I hate the glitter in his eyes, and that little gleeful look he gets on his face while speaking. Creep.

I don't think so - but whatever he's on is probably bad for you.

I can't believe this guy. He wants to respect individuals yet "preserve" marriage as it is.

America must stay a nation of bigots because that is our strength.

Hey! Did you see when he just told "the troops" that Ashley Pearson wants to tell the troops that she believes in them, that they cut to a shot of a couple of the troops in the audience? The first shot of the first couple of troops had the one guy not clapping and staring with a deadpan look, and the one beside him half-heartedly applauding, no smile, nothing.

Well anyhow, that's all folks. God bless America. With a fucking chimp like that for a President, they're going to need all the blessings they can get.

[ 20 January 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]

As Air Farce says,

And yeah, I can relate to the yelling at the television thing. My cats heard a few choice words tonight.

[ 20 January 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Michelle:
There was a woman that I didn't recognize (and I forget her name - Elana something-or-other maybe?)

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quote:

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Did you watch the Democratic response to the SOTU address that just ended now? I watched it on CBS.

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And oh man, it's so true. She really can't read off a teleprompter. She looked startled through the whole speech.

I love that doctored SOTU clip that was going around the internet for a while after the address from - was it last year or the year before? Anyhow, I hope someone does something similar this year with chimpy.

[ 21 January 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]

[ 21 January 2004: Message edited by: Eauz ]

quote:

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How do you hate Bush himself?

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He read the crap, didn't he? In order for me to gain respect for the smirking chimp, he would have had to say this:

"Ladies and gentlemen, I had a speech prepared, but I think I'll just wing this one. Our economy is in a shambles. We've only reached 1/20th of our job target, which was set awfully low as it is. That's just shameful. It seems that the Republican economic model is failing, as the only 'recovery' is in a few sectors on Wall Street and in the pocketbooks of CEOs. The average American is seeing diddly bupkis. So I'm going to take this opportunity to fire all of my economic advisors, and replace them with well-read and published social democrats.

The War in Iraq is a failure, too. Sure, we removed Saddam Hussein, but we had no plan to deal with the predictable anarchy that followed the fall of the Ba'athists. Quite an oversight, I'd say. I've fired the two chief instigators of this conflict, as they've shown their incompetence. Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz don't know it, but the plane they're own should touch down in La Hague within the hour. They think that they are headed to Mumbai to lead an attack on the World Social Forum.*smirk* They will be charged with crimes against humanity, as will Saddam Hussein. I've asked Kofi Annan to send the UN into Iraq, with no strings attached, so that order and freedom can be restored properly to the Iraqi people as quickly as possible.

Next year, you guys should probably vote Democrat or, even better, Green. We Republicans have really fucked the dog on this whole governance thing."

[ 21 January 2004: Message edited by: Sarcasmobri ]

quote:

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Sarcasmobri, tell me, if you are the leader of a super power country, are you going to show the public that you are vulnerable in anyway?

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I may disagree strongly with, say, Dennis Kucinich or Al Sharpton, but I don't hate them. I don't hate anyone outside the truly depraved (KKK leaders, terrorist masterminds, etc.).

It just sounds pathological to me, and to many others besides. Bush is a very flawed leader, but the kind of hatred he engenders is all out of proportion to what he has done. Iraq is at worst a mixed blessing. What else do people hate so much? The deficit? The senior's drug-care policies? Amnesty for Mexican illegal immigrants? Faith-based charities?

Softwood, steel, fisheries. Where I'm from softwood has devastated the economy, as a result of an illegal tariff. Pure protectionism.

I don't hate Bush, I'd probably enjoy having a beer with him. However, I think he is uniquely unsuited for the position he is in, and surrounded by dangerous lunatics. I don't hate my next door neighbour either, but he'd make a terrible president.

Oops! I almost forgot. I hate David Frum too, because he is a racist pile of crap who gets far more airtime than he deserves. He also thinks that the ends justify the means, and that people who don't accept his ideas are somehow inferior. He also makes me yell at the TV, and I always require a shower after listening to his garbage.

[ 21 January 2004: Message edited by: Sarcasmobri ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Non-partisan partisan:
I missed the speech because I had an important game of dominoes but did anyone see this Moveon.org ad during the SOTU?

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I agreed with him on nearly point though my wife and I cringed at every mention of new spending.

His views on Single Sex mariage were not that far out there and i do not see how anyone other than radicals of either side can be upset at the President's middle-of-the-road stance. Bush continued the 90s policy of leaving such issues up to individual states. What Bush did rail against was judicial activism which should be the purview of the President of the United States of America.

His migrant workers program is far preferable to amnesty, which it is not, and mass deportation, which it avoids.

HSA (Health Savings Accounts) are the way to go, particularly when the records of socialized/nationalized/single-payer systems have been so dreadfully abyssmal.

PSA (Personal Savings Accounts) are also a wonderful way to wean Americans off off social security which pays too little, leaves out most minorities, and is uninheritable.

The PSA program works in Chile and is seeming to work in Great Britain.

I do not care for Bush's faith based programs mainly becasue the money he is handing out to private institutions does not belong to the government. Particularly to be used for this purpose. Why not just give a tax credit for charitiable giving?
It amounts to the same thing, it would increase the coffers of charitable institutions and it would negate the image of church and state congregation.

Bush's jobs training plans seem perfect for a Free-market economy but we will see, won't we.

Making the tax cuts permanent would be nice but I would rather the US go to a flatter tax (similar to India's) or Federal sales tax system similar tot he Fair Tax Act of 2003.

It should also come as no surprise to other readers that I supported and still do support the War in Iraq. Bush made some good points but should have beaten everyone about the head and shoulders with David Kay's Interim Report from the ISG.

quote:

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Originally posted by kiowa:
there seems to be more hate directed at the President of the United States than is directed toward people like Saddam Hussein or Kim Jong Il.

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OK, let's rectify that then:

Saddam BAD! BAD, BAD, BAD, SUPER BAD!!!
Kim Jong-Il: You SUCK!! Bad man! BAD!!!

That good enough for you, Kiowa? Fine. On with the topic at hand.

For the record, I don't particularly hate Bush -- he's just a ventriloquist's dummy, after all. I find his speaking style monumentally annoying and irritating -- listening to him is like having the flesh slowly peeled off my bones by demons. But my hate is reserved for the words he speaks, the policies he pitches, and the horrible consequences which will flow from those policies out there in the real world. Not him. He isn't worth the energy.

quote:

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I am very curious as to why Bush creates such a "nutty" (excuse the term)response from non-Americans. Why do most of you even care?

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The guy is quite obviously mentally retarded. He has the emotional development of a 10 year old. He is a functionally illiterate bully with a substance abuse problem. He is a fundamentalist whack job who claims God talks to him. And he has his hands on the button that could destroy the world. That is why we care.

I did write a long and spiteful rant about how anyone who supports Bush actually hates America, but then I realized that you are probably just pulling a fast one. Since no person who has measurable brain activity could really support that moron, I guess you are just trying to get a rise out of us. Good one, man. Had me going.

quote:

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Originally posted by Jingles:

The guy is quite obviously mentally retarded. He has the emotional development of a 10 year old. He is a functionally illiterate bully with a substance abuse problem. He is a fundamentalist whack job who claims God talks to him. And he has his hands on the button that could destroy the world. That is why we care.

I did write a long and spiteful rant about how anyone who supports Bush actually hates America, but then I realized that you are probably just pulling a fast one. Since no person who has measurable brain activity could really support that moron, I guess you are just trying to get a rise out of us. Good one, man. Had me going.

Besides, I've run out of adjectives for "stupid".

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quote:

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The amount of pure rage and hatred on this thread is alarming. I am no fan of George Bush, but the fact is there seems to be more hate directed at the President of the United States than is directed toward people like Saddam Hussein or Kim Jong Il.

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Many-a-time, we've explained that the monolithic left was complaining about Saddam back when he was sharing hot tub time with Rumsfeld. You choose to ignore this fact, or worse, excuse it by blaming the Red Menace (TM). A cursory reading of HRW will show that Kim Jong Il has never been given a pass.

Oh, and Catus: You should go back and read Bush's other SOTU speeches. In every one, he made big promises to Americans which have yet to materialize. He even promised that a stockpile of WMD (including ready-to-launch nuclear weapons!) would be found last year. He also promised a spate of internal programs which never materialized. This is a pattern with the chimp: Say one thing, do another. In fact, based on the promises made in this SOTU, I'm going to make some predictions for this year:

Cuts to law enforcement budgets.

Lower real wages for workers (i.e. an increase in non-union, Walmart jobs and a decrease in unionized manufacturing sector jobs).

Standardized testing results resulting in even worse underfinancing for inner-city schools.

Increased terror alerts and incidents, with a focus on 'soft' targets.

More incidents of innocent people being locked up sans trial or charge, because they are darkish.

No capture of Emmanuel Goldstein (OBL).

A puppet regime followed by bloody civil war in Iraq.

No delivery of the prisoner re-integration program.

quote:

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Originally posted by Sarcasmobri:
He even promised that a stockpile of WMD (including ready-to-launch nuclear weapons!) would be found last year.

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... on American military bases and vessels around the world. It is wrong to have WMDs, as any Bushite will tell you. Let's start with sanctions and build up to an invasion, folks.

[ 22 January 2004: Message edited by: albireo ]

quote:

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He even promised that a stockpile of WMD (including ready-to-launch nuclear weapons!) would be found last year.

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The body of the SOTU of 2003:

http://www.newsaic.com/ressou2003.html#iraq

He never mentioned finding piles of WMD, ready to launch nuclear missiles or anything similar to that. You have lied.

Perhaps Al Franken should write a book about you.

Here are the most similar matches found in the 2003 SOTU

quote:

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He pursued chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons, even while inspectors were in his country. Nothing to date has restrained him from his pursuit of these weapons -- not economic sanctions, not isolation from the civilized world, not even cruise missile strikes on his military facilities

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No mention of ready to fire Nukes.

Liar.

quote:

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The United Nations concluded in 1999 that Saddam Hussein had biological weapons sufficient to produce over 25,000 liters of anthrax -- enough doses to kill several million people. He hasn't accounted for that material. He's given no evidence that he has destroyed it.

The United Nations concluded that Saddam Hussein had materials sufficient to produce more than 38,000 liters of botulinum toxin -- enough to subject millions of people to death by respiratory failure. He hadn't accounted for that material. He's given no evidence that he has destroyed it.

Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent. In such quantities, these chemical agents could also kill untold thousands. He's not accounted for these materials. He has given no evidence that he has destroyed them.

U.S. intelligence indicates that Saddam Hussein had upwards of 30,000 munitions capable of delivering chemical agents. Inspectors recently turned up 16 of them -- despite Iraq's recent declaration denying their existence. Saddam Hussein has not accounted for the remaining 29,984 of these prohibited munitions. He's given no evidence that he has destroyed them

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Materials and munitions are not "promises of piles of WMD"

Liar.

quote:

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The International Atomic Energy Agency confirmed in the 1990s that Saddam Hussein had an advanced nuclear weapons development program, had a design for a nuclear weapon and was working on five different methods of enriching uranium for a bomb. For more on what was known of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction before access was denied to international inspectors in 1998, go here.
The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa

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again,

Liar.

quote:

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This threat is new; America's duty is familiar. Throughout the 20th century, small groups of men seized control of great nations, built armies and arsenals, and set out to dominate the weak and intimidate the world. In each case, their ambitions of cruelty and murder had no limit. In each case, the ambitions of Hitlerism, militarism, and communism were defeated by the will of free peoples, by the strength of great alliances, and by the might of the United States of America. (Applause.)

Now, in this century, the ideology of power and domination has appeared again, and seeks to gain the ultimate weapons of terror. Once again, this nation and all our friends are all that stand between a world at peace, and a world of chaos and constant alarm. Once again, we are called to defend the safety of our people, and the hopes of all mankind. And we accept this responsibility. (Applause.)

America is making a broad and determined effort to confront these dangers. We have called on the United Nations to fulfill its charter and stand by its demand that Iraq disarm.

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I don't know how anyone could read that as saying "Iraq has weapons of mass distruction, and America must go in and root them out." My bad.

Wait! There's more!

quote:

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Twelve years ago, Saddam Hussein faced the prospect of being the last casualty in a war he had started and lost. To spare himself, he agreed to disarm of all weapons of mass destruction. For the next 12 years, he systematically violated that agreement. He pursued chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons, even while inspectors were in his country. Nothing to date has restrained him from his pursuit of these weapons -- not economic sanctions, not isolation from the civilized world, not even cruise missile strikes on his military facilities.

Almost three months ago, the United Nations Security Council gave Saddam Hussein his final chance to disarm. He has shown instead utter contempt for the United Nations, and for the opinion of the world. The 108 U.N. inspectors were sent to conduct -- were not sent to conduct a scavenger hunt for hidden materials across a country the size of California. The job of the inspectors is to verify that Iraq's regime is disarming. It is up to Iraq to show exactly where it is hiding its banned weapons, lay those weapons out for the world to see, and destroy them as directed. Nothing like this has happened.

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He didn't specifically promise to find the weapons, but he sure said that they'd be there. Or maybe in Syria. Perhaps on three Egyptian freighters on the high seas?

By the way, Great Britian's intelligence agencies and parliament still stand by their assessment of the Uranium-from-Africa story which was brought to their attention by the French. Hard to tell who was lying there.

quote:

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Great Britian's intelligence agencies and parliament still stand by their assessment of the Uranium-from-Africa story

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[ 22 January 2004: Message edited by: Catus ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Catus:
horrible consequences? granted the Deaths of over 10 thousand Iraqi civilians is not a wonderful thing but what other "horrible consequences" have come out of the Bush Whitehouse?

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quote:

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Twelve years ago, Saddam Hussein faced the prospect of being the last casualty in a war he had started and lost. To spare himself, he agreed to disarm of all weapons of mass destruction. For the next 12 years, he systematically violated that agreement. He pursued chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons, even while inspectors were in his country. Nothing to date has restrained him from his pursuit of these weapons -- not economic sanctions, not isolation from the civilized world, not even cruise missile strikes on his military facilities.

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quote:

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Throughout the 20th century, small groups of men seized control of great nations, built armies and arsenals, and set out to dominate the weak and intimidate the world.

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Sarcasmobri. So you are not going to appologize for your lie or even admit to it?

Slim. The Neo-cons have hardly taken over the government of the USA (I assume you are expressing your distate for Neo-conservatives and their ideals).

Listen to the US congress wherein both houses are majority Republican. Both arms of the Legislature complain at the drunken spending of the Whitehouse (which is strange as Congress controls the pursestrings).Neo-cons are not adverse to social spending, to welfare programs or pretty much anything that might lead to the "Hayekian road to serfdom" (Kristol).

Most Republicans despise bloated government, wasteful spending, and expansive nationalization/socialization of the economy. Paleo-cons , Social conservatives, Moderate Conservatives, and Libertarian Conservatives make up the majority of the Republican's serving in office.

Yes, the Neo-cons have quite a few ears listening to them in the Executive and even some members of the Cabinet are self confessed Neo-cons or would be comfortable with the moniker.

quote:

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Originally posted by Catus:

Slim. The Neo-cons have hardly taken over the government of the USA (I assume you are expressing your distate for Neo-conservatives and their ideals).

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I started reading Carl Sagan's The Demon-Haunted World on Tuesday evening and this quote (the first words in the book) sort of jumped out at me. I wonder why.

Here's what I wanted to hear in Bush's speech:

"My fellow Americans: your president, this administration, and all the agencies of the United States government are joined in a common purpose. This common purpose, quite simply, is the defence of the American way of life. Your freedom to live the life to which we've all become accustomed depends on the resolve of those whom you have entrusted with this great responsibility--and we understand this. Our way of life depends on our power. So let there be no doubt--America will use any means and any tool at its disposal, at home and abroad, in the pursuit of this nobel cause.

Look folks, here's the thing: A secure, long-term, uninterrupted supply of oil is absolutely necessary for us to continue doing the things we love to do. It might even be the number one, most importantist strategic issue we face over the next 30 years. Trust me. We have the experts and they've run the numbers and this big old world for some reason doesn't seem to be getting any more secure, so...

We invaded and now occupy Iraq. Iraq has just a boatload of oil and also happens to be geographically located in a real sweet spot which is going to make further actions to secure even more boatloads of oil a whole lot easier. I know this will sound a bit drastic to some, and there will be the naysayers who'll whine 'You can't do that,' but the bottom line here, folks, is that you hired me to do a job and this is how we think it should be done.

And hey, don't forget about the fortunate side effects of our present actions--things we can feel good about while our military makes the world safe for Americans--things like nabbing that rat-bastard Sadaam.

Oh, and by the way--we've done a whole bunch of other shit to protect America that we haven't told you about. But don't worry, same thing. Your future's in good hands."
--------------

I'd love to see Dubya tell it like it is. Why are they so reluctant to broadcast the simple, easy to understand truths about their motives?

quote:

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I am very curious as to why Bush creates such a "nutty" (excuse the term)response from non-Americans. Why do most of you even care?

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[ 22 January 2004: Message edited by: Sarcasmobri ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Catus:
Well it should be no surprise that i loved the SOTU and i do genuinely like President Bush.

(snipped laundry list of right-wing masturbatory fantasies)

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quote:

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Liberty Lovers? Anti-Authoritarian?

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quote:

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Inside the United States, where the war began, we must continue to give our homeland security and law enforcement personnel every tool they need to defend us. And one of those essential tools is the Patriot Act, which allows federal law enforcement to better share information, to track terrorists, to disrupt their cells, and to seize their assets. For years, we have used similar provisions to catch embezzlers and drug traffickers. If these methods are good for hunting criminals, they are even more important for hunting terrorists.

Key provisions of the Patriot Act are set to expire next year. The terrorist threat will not expire on that schedule. Our law enforcement needs this vital legislation to protect our citizens. You need to renew the Patriot Act.

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quote:

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Twelve years ago, Saddam Hussein faced the prospect of being the last casualty in a war he had started and lost. To spare himself, he agreed to disarm of all weapons of mass destruction. For the next 12 years, he systematically violated that agreement. He pursued chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons, even while inspectors were in his country. Nothing to date has restrained him from his pursuit of these weapons -- not economic sanctions, not isolation from the civilized world, not even cruise missile strikes on his military facilities.

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and

quote:

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Now, in this century, the ideology of power and domination has appeared again, and seeks to gain the ultimate weapons of terror. Once again, this nation and all our friends are all that stand between a world at peace, and a world of chaos and constant alarm. Once again, we are called to defend the safety of our people, and the hopes of all mankind. And we accept this responsibility. (Applause.)

America is making a broad and determined effort to confront these dangers. We have called on the United Nations to fulfill its charter and stand by its demand that Iraq disarm.

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In the grand tradition of deniers and dupes everywhere, Catus is obviously reading what he wants into these statements. Bush didn't say directly in the earlier SOTU that they would find WMDs. What the Dupe conveniently forgets, however, is that Bush, Powell, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Fleischer, and others did make this claim on several other occasions. There were clear sites where WMDs were deployed within Iraq (according to the cast listed above, and the dupes). There were boats on the high seas. There were trains heading to Syria. There were trailers full of badness out in the desert.

Of course, now we know that all of this was all unreliable assertion, based on selective intelligence that was weakly sourced, at best. The American public was duped into thinking Iraq was a clear danger, partly from the excerpts of the SOTU quoted above.

quote:

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In order to comment on world politics, one should make an honest effort to connect the messages put forth from one speech to another. Anyone who refuses to connect the dots and form a bigger picture is a fool. And a dupe.

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This, unfortunately, has not had much of a tradition in American public discourse over the last (years? decades?), where debate is constantly side-tracked by a mechanistic approach to analysing language, and drawing conclusions as to its real meaning.

The constant refrain (...what were his exact words? what were those 16 words? show me the exact paragraph where he stated this, etc. etc.) divorced from all other context (...history, experience, inter-textuality, body-language, tone of voice etc. etc.), all ways we humans use to determine what "someone meant", is used to exhaust and confuse everyone into believing almost anything.

It's something that works particularly well on the average American (...and can easily work on anyone else, if we're not careful).

[ 23 January 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Catus:
Paladin. If you cannot debate the point I make then bugger off to your momma.

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Catas, My point was that your moral outrage appears to be limited to Sarcasmobri's "lie". A tempest in a teapot. And by the way, thanks for posting excerpts from Bush's speech of 2003. We can once again see what a lying weasel he is.

quote:

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Go ahead, George, and lie to me. Lie to my dog. Lie to my sister. But don't you ever lie to my kids.

Deep into your State of the Siege lecture, long after sensible adults had turned off the tube or kicked in the screen, you came after our children. "By passing the No Child Left Behind Act," you said, "We are regularly testing every child ... and making sure they have better options when schools are not performing."

You said it ... and then that little tongue came out; that weird way you stick your tongue out between your lips like the little kid who knows he's fibbing. Like a snake licking a rat. I saw that snakey tongue dart out and I thought, "He knows."

And what you know, Mr. Bush, is this: you've ordered this testing to hunt down, identify and target for destruction the hopes of millions of children you find too expensive, too heavy a burden, to educate.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Catus:
Conway, I proved, in abundancy, that Sarcasmobri lied above. Talk about intellectual dishonety.

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