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Topic: The Milosovic poisoned thread
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Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790
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posted 13 March 2006 03:57 AM
Report: Milosevic's Blood Had Drug Traces quote: Dutch doctors conducted an autopsy Sunday on Milosevic's remains, but the results were not expected to be released until Monday.The tribunal spokeswoman said she could not comment on the news report. "We don't have any information. We simply have to wait for the results" of the autopsy report, said Alexandra Milenov. Doctors found traces of the drug when they were searching for an answer to why Milosevic's medication for high blood pressure was not working, the report said. Milosevic was examined last January, according to his legal aide, Zdenko Tomanovic. The NOS report did not identify the drug found in Milosevic's blood "in a test done in recent months," but said it could have had a "neutralizing effect" on his other medications.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003
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Clog-boy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11061
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posted 13 March 2006 06:30 AM
In the blood of Milosevic traces have been found of rifampicine, a drug against leprosy and tuberculosis. Rifampicine counteracted the medicines for high blood pressure of Milosevic. This has been confirmed by the Dutch toxicologist D.R.A. Uges, who examined the blood of Milosevic. Uges performed the examination at the request of head-pharmacist of The Hague hospitals, D.J. Touw. Touw was called in by the Tribunal to find out why Milosevic' bloodpressure remained high, despite the fact he was receiving medicined to lower that bloodpressure. Touw concluded in a report in January that either Milosevic wasn't taking his medicines, or he was reciving counteracting medicines. Prolonged exposure to high bloodpressure can result in a heart attack, like the one Milosvic suffered. One of the lawyers of Milosevic, Tomanovic, didn't trust the outcome and asked for a contra-expertise (second opinion?). The pharmacist then made the proposal to examine the blood again, now for substances that break down other substances. From that 2nd examination, performed by Uges, came the result of rifampicine two weeks ago.Uges suspects Milosevic was purposeful taking the drugs himself, to be able to say the Dutch medical staff was inadequate or incapable of treating him. His purpose would have been to travel to Russia. He had previously requested for such a transfer to Russia, which had been denied by the Tribunal. As for the funeral: His widow, Mira Markovic, wants to come to the Netherlands to pick up his body, but there still is an international arrest warrant out against her. She and her daughter have expressed the desire to bury Milosvic in Serbia. The presidential bureau has announced Milosevic won't be receiving a state funeral, a disappointment for the Milosevic-supporters. [ 13 March 2006: Message edited by: Clog-boy ]
From: Arnhem, The Netherlands | Registered: Nov 2005
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Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790
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posted 13 March 2006 07:23 AM
quote: Originally posted by Vansterdam Kid: Maybe he poisoned himself? It's probably a better way to go then by being stabbed, shot, or hung. Also since we're speculating, it has the added bonus of making it look like someone else could've ordered his death too. While its true that he would mention some unpleasnt information that the Brits and Americans don't want aired, I very much doubt he'd want to face justice for his role in all of this. Not to mention the fact that most people in the rest of the west wouldn't believe him anyways, so he'd just be seen to be making a spectcle of himself. [ 13 March 2006: Message edited by: Vansterdam Kid ]
Actually this is not so far fetched. Though the dying part would not be part of the caper. The idea would be for him to have a medical crisis and then be moved to Russia where he would never be returned to trial because of ongoing health problems ala "Jack Straw lets Pinochet of the hook in Britian, for health reasons." ETA: I realize now someone else has come up with this idea, already, as in Clog-boys post. [ 13 March 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003
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Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790
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posted 13 March 2006 08:01 AM
Hague prosecutor steps in the doo doo.Milosevic 'may have killed himself' quote: "He could have done it as a last act of defiance towards us. Perhaps he did commit suicide," chief prosecutor Carla Del Ponte said in an interview in the Italian newspaper La Repubblica.
I really can't imagine anything more fucking offensive for the Hague prosecutor to say at this point in time. She goes on: quote: "It's odd, although naturally it is possible, that he died unexpectedly without the doctors noticing that his health had suddenly worsened," she said.She said it was possible Milosevic might have killed himself because he had used up all but 40 of the 360 hours he had been allotted to defend himself against the charges of genocide, other war crimes and crimes against humanity he faced over the Balkan wars of the 1990s.
Her animus is blatantly obvious that it just cast even more doubt upon the whole shady business. Whatever happend to "No comment." Serbs will read this with a very jaundiced eye.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003
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Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790
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posted 13 March 2006 08:06 AM
Talk about conspiracy theory! Is this the kind of prejudicial speculation one expects from a "special UN prosecutor?"Its one thing to think it, but -- please -- a little propriety is in order. How about mumbling something about an "inquirey" and then begging off further answers. But no! Blah blah blah blah. What a mouth piece. Above all this "defence" will no doubt fuel the conspiracy theorists, and it does seem overly defensive given its source. [ 13 March 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003
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Vansterdam Kid
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5474
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posted 14 March 2006 01:57 AM
quote: Originally posted by Cueball: [QB]Actually this is not so far fetched. Though the dying part would not be part of the caper. The idea would be for him to have a medical crisis and then be moved to Russia where he would never be returned to trial because of ongoing health problems ala "Jack Straw lets Pinochet of the hook in Britian, for health reasons." ETA: I realize now someone else has come up with this idea, already, as in Clog-boys post.
And why would he be moved to Russia? He's already in the Netherlands, surely they have adquate medical facilities.
From: bleh.... | Registered: Apr 2004
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Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790
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posted 15 March 2006 03:40 AM
quote: Originally posted by Vansterdam Kid:
And why would he be moved to Russia? He's already in the Netherlands, surely they have adquate medical facilities.
Did you read what I wrote? I just agreed with you that he likely poisined himself. My point was that the purpose would be to removed to Russia, something that he and his associates had been asking for, on the basis that he would be better taken care of there. It seems much more likely a scenario. Urges trhe Dutch medical examiner proposed such an idea himself. Del Ponte is conspiracy wacko. [ 15 March 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003
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Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790
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posted 15 March 2006 04:27 AM
Ok. The west doesn't listen to Putin. He has no influence. There is no phone that connects the Oval Office and Kremlin. The west is just way too moral to ever consider the interplay of power politics.Its not about nuking. Its about the power that is inherent in that. Besides, it does't matter whether or not the Russians were going to go all out for Milosovic, what matters is that he thought they might help, as he has friends there etcetera etcetera. And in fact they did help, and they asked that he be delivered there and they said they would guarantee his return once he was fit for trial. I really dont see Milosovic as the "Good Day to Die" type. A calculated risk sounds more like his style -- he has made many of those. Frankly, your scenario gives him too much credit. [ 15 March 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003
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Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790
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posted 15 March 2006 05:07 AM
I think you should study global politics if you don't think that Russia is taken seriously anymore. It may be the case that thay are not taken seriously in the way they were when it was the Svoiet Union. But the fact remains that Russia is still the 2nd most powerful country in the world.The fact that the Hague did not agree is possibly even a sign that Russia is not taken as seriously as it was. Then again, it may also be a sign that Russia only issued pro-formaa support for the idea, and the fact is that Milosovic isn't taken that seriously in Russia anymore. I should think they would think he was a liability, really, but that as Serbia is nominally a client of theirs they have to make the gesture. But Milosovic has no way of knowing any of that, and so they concoct this plan. But you see in order for the plan to work, he must percipitate a crisis in his health, prior to the point at which he makes the request of Russia to be his guardian. See, he must get sick first, and then make the request. It would look kind of odd if he was making this request before he got sick don't you think? So then, he creates the crisis in his health, send out the feelers to Russia, Russia agrees in principle, the Hague refuses but issue was still being discussed at the time of he died. "If I get really bad then perhaps they will relent in the end," he thinks -- how can he know, it is a risk. It seems more likely to me, [ 15 March 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003
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Vansterdam Kid
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5474
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posted 15 March 2006 05:49 AM
We can disagree about the geopolitical strength of Russia all we want, I just think its obvious that they aren't very poweful anymore judging by how all those little states around them are "daring" to be independent of them in real terms. Not to mention all the serious problems they have with breakway states. While in military terms your right, I think in political and economic terms China is second now. As for Russia even making the bid, on behalf of Serbia, I wouldn't think that Serbia would nessecrilly want them to. Surely the current leaders of Serbia want to dissasosate with the Milosevic reigeme. And I'm sure Serbia would rather integrate into the EU more so than the Russian sphere of influence, after all why back a looser? So yeah, supposing your scenario, I would agree it wouldn't make sense for him to risk all those things to kill himself. Of course again this assumes some grand strategy that he planned.Anyways continuing on the conspiracy tangent. I don't understand whats so great about assisinating Milosevic. I mean yeah say the NATO countries wanted it done, but wouldn't it be a big risk if they got caught? Wouldn't it just make more sense to allow him to say whatever he wanted and then just say things like "oh really, you can't believe that dictator can you? He lies constantly." As such I don't think they'd need to go through that much effort to discredit him, by permenently silencing him. [ 15 March 2006: Message edited by: Vansterdam Kid ]
From: bleh.... | Registered: Apr 2004
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S1m0n
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11427
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posted 15 March 2006 12:54 PM
quote: Originally posted by Cueball: I really can't imagine anything more fucking offensive for the Hague prosecutor to say at this point in time.
What is particular is wrong with any of this? Yeah, she's not falling over herself to say what a wonderful guy he was and how shocked she is at his untimely death. His death wasn't untimely; it was not nearly timely enough. If he hoisted himself with his own petard trying to escape from justice, that's worth a sneer or two.
From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005
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Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790
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posted 15 March 2006 08:03 PM
The prosecutor "speculating" in this manner is highly improper and slanderous. What proof does she have? Could she read Milosovic's mind?It is perfectly fine for you and I or people authorized to investigate the death to speculate on possible moitivations or reasons as to why this happened, but this case (the case of Milosovic's death) is not her case. Plain and simple, not her case, and she is using her offices in a manner to bias an investigation to which at best she could be considered a witness. [ 15 March 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003
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Vansterdam Kid
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5474
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posted 15 March 2006 08:41 PM
quote: Originally posted by Cueball: Where did I say any westerners were part of a plot to kill Milosovic? You are barking up the wrong tree.I said, I thought it was likely that Milosovic was taking drugs to counteract the drugs for his hypertension, as you suggested. I then differed with you on the reason for this, namely he intended to create a medical crisis so that he could get himself shipped to Russia, you maintain that he was Klingon to the end and was trying to kill himself to send up the Hague.
You can be really annoying at times, I mean jeesh we're not even having a serious argument and you're being a prick. I didn't say that you said westerners were involved in a plot to kill Milosevic. I said I don't think they were and asked a few questions as to whether or not it would even make sense for them to be. I've already pointed out where and why I think your scenarios don't make any sense and where they do make sense, etc, normal discussion stuff. It has nothing to do with my last little comment. As for the Klingonness, that's just a stupid view of my position on your part. People kill themselves all the time, so as I said before, perhaps he just wanted to kill himself for the sake of it. Or it was an accident. Or whatever. After all this is a speculation thread. So it's not that important. [ 15 March 2006: Message edited by: Vansterdam Kid ]
From: bleh.... | Registered: Apr 2004
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Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790
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posted 15 March 2006 08:44 PM
quote: Originally posted by Vansterdam Kid:Anyways continuing on the conspiracy tangent. I don't understand whats so great about assisinating Milosevic. I mean yeah say the NATO countries wanted it done, but wouldn't it be a big risk if they got caught? Wouldn't it just make more sense to allow him to say whatever he wanted and then just say things like "oh really, you can't believe that dictator can you? He lies constantly." As such I don't think they'd need to go through that much effort to discredit him, by permenently silencing him. [ 15 March 2006: Message edited by: Vansterdam Kid ]
I guess I misconstrued the meaning of the highlighted phrase.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003
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Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790
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posted 15 March 2006 10:04 PM
Milosovic's son is not a representative of the United Nations legal establishment -- the United Nations which is meant to act as an impartial agent.Del Ponte, it seems to me, is perfectly within her rights to speak on the issue of the cases which she has been charged with prosecuting, but she has no legal status as far as the Milosovic death investigation is concerned, and in fact it seems to me that by making such speculation from within the legal establishment regarding an investigation being carried out by others on the staff she is attempting to bias another investigation that she has no official relationship. She should keep her mouth shut. The Milosovic family is under no such obligation of maintaining an appearance of impartiallity. [ 15 March 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]
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