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Author Topic: Support prostitution?
Yoko Oikawa
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posted 30 July 2007 11:13 AM      Profile for Yoko Oikawa     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I was wondering why many people who have the consciousness for women’s issues and stand up against the inequality of women tolerate prostitution. Moreover, they support prostitution and care about the health of the women in sex trading. I found there is a feeling that supporting prostitutes is supporting their human rights and prostitution will never be disappeared. Prostitution is very risky to get HIV, STD although all the care of the prevention, and tend to have abuses and violence even it would have had intervention of some kinds of authorities. I discourage to have prostitution rather than to support it because of the respect for women’s physical nature. Everybody loves own body so that it is not easy to exploit it. There is something to make a decision to force them to do this business and that is the significant issue of prostitution. Without thinking about this issue that is poverty and inequality of women’s rights we should not say prostitution would never end.
From: North Vancouver | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged
jrose
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posted 30 July 2007 11:21 AM      Profile for jrose     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Moreover, they support prostitution and care about the health of the women in sex trading.

Shouldn’t we all care about the health of all women, regardless of their profession? There are a number of past threads on babble that deal with this topic, that might help educate you on this issue. Just use the search function located at the top of the page!


From: Ottawa | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
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posted 30 July 2007 11:21 AM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I had a problem with some of the english so I can't tell if we're on the same page or not.

As far as I'm concerned, every person has the right to do to their body whatever they chose. This includes the right to do what some people may consider unhealthy. To cross that line and begin prohibiting what one can do with their body is a very slippery slope at which you will find a government willing to punish you for something that does not concern them.


From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 30 July 2007 11:56 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by HeywoodFloyd:
To cross that line and begin prohibiting what one can do with their body is a very slippery slope at which you will find a government willing to punish you for something that does not concern them.

That's deep. You must be drawing upon wisdom from that bottomless well of conservative thought on feminist matters again.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
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posted 30 July 2007 12:00 PM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm not sure what the point of that post was Fidel but it sure didn't have anything to do with the thread. Can you edit it to toss in some IM stats to make it not just completely but absolutely irrelevant?

Mind not trolling 'round these parts? Thanks so very much.


From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 30 July 2007 12:03 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ca va bien, muchacha ?
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stargazer
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posted 30 July 2007 01:47 PM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Odd that you had a problem with the language. I had no problem understanding what she was saying.


Yoko, as jrose said, there are many topics on Babble dealing with the issue of prostitution. Some of them are very interesting with many different people taking part in the threads - police officers, sex workers, social workers, etc.

Prostitution is an uncomfortable issue to discuss, especially because at the core the issue is autonomy.


From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
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posted 30 July 2007 01:50 PM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
My bad. When I re-read it I totally got it.
From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
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posted 30 July 2007 02:01 PM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stargazer:
Prostitution is an uncomfortable issue to discuss, especially because at the core the issue is autonomy.

This definitely one issue in which the risks to society at large have to be weighed with an eye to the long term implications.

In this case, we have to weigh the disease risks to the participants and their impacts on the healthcare system AND the violence risks against the loss of autonomy of self.

I'll always come down on the side of Autonomy.


From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 30 July 2007 02:29 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
pfff!
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
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posted 30 July 2007 02:32 PM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Dude. Seriously. What is your problem?

Do you have anything to contribute at all?


From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 30 July 2007 03:00 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Yoko Oikawa:
Everybody loves own body so that it is not easy to exploit it. There is something to make a decision to force them to do this business and that is the significant issue of prostitution. Without thinking about this issue that is poverty and inequality of women’s rights we should not say prostitution would never end.

I agree with this. People and children have been selling themselves since before Dickensian times in London, and the core issue is poverty. Every person should own the basic right to exist without having to resort to such spirit-killing practices as selling their bodies to be exploited by complete strangers. I think it must a difficult, soul-destroying decision to sell tenderness for the ability to pay rent, put food on the table and send kids to school with full stomachs and clothes on their backs.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 30 July 2007 05:31 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
I agree with this. People and children have been selling themselves since before Dickensian times in London, and the core issue is poverty.

Sex for sale is the old profession, where you get Dickens time from i do not know.

quote:
Every person should own the basic right to exist without having to resort to such spirit-killing practices as selling their bodies to be exploited by complete strangers.

Excuse me, but people's bodies are exploited no matter the profession, you can work in a lumber mill or factory for 20-30 bucks and hour and you are still being exploited for your body's use. Only you are paid less than sexual prostitution.

And a good many prostitutes who take their profession seriously would NOT agree with your summation of "spirit-killing" activity.

quote:
I think it must a difficult, soul-destroying decision to sell tenderness for the ability to pay rent, put food on the table and send kids to school with full stomachs and clothes on their backs.

Do not confuse tenderness with sex thanks. Making love is much different that selling sexual skill. There is not 1 thing wrong with selling sexual skill and it is no different that one selling any other kind of skill one has.

The problems come into effect when pimps and sex to support addictions come into play. And of course not safe spaces to conduct the trade.


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 30 July 2007 06:24 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
Sex for sale is the old profession, where you get Dickens time from i do not know.

It was merely to illustrate a point about poverty and prostitution. In Dickens' London, children dredged the Thames for lumps of coal fallen from barges. They sold ham sandwiches, and they sold themselves to upstanding citizens and pillars of London society. For some, prostitution is something they learn to do before they become fully developed adults.

In Mel Hurtig's book, "Pay the Rent or Feed the Kids", he recounts a discreet interview with municipal cops in "a major Canadian city." Apparently they had a child younger than 14 years held in a safe house for her own protection. Another was hoarding frozen peas under her bed at night. Our child poverty rates across Canada are a national disgrace in a comparison of richest countries.

quote:
Do not confuse tenderness with sex thanks. Making love is much different that selling sexual skill. There is not 1 thing wrong with selling sexual skill and it is no different that one selling any other kind of skill one has.

I was trying to make a point not to confuse tenderness with sex. I realize some people prefer selling sex to other forms of day labour, but not all people. It's about paying the rent and putting food on the table for most prostitutes by what I can tell. Not all of us think that sexual intimacy is something that young women, girls or boys should have to resort to in order to pay exorbitant rent, or pay for childcare while working at any paying job, or in order to avoid struggling at or anywhere below the poverty line in general. There are so many of Canada's most vulnerable citizens who need not be living in poverty if Ottawa and provinces were to deliver as progressive a policies as exist in other advanced democracies today. Lots of people work shit jobs, and not all prostitutes ply that trade because they love their work, is what I should have said.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
jrose
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posted 31 July 2007 05:55 AM      Profile for jrose     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Please, watch the personal attacks in this thread.

Here is an article from the Tyee.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged
Caissa
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posted 31 July 2007 06:00 AM      Profile for Caissa     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm currently reading this book; I strongly recommend it.

Dr. Leslie Jeffrey, Department of History and Politics, in collaboration with Dr. Gayle MacDonald from St. Thomas University have had their book "Sex Workers in the Maritimes Talk Back" published by UBC Press.


From: Saint John | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
jrose
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posted 31 July 2007 06:25 AM      Profile for jrose     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Sex Workers in the Maritimes Talk Back

Sounds very interesting, caissa!


From: Ottawa | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 31 July 2007 07:29 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
It's about paying the rent and putting food on the table for most prostitutes by what I can tell.

Exactly, the same as any other job then eh?! You are imposing a stigma upon those who sell sexual skills.

quote:
Not all of us think that sexual intimacy is something that young women, girls or boys should have to resort to in order to pay exorbitant rent, or pay for childcare while working at any paying job, or in order to avoid struggling at or anywhere below the poverty line in general.

I agree with your poverty points and the issues of poverty and those affected, Fidel, but this thread is not about poverty and the 2 should not be conflated.

quote:
Lots of people work shit jobs, and not all prostitutes ply that trade because they love their work, is what I should have said.

Just as not all people love their shit jobs Fidel. People need to get entrenched stigmas out of their ideology so that prostitution can become a regulated trade the same as any other.


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
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posted 31 July 2007 08:43 AM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by remind:

Just as not all people love their shit jobs Fidel. People need to get entrenched stigmas out of their ideology so that prostitution can become a regulated trade the same as any other.


That's exactly the point. There is nothing wrong, in principle, with prostitution.


From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 31 July 2007 08:53 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
But there is something wrong with grinding poverty linked to child prostitution right here in Canada's major and medium size cities, right Heywood?.

Or do you, by logical extension of your above POV, support every undeveloped person's right to autonomy and to sell their innocence to 50 and 60 year-old men for cash under the table, food or clothing and maybe even shelter ?.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 31 July 2007 08:54 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by HeywoodFloyd:
That's exactly the point. There is nothing wrong, in principle, with prostitution.


Of course not, everyone does it daily!

The only thing is they attached a stigma to the sexual kind for numerous reasons, not least of which so that there would be a hierarchy of sorts entrenched.


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
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posted 31 July 2007 08:58 AM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Absolutely. That and a misplace puritanism ethos when it comes to sex.

I mean, we only want to have sex with them. We still want to be in control. God forbid the providers ever get control.


From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 31 July 2007 09:01 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well if I ever discovered anyone taking advantage of a child, they'd be in a heap o trouble.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 31 July 2007 09:01 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
But there is something wrong with grinding poverty linked to child prostitution right here in Canada's major and medium size cities, right Heywood?.

Okay, I am so not into 2 men have a pissing contest in the feminist forum.

Poverty needs to be eliminated, I have not noticed heywood denying that. However, sex as a trade will not stop if poverty is eliminated or decreased. It is a viable trade.
Now child prostitution is much a signal of poverty, as it is of greed, or pedeophilia.


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 31 July 2007 09:06 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by remind:

Okay, I am so not into 2 men have a pissing contest in the feminist forum.

Poverty needs to be eliminated,


That's all from me in this, the feminist forum. Carry on.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
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posted 31 July 2007 09:12 AM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by remind:

Okay, I am so not into 2 men have a pissing contest in the feminist forum.


Don't glare at me. I wasn't doing any of that.


From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
jrose
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posted 31 July 2007 09:53 AM      Profile for jrose     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Okay, I am so not into 2 men have a pissing contest in the feminist forum.

Poverty needs to be eliminated, I have not noticed heywood denying that. However, sex as a trade will not stop if poverty is eliminated or decreased. It is a viable trade.
Now child prostitution is much a signal of poverty, as it is of greed, or pedeophilia.


Thanks, remind.

Can you all please remember what forum you are in, and refrain from both personal attacks and provoking each other. Thank you.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
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posted 31 July 2007 09:57 AM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
AARGH! I'm not taking any blame for this.
From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
jrose
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posted 31 July 2007 10:18 AM      Profile for jrose     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm not blaming anyone, for anything. I’m only suggesting that we all respect this forum, and stay clear of thread drifts.
From: Ottawa | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 31 July 2007 10:36 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Here is the first sentence of the opening post:

quote:
I was wondering why many people who have the consciousness for women’s issues and stand up against the inequality of women tolerate prostitution.

From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
arborman
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posted 31 July 2007 11:17 AM      Profile for arborman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I certainly don't like prostitution. It depresses me when I see the women in my neighbourhood working the streets. And I simply do not understand the motivation of men who hire them.

That said, my personal feelings are irrelevant, and I would not dream of telling or suggesting to a woman or man that they should not or could not be a prostitute (or other sex worker). It's just not my, nor anyone else's, job to tell grown adults what to do with their bodies, in any circumstances.

With that in mind, I support almost all efforts to make the sex trade safer and as non-exploitive as possible. I particularly support initiatives that are built and run by current and former practitioners (like PACE and Pivot Legal Society.

I think we have a long way to go in Canada before the sex trade is what it should be - a simple and safe transaction between social and economic equals. I don't really know how to get there.


From: I'm a solipsist - isn't everyone? | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stargazer
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posted 31 July 2007 12:41 PM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I thought both Heywood and Fidel had great points and I personally welcomed both their thoughts on this issue in the feminist forum.
From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
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posted 31 July 2007 01:33 PM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by remind:

However, sex as a trade will not stop if poverty is eliminated or decreased. It is a viable trade.

Of course it is a viable trade. Men (and women) use it for multitudes of reasons. Combating loneliness, sexual frustration, a sense of power, or a sense of submission (depending on what you're into). And frankly, it's a valid trade.


From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 31 July 2007 03:33 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
More wisdom from the well.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
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posted 31 July 2007 03:39 PM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Dude. What the fuck? Seriously.
From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 31 July 2007 04:19 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Mind the filthy language. This is a public forum, dude.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
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posted 31 July 2007 04:33 PM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm pretty sure that this is what Remind was talking about earlier. So, ladies, I apologize on behalf of the men who are not trolling the FF and trying to start a pissing match.
From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 31 July 2007 05:18 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by HeywoodFloyd:
I'm pretty sure that this is what Remind was talking about earlier. So, ladies, I apologize on behalf of the men who are not trolling the FF and trying to start a pissing match.

Yes heywood, it was, though I welcome fidel's salient points, he need not mix them with baiting for a flame war regarding your points heywood. I had thought he understood that and bowed out of this thread based upon that earlier activity.


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
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posted 31 July 2007 08:32 PM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Fidel had some very salient points regarding poverty and prostitution and I didn't disagree with any of them.
From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 31 July 2007 08:59 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes, I agree with observation heywood.
From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 31 July 2007 09:07 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm sorry Heywood. I suppose I was looking for a sanity check is all.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
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posted 31 July 2007 09:30 PM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
For what Dude. What was I saying that sounded insane?
From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
spillunk
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posted 31 July 2007 10:35 PM      Profile for spillunk     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by remind:

People need to get entrenched stigmas out of their ideology so that prostitution can become a regulated trade the same as any other.


From: cavescavescaves! | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged
JaneKolber
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posted 09 August 2007 03:50 PM      Profile for JaneKolber        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
My dad always told me that prostitution was the oldest profession around.

I think a woman should have the right to choose what she does with her body.


From: BC | Registered: Aug 2007  |  IP: Logged
bigcitygal
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posted 09 August 2007 05:45 PM      Profile for bigcitygal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Just getting a troll off TAT.
From: It's difficult to work in a group when you're omnipotent - Q | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
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posted 09 August 2007 05:57 PM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
TAT? whazzat mean?
From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
writer
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posted 09 August 2007 07:13 PM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
"Today's Active Topics"
From: tentative | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 09 August 2007 07:15 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm sorry, but someone with a babbler number lower than mine isn't allowed to ask newbie questions, Tommy.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Solid_Choke
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posted 15 August 2007 09:21 PM      Profile for Solid_Choke     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by HeywoodFloyd:
I had a problem with some of the english so I can't tell if we're on the same page or not.

As far as I'm concerned, every person has the right to do to their body whatever they chose. This includes the right to do what some people may consider unhealthy. To cross that line and begin prohibiting what one can do with their body is a very slippery slope at which you will find a government willing to punish you for something that does not concern them.



What about the right to use your body to work in a dangerous factory or for very low wages? Are these also rights that every human should be entitled to if they so choose?

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