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Author Topic: Sick of Work?
robbie_dee
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posted 13 September 2004 12:45 PM      Profile for robbie_dee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The New York Times is running a fascinating series on the issue of workplace stress. Here is a clip from the opening article:

quote:
American workers are stressed out, and in an unforgiving economy, they are becoming more so every day.

Sixty-two percent say their workload has increased over the last six months; 53 percent say work leaves them "overtired and overwhelmed."

Even at home, in the soccer bleachers or at the Labor Day picnic, workers are never really off the clock, bound to BlackBerries, cellphones and laptops. Add iffy job security, rising health care costs, ailing pension plans and the fear that a financial setback could put mortgage payments out of reach, and the office has become, for many, an echo chamber of angst.

It is enough to make workers sick - and it does.

Decades of research have linked stress to everything from heart attacks and stroke to diabetes and a weakened immune system. Now, however, researchers are connecting the dots, finding that the growing stress and uncertainty of the office have a measurable impact on workers' health and, by extension, on companies' bottom lines.

Workplace stress costs the nation more than $300 billion each year in health care, missed work and the stress-reduction industry that has grown up to soothe workers and keep production high, according to estimates by the American Institute of Stress in New York. And workers who report that they are stressed, said Steven L. Sauter, chief of the Organizational Science and Human Factors Branch of the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health, incur health care costs that are 46 percent higher, or an average of $600 more per person, than other employees.

"The costs are significant," Dr. Sauter said, adding, "Those are just the costs to the organization, and not the burden to individuals and to society."

American workers are not the only ones grappling with escalating stress and ever greater job demands. European companies are changing once-generous vacation policies, and stress-related illnesses cost England 13 million working days each year, one British health official said.

"It's an issue everywhere you go in the world," said Dr. Guy Standing, the lead author of "Economic Security for a Better World," a new report from the International Labor Office, an agency of the United Nations.

White-collar workers are particularly at risk, Dr. Standing said, because "we tend to take our work home."


Read the rest:

John Schwartz, "Always on the Job, Employees Pay with Health," New York Times, Sept. 5, 2004.

(Note: to view New York Times Articles without registering, use login: babblers8 , password: audrarules )


From: Iron City | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
robbie_dee
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posted 13 September 2004 12:47 PM      Profile for robbie_dee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Here's the second entry in the series:

Anahad O'Connor, "Cracking under the pressure? Just the opposite for some," New York Times, Sept. 10, 2004.

quote:
For Michael Jones, an architect at a top-tier firm in New York, juggling multiple projects and running on four hours of sleep is business as usual. Mr. Jones has adjusted, he says, to a rapid pace and the constant pressure that leads his colleagues to "blow up" from time to time.

A design project can drag on for more than a year, often requiring six-day workweeks and painstaking effort. At the moment, he said, he is working on four.

But for Mr. Jones, the stress is worth it, if only because every now and then he can gaze at the Manhattan skyline and spot a product of his labor: the soaring profile of the Chatham apartment building on East 65th Street, one of many structures he has helped design in his 14 years at Robert A. M. Stern Architects.

"If I didn't feel like I was part of something important, I wouldn't be able to do this," he said.


Read the Rest


From: Iron City | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
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posted 13 September 2004 01:03 PM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Although overstress may be a problem in some places, my experience with people who are "sick of work" is people who just don't feel like coming in so they call in sick, causing me to work up to four hours longer than I am scheduled to be in.


In cases where there truly is too much job-related stress, it astounds me that the empolyers who are otherwise savvy in economics don't understand that employees are actually more productive when they have adequate rest time.


From: Arkham Asylum | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
beverly
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posted 13 September 2004 01:13 PM      Profile for beverly     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm not sure employers care about adequate rest time for their workers. Its about getting a job done. I work between 60 and 80 hours a week. BF works on average 100 hours every seven days with odd days off so its impossible to plan anything. Because of that he's thinking about going back to the rigs o work - three weeks in, one week out sounds a lot less stressful.

Neither of us ever has had a whole weekend off in over two months.

I wouldn't say I'm stressed but I noticed we both are more suspetiable to colds. Knock wood haven't had the flu yet.


From: In my Apartment!!!! | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
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posted 13 September 2004 01:27 PM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by beverly:
I'm not sure employers care about adequate rest time for their workers. Its about getting a job done.

It's a little difficult to get the job done when all your workers are sick. That is why I don't understand the way some of those employers think...


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steffie
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posted 13 September 2004 06:29 PM      Profile for steffie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
They think of the money. Workers are simply a means to production. I am acutely aware of this stress in my own workplace. Sometimes I *squawk* when the pressure gets too much!!
From: What are the roots that clutch, what branches grow / Out of this stony rubbish? | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
thwap
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posted 13 September 2004 06:54 PM      Profile for thwap        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gir Draxon:

It's a little difficult to get the job done when all your workers are sick. That is why I don't understand the way some of those employers think...


It might be explainable with a reference to a harried middle manager attempting to fulfill the mindless directives of a "Dilbert"-type upper management type.


From: Hamilton | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Pimji
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posted 13 September 2004 11:28 PM      Profile for Pimji   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
It's a little difficult to get the job done when all your workers are sick. That is why I don't understand the way some of those employers think...

Unfortunately I understand all to well how employers think. Looking at a spreadsheet is what they are really looking at and business is doing very well these days. Organized and especially non union labour has weak bargaining power and at he same time workers literally buy into the stress and add to it by taking on more debt and electing pro business governments. They/we feel obliged to buy SUVs, cell phones, $50.00+/month Cable/sat TV, ultra fast computers, TV in every room and shopping as entertainment etc. The jingle that sums up the times screams out "I WANT MORE !!!!"

There is more demand for the same amount of money that workers do make. Compared to, I'd say 30 years ago, we are living in larger houses with fewer children and take on as many high tech gadgets we can have. We need to get over the child like impulses to have all that new stuff we see in the (toy) stores and need to alleviate the stress ourselves. Employers won't do it for their employees because they don't have to. Health costs are passed onto the government and all workers can be replaced. Workers are to willing to take on more and more to buy more and more and only grumble when accepting less time and money in the form of less pensions and reduced benefits.

Imagine if a politician proposed a guaranteed annual income? They'd be quickly dismissed.


From: South of Ottawa | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 14 September 2004 12:06 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
BF works on average 100 hours every seven days with odd days off so its impossible to plan anything. Because of that he's thinking about going back to the rigs o work - three weeks in, one week out sounds a lot less stressful.

Every rig I ever worked on we'd be in three weeks with a week-end long change out. We'd sometimes get time off during rainouts, when the rig couldn't move, but otherwise your time off was 8am Friday morning until 4pm Monday, once every three weeks.

Most guys just quit after a while, and hired on somewhere else when their money ran out. By the time I left my last rig job, after being there five months, nobody but the Toolpush had been there longer than I had.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
ReeferMadness
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posted 14 September 2004 12:48 AM      Profile for ReeferMadness     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think the problem is that workaholics or people who are resistant to stress tend to rise in organizations and effectively run the world. They probably can't understand why the rest of the people can't (and don't want to) work the way they do.

Another shining example of the type of freedom that unrestricted capitalism brings.


From: Way out there | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
cynic
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posted 14 September 2004 04:11 AM      Profile for cynic     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I was recently in Amsterdam and read an interesting article in a local paper, decrying the increasing workload on the average Netherlander - apparently the average workweek has increased to 40 hours. This is seen as a barbaric attack on decency, as it should be.

I have seen right-wingers whine that North Americans need to be forced to work 60+ hours a week, in order to stay "competitive", lest those uppity foreigners start cutting into corporate profits. The irrational need to constantly improve the profit margin for the benefit of shareholders is killing us.


From: Calgary, unfortunately | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sine Ziegler
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posted 14 September 2004 10:08 AM      Profile for Sine Ziegler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
My BF worked on the rigs last year for 6 months and that was all he could take. The money is fantastic and it is difficult to spend because you work 18 hrs a day, NO JOKE and you have to sleep in the daytime if you are a rookie. There wasn't really a three weeks on, one week off. It was more like "Ok boss, I've worked 23 days straight now, can I take 2 days off to visit my GF?" and the boss would grant it. On the 7 hr drive back to the city, the boss would then call and say it was an emergency and my BF would have to drive back up. You are always on call.

So now my BF does what I do - work 40 hrs a week in the city making the same as me. It isn't a LOT of money, but we live happily and sadly enough, 40 hours a week sometimes seems like a lot because we get home at 6 and go to bed at 10:00 - hardly any time for play


From: Calgary | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 14 September 2004 10:36 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
My father loves that kind of "feast or fallow" work. His favourites are "shutdowns", where he'll work what he calls "6 twelves" (six days a week, 12 hour day) or "7 tens" or some similar. I've seen him do this for months, until he's almost unrecognizable. Just a 5am wraith staring out the window with a coffee and a smoke. It's like he's not truly happy until he's overworked.

As noted though, the pay is fantastic. When I was a kid I'd always ask about his premiums. When the stars aligned such that he'd work overtime Midnights on a holiday Sunday I loved calculating his actual wage. "Triple time and a half" was not unheard of back in the 70's and 80's.


From: ĝ¤°`°¤ĝ,¸_¸,ĝ¤°`°¤ĝ,¸_¸,ĝ¤°°¤ĝ,¸_¸,ĝ¤°°¤ĝ, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
arborman
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posted 14 September 2004 06:12 PM      Profile for arborman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I've had that kind of work (thankfully in the past). Fishermen (offshore)are known for working 72 hours straight, sleeping for 4, then doing another 72. Some would brag of spending over 300 days at sea in a year (and 50 more on shore working on the boat).

They are also known for dying young, likely as a direct result of both exhaustion (sinking) and long term health effects.

I had another job where I'd work 20 hour days for 3 months straight, in high stress conditions. I made buckets of money, and it paid my way through school without debt. If I had to do it now I'd likely weep.

What I found, after years of grueling work, was that, for most, work neither equals happiness nor wealth. In fact, I work less now than I ever have, (avg. 35 hours/wk, thank you union), and would never go back.

Overwork is a mug's game, plain and simple. Give up the car, tv and most of the technotoys, freedom follows. Not to mention real health etc.
This is not an original idea, but most of us just haven't got it yet.


From: I'm a solipsist - isn't everyone? | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
bittersweet
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posted 14 September 2004 07:11 PM      Profile for bittersweet     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
National daycare programs would help reduce the stress of millions of people, mostly women, who don't make any money working 24/7 and have no time off for about 18 years, often while working a second, usually low-paying job. That scandal surely represents the ultimate symbol of how out of touch our society is with the real meaning of work, and its true value.
From: land of the midnight lotus | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 14 September 2004 07:57 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The other thing is that not everybody is capable (financially or because of lack of skills/connections) of getting a job tailored to their liking.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
steffie
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posted 14 September 2004 08:02 PM      Profile for steffie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
The other thing is that not everybody is capable (financially or because of lack of skills/connections) of getting a job tailored to their liking.

Amen! Working below my potential sucks! The only thing that sucks more is having no job at all.


From: What are the roots that clutch, what branches grow / Out of this stony rubbish? | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 14 September 2004 10:09 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, to use myself as an example, I am most fortunate to be working in a field that is actually within my area of expertise (that being nuclear chemistry/physics), and in a position that is not very demanding.

Very few people have that kind of opportunity and I am well cognizant of the position I'm in. It is the rare McDonald's worker indeed that can set his or her own hours.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 14 September 2004 10:37 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If everyone in the capitalist system around the world were to work full time, then we would outstrip our natural resources in a relatively short amount of time. We can't continue using thousands of gallons of fresh water to make a plastic shower curtain liner and all the other plastic widgets that prop-up this middle class capitalism based on consumption.

Shared work weeks like they do in Europe is the answer. More time off and raise wages to 50% more than the American average. Nobody works more than three or four days a week at most. It should be about le joie de vivre and not work till we drop dead of a heart attack. Adrenaline, stress and the terrible food we eat are costing us in health care expenditures. All kinds of room for economic efficiency.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
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posted 14 September 2004 10:44 PM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm considerably less stressed in my job now than I was a few months ago -- not because it's less inherently stressful (if anything it's more frantic than before) but because I recently got a major increase in pay.

Stress is a lot easier to deal with when you know you're actually getting something out of it. There is absolutely nothing worse than working your fucking ass off every day knowing the whole time that you'll be lucky to scrape by from one paycheck to the next.

Unfortunately, that's a situation more and more people are finding themselves in. I'm just lucky to be a part of the countertrend. For how long, I don't know.


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
steffie
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posted 14 September 2004 10:48 PM      Profile for steffie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Overwork is a mug's game, plain and simple. Give up the car, tv and most of the technotoys, freedom follows. Not to mention real health etc.
This is not an original idea, but most of us just haven't got it yet.

I don't know that we are being encouraged to "get it". The marketers certainly want to keep the toys, cars, and donuts rolling off the assembly lines. They want our money. And they're willing to lie to us in order to get it. And part of us wants to believe what we see in the commercials - that happiness does equal a new car, a new computer, a bigger RRSP. I was very encouraged by listening to the premiers' health summit on TV; they all seem to agree that preventative measures are what's needed to turn our country around, health-wise. Promoting healthy lifestyles, wise choices, and positive outlooks - radical! Do you think this revolutionary thinking will ever be adopted by the Canadian government? Then fewer workers will be "sick" of their work. (sorry, maybe this sentiment belongs in the thread about the health system)


From: What are the roots that clutch, what branches grow / Out of this stony rubbish? | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
arborman
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posted 15 September 2004 12:49 PM      Profile for arborman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by steffie:
[QB]

I don't know that we are being encouraged to "get it". The marketers certainly want to keep the toys, cars, and donuts rolling off the assembly lines. They want our money. And they're willing to lie to us in order to get it. And part of us wants to believe what we see in the commercials - that happiness does equal a new car, a new computer, a bigger RRSP. QB]


Fair enough, but marketers only have as much power over us as we grant them. People are not sheep, no matter what adbusters or Chomsky say.


From: I'm a solipsist - isn't everyone? | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
ReeferMadness
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posted 16 September 2004 02:46 AM      Profile for ReeferMadness     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Fair enough, but marketers only have as much power over us as we grant them. People are not sheep, no matter what adbusters or Chomsky say.

Well, advertising works on 95% of the population. Does that make people sheep? Not exactly but most people can be manipulated.

Don't forget that many of the techniques used in modern advertising were pioneered in Nazi Germany where they helped convince an entire population to look the other way while the Nazis started a world war and conducted wholesale slaughter on segments of the population.


From: Way out there | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
arborman
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posted 16 September 2004 03:03 AM      Profile for arborman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Doh. Godwin kicks in.

I wrote a grad thesis on the use of mass media and advertising to set the political agenda, the parallels to personal agendas are striking.

However, in recent years I have come to think that few people fail to recognize that they are being manipulated by advertising, on some level at least.

We believe and desire what we want to desire, and advertising will either support it, or we will ignore it and go to the kitchen to grab a sandwich. One thing advertising can do is tell us about things we didn't know about, but it can't make us want them, we do that ourselves.

Not to say that media, PR and advertising aren't effective, just that I'm tired of the easy answer, that people are easily manipulated and tricked by the media. Most are not, and if they are, they usually know it. So that means they aren't, but choose to be in some way.

If we assume advertising and media have that effect, we deny individual agency and the ability of people to see through nonsense. Usually people make the advertising-as-brainwash argument, and everyone in the room nods in agreement. That implies a more complex process, where people individually choose to accept what advertising tells them they want, rather than take the more difficult route of defining their own needs and wants.

Unplug the tv, and life gets a lot simpler. Sell the car, and it's simpler still.


From: I'm a solipsist - isn't everyone? | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Jacob Two-Two
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posted 16 September 2004 03:30 AM      Profile for Jacob Two-Two     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yeah, I've noticed this about the Iraq war, for instance. Obviously people are fed misinformation but confront them with the truth and they often don't care. They had reasons for supporting the war completely separate from the lies that justified it, reasons that often have to do with their own psychological issues. The rationalisations were just to assure themselves that they were being logical, intelligent civilised creatures, but remove those rationalisations and the real motives for their decisions still remain, and are morer powerful, ultimately, than any logic or reason could hope to be.

By the way, I don't think Chomsky ever said people are sheep, and I never got that from his writing.


From: There is but one Gord and Moolah is his profit | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
kukuchai
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posted 16 September 2004 04:25 AM      Profile for kukuchai        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Work and single mothers:
I once had a very well paying job. I also received widow's benefits -- a paltry sum of $331 per month. The benefits kicked me into the next tax bracket so despite the fact that I was head of a single income household with 3 kids, one of which was just starting university, every year that I worked and as my salary increased I ended up owing the government some money. No small sums either: $800, $1200 and in the third year $2000 (yes, I took my books to a bookkeeper and the figures were correct). So, I quit filing because I never had the money to pay them back.
Finally, they did my taxes for me and I received a bill for $11,000. Wow! Who and what was I working for then?
When I spoke with their collections people I was advised to declare bankruptcy or they would garnishee my wages. Nice!
I told him that I would quit my job and they'd never get a dime out of me.
I was quite indignant and actually phoned the minister's office in Ottawa to remind them that their own statistics have shown that single older women are one of the poorest groups in the country, so why are you driving me into the poorhouse? I worked 12-hour shifts and wore steel toed shoes in a dirty, unhealthy environment, while suffering through the hot flashes of menopause. It was hell.
At that time I worked with a woman who did the same job I was doing and received the same compensation. But she was married and her husband made even more than her. Their kids were grown and gone and their house was paid for. Because of the dual income she was able to put away hundreds of dollars every month into an RRSP and at tax time she received a refund, each and every year, of several thousand dollars. She and her husband would then use this money for a Carribean cruise.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, I was still struggling with 3 kids, still working all the time with no time off or breaks, making the exact same money as this other woman except that at tax time I owed big time.
So, was I paying for her cruises?
Is this not blatant tax discrimination which favours married couples over single parents?
Is this not a slap in the face for all hard working single parents?
I felt like I'd been cut off at the knees!
And then the light went on: I wasn't working for myself at all. No matter how hard I tried, no matter how many over-time shifts I worked I'd never get ahead. The only thing that job guaranteed me was a credit rating. But I had to be a mouse in a cage going round and round but getting nowhere (except more burned-out and frustrated).
In other words, there was no point in working anymore.
It was time to get off the roller coaster (or prostitute myself to a low-paying job which would keep me in a lower tax bracket and would increase my child tax benefits).
As fate would have it, I was laid off; one of my children was diagnosed with a disability; my taxes were reviewed and I received a huge refund from them.
Happy ending for me but what about all the other working single mothers/fathers out there?

From: Earth | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Sine Ziegler
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posted 16 September 2004 08:24 AM      Profile for Sine Ziegler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Is this not blatant tax discrimination which favours married couples over single parents?

I feel for you but I see room for imprvement in what you say. You likely didn't actually OWE $11,000.

If you don't file, CRA will file for you if they know that you will owe. They won't give you the eligible dependent credit to reduce your taxes or any other credit you may be entitled to as a single parent, that other people who aren't in your single motherhood position cannot qualify for because they cannot make assumptions on credits and marital status and so forth.

When CRA files for you, it basically means they want you to come back with an ammended tax return. It's a way to force you to file.

What I think SUCKS is that CPP survivor's benefit is taxable. I agree wholeheartely on that with you.

What I think you are missing is that single mothers do get tax credits that married and common law don't.

You may even have qualified for Child Tax Benefit - and you get a higher amount if you are a single mom, than if you are married/CL.


From: Calgary | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
kukuchai
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posted 16 September 2004 11:31 AM      Profile for kukuchai        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
My Child Tax Benefit was about $60/month; GST rebates were $0 as was the Alberta Family Employment Tax Credit; made too much to be eligible for RRAP or any other programs. And even after I sent in amended tax returns I still owed money. It took about 3 years to clear all this up.

My point is that this is a form of workplace stress (abuse) that nobody should have to go through, single parent or otherwise. I was, in fact, being penalized for making too much money. I thought I was being a strong, independent, single parent. I bought a house, paid my own way, and was very proud of that (and still am), so the tax bill was a complete slap in the face.

By the way, "too much money" was about $50,000 per year all told -- on paper. My take-home pay was about $2400 per month together with CPP of $331=$2700 per month for 4 people. Oh yes, plus CTB of about $60. My mortgage alone was over $1000 and food (with two teenage boys in the house) about $800. And then there were taxes, car, house, life and accident insurance, car payments, utilities, other small bills, plus money for school fees, birthdays, Christmas, repairs on the vehicle plus gas and oil; and when my toilet leaks I have to fix it myself because there's never enough left over to pay a plumber.

The sad part is that if it wasn't for my son's disability and the ensuing tax credits (the Child Disability Benefit was introduced about the time I got laid off) I would still owe them money.

I still maintain that single parents have enough stressors in their lives; we don't need to be penalized for making too much money or for not having a husband. It shows a complete lack of respect for single parents who are working very hard to raise the next generation, on their own. And we can never afford a cruise to relieve that stress!


From: Earth | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
arborman
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posted 16 September 2004 12:37 PM      Profile for arborman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jacob Two-Two:

By the way, I don't think Chomsky ever said people are sheep, and I never got that from his writing.

He didn't, you are right. He said that people are misled and misinformed by their information providers. His implicit assumption is that they do not have the ability, desire or capacity to seek out alternative information. Like sheep.


From: I'm a solipsist - isn't everyone? | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 16 September 2004 02:29 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
How does that follow?
In order to have a motive to seek out alternative information, you have to have reason to believe there's something wrong with the information you're getting. If the information you're getting tells you there's nothing wrong with the information you're getting, you don't have that motive. And lacking that motive, you've got better things to do than find alternatives to what you believe is accurate and plentiful information.

To the contrary, I think Chomsky's formulation often gives people more credit than maybe they deserve--it contains the implicit assumption that if people knew different, they'd probably be acting on their information. Not sheep at all. I believe it was Rick Salutin's article a little while ago that argued that many people wouldn't act if they knew different, and in fact don't want to know different.


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Rebecca West
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posted 16 September 2004 03:06 PM      Profile for Rebecca West     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
As a single parent, there are all kinds of credits and subsidies I'm eligible for, and all kind of extra expenses that I'm responsible for. At the end of the day, it balances out. I still have no money left over for holidays or even occasionally eating in restaurants, but am better off than I was several years ago when I worked just as hard but got paid much less.

I'm owed thousands upon thousands of dollars in child support, but can't afford a lawyer and am not eligible for legal aid. Now, if I started getting that child support, my child care subsidy would be proportionally reduced. I get a raise in pay, and then my rent and utility costs go up.

We're doing much better, living in a house now instead of a basement apartment, buying groceries at the end of the month instead of visiting a food bank, my eldest is earning her own way now, the youngest is almost out of diapers, so there's a bit left over for nicer clothes and new shoes, instead of wearing everything until it disintegrates.

Yes, I work too many hours, but much of that work is unpaid volunteer work, parenting and domestic chores, or time spent studying (I'm taking a java programming course) so I can't claim that I'm being oppressed by my employer. My paid job only demands 35-40 a week. Am I tired? Hell yes. Would I like more money and more leisure time? Gawd yes! But even though it feels like I'm constantly treading water, there have been significant, measureable improvements in our lives over the past 10 years or so.


From: London , Ontario - homogeneous maximus | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
steffie
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posted 16 September 2004 06:15 PM      Profile for steffie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Way to go, Rebecca! Your post gives me hope. I, too, am treading water. But trying to enrich my life anyway.
From: What are the roots that clutch, what branches grow / Out of this stony rubbish? | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
arborman
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posted 16 September 2004 06:32 PM      Profile for arborman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rufus Polson:

To the contrary, I think Chomsky's formulation often gives people more credit than maybe they deserve--it contains the implicit assumption that if people knew different, they'd probably be acting on their information. Not sheep at all. I believe it was Rick Salutin's article a little while ago that argued that many people wouldn't act if they knew different, and in fact don't want to know different.

Yeah, I read that article as well. I just don't think that information is all that hard to find, or question. People cling to their schema in the face of contradictory evidence for a long time. The motivation doesn't exist (learned helplessness) to ensure the information you receive is accurate, so you drink the Koolaid - therefore sheep.

Don't get me wrong, I think Chomsky has a high opinion of people as well, but, as Salutin said, it is based on the assumption that they are getting bad information and would act if they got the good stuff. Implicit in that is the elitism of assuming that most people aren't amart enough to recognize when they are being fooled or misled. This form of elitism invariably applies to the people 'not in the room' (ie everyone present in such a discussion is an insider who gets it, but somehow the masses don't). With that elite assumption of better knowledge comes the projection of the idea that people are sheep.

I don't think people are sheep, but I don't think they are buying everything they are told to buy without actually, consciously deciding not to buck the trend. Meaning that people buy things in full or partial knowledge that they are responding to marketing. Current self-referential ads are a good example of that.

I feel an article coming on, methinks.


From: I'm a solipsist - isn't everyone? | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
bittersweet
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posted 16 September 2004 07:45 PM      Profile for bittersweet     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
People cling to their schema in the face of contradictory evidence for a long time. The motivation doesn't exist (learned helplessness) to ensure the information you receive is accurate, so you drink the Koolaid - therefore sheep.
People cling to their old schema for a better reason than learned helplessness (a concept which could just as easily be interpreted as an elitist projection, btw). New information implies the possibility of change, but also risk. As Chomsky points out, a reporter could avoid asking tough questions and continue to put food on the table for her family. Or, she could ask those questions and drive a cab. Her decision to continue putting food on the table is not motivated by learned helplessness. Big change is hard, especially if you are not the only one who has to deal with the consequences.

This is why there are so many everyday examples of fascinating contradictions in the way people behave. Who has not been astonished--and made hopeful--to discover some compassionate, typically progressive attitude within a person reputed to be a redneck? People do what they can, and are not all of a kind. (Chomsky also refers to the different results polls get when they're worded differently, but are esssentially about the same subject.)

[ 16 September 2004: Message edited by: bittersweet ]

[ 16 September 2004: Message edited by: bittersweet ]


From: land of the midnight lotus | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged

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