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Author Topic: Layton has an old-fashioned socialist mentality that will not work in this century.
KenS
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posted 28 September 2008 05:04 PM      Profile for KenS     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That is from the lips of Stephane Dion today.

Gotta love it.


From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bookish Agrarian
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posted 28 September 2008 05:07 PM      Profile for Bookish Agrarian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes I heard that too. It reminded me for all the world of David Peterson. And all that did was help him lose credibility. You would think Bud Bob would have warned him about such 1950s silly language.
From: Home of this year's IPM | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
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posted 28 September 2008 05:11 PM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Boy, really old-fashioned.

Layton was proposing to restore corporate tax levels to the levels set by Paul Martin as Finance Minister and continued by Paul Martin as Prime Minister.

Remember him? The old-fashioned socialist? Whose high tax levels were dangerous to the Canadian economy?

Why is the press letting Dion get away with such obvious nonsense?

[ 28 September 2008: Message edited by: Wilf Day ]


From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cameron W
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posted 28 September 2008 05:15 PM      Profile for Cameron W   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What exactly was he referring to? Is it about nanny style big government taking care of Canadians? What exactly is the charge?

I dislike these sweeping general statements, like "Kill the economy".

Yeesh.


From: Left Coast | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
RedRover
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posted 28 September 2008 05:20 PM      Profile for RedRover     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Wilf Day:
Boy, really old-fashioned.

Layton was proposing to restore corporate tax levels to the levels set by Paul Martin as Finance Minister and continued by Paul Martin as Prime Minister.

Remember him? The old-fashioned socialist? Whose high tax levels were dangerous to the Canadian economy?

Why is the press letting Dion get away with such obvious nonsense?

[ 28 September 2008: Message edited by: Wilf Day ]


This is an excellent point Wilf. I've been having trouble with how the platform is being framed thus far. That point, if used as a retort, should dispel some general concerns among independents that what the NDP is proposing is radical.

Nice. Hope it is used.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 28 September 2008 05:28 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Neoliberalism defined from a social democratic perspective

A left turn on the road to Rome Jim Stanford

And economic shock therapist Jeffrey Sachs now says that there is a valid alternative to U.S.-style flexible labour markets

I think Stephane Dion and the Liberals actually went out of style about 25 years ago. Liberals need a new mojo. Yeeeah ba-by!

[ 28 September 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 28 September 2008 05:56 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
KenS, just a suggestion.

You might want to change your thread head to read

"Dion says: Layton has an old-fashioned socialist mentality...etc".

The title as written makes it sound, until you get inside the thread, as if that's actually YOUR opinion.


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
KenS
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posted 28 September 2008 06:03 PM      Profile for KenS     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wouldn't fit in the thread title box.

It could have been just another entry in the "liberals are desperate" thread.

But I just loved / love the theatre of it.

Form before substance.


From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
ggs
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posted 28 September 2008 06:11 PM      Profile for ggs        Edit/Delete Post
The NDP often misses the opportunity to explain the business side of its policies.

If a company isn't profitable, the tax rate is irrelevant to them; because, they aren't paying any taxes.

You have to create an environment where a company can actually make a profit; before, you can start worrying about whether the tax on that profit is too high.

That's where infrastructure investments, education investments, R & D investments, public medicare investments, etc. come into play. Making sure that the infrastructure, the technology and the skilled, healthy, productive, workforce needed to operate efficiently and actually generate a profit is in place comes first.

There's another point that's often missed.

No matter how low taxes are, you can't make money drilling for oil if there isn't any.

Inco is going to go where the nickel is. Exxon is going to go where the oil is. Debeers is going to go where the diamonds are.

It doesn't matter how much you lower taxes, Inco isn't going to open a mine in Calgary and
Exxon isn't going to drill for oil in Sudbury.

So long as there's oil in Alberta, Exxon will be there. It's the oil, not the taxes, that matter!!!

All of this fits with NDP policy; but, they never bother to point out.

If the NDP would stop for a minute to point this out, they wouldn't leave themselves open to such rhetoric.

[ 28 September 2008: Message edited by: ggs ]

[ 28 September 2008: Message edited by: ggs ]


From: Ontario | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
gram swaraj
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posted 28 September 2008 06:37 PM      Profile for gram swaraj   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ggs:
You have to create an environment where a company can actually make a profit; before, you can start worrying about whether the tax on that profit is too high.

That's where you get a low minimum wage, lax or non-existent environmental regulations, no worker rights to organize...


From: mon pays ce n'est pas un pays, c'est la terre | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 28 September 2008 06:43 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I came into this thread expecting to see it started by Liberaler or someone like that.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
NorthReport
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posted 28 September 2008 06:46 PM      Profile for NorthReport     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Me too.

It is said that the people on the left are their own worst enemies.

[ 28 September 2008: Message edited by: NorthReport ]


From: From sea to sea to sea | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 28 September 2008 06:57 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You have to create an environment where a company can actually make a profit; before, you can start worrying about whether the tax on that profit is too high.

If a company doesn't make a profit, it doesn't pay taxes. It is not up to government to ensure every guy who wants to go into business makes money and never loses any. We only do that for speculators and banks.

From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
adma
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posted 28 September 2008 07:05 PM      Profile for adma     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Lest we forget...
Chow

Chow Chow

From: toronto | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
djelimon
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posted 28 September 2008 07:12 PM      Profile for djelimon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This kind of mirrors the feedback I get from people I know. I go to the website and other than some video planks, I'm not seeing much in the way of an economic model. It might well be buried or spread out among the various links, but I think a coherent explanation of what the NDP wants for Canadians in terms of bread and/or butter acquisition is not readily apparent. Don't get me wrong, I'm somewhat familiar with what social democracy/democratic socialism are about, but most people don't really.

My wife is in the CAW, but she is not voting NDP because she feels Layton will boost auto production in Ontario, damaging the environment, to appease unions.

Everyone else I know is either a small business owner or an office worker (I'm an office worker).

But no matter who, when I talk to non-NDP-ers about anything, unions come up.

I think unions are necessary and have a long and mostly noble tradition, but I also think they don't mean they same thing they used to, and to most people they mean nothing.

Layton's rhetoric often refers to 'working Canadians', and the connotation most pick up IME is "blue collar".

Ironically, I think office workers are going through some of the same issues as pre-union factory workers were, and could use a bit of organizing, however, most people don't make that association.

In sum, I think if Jack could alter his code to include the middle class in his rhetoric, and spoke to their bread and butter, he might get more traction with that sector.

Small business owners otoh, I dunno.


From: Hamilton, Ontario | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
writer
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posted 28 September 2008 07:13 PM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
adma, what are you getting at?
From: tentative | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
adma
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posted 28 September 2008 07:18 PM      Profile for adma     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Just spoofing the last election's Mike Klander Chow/Chow Chow scandal--and by extension, Liberal anti-NDP tactics...
From: toronto | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Interested Observer
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posted 28 September 2008 07:55 PM      Profile for Interested Observer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cameron W:
What exactly was he referring to? Is it about nanny style big government taking care of Canadians? What exactly is the charge?

I dislike these sweeping general statements, like "Kill the economy".

Yeesh.


This was from the cross-country checkup clip I posted a link to in the Pr topic. I didn't listen to the whole thing myself, but thats where you can find the context, I think.


From: BC | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged
RonaldReagan
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posted 28 September 2008 08:40 PM      Profile for RonaldReagan     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
As a Lib, I have advocated for along time, that in order to kill the NDP's challenge of Centre-Left votes, we must use SOCIALIST the same way Republicans use LIBERAL...
From: Canada | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
peterjcassidy
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posted 28 September 2008 08:51 PM      Profile for peterjcassidy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Saw it. Loved it. Dion is done like dinner. Go Jack GO.
From: Screaming in language no-one understands.. | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 28 September 2008 08:52 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Liberals shifted to the right 25 years ago. Phoniest majority ever in 1997. They didn't win 24% of the eligible vote in 2006, nearly same as the Harpers. And now the wheels have come off.

For all the big money support from big banking and big business over the years and given free air play with news media and radio, the two old line parties appear beatable today. Even with our obsolete electoral system invented before electricity.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Malcolm
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posted 28 September 2008 10:29 PM      Profile for Malcolm   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
Liberals shifted to the right 25 years ago.

That would presume the Liberals were something other than right wing 26 and more years ago.

It would be more accurate to say the Liberals feinted to the left 50 years ago.

Cats is cats, no matter how hard they try to squeak.


From: Regina, SK | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Doug
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posted 29 September 2008 01:24 AM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The NDP platform this time is not, in fact, vastly left of previous Liberal "Red Books". The difference is that the NDP means it.
From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 29 September 2008 03:10 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
MUN Prof.
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posted 29 September 2008 03:17 AM      Profile for MUN Prof.     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
At this point, it appears the Liberals will say anything to save their skins, ANYTHING.

Here in St. John's East, the Liberal candidate's proposal to dig a $100 million tunnel to Bell Island, makes the Alaskan "bridge to nowhere" look like a worthwhile investment.


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KenS
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posted 29 September 2008 04:56 AM      Profile for KenS     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If you want to watch for signs that Dion is completely on his own- whether it be not listening to anyone or thay've stopped trying with him- then look to see if he makes anything like that strong an attck on Layton in the debates.

A sure no win proposition for him. But we'll see.


From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
RonaldReagan
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posted 29 September 2008 09:36 AM      Profile for RonaldReagan     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, take it from me. The trouble with Dion is his idealism. He really believes that Canadians will believe his "plan." All our backroomers are pulling his hair out at his inability to go negative all year, and to listen to the plan of campaigning on simple, tangible messaging, attacking the Socialists and the US Style right wingers, and offering Canadians a middle path. No, instead he offers this green shit, on the environment, which is not an important issue (at least not electorally). If Chretien was here, the best damn politician ever, we'd have won.
From: Canada | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Mojoroad1
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posted 29 September 2008 10:17 AM      Profile for Mojoroad1     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by RonaldReagan:
Well, take it from me. The trouble with Dion is his idealism. He really believes that Canadians will believe his "plan." All our backroomers are pulling his hair out at his inability to go negative all year, and to listen to the plan of campaigning on simple, tangible messaging, attacking the Socialists and the US Style right wingers, and offering Canadians a middle path. No, instead he offers this green shit, on the environment, which is not an important issue (at least not electorally). If Chretien was here, the best damn politician ever, we'd have won.

Wow.

Ronald, I don't blame you in the slightest for your frustration. Problem is, the Liberal record shows otherwise. Your party gave the Haperiods a default majority. Also your party is so fractured, after this election you get to do it all over again (leadership race, election in a few years). Who do you think will save the Libs? Iggy?


From: Muskoka | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
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posted 29 September 2008 10:26 AM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I love it when I hear the Libs saying that the economy will collapse if they don't institute a major $50 Billion dollar tax cut for corporate Canada. Usually they are not stupid enough to talk like that until after the election.


I love it when the reality that the Libs and Con are virtually indistinguishable is highlighted by the Liberal leader.

Dion Supports $50 Billion Dollar Tax Give Away to Corporations. Yup we can run with that for the next two weeks.


From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 29 September 2008 10:33 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And especially since that bastion of tax cuts, the USA, is on the verge of a big-ass blow-out Depression precisely because of giveaways to big corporations of all kinds, tax and regulatory.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bookish Agrarian
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posted 29 September 2008 10:35 AM      Profile for Bookish Agrarian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by RonaldReagan:
As a Lib, I have advocated for along time, that in order to kill the NDP's challenge of Centre-Left votes, we must use SOCIALIST the same way Republicans use LIBERAL...

Oh I hope you win that argument some day. Every single time that claim was made it would drive votes to the NDP from non-idealogical voters (the vast majority). Ever single time it was tried it back fired. Don't believe it - ask your new pal Bob about David.


From: Home of this year's IPM | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Willowdale Wizard
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posted 29 September 2008 10:36 AM      Profile for Willowdale Wizard   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Dion's a bright guy. He knows the difference between social democracy and socialism, but he's willing to use the tag of "socialism" as a smear against the NDP. It's the politics of fear.
From: england (hometown of toronto) | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
djelimon
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posted 29 September 2008 12:25 PM      Profile for djelimon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Willowdale Wizard:
Dion's a bright guy. He knows the difference between social democracy and socialism, but he's willing to use the tag of "socialism" as a smear against the NDP. It's the politics of fear.

This is why I think the NDP needs to re-brand itself.

Nobody thinks of Scandinavian countries or Europe here when they hear the term socialist, even though many are run by parties which are (like the NDP) part of Socialist International. That's because most people don't know about the track record globally.

The enemies of the party obviously exploit that with a bit of red-baiting, but it's no use complaining about it. Instead, the NDP must define themselves to the voting public. Show examples of their philosophy in action and working.

And I also think there is a need to get some economists on TV. Not Chicago or Alberta school, obviously. I remember the Ontario Elections with Hampton on Global loudly proclaiming that public run utilities beat privately owned ones, alluding to unspecified studies. He was correct, but the news guy just smirked and didn't say anything. The optics weren't good, because he was a politician. The smirk was code for "Oh, he's just a kook." although anyone who follows this stuff would know he was correct. An economist challenging the right-wing orthodoxy would probably force a counter-challenge, which then opens up the debate to facts. And of course the dialogue then adds mindshare.

Of course, this media manipulation takes money and time. I have an automated donation to the NDP already, but I'd be willing to give more if they were to earmark it for stuff like that. An ongoing, low-level permanent campaign.

[ 29 September 2008: Message edited by: djelimon ]


From: Hamilton, Ontario | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 29 September 2008 12:34 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Willowdale Wizard:
Dion's a bright guy. He knows the difference between social democracy and socialism, but he's willing to use the tag of "socialism" as a smear against the NDP. It's the politics of fear.

Saskatchewan Liberals did the same thing with Douglas and the CCF. They referred to the CCF as Bolsheviks and said that if the socialists had their way, the government would be right there in doctors' examination rooms with Canadians and invading their privacy. They said the CCF were full of Eastern European types and commies. Little did the Liberals realize who their constituents were at the time.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
JeffWells
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posted 29 September 2008 12:38 PM      Profile for JeffWells     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
About "socialism" as a smear, I like how Jack handled himself
in this interview a couple of years ago:

quote:
OP: Critics of the NDP often describe the party as being socialist, with the term intended as an insult.

I was just wondering if "socialist" is still a label that you personally are comfortable with.

LAYTON: Sure. I mean it’s sometimes called democratic socialism or it’s sometimes called social-democracy, there are quite lengthy debates that can be had the order of the words, and which words exactly are chosen. But I’m very comfortable with the term because what we have in mind is an approach that puts the needs of people in the forefront, and recognizes that the way to meet some of those key needs is through a collective approach, in our healthcare system, early childhood care, education, care for seniors, some of those broad-brush approaches.


Embrace it, explain it. American liberals ran from their identity, and lost it.


From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
coeus
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posted 29 September 2008 01:34 PM      Profile for coeus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by RonaldReagan:
As a Lib, I have advocated for along time, that in order to kill the NDP's challenge of Centre-Left votes, we must use SOCIALIST the same way Republicans use LIBERAL...

Yes, to make it more evident that the Liberals are like the Conservatives and move the country more to the right. US political discourse is sickening in the way they dumb it down, and that you're in favour of this is unfortunate.


From: Canada | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged
ocsi
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posted 29 September 2008 04:24 PM      Profile for ocsi     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hmm. Jonathan Kay in the National Post seems to be blown away by Jack Layton.

Kay doesn't like Layton's socialism but says that Layton is an "impressive guy."


From: somewhere over the rainbow | Registered: Jan 2007  |  IP: Logged
enemy_of_capital
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posted 29 September 2008 05:18 PM      Profile for enemy_of_capital     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The fact that anyone would consider the term socialist an insult is beyond me. and whats with this idea that socialism as a doctrine is "outdated". first of all capitalism and their derivitive liberal-conservative elements are hundreds of years older than the socialist tradition can claim. I propose that we nationalize the liberal party and use it as a museum of political antiquity.
From: Mississauga | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged
Sean in Ottawa
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posted 29 September 2008 08:08 PM      Profile for Sean in Ottawa     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hello, Stockholm, are you there?
Can you do me one little favour?
Can you start calling Dion's party the so-called Liberal Party?

Indeed the Green's should not be called so called Greens-- they are at least Greenish. Maybe they are more the Green so-called Party as they are more Green than they are a party.
And as I said more Green than Dion's party is Liberal.

There, that was my semantic moment.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
RonaldReagan
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posted 29 September 2008 08:12 PM      Profile for RonaldReagan     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why don't just call them self the Socialist Party of Canada?
From: Canada | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
RevolutionPlease
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posted 29 September 2008 08:21 PM      Profile for RevolutionPlease     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by enemy_of_capital:
The fact that anyone would consider the term socialist an insult is beyond me. and whats with this idea that socialism as a doctrine is "outdated". first of all capitalism and their derivitive liberal-conservative elements are hundreds of years older than the socialist tradition can claim. I propose that we nationalize the liberal party and use it as a museum of political antiquity.

You need to post more, I add apprehendingly.



From: Aurora | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Doug
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posted 29 September 2008 08:52 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by RonaldReagan:
Why don't just call them self the Socialist Party of Canada?

Why don't the Liberals call themselves the Opportunist Entitlement Party? Things don't always say what they do on the box.


From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
janfromthebruce
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posted 29 September 2008 09:05 PM      Profile for janfromthebruce     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Funny about the picture in online edition of the Globe and Mail tonight: Looks like Jack had these voters in mind.

From: cow country | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 29 September 2008 09:28 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
RonaldReagan:

As a Lib, I have advocated for along time, that in order to kill the NDP's challenge of Centre-Left votes, we must use SOCIALIST the same way Republicans use LIBERAL...

------------------------------------
Fidel replied:
Saskatchewan Liberals did the same thing with Douglas and the CCF. They referred to the CCF as Bolsheviks and said that if the socialists had their way, the government would be right there in doctors' examination rooms with Canadians and invading their privacy. They said the CCF were full of Eastern European types and commies. Little did the Liberals realize who their constituents were at the time.


Dang; beat me to it again, comrade Fidel. It appears that RonaldReagan pines for some good ol' fashioned 1940s Liberal red-baiting.

I've mentioned this before around here, but I've had arguments about the NDP with Saskatchewan Liberals who wouldn't bat an eye while comparing Allen Blakeney's or Roy Romanow's government with the Soviet Union.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 29 September 2008 10:30 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Liberals and Tories have nothing new to offer except more second-hand ideology from the U.S - which is more dregulation and privatization ... and following the likes of Crazy George II into wars of conquest on the other side of the planet. Thanks so much for dragging us into the quagmire in Afghanistan, Liberals!!

And thanks even less for handing Toronto Omar Khadr, a 15 year-old boy at the time, over to an American military gulag at Gitmo to be tortured by the American gestapo for a third of his young life

It's the same ideology that first failed in America in 1929, and then again in 1985 Chile.

In fact after 25 years in test labs around the world, the neoliberal voodoo has failed in dozens of countries.

It's the same rotten ideology the likes of which is now failing in the very nation where the "new" Liberal capitalism was hatched a second time around in the same century, the USsA.

Canada can do a lot better than our two obsolete old line parties and their hand me down ideology. It's time Canadians voted NDP.

[ 29 September 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged

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