"?

quote:

---

Originally posted by remind:
Oh no, not at all.

---

When I said, "I'm not "slagging" anyone", that was clearly in context of a group (women, blue-collar workers, etc.).

quote:

---

I think it would be fair to say that blue-collar "Reagan Democrats" were a principal reason for Reagan being elected (and re-elected). It's a pretty well-accepted fact. And, it's (dare I say it?) ironic because they likely voted against their own economic interests.

Is that "slagging" blue-collar workers who voted for Reagan? No. It's an observation.

---

I agree with Sven here.

I'm a Tommy Douglas socialist, and I find the voting tendancies of the working-class on this continent pretty disheartening. Then again, I can't blame them, since the "progressives" seem to go out of their way to make the working class look like a bunch of ignorant yahoos who shouldn't be allowed to vote.

Where are the lefty gunslingers who like to knock back a few beers, go to car and air shows, and cheer at football games?

Moreover, deflecting away from Palin and what she stands for, always works in a pinch too, eh?!

Do you support Palin, and the things she stands for:

1. Book banning

2. Using elected power to intimidate public employees

3. Alaska should separate from the USA

4. Destroying parks for oil exploration (well they might)

5. No sex ed in schools

6. Forced teen age marriages, and the prospective father who says: "I don't want kids".

quote:

---

Originally posted by remind:
you are tring to infer that women will vote for Palin

---

No, I'm not. Get a fucking clue (along with a dictionary), will ya?

Some women will vote for Palin. Will enough women vote for Palin to put her within a heartbeat of the president? It may happen or it may not happen. Only time will tell.

IIRC, the "soccer mom" demographic was one that the Republican party courted somewhat successfully in order to obtain those victories. Soccer moms, last I checked, are women.

quote:

---

Republicans stressed Palin’s conservative family values in announcing her selection as John McCain’s running mate on Friday. Frank says the recent disclosure about her daughter blunts conservative claims that liberalism harms family life.

"Apparently she’s a great favorite with the conservative social movement," Frank said. "They have said that it’s liberalism and liberals who have undermined families — same-sex marriage has been a problem, they don’t want gay people to adopt ... This helps undercut those arguments."

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On the one hand, I echo everyone who says that Bristol Palin is going to have a tough enough time as a young mother in the media spotlight, but on the other hand, given that the 'Moral Majority'-social conservative-'family values' crowd that the Palin selection was supposed to appease see nothing wrong with sticking their noses into people's private sexual lives, spewing hate against homosexuals, telling women what they can and cannot do with their bodies, and harping that sex education leads to promiscuity, Representative Frank's position is hard to argue with on some levels.

[ 02 September 2008: Message edited by: ghoris ]

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Well, that is where we differ timebandit, I do not believe they put GWB in the White House, either time, as I believe the elections were not quite kosher.

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Timebandit: Soccer moms, last I checked, are women.

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[ 02 September 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]

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WASILLA, Alaska - Sarah Palin’s controversy-splashed arrival on the national stage continued as her own mother-in-law revealed she doesn’t know who she’ll vote for in the election.

Faye Palin admitted she’s a Barack Obama fan and wasn’t sure what the mother of her five grandchildren adds to McCain’s campaign.

“I’m not sure what she brings to the ticket other than she’s a woman and a conservative. Well, she’s a better speaker than McCain,” Faye Palin told the New York Daily News.

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In fact, I've been checking out DailyKos and Huffpo over the last few days, and they have been completely cognizant of the fact that Bristol is off-limits. The salacious details have been hard to avoid as they are so wacked in a soap opera way (even the father is a young up-and-coming self-proclaimed "redneck" nutjob). But the blogs have been relatively circumspect of the frenzy despite a few comments directly related to the schadenfreund surrounding Palin's outrageous hypocrisy.

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Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin, the Republican vice-presidential nominee who revealed Monday that her 17-year-old daughter is pregnant, earlier this year used her line-item veto to slash funding for a state program benefiting teen mothers in need of a place to live.

After the legislature passed a spending bill in April, Palin went through the measure reducing and eliminating funds for programs she opposed. Inking her initials on the legislation -- "SP" -- Palin reduced funding for Covenant House Alaska by more than 20 percent, cutting funds from $5 million to $3.9 million. Covenant House is a mix of programs and shelters for troubled youths, including Passage House, which is a transitional home for teenage mothers.

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The video, first reported by the liberal blog HuffingtonPost.com, is from a June Palin speech to the graduating class of commission students at Palin's former church in Wasilla, Alaska. While describing her family, Palin told students about her oldest son, 19-year-old Track, who is set to be deployed to Iraq this month with the U.S. Army. She urged students to pray “that our leaders -- that our national leaders -- are sending [soldiers] out on a task that is from God.”

She added, “That's what we have to make sure that we are praying for: that there is a plan and that that plan is God's plan.”

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And if that wasn't enough God has taken interest in not only who wins the big game, but in where a pipeline goes, no really he does.

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“I can do my part in working really, really hard to get a natural gas pipeline, about a $30 billion project that's going to create a lot of jobs for Alaska. … [but] I think God's will has to be done in unifying people and companies to get that gas line built, so pray for that,” she said. “I can do my job there in developing our natural resources, in doing things like getting the roads paved and making sure our troopers have their cop cars and their uniforms and their guns, and making sure our public schools are funded. But really that stuff doesn't do any good if the people of Alaska's hearts aren't right with God.”

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I also feel sorry for her boyfriend. Not just having to become a parent but having to get married because your mother-in-law-to-be must look good as a candidate. Imagine the pressure.

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Well, I do too Doug, despite the fact that he (according to his MySpace page) is a proud redneck (and not the cool farmpunk type redneck) and a complete ass. He clearly said he does not want babies, and here he is, into a forced parenthood and marriage.

Remind, I don't think Sven used the right approach (or the right words) but I do believe the Palin choice will swing some women voters to McCain. The difference between my position and Sven's is that the only women I can see voting for McCain/Palin are those already more inclined to vote nasty Rethug.

I also object to the use of these words:

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Time will tell. But, women voters may just be the ones to put McCain-Palin in the Oval Office...

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Gov. Sarah Palin has said she decided to carry to term her child who has Down syndrome. Of her daughter’s premarital pregnancy, she also says, “We’re proud of Bristol’s decision to have her baby.”

But how can one claim to be anti-choice and twice speak about “decisions”? A true pro-life candidate must believe that there is no choice but to bear the child, and that the law should bar any such decisions to the contrary.

Indeed, if the governor learned of her own child’s Down syndrome from prenatal testing, is it not hypocrisy to ever have such a test since the fetus has a right to life regardless?

Perhaps Governor Palin is, in fact, a proponent of choice after all.

Lawrence Rosen
Princeton, N.J.

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David Brooks, NY Times

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The Palin pick allows McCain to run the way he wants to — not as the old goat running against the fresh upstart, but as the crusader for virtue against the forces of selfishness. It allows him to make cleaning out the Augean stables of Washington the major issue of his campaign.

So my worries about Palin are not (primarily) about her lack of experience ... My worry about Palin is that she shares McCain’s primary weakness — that she has a tendency to substitute a moral philosophy for a political philosophy.

Most issues are not confrontations between virtue and vice. Most problems — the ones Barack Obama is sure to focus on like health care reform and economic anxiety — are the product of complex conditions. They require trade-offs and policy expertise. They are not solvable through the mere assertion of sterling character ... If you are going to lead a vast administration as president, it really helps to have a clearly defined governing philosophy, a conscious sense of what government should and shouldn’t do, a set of communicable priorities.

If McCain is elected, he will face conditions tailor-made to foster disorder. He will be leading a divided and philosophically exhausted party. There simply aren’t enough Republican experts left to staff an administration, so he will have to throw together a hodgepodge with independents and Democrats. He will confront Democratic majorities that will be enraged and recriminatory.

On top of these conditions, he will have his own freewheeling qualities: a restless, thrill-seeking personality, a tendency to personalize issues, a tendency to lead life as a string of virtuous crusades.

He really needs someone to impose a policy structure on his moral intuitions. He needs a very senior person who can organize a vast administration and insist that he tame his lone-pilot tendencies and work through the established corridors — the National Security Council, the Domestic Policy Council. He needs a near-equal who can turn his instincts, which are great, into a doctrine that everybody else can predict and understand.

Rob Portman or Bob Gates wouldn’t have been politically exciting, but they are capable of performing those tasks. Palin, for all her gifts, is not. She underlines McCain’s strength without compensating for his weaknesses.

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[ 03 September 2008: Message edited by: jrose ]