I am not saying it was right to take the soldiers. But how can it be right for Israel to kidnap the government of the Palestinians, arresting hundreds of elected officials? Why does no media station see this? Even the threads on rabble talk about what Hezbollah did in their title, not the fact that Israel is bombing the airport in Lebanon...a sovereign nation (in Beirut), and that they have killed 50 people. Has the NDP spoken out about this? What about anti-war groups? I am so frustrated and angry that no one in the West seems to care about all the innocent civilians of Lebanon, who are all now targets:

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Israel’s army chief Brig.-Gen. Dan Halutz warned that “nothing is safe” in Lebanon and said Beirut itself — particularly Hezbollah offices and residences — would be a target.

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Indeed, it is reasonable to argue that in the last couple of weeks Hamas has embarked on what one Israeli strategist before the 1982 invasion of Lebanon called 'a peace offensive' referring to the PLO. And the analogy is powerful and ominous: when 'threatened' by a Hamas ceasefire (which, like the PLO's previous one of 1981-82, also lasted over a year) and real peace, Israel bombs its way out of a diplomatic settlement. 2006 may well be a repetition of 1982 in this regard. And if Israel in 1982 used the attempted assassination of Israeli ambassador to London Argov by Palestinian groups not signed on to the PLO ceasefire as an excuse to put into motion a pre-planned invasion of Lebanon in order to crush the PLO, then the capture of soldier Gilad Shalit in 2006 has also been exploited in order to unleash a re-invasion of Gaza planned and hinted at months in advance of the Keren Shalom military operation. Confronted with real peace, Israel responds by waging war: and the 'permanent war society' is actively reproduced. As a result, a permanent peace society is as rejected and as illusive as ever.

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Southern Lebanon was not occupied. Hizbollah terrorists invaded Israeli territory (this after Israel pulled out of all Lebanese territory over 5 years ago)kidnapped Israeli soldiers and killed others.

On the other hand, this may just be the inevitable consequence of unrestrained self-righteousness as has been the case with so many religous and political groups that are so obsessed with their own beliefs and agendas that they cannot see past their own prejudices and petty mean-spiritedness.

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Petsy:It seems to me that when your sovereign territory is attacked a country has the absolute right to protect its people and its land.

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There's no right, absolute or otherwise, to kill civilians. It fact, blatent disregard for the well being of civilians is a war crime.

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Originally posted by 500_Apples:
While I disagree with Israel's reaction to the Gilad Shalit issue, the capture of 2 israeli soldiers was done by the government of Lebanon and that is certainly an act of war. Israel had no choice.

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Actually, Hezbollah is NOT the government of Lebanon. So, no Lebanon did not capture two Israeli soldiers. And, actually murdering 50 Lebanese civilians, bombing their airport and their army base - hm, somehow I doubt that is going to lead to Hezbollah releasing the soldiers.

No, 500Apples, Hizbollah is not the government of Lebanon. See how the media spin confuses people?
You may not know that Lebanese government is a weak and diverse coalition of various militias, Hizbollah included. An attempt to disarm Hizbollah would mean open civil war. Sure, what Hezbollah did was wrong and at an inappropriate time. But Israel's response is a lot more inappropriate. Why is the whole sovereign country under attack if they weren't the attackers? Did anyone think of Lebanese civilians?

This is from the Star:

"Israel’s army chief Brig. Gen. Dan Halutz warned that “nothing is safe” in Lebanon and said Beirut itself — particularly Hezbollah offices and residences — would be a target. Maj. Gen. Udi Adam said Israel had hit hundreds of targets and hadn’t ruled out sending in ground troops.

Hezbollah fired rockets into northern Israeli towns and said it was using a new missile that appeared to be more advanced than previous models. One Israeli was killed and more than 35 injured.

The militant group also said it would rocket Haifa, a key port and the country’s third-largest city, if Israel hit Beirut, a strike that would be the deepest ever into Israel by the guerrillas — some 18 miles. An Israeli intelligence official said Hezbollah missiles could reach Haifa.

Two days of Israeli bombings, the heaviest air campaign against its neighbor in 24 years, had killed 47 Lebanese and wounded 103, Health Minister Mohammed Jawad Khalife said. Besides the Israeli civilian, eight Israeli soldiers had also been killed.

Both sides played a high stakes game following the capture of the two soldiers by Hezbollah: Israel sought to end Hezbollah’s presence on the border, while the guerrillas insisted on trading the captured soldiers for Arab prisoners."

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[ 13 July 2006: Message edited by: BetterRed ]

Israel is one of the biggest military powers on earth. It is a nuclear weapons power, for example, and has refused to join the non-proliferation treaty. Israel is an occupying power. It has all sorts of duties, codified into international law, towards the people who live in the territory it occupies. And so on. Ignoring the "facts on the ground" in this mis-match sidesteps the whole issue of how the situation is worsening: the occupation continues, the settlements continue to expand, the Apartheid wall is constructed, more time passes for people that have been driven from their homes, etc., etc..

Killing unaffiliated civilians has never, to my knowledge, won any kind of diplomatic or military victory. At least, not without killing every last one of them - something I hope Israel doesn't plan to do.

Hezbollah answers to Iran far more than to the Lebanese government. Bombing other civilians in Lebanon insane, and going to lead to escalation across the region.

The problem is that if Israel does manage to escalate the violence, it doesn't happen in a vacuum. I have no idea why Hezbollah performed their attack, unless it is part of some Iranian plan to ratchet up the tension and take the focus off of Iran (possible).

But the region is very unstable. Israel, as the most powerful military in the region (other than the US) really needs to keep cool and NOT start an open war.

Were the US, as the powerful close neighbour to Canada, to start bombing us as a retaliation for the actions of a small faction in Canada, I don't know what I'd think. If those bombs killed my friends or family, I wouldn't give a shit what the geopolitical reasons were, I'd be radicalized and joining the nearest armed force.

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I have no idea why Hezbollah performed their attack, unless it is part of some Iranian plan to ratchet up the tension and take the focus off of Iran (possible).

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I would surmise because Israel's overblown and stupid strategy in Gaza has left it without wiggle room.

If an Israeli soldier is kidnapped, Israel must respond with all guns ablazing and to a degree completely disproportionate to the act that was committed.

Next, I would guess, the strategy for the Palestinians is to capture an Israeli soldier in the West Bank or on holiday in the Riviera.

Israel will either bankrupt itself and destroy any edge it held in the international propaganda wars or it will admit its overreaction has made things worse, withdraw, negotiate a prisoner swap, and lose face, or all will return to their corners without any resolution and the fate of the soldiers still unsettled.

History, I think, will show that Israel's mad response to a single soldier being captured will be a turning point in middle east politics.

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Originally posted by pencil-skirt:
I feel like the whole world's media are just ignoring the fact that in retribution for the acts of a few Palestinians (who captured the first Israeli Soldier) and a few Hesbollah members in Lebanon, Israel is bombing, and bombing, and killing so many innocent people.

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So, crying foul seems a bit childish. But nevertheless, I don't know that anyone is condoning anyone's actions. I know I wasn't. I offered an analysis that I think will hold up with hindsight. Israel has painted herself into a corner by going all ape shit in Gaza.

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
Well, you know, Israel has invaded the West Bank, Gaza, and Lebanon at will and killed and brutalized civilians. You might have missed it, but Israel has been occupying the Palestinian land for decades.

So, crying foul seems a bit childish. But nevertheless, I don't know that anyone is condoning anyone's actions. I know I wasn't. I offered an analysis that I think will hold up with hindsight. Israel has painted herself into a corner by going all ape shit in Gaza.

Israel has basically advertized that she will go to great expense to recover captured soldiers, who could be recovered through negotiations, through sheer, over-the-top force. Israeli has exposed an open and sensitive nerve.

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Actually with all due respect the issue is more complex. Missiles have been fired at will from Gaza into Israel AND an invasion killed several and kidnapped another soldier. Historically these kidnapped individuals were either tortured, mutilated or just killed and never returned. Accordingly Israel's objectives were to stop (Hamas sanctioned) missiles and recover an individual whom they are sworn to protect from historic atrocities.
Is it an over reaction? Probably but I like this analogy, stones are thrown by a hoard of "defenceless" kids that injure an adult. The adult pursues the kids and the the whole world says "hey you're over-reacting."

The present situation in the Middle east cannot be looked at through today's context (a vacuum) but historically. Many here on Babble have found much ammunition to construct history in a way that is favourable to the Palestinian side and vice versa.

I say the only real solution here is NOT blame but for everyone to mediate a peaceful resolution. If it cannot be done by the parties then the "world" (i.e. UN) must intervene. So far all the UN has done is play politics with its condemnations.
It's time for it to put its money where its mouth is....(but then again those who speak the loudest often are the smallest financial funders.)

Here's examples which can only lead to to more conflict:
Missiles Fired From Lebanon Kill Israelis

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In Nahariya, rocket fire killed a woman in her home, and wounded another 29 people, including a number of children. Most of the casualties were lightly hurt; one person sustained serious wounds. The woman killed in the Nahariya attacks was identified as 40-year-old Monica Zeidman (Lehrer).

On Thursday evening, Hezbollah renewed its bombardment of the northern coastal town of Nahariya. Some of the rockets hit a group of journalists working in Nahariya, wounding at least one person.

Four rockets hit Safed again Thursday evening, killing one person and wounding 11. Three of the wounded were in serious condition including two children.

At least 11 people were also wounded in Safed earlier Thursday by a barrage of Katyusha rockets fired from Lebanon. Of the wounded, one person was seriously hurt, another sustained moderate wounds, two people were lightly hurt and seven were treated for shock.

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[ 13 July 2006: Message edited by: Peech ]

Perhaps the difference is the billions in military aid the Israelis receive. They have helicopter gunships, F16s, tanks and drones that blow people up etc. Hamas and Hizbullah don't seem to have the same resources. Looks a bit of a mismatch.

[ 13 July 2006: Message edited by: eau ]

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I believe the ratio of dead Palestinians to dead Israelis is presently running about 3 dead Palestinians for each dead Israeli averaged out over the conflict.

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Are you refering to Israel, the Palestinians, ... or both?

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Originally posted by eau:
BBC reported this morning that 93 Palestinians had died in the past couple of weeks. I believe the ratio of dead Palestinians to dead Israelis is presently running about 3 dead Palestinians for each dead Israeli averaged out over the conflict.

Perhaps the difference is the billions in military aid the Israelis receive. They have helicopter gunships, F16s, tanks and drones that blow people up etc. Hamas and Hizbullah don't seem to have the same resources. Looks a bit of a mismatch.

[ 13 July 2006: Message edited by: eau ]

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Originally posted by pencil-skirt:
Has the NDP spoken out about this? What about anti-war groups?

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Not to my knowledge, and I'd be surprised if it was at all vocal on this issue. The NDP position is basically the same as that of the Liberal Party - pro-Israel as long as Israel isn't too excessive, in which they'd support some meaningless condemnation at the UN. At best we'll see a condemnation along the lines of the Globe editorial last week - which blamed the situation primarily on militants in Gaza but agreeing that Israel was a bit excessive

The NDP has long had an influential "progressive Zionist" element and completely glosses over the issue of occupation, and instead says we need to have a "balanced" position.

On the Israel issue, the NDP is hopeless and lacks any principles whatsoever. Remember what a scandal it was when Svend spoke out about what's happening in Palestine?

As for antiwar groups, in North America at least they tend to avoid the Israel issue like the plague, on the supposed grounds that it would alienate progressive Jews.

[ 13 July 2006: Message edited by: Lord Palmerston ]

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Originally posted by Petsy:
So according to what Im reading here Israel should do nothing and allow both Hamas and Hizbollah to invade their sovereign territory at will and kidnap or murder soldiers.

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HALIFAX – NDP Foreign Affairs and International Development Critic Alexa McDonough (Halifax) today urged Prime Minister Harper to call on the United States to urge Israel to halt its escalating Gaza offensive.

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Russia and Chechyna is another example. I think at the time of the Russian school incident that it was mentioned there were 250,000 dead Chechynan children, despite the Russian overwhelming superiority. I wish it wasn't so.

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Actually with all due respect the issue is more complex.

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The Israelis do not chase stone throwing children, they shoot them. The Israelis have been occupying Palestinian land for decades, stealing their water, bulldozing their trees and are now starving them.

There is no comparison.

They call it a kidnapping. I would like to see the same people suggest that the Canadian air force should have bombed the Montreal airport when Pierre Laporte was kidnapped. And these are soldiers no less.

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Originally posted by John K:
The NDP issued the following statement yesterday:

http://www.ndp.ca/page/3908

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This is a little less tepid than I expected, but it still applies the so-called "balanced" position and could just as easily have come from the Liberal Party. As for Harper's "silence" for 2 weeks, where was the NDP?

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Originally posted by Lord Palmerston:

This is a little less tepid than I expected, but it still applies the so-called "balanced" position and could just as easily have come from the Liberal Party. As for Harper's "silence" for 2 weeks, where was the NDP?

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PHOTOS

[ 13 July 2006: Message edited by: unionist ]

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Originally posted by Lord Palmerston:

This is a little less tepid than I expected, but it still applies the so-called "balanced" position and could just as easily have come from the Liberal Party. As for Harper's "silence" for 2 weeks, where was the NDP?

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How about here?

"Intensifying hardship of Gaza families will not resolve latest crisis: NDP

Fri 30 Jun 2006

HALIFAX – NDP Foreign Affairs and International Development Critic Alexa McDonough (Halifax) issued the following statement today:

The NDP regrets the kidnapping of Israeli soldier Corporal Gilad Shalit and urges his kidnappers to return him immediately to his family, if any progress towards lasting peace is to be made.

Restraint is crucial at this critical time.

Tragically, Friday’s Israeli air strikes on Gaza have only intensified civilian hardships in Gaza. With only ten days of wheat flour remaining and water supplies in serious jeopardy, the global community must act on the UN World Food Programme’s predictions of the worsening humanitarian crisis in Gaza, by launching a concerted diplomatic effort to bring a negotiated end to this crisis.

The NDP urges Israel to halt further offensive measures targeting Palestinian civilians. Thursday’s capture of Palestinian Parliamentarians further limits the Palestinian Authority’s already constrained capacity to function as a responsible, duly elected government, particularly during this time when Israel has cut all food and fuel supplies to Gaza’s 1.4 million people and withheld Palestinians’ tax revenues.

The NDP welcomes Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak’s diplomatic efforts and urges the Canadian government to end its disgraceful silence and step forward and engage diplomatically to help bring an end to the kidnapping, and help bring relief to Palestinian civilians."

http://www.ndp.ca/page/3897

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Again, to answer the original post, the NDP is pretty hopeless and lacks any principles when it comes to Israel.

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Originally posted by Cueball:

They call it a kidnapping. I would like to see the same people suggest that the Canadian air force should have bombed the Montreal airport when Pierre Laporte was kidnapped. And these are soldiers no less.

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Wrong analogy. kidnappers of Pierre Laporte were not members of a faction of Quebec government or a political party in power. His kidnapping was a terrorist act against the Quebec government, not an act of war between two governments.

In this case, both Hezbollah and Hamas are members of the their respective governments in Lebanon and Palestinian authority. Hezbollah has four ministers in Lebanese government. Actions of these groups could be legitimately attributed to those governments unless they take actions to correct it, which they decided not to. This is not about ethnicity.

In your example if a Quebec government or political party in power had ordered kidnapping or assassination of Canadian politicians, police, soldiers or even civilians, then yes I'd have supported bombing Quebec city.

[ 13 July 2006: Message edited by: ghlobe ]

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Originally posted by ghlobe:
[QB]
In your example if a Quebec government or political party in power had ordered kidnapping or assassination of Canadian politicians, police, soldiers or even civilians, then yes I'd have supported bombing Quebec city.

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Originally posted by Drinkmore:

Really?

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Waht is Israel doing?

I don't know? Defending its citizens, maybe?

As for "disproportionate", it's the Middle East. Everything there involving politics is disproportionate.

The situation will never be solved because too many militant groups from this side or that side or any other of the obscure 49 sides involved don't want it too.

Who cares if 90% of the the people just want to get on with their lives?

Settlers will continue settling in the West Bank, the Hamas will continue its anti-Semitic incitement and rocket attacks, Hezbollah (following orders from its Syrian and Iranian secret service masters) will continue its colonization of Lebanon and its incitement of violence against Israeli civilians, Fatah will continue being ineffectual, the corrupt Arab world despots will continue wringing their hands, the European Union will continue being irrelevant, the Israeli government will continue trying to prove it's macho enough for whatever it is they have to be macho about...

It's the Middle East, it's supposed to be an effing unsolvable mess. How are foreign corrspondents supposed to make their careers without a mess in the Middle East?

[ 14 July 2006: Message edited by: Critical Mass2 ]

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:
an occupying power. .

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[ 14 July 2006: Message edited by: TemporalHominid ]

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Originally posted by Petsy:
So according to what Im reading here Israel should do nothing and allow both Hamas and Hizbollah to invade their sovereign territory at will and kidnap or murder soldiers.

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Err, no, it should have used a brain, or, since I realise that these are in short supply in Middle East, perhaps a few neurons or so.

When a paramilitary band of rag-tag "guerrilas" attacks you, you go after them, not the whole population of the area.

But of course if your real goal is to destroy whatever inconvenient for you political force or government of the region you want, then of course you will claim that these "terrorists" are somehow affiliated (probably by virtue of buying their pita bread from the same supplier) with that inconvenient for you entity and proceed to escalate the incident in order to cause as much damage to civilian infrastructure as possible in (vain) hopes of destablising or fragmenting that political force or government.

A sane, reasonable response to Hezbollah would be an attempt to coordinate, or at least create a pretense of such coordination or cooperation, with the supposedly democratically elected government of Lebanon. Since they are officially condemning the Hezbollah action, they would be hard pressed to manage to weasel out from at least pretending to be cooperating if a request had come down from Israel for the Lebanese to assist in recovery of these kidnapped soldiers. In effect it would likely result in Isreali army doing the actual serching and what not but Hezbollah would be in a very tight spot politically and instead of wanton bombing of apartament buildings it would be a police action, and with some dimplomatic skill and arm twisting applied to Lebanon from various quarters maybe even with Lebanese police acting as a front.

Of course a similiar strategy could have been applied to Hamas and the original kidnapping, as it is unlikely that Hamas government would be able to credibly excuse such a thing politically and lose completely whatever remains of its already dismal support abroad. A shrewd politician could even present this as an opportunity for the Hamas government to show its will to "uphold law and order" and attached some significant carrots to their cooperation in the realease of the soldier but only if the responsible "rogue" cell (as the government claimed no knowledge of the operation) is also severely punished. It would give the moderate Hamas elements a chance to gain influence and standing.

And so on.

But again, that was never compatible with Israeli attitude of swagger, arrogance and absolute insistence on subjegation of all of the "inferior" Arabs around them by brute force, making damn sure that any political or diplomatic venues are never given any chance. It is simply the greatest fear of some powerful interests in Israel that the country will find itself surrounded by stable, peaceful and prosperous Arab neighbours and thus deprived of excuses for belligerent military supremacy, which appears to form the very core of the whole national identity for so many Israelis (and arm-chair Zionist generals world over).

[ 14 July 2006: Message edited by: IgnoramusMaximus ]

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:
I missed the part where you explained the responsibilities of Israel to the civilian population in the Occupied Territories. Shall I hold my breath?

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please do, until you faint if you please

btw it was implied in my post, I said Israel is culpable.

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A sane, reasonable response to Hezbollah would be an attempt to coordinate, or at least create a pretense of such coordination or cooperation, with the supposedly democratically elected government of Lebanon. Since they are officially condemning the Hezbollah action, they would be hard pressed to manage to weasel out from at least pretending to be cooperating if a request had come down from Israel for the Lebanese to assist in recovery of these kidnapped soldiers.

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Originally posted by thorin_bane:

I am pissed at the NDP's lack of action on this. hence Why I have never been an official member of the NDP.

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As has been argued on various threads, the NDP is some vicious rightwing agent of Zionist imperialism (I hope I got my slogans right ) out to destroy the 5 sole remaining members of the true Canadian left. It used to be a left-of-centre political party, then space alien Jack Layton kidnapped it and turned it into an adjunct of Likud and AIPAC. And Bay Street (Paul Summerville says hello).

Thank God Layton has been exposed for what he is.

[ 14 July 2006: Message edited by: Critical Mass2 ]

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Originally posted by Stockholm:

That would be nice, but isn't Hezbollah actually part of the government of Lebanon?

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Yes they are, but as some others have already pointed out, their activities are severely at odds with the interests of other members of the same government. Do you remember that whole spout of assasinations followed by Syrian forces slinking away from Lebanon and the Hezbollah's diminished position as a result of the political realignments that followed? The fact that they are nominally a part of government does not mean that they form a majority or even a controlling force therein, specially if all other factions are firmly aligned against them on the issue.

As a matter of fact a shrewd politician could use this incident to further reduce Hezbollah's influence by painting them as immature and not fit for governance in the eyes of Lebanese public by contrasting their activities to what happens when Isreal cooperates with the "responsible adults" in the government.

[ 14 July 2006: Message edited by: IgnoramusMaximus ]

The idea that Israel is protecting its soldiers or its civillians by this kind of warmongering and racism is hilarious. This is the kind of "diplomacy" that has them where they are now.

Blair is now well to the left of Canada too, at least Canadians can cut out the crap that they are a progressive, peace loving country, we now have one of the most disgusting governments in the world when it comes to murdering Arab civillians. The NDP's statement is typically cautious but at least it is something and says some of the right things.

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Originally posted by arborman:

That position requires not only to have wilfully ignored any NDP statements outside of this forum, but not even to have read this very thread.

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THE IRONY IS almost beyond belief. Since the capture of an Israeli soldier on June 25, the Gaza Strip has been subjected to a large-scale military operation, what Israel calls ``Summer Rain." Because Israel bombed the power plant, and the area needs electricity to pump water, most of Gaza now has almost no access to drinking water. In the heat of summer, rain would be a blessing far more welcome than the ongoing bombings.

I am already starting to lose track of days and nights, of how many bombs have dropped. Since the main power plant was destroyed, we have had to live with no electricity. What we do get is patchy, and barely enough to recharge our mobile phones and our laptops so that we do not lose all touch with each other and with the outside world.

As a physician, I fear for our patients. Twenty-two hospitals have no electricity.

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They came first to the little village of Dweir near Nabatiya in southern Lebanon where an Israeli plane dropped a bomb on to the home of a Shia Muslim cleric. He was killed. So was his wife. So were eight of his children. One was decapitated. All they could find of a baby was its head and torso which a young villager brandished in fury in front of the cameras. Then the planes visited another home in Dweir and disposed of a family of seven.

It was a brisk start to Day Two of Israel's latest "war on terror", a conflict that uses some of the same language - and a few of the same lies - as George Bush's larger "war on terror". For just as we "degraded" Iraq - in 1991 as well as 2003 - so yesterday it was Lebanon's turn to be "degraded".

That means not only physical death but economic death and it arrived at Beirut's gleaming new £300m international airport just before 6am as passengers prepared to board flights to London and Paris.

From my home, I heard the F-16 which suddenly appeared over the newest runway and fired a spread of rockets into it, ripping up 20 metres of tarmac and blasting tons of concrete into the air in a massive explosion before a Hetz-class Israeli gunboat fired on to the other runways.

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Originally posted by Critical Mass2:
As has been argued on various threads, the NDP is some vicious rightwing agent of Zionist imperialism (I hope I got my slogans right ) out to destroy the 5 sole remaining members of the true Canadian left. It used to be a left-of-centre political party, then space alien Jack Layton kidnapped it and turned it into an adjunct of Likud and AIPAC.

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Originally posted by Petsy:

Southern Lebanon was not occupied. Hizbollah terrorists invaded Israeli territory (this after Israel pulled out of all Lebanese territory over 5 years ago)kidnapped Israeli soldiers and killed others.

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The Fisk piece makes me feel like hurling. The Israeli targetting of ordinary Lebanese is suicidal nihilism. I'm feeling how I did when Afghanistan was bombed October 2001. Senseless depravity in the name of civilization.

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Hey have you guys heard about Haiti, Oh yeah there isn't anything Isreali there yet the NDP is by and large silent on this too. Maybe Venezuela?

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The NDP also hasn't wholeheartedly supported the IRA in Northern Ireland, nor have they expressed support for the Chechen terrorists who killed all those children at Beslan - what a useless party!!

[ 14 July 2006: Message edited by: Stockholm ]

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Oh, for FUCKS sakes! Hezbollah is not a terrorist group, they are a legitimate resistance front protecting their people from the murderous Israeli regime.

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Major allies differ with US on Israeli attack
Web posted at: 7/15/2006 8:50:9
Source ::: AFP
PARIS • Major US allies yesterday condemned the ferocity of Israel’s military attack on Lebanon, revealing a clear split with Washington’s moderate call for restraint.

Cries of alarm mounted worldwide after Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert ordered armed forces to intensify the offensive in response to rockets hitting towns in northern Israel, killing two and wounding 50.

As the civilian death toll in Lebanon mounted above 60 and Israeli warplanes hit buildings, roads and Beirut airport, French President Jacques Chirac questioned whether Israel was seeking Lebanon’s destruction.

“One may well ask if there isn’t today a kind of wish to destroy Lebanon—its infrastructure, its roads, its communications, its energy, its airport. And for what?

“I find honestly—as all Europeans do—that the current reactions are totally disproportionate,” he said in a live television interview on France’s national Bastille Day.

Around the rest of world, however, leaders bluntly condemned Israel’s response.

“In my view, Israel is making a mistake,” said Spanish Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero. “It will only lead to an escalation of the violence.”

In Italy, Prime Minister Romano Prodi said he recognised Israel’s legitimate concerns and condemning the kidnapping of the soldiers. But “we deplore the escalation in the use of force, the serious damage to Lebanese infrastructure and the civilian casualties of the raids,” the Italian leader added.

The Vatican secretary of state, Angelo Sodano, said: “The Holy See deplores the attack on Lebanon, a free and sovereign country,” adding that he felt for the people “who had already suffered in defence of their independence.”

Germany called on Israel to consider the longer term impact of its strike on Lebanon. “On the one hand, Israel has the internationally recognised right to self defence.

But at the same time we ask our Israeli friends and partners not to lose sight of the long-term consequences when they exercise this right,” German deputy government spokesman Jens Ploetner said.

“Here we think care should be taken about the situation in Lebanon, which is a fragile entity as a state and could be further destabilised,” he added. Already, Israel has imposed an air and sea blockade on Lebanon, shut the only international airport by bombing its runways and damaged the main Beirut-Damascus highway.

Iran, which with Syria is a sponsor of Hezbollah, called on the United Nations to step in.

“The international community and the UN must intervene to stop this crime,” Iranian Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki said during a visit to Greece.

In Indonesia, the world’s most populous Muslim state, President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono was quoted by the state news agency Antara as saying: “Indonesia repeats its call for Israel to stop its military action.”

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Originally posted by Stockholm:

The NDP also hasn't wholeheartedly supported the IRA in Northern Ireland, nor have they expressed support for the Chechen terrorists who killed all those children at Beslan - what a useless party!!

[ 14 July 2006: Message edited by: Stockholm ]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Disgusted:
I believe I heard on the National tonight that Israel believes the captured soldiers were taken to Iran. If so, I see this as the first crack of an opening door to war with Iran, and eventually the whole middle east. Far from that brain-dead moron Bush stepping in to calm things down, I think this will be his excuse to get the US involved.

And then, of course, our noble leader SH-- will have to send our troops over to help our allies.

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I've also been wondering about this as a possible underlying motive for this sudden and massive escalation of violence in the middle east.

Israel has been practicing "targetted assassination" against ANY resistance leaders (radical or not) for DECADES (since LONG before the start of either Intifada).

Israel has been indiscriminantly targetting civilians for DECADES, in its' "reprisal attacks" against ANYONE (it seems) that opposes them even a bit.

Israel has been practicing "collective punishment" (illegal under the 4th geneva convention) FOR DECADES (where ALL are punished for the acts of a few, like bulldozing homes with people in them).

Israel has been illegally targeting civilian infrastructure (like bridges, schools, hospitals,residential neighborhoods,etc) for DECADES.

Israel illegally blocks civilians from receiving medical treatment by restricting their movements and forbidding travel.

Israel illegally blocks shipments of food, water and medical aid whenever Israel feels like it and has been doing so FOR DECADES.

On average, 3-4 Palestinians die for every 1 Israeli. I wonder why that is? Indiscriminate bombing, shelling, shooting directed at the Palestinian CIVILIAN population (illegal, again, under the Geneva Conventions). Israel targets one or two "rebel leaders" in a residential neighborhood and takes out a dozen or more CIVILIANS along with the target(s) (if Israel even nails the target in the first place).

Now that the tide has turned and others are doing similar things to them, they cry foul.

How odd.

If any other nation attacked its neighbors the way Israel does, it would be invaded and there would be a "regime change".... oh wait, THAT HAS HAPPENED IN IRAQ.

Wow... Israel can do whatever it wants and gets money from superpowers like America, but anyone else does it and whammo... "regime change" or international sanctions, etc.

The Israeli state has no interest in peace. It wants land. If it wanted peace it would have pulled out of the Occupied Territories long ago. The few civilian Israeli casualties it suffers are acceptable collateral damage in the eyes of a political leadership as indifferent to death as Bush is to a few thousand white/black trash in Iraq. They are easily replaced with fresh refugees from Russia and Eastern Europe.

The Israeli state will continue to pursue an agenda designed to degrade the living conditions in the Occupied Territories, actively encouraging the inhabitants to leave.

With its unquestioning military superiority, it is to its advantage to push the Palestinians into open conflicts, which it will win every time. 'Peace' deprives it of the necessary rationale to pursue its longstanding goal of, basically, driving the Palestinians into the sea. Like Bush and the war in Iraq, this is not a morally defensible program so trot out the usual propaganda about terrorists as cover.

Recently in response to Israeli rocket attacks that killed a family on a beach, Hamas killed two Israeli soldiers and kidnapped a third.

Presto: the Israeli state is furnished with a new rationale for the next step in the Israeli war machine's campaign: reoccupy Gaza. Smash up more civilian infrastructure; refuse Hamas request for a ceasefire. Kill, what, fifty or so more Palestinian civilians. Turn up the heat in Gaza. Make life there even shittier than it already is. Behead what remains of organized Palestinian resistance in the form of the democratically elected Hamas by kidnapping as many as they can get their hands on. Label them all terrorists.
The wall; I just figured it out. It's not to prevent ongoing suicide bombings. Those stopped a while ago with Hamas unilateral ceasefire. No, the wall is in preparation for an Israeli escalation of hostilities against the Palestinians. Once the wall is in place they can go about their ongoing displacement of Palestinians from their dwindling bantustans untroubled by sporadic retributive violence. Mark my words; this is just the beginning. How quickly a thousand (I think that's the number?) tanks appeared on the Gaza border after the kidnapping. Long-planned strategic assault, anyone?

The assault on Lebanon more complex. I think Hezbollah may have waded in to take the heat off of Gaza; indeed, we see a drawdown of Israeli forces there, presumably to free them up for a follow through in south Lebanon.

It all makes perfect sense. The Israeli state has to move smartish, who knows how long Bush will remain in power, a couple more years or so. They have to act now. Soften up potential threats inside Lebanon preemptively - and for Christsakes don't give me bullshit excuses that this is all for a couple of kidnapped soldiers, what are you people smoking? - in preparation for heightened activity in the Occupied Territories.

The Israeli state assured of American support in its operations in Lebanon since Bush is anxious to engage Syria and Iran but lacks sufficient grounds. Which is saying something for that lot.

Very shrewd, very bloodthirsty, but who cares? They know from experience the world will mouth a few complaints and carry on. With the number one bullyboy in their pocket, what do they care?

The Israeli state is happy to sacrifice the kidnapped soldiers, who will die happy in the knowledge that they gave their lives for a greater goal! Well, maybe not, but the choice isn't theirs. It's been made for them by a ruling elite as cynical and corrupt as their western allies.

[ 15 July 2006: Message edited by: Merowe ]

And to the poster who said throwing rocks essentially means this kids deserved to die is sick. I watched a film called Life in the Gaza strip about those rock throwing boys. How hard would it be for kids, mere kids, to live under such constant terror. Then when they throw a rock at the Israeli army, they are shot dead. That is a crime.

quote:

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Originally posted by Stargazer:
Great post cdn. I have tried to follow what is happening, what the historical issues are etc. so I can get a grip on why an oppressed people who do what they are doing to another group of people, oppressed by the oppressors. [...]

There are people on both sides trying to make peace but those people are being ignored, and not given the media attention they deserve. Some, maybe many, Jews want Israel out of Gaza. But they are moderates, and are likely not well liked by their own governments.

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Stargazer, do me a favour and don't define the situation in terms of "Jews" or "oppressed people". You liked cdnviking's post -- so did I -- but cdn never once mentioned Jews. The modern-day Israeli state is the most anti-Jewish concept I can imagine, according to my view of what the Jewish people have held sacred for hundreds of years. I know you're doing this from good motives, but the Jews are not the culprits here -- the bastards are. Ehud Olmert and George W. Bush and Stephen Harper.

[ 15 July 2006: Message edited by: unionist ]

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The Israeli state has no interest in peace. It wants land.

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Robert Fisk: They came first to the little village of Dweir near Nabatiya in southern Lebanon where an Israeli plane dropped a bomb on to the home of a Shia Muslim cleric. He was killed. So was his wife. So were eight of his children. One was decapitated. All they could find of a baby was its head and torso which a young villager brandished in fury in front of the cameras. Then the planes visited another home in Dweir and disposed of a family of seven.

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Robert Fisk

But that's not the worst of it. Oh no. It's now being reported that Israeli forces are using toxic weapons in the Gaza Strip.

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Director of Public Relations at Gaza City's Al Shifa Hospital, Dr. Juma Al Sakka, confirmed the Palestinian Ministry of Health's report from earlier this week which stated that Israeli forces are using toxic weapons in the Gaza Strip.

Dr. Al Sakka told Voice of Palestine Radio that the Israeli army is using new types of non-conventional weapons against the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip during the recent attacks. He said, "They are targeting the Palestinian body with unconventional weapons and with that comes a phenomena we have not seen before in any Israeli bombardment we have lived through for many years."

He continued, "The hospital is central and sees almost all cases of injuries and deaths as a result of Israeli against the Palestinians of the Gaza Strip. These Israeli bombings are entering the body and fragmenting, causing internal combustion leading to up to fourth degree internal burns, exposing the bone, and affecting the tissue and skin."

The doctor added, "These tissues die, they do not survive, which obliges us to perform arm or leg amputations, and there are fragments which penetrate the body and do not show up on X-rays. When entering the body they spark like a combustion firearm, but not chemically. They seem radioactive."

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And what is the response to this?

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...the doctor reported that "no one has lifted a finger." Dr. Al Sakka complained that he did not see any foreign medical institution interested in the use of new weapons and their affects on the human body. He said, "What we found were journalists who came to take pictures, but as for the medical community, nothing."

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[ 15 July 2006: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

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Originally posted by Stargazer:
Unionist, I hope you are not implying I am a racist. Is not Isreal the Jewish state?

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Stargazer, I know you are totally anti-racist and progressive and I will never imply anything different. That's why I appealed to you not to frame the Israel-Palestine issue in religious terms. I know you're only doing that because it is so often reflected that way in the media.

So please hear me out.

No, Stargazer, Israel is not "the Jewish state". No more than Iran is "the Muslim state" or the U.S. is "the democratic state". Nor was South Africa "the White state" before 1994. I am a Jew, and Canada is my "state". And the vast majority of Jews outside Israel will tell you the same.

The Jewish people are a people with many political and ideological diversities. But they have managed (largely because of being oppressed in various ways) to make a disproportionate contribution to humanity in many fields, including science, the arts, political thought, literature, music, enlightenment. They have also contributed Zionism, a pernicious ideology which is based on the notion that Jews can't live in harmony with non-Jews, and ultimately leads to the kind of horrors that Israel represents in the world today.

Never mind. I got this from this site:

Brief History of Israel and the Jewish People

[ 15 July 2006: Message edited by: Stargazer ]

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Originally posted by Bubbles:
Maybe religion was used in this case to further the interrests of a few. Many Jews were no doubt feeling very vulnarable after the second world war and were maybe an easy target to be drawn into this colonisation of Palistine. I am no historical expert but can well imagine that the Zionist saw an oportunity after the second world war to realize their objective.

In the same vane the Spanish used religion to colonise South America. Not?

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Originally posted by Sven:
I thought Israel was created in 1948(?) to create a Jewish state. Not a state that was necessarily composed solely of Jews but a state that was controlled by the Jews living there.

Is that not correct?

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Originally posted by Stargazer:
Unionist, why was Israel created? Was it not to create a Jewish state?

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Look up "Herzl" and "Balfour Declaration" and you'll find that modern-day Israel was born as a strategy to use Jews to colonize part of the Middle East as a bulwark of European interests. Herzl, the "father" of modern Zionism, proposed Uganda (another British colony) as a Jewish homeland, but this didn't fit with imperial designs.

Yes, Israel was "created" as a "Jewish state". What are you trying to say by that? Everyone knows that. Does that mean it is "a Jewish state", or as you put in your post which is what got me going in the first place: "the Jewish state"?

No, Stargazer, it doesn't mean that.

The post-war South African state was created as a "European (i.e. White) state". To use Sven's analogy, the intent was that it be controlled by the Whites who lived there. Does that mean South Africa was "the White state" -- or that "Whites" or "Europeans" were somehow served by this state?

Europeans, Africans, Asians, Jews, Christians, atheists, Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus fought together in the ANC and other organizations to destroy the racist apartheid South African state. This was not the struggle of one race against another.

Likewise, the struggle in the Middle East is not the struggle of one religion or nationality against another. It is the fight of the people as a whole against racists and colonialists and religious exclusivism.

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Originally posted by unionist:

I don't know. Maybe. That's an interesting idea. A state controlled by members of one religion, even though many religions (and atheists) inhabit it. Was that the idea? Wow.

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No

Isreal is currently and was created a secular state, with a secular constitution.

Here is the Israeli governments website which outlines a brief history leading up to independence from Britain

Declaration of Establishment of State of Israel

[ 15 July 2006: Message edited by: TemporalHominid ]

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Originally posted by TemporalHominid:

Isreal is currently and was created a secular state, with a secular constitution.

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I understand that point very well. The question is: Why is it called a Jewish state? Is Sven correct, or not, when he states that it was created as "a state that was controlled by the Jews living there"? I don't care whether you define Jews as religious, or an ethnic group, or whatever.

I fail to see why the hell calling it a Jewish state is so offensive for you when the link above I posted referred to the same concept. Irregardless of the religion and so forth.

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Originally posted by Merowe:
Phew. Listening to the BBC today, ongoing coverage as the Israeli attack on Lebanon continues, it becomes increasingly apparent that kidnapped soldiers are the flimsiest of pretexts. This looks like one big-ass assault, a major aggression on the part of Israel. One has to wonder what lies behind it. Did they get a green light from Bush? Did they consult at all?

The plot thickens. But what is their intent? Simply to flatten Hezbollah?

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Hezbollah - like other Islamic terrorist groups -hides out among civilians cowardly scum that they are. .

The Israelis are targeting the infrastructure to prevent guns and ammunition from entering the country and the kidnapped soldiers from leaving it. Israel is not attacking civilians but on the other hand Hezbollah is attacking civilians by firing rockets at Haifa - Israel's third most populated city!

Israel has struck Hezbollah positions in the Southern Suburbs of Beirut (after dropping leaflets telling people to get out you think Hez. or Hamas would do that.

Israel WITHDREW from Lebanon. The result - Hezbollah stronger, not disarmed as promised and OBLIGATED UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW .

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/435068p-366373c.html

Israel's last resort
After withdrawal, Hamas and Hezbollah have waged endless, ruthless war

Moreover it seems that Israel did a little kidnapping of it's own on June 24:

Israel makes first Gaza arrest raid since pullout

[ 15 July 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

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Originally posted by Stargazer:
Unionist you are getting bent out of shape and turning this into a fight, which it is not. Not once, not once in any post did I refer to or even alude to religion. You projected that onto my post.

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Stargazer, I am telling you again that I do not find you or your views offensive in any way. Let me tell you something. Judaism is a religion. When you say "Jews", you are identifying people by the religion (whether they are believers or observant or not). "Jew" is not a nationality, no more than "Muslim". "Canadian" or "Israeli" or "Palestinian" is.

And when you said "oppressed people", who did you mean? I assumed you meant Jews. Israelis are not an "oppressed people".

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Originally posted by B.L. Zeebub LLD:

I could well be that this is a pretext for preparations for a wider conflict with Iran involving the United States. Blowing up the Beirut airport, weakening Hezbollah, practicing naval manouevers to blockade Lebanon all make sense in that context. Israel may be ensuring that they can't be flanked if things kick off between the U.S./Israel and Iran. It's also a chance for them to flex muscle and demonstrate just how far ahead their military ability is to everyone in the region. Deterrence.

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Fleeing refugees, including women and children, were hit on a road adjacent to the Lebanese-Israeli border in an apparent Israeli airstrike as they left the village of Marwaheen, which abuts the border. Two cars were aflame, and bodies were blown into an adjacent ravine.

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Originally posted by chilipepper:
Hezbollah is a terrorist org. orginally formed to support Khomeni's Islamic State. It is now the same as Hamas, terrorists with the same goals - the detruction of Israel.

Hezbollah - like other Islamic terrorist groups -hides out among civilians cowardly scum that they are. .

The Israelis are targeting the infrastructure to prevent guns and ammunition from entering the country and the kidnapped soldiers from leaving it. Israel is not attacking civilians but on the other hand Hezbollah is attacking civilians by firing rockets at Haifa - Israel's third most populated city!

Israel has struck Hezbollah positions in the Southern Suburbs of Beirut (after dropping leaflets telling people to get out you think Hez. or Hamas would do that.

Israel WITHDREW from Lebanon. The result - Hezbollah stronger, not disarmed as promised and OBLIGATED UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW .

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/435068p-366373c.html

Israel's last resort
After withdrawal, Hamas and Hezbollah have waged endless, ruthless war

Eleven months ago, Israel withdrew from every last inch of the Gaza Strip. They dismantled all military bases, turned over functioning greenhouses that could employ 4,000 people, expelled all 7,500 Israeli settlers at a huge financial and political cost and declared the lines that divide Israel from Gaza to be an international frontier, making Gaza the first independent Palestinian territory ever.
Everyone's expectation was that the Palestinians, so treated, would show the world what they could achieve with freedom. Alas, they have shown all too well. Not one day of peace has followed.
The pattern was set on the very day of Israel's pullout, when Palestinian forces fired rockets into Israeli towns on the other side of the border. The final straw was the tunneling under the border with Israel, the attack on an Israeli tank and the point-blank murder of two Israeli soldiers and kidnapping of a third.
A few days later, inspired by the rhetorical threats of Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Hezbollah of Lebanon joined Hamas by attacking Israel from the north. They killed eight Israeli soldiers, kidnapped two others and began firing rockets into Israel.

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From today's Guardian:

"In one attack, apparently on vehicles full of families trying to get away from the bombing, an estimated 13 people, including eight children, died when a truck and a car were incinerated by an Israeli air attack."

Some infrastructure.

Some respect for international law.

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:
A political cartoon from Carlos Latuff on the topic of this thread is worth looking at: Collective Punishment: Trademark of Israel

Latuff is also the author of the famous "We are all Palestinians" series.

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Originally posted by ohara:

Let us remember however, Israel's campaign began when Hezbollah militants based in Lebanon abducted two Israeli soldiers and killed three others during a raid into Israel Wednesday. Israel vowed to free the soldiers and take out Hezbollah.

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I guess they're keeping the soldiers at the international airport? BTW, when did Hezbollah get an airforce?

Anyway, we know it's all Hezbollah's (or is it Lebanon's?) fault, a fact I'm sure you have in bold letters at the top of your talking points.

However, when analysing events of this nature and magnitude, it's usually wise to pay some attention to the broader contexts - be they strategic interests, history, regional power balances, not to mention global imperial power structures like that between the U.S. and their major client, Israel.

Though I'm sure you'll remind us that none of that matters. Just Hezbollah, Hezbollah, Hezbollah = Bad, Bad, Bad....

BTW - Israel abducted two Gazans on June 24. They also killed an entire family on a beach a few weeks back. They have also killed dozens and injured scores more during a military campaign aimed largely at terrorising the civilian population of Gaza. Remember this is a group that regularly kills or injures civilians, regularly crosses recognised international borders of soveriegn states to carry out illegal military operations, and has kept several hundred thousand people as second-class...well, we can't even call them citizens for several decades.

Would it be justified to bomb Tel Aviv airport?

[ 15 July 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

Also, in response to Israeli warfare against civilians, George W.Bush said to stop the violence you have to understand what causes the violence. Suddenly, the "root cause" argument gains currency with neo-con liars and hypocrites.

[ 15 July 2006: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
It was reported on ABC news that Israel is now attacking citizen infrastructure and food stores deliberately provoking a humanitarian crisis.

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Israel’s past offers enough parallels that its government should and probably does understand that it has a choice: to ignore the extremists and talk about some kind of peace deal with the mainstream or to use the extremists as an excuse not to talk to the mainstream either. It has chosen the latter option, and the current, vastly disproportionate Israeli attacks on the Gaza Strip are the evidence for it.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has big plans for imposing a “peace settlement” and new frontiers on the Palestinians—frontiers that will keep all the bigger Jewish settlement blocks (plus all of Jerusalem, of course) within Israel. International political correctness requires that he negotiate this with the Palestinians, but he knows perfectly well that they could never agree to such a terrible deal. Why should they? So he must find a way of demonstrating that negotiations are impossible.

Olmert knows (even if Washington doesn’t) that destroying the Hamas government will not bring the “moderates” back to power. It will just create a power vacuum in the occupied territories that will be filled by all kinds of crazies with guns. Ideal circumstances for carrying out Olmert’s plans, wouldn’t you say?

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Let us remember however, Israel's campaign began when Hezbollah militants based in Lebanon abducted two Israeli soldiers and killed three others during a raid into Israel Wednesday. Israel vowed to free the soldiers and take out Hezbollah.

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Hmm. Say, this reminds me of an old story. It goes something like this:

Step 1:Find a pretext:

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On the night of August 31, 1939, a small group of German operatives led by Naujocks seized the Gleiwitz station and broadcasted a message in Polish that urged the Poles living in Silesia to strike against Germans. The Germans' goal was to make the attack and broadcast look like the work of anti-German Polish insurgents.

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Step 2: Invade:

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Following a number of German-staged incidents (Operation Himmler), which gave German propaganda an excuse to claim that German forces were acting in self-defense, the first regular act of war took place on September 1, 1939, at 04:40 hours, when the German Air Force (Luftwaffe) attacked the Polish town of Wieluń, destroying 75% of the city and killing close to 1,200 people, most of them civilians. Five minutes later, at 04:45 hours, the old German battleship Schleswig-Holstein opened fire on the Polish military transit depot at Westerplatte, in the Free City of Danzig on the Baltic Sea. At 08:00 hours, German troops, still without a formal declaration of war issued, attacked near the Polish town of Mokra. Later that day, the Germans opened fronts along Poland's western, southern and northern borders, while German aircraft began raids on Polish cities

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History is a bitch.

I know, we are all supposed to tip-toe around the bloody obvious elephant in the room, but this is a situation that could be the beginnings of a major conflagration across the globe.

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Originally posted by Stargazer:
Now that was in extremely poor taste.

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Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has big plans for imposing a “peace settlement” and new frontiers on the Palestinians—frontiers that will keep all the bigger Jewish settlement blocks (plus all of Jerusalem, of course) within Israel.

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:

I think this goes way further than that. I think Israel and the US, by provoking a humanitarian emergency where Syria, flooded by refugees from Iraq and Lebanon, is destablized.

I think the ultimate goal is to force Iran into a wider, regional war. I think the US doesn't have the stomach to initiate hostilities against Iran in the run up to mid-term elections and this is being staged, or used as a pretext, to cause Iran to "misstep" into war.

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[ 15 July 2006: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]