Let's just see if we can agree on the list.

I'll start with the all-stars on my home team:

1)Doctor K.
2)Lil' Dubbikins.
3)Ollie North
4)Elliott Abrams
5)Everyone on the faculty of the School of the Americas at Fort Benning, Georgia.
6)Cheney and Lil' Dubbikins.

[ 23 July 2008: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]

[ 23 July 2008: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]

[ 03 August 2008: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]

Actually, maybe we should just round up ALL of the intellectuals, and maybe re-educate them or something.

I'm not sure if the spirit of your list was to stick to North Americans but I'll nominate the following currently serving Presidents and Prime Ministers:

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Originally posted by reglafella:
Yes! Let's start arresting academics whose ideas we disagree with!

Actually, maybe we should just round up ALL of the intellectuals, and maybe re-educate them or something.

Great idea.

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Of course. Their graphs and charts and such are Weapons of Mass Destruction, correct? Only by imprisoning these monsters can we ensure that their barbaric equations will never again see the light of day!

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Of course. Their graphs and charts and such are Weapons of Mass Destruction, correct? Only by imprisoning these monsters can we ensure that their barbaric equations will never again see the light of day! - reglafella

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Ideas are more dangerous than guns. We don't allow our enemies to have guns. Why should we allow them to have ideas? - Joseph Stalin

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But among the most obvious ones for whom actual evidence exists would be David Addington, Donald Rumsfeld, John Yoo, and George Bush.

That is because they almost certainly conspired to commit torture on numerous persons.

Not only is that true, but the evidence is relatively easy to obtain, and does not rely on anything other than their own signed memos and, in one case, a Presidential Order.

Those interested in seeing how easily this evidence could be amassed should read Phillip Sands' book, "Torture Team".

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Originally posted by reglafella:
"No not all intellectuals only the ones who actively engage in subverting other countries economy on behalf of foreign interests."

Of course. Their graphs and charts and such are Weapons of Mass Destruction, correct? Only by imprisoning these monsters can we ensure that their barbaric equations will never again see the light of day!

Next, let's round up anyone with an obviously-read copy of The Wealth Of Nations!

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Chicago Boys in Chile

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The Chicago School of Economics got that chance for 16 years in Chile, under near-laboratory conditions. Between 1973 and 1989, a government team of economists trained at the University of Chicago dismantled or decentralized the Chilean state as far as was humanly possible. Their program included privatizing welfare and social programs, deregulating the market, liberalizing trade, rolling back trade unions, and rewriting its constitution and laws. And they did all this in the absence of the far-right's most hated institution: democracy.

The results were exactly what liberals predicted. Chile's economy became more unstable than any other in Latin America, alternately experiencing deep plunges and soaring growth. Once all this erratic behavior was averaged out, however, Chile's growth during this 16-year period was one of the slowest of any Latin American country. Worse, income inequality grew severe. The majority of workers actually earned less in 1989 than in 1973 (after adjusting for inflation), while the incomes of the rich skyrocketed. In the absence of market regulations, Chile also became one of the most polluted countries in Latin America. And Chile's lack of democracy was only possible by suppressing political opposition and labor unions under a reign of terror and widespread human rights abuses.

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Since I well recall the day that two Attorneys -General of the United States and a Vice President stepped into prison to serve their sentences during Watergate, I see nothing impossible achieving this same end for the above-named group.

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The two Attorneys-General who went to jail were Kleindienst and Mitchell.

The other two big players to go to jail were Haldeman and Erlichman, both of whom did not have Cabinet rank, but in reality exercised more power than anyone except Nixon himself.

And of course, a host of lesser players went to jail, too, including the legal counsel to the Preident, John Dean, Special Counsel Chuck Colson, and others.

Ya, my doctor tells me I have too much NCS (Normal Common Sense) and it's pressing up against my optic nerve.

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
Normal Common Sense - that's what tells us the Earth is flat.

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You go after Hitler, not his accountant. Go after Pinochet's corpse, not his advisors.

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True, under Stalin and Mao, the death penalty used to be given to "wreckers" and other undefined "economic criminals".

But that was just pointing away from the real authors of the economic wreckage, the leadership of the country.

But I thought the point of this thread was to avoid the Stalinist categories and deal with actual laws and actual potential prosecutions, but apparently not.

So we can just list all the capitalists, and shout "string them up!" to the diminishing group of acolytes.

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Originally posted by reglafella:
And you clearly named yourself after those annoying pricks who pretend the wind is blowing when it isn't. What of it?

But by all means, enlighten me. Start with a list of civilian war criminals who have never held office. Unwrap the mysteries of war crimes for us all.

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Originally posted by jeff house:
Obviously, economic advisors do not commit war crimes in any serious sense of the word.

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If they draw up a plan for using prisoners as slave labour, or for making death camps pay for themselves, or for handing out drilling licences after the invasion is over and the puppet regime is installed - what "serious sense" do you have in mind?

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True, under Stalin and Mao, the death penalty used to be given to "wreckers" and other undefined "economic criminals".

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1. Robert McNamara. Former US Secretary of Defense, helped kill approximately 2-3 million, mostly poor Vietnamese, Cambodians and Laotians. Not to mention a sizeable portion of the 58,000 dead US servicemen pressed into that war. Not to mention that equal number of US veterans who committed suicide in the years to follow. McNamara is an Elder Statesman now, walking around freely today.

2. Henry Kissinger. Former US Secretary of State, had a hand in the killings mentioned above. Plus condoned thousands of additional killings in Chile, under the sponsorship of US foreign policy. Won a Nobel Peace Prize for his efforts. Elder Statesman, walking around freely today.

3. Bill Clinton. Former, disgraced US President. Initiated bombing raids against Yugoslavia and Iraq, neither country able to defend itself, resulting in the deaths of thousands. Conducted punitive sanctions against Iraq, resulting in hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths. Presided during Waco Massacre and Oklahoma City Bombing, thinly-disguised war crimes against US citizens.. Elder Statesman, walking around freely today, amply rewarded for book deals and speaking engagements.

4. George HW Bush. Former super spy, former US President, the first to graduate from the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) into the presidency and bring lessons learned at CIA headquarters directly into US policy. While serving under Ronald Reagan, helped encourage the Iraq-Iran war, resulting in deaths of one million people, allowing US oil and arms dealers to profit greatly. During the 'Eighties, helped encourage US sponsored military dictators in Latin America, guilty of extermination of thousands of ordinary citizens, via US-trained "death squads." Conducted pre-emptive war with Panama, resulting in 1,000-4,000 deaths, simply to topple former CIA henchman and drug lord, Manuel Noriega. Elder Statesman, walking around freely today, basking in limelight.

5, Madeline Albright. Former US Secretary of State under Clinton. Condoned the punitive sanctions against Iraq that resulted in an estimated 500,000 deaths of children. Remarked that such sanctions were "worth it." Elder Stateswoman, walking around freely today.

6. George W. Bush. Two term US president, elected using electronic, "black box" voting methods that permit no verification of actual vote count. Conducted two pre-emptive wars, resulting in excess of 100,000 US. Iraqi and Afghani deaths. Condones the use of torture as US policy. Condones rejection of the Geneva Convention, becoming the first US president to openly do so. Considers the US Constitution "A Goddamned piece of paper." Embattled Statesman, walking around freely today.

7. Dick Cheney. Former US Secretary of Defense, and signator of the PNAC, and current Vice President. Accused mastermind of the 911 "terrorist" attack against the US (unproven), Cheney has been called "The Vice President For Torture" by the Washington Post. A staunch supporter of the Middle Eastern War Without End, Cheney, like Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld bears particular responsibility for the conduct of the war. Elder Statesman, walking around freely today.

8. Paul Wolfowitz. Former US Deputy Secretary of Defense and architect of the Middle Eastern War Without End. Casualties in two pre-emptive wars now exceed 100,000 deaths, not including the estimated 2,000+ US deaths and 15,000 wounded. Won a Presidential Medal of Freedom for his work and a promotion to the head of the World Bank. Elder Statesman, walking around freely today.

9. Donald Rumsfeld. US Secretary of Defense during the Middle Eastern War Without End. A signator of the PNAC document that calls for pre-emptive hostile acts of US imperialism conducted by overwhelming military means (War) against weaker nations possessing scarce resources. Aside from the estimated 100,000 Iraqi deaths, the estimated 15-20,000 US casualties (dead and injured), and the untold tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands (millions?) who will suffer from the effects of depleted uranium in the years to come, Rumsfeld remains convinced the "war on terror" is just. A long time political appointee, Rumsfeld is an Elder Statesman, walking around freely today.

10. Ruppert Murdoch. Token American. Media baron. Never met a war he didn't like. Responsible for tens of thousands of deaths and untold millions of refugees through media encouragement of harsh, US foreign policy. Owns a sizable chunk of the US news media. Murdoch is the most visible Godfather of the Mainstream News Mafia (MNM). Elder Statesman and multi-billionaire news baron, walking around freely today.

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And to stay consistent, any advisor who ever suggested that he should just keep printing more bills. If economic stupidity = a war crime now, we may as well clean house.

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Oh you are right. Spiro Agnew resigned, pleaded nolo contendere, was disbarred, and fined, but did not actually go to jail.

The two Attorneys-General who went to jail were Kleindienst and Mitchell.

The other two big players to go to jail were Haldeman and Erlichman, both of whom did not have Cabinet rank, but in reality exercised more power than anyone except Nixon himself.

And of course, a host of lesser players went to jail, too, including the legal counsel to the Preident, John Dean, Special Counsel Chuck Colson, and others.

Secretary of the Treasury Maurice Stans was criminally convicted and received a fine.

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I am not "right" in as much as I honestly didn't know the specifics of the whole affair; for all I knew the VP might have served time in prison (I just figured I'd have heard about that) so thanks for clearing that up for me.

Personally, and I already said I wasn't there, it appears that the people who were punished were mostly "fall guys" and the punishments were nothing to compare to those generally dished out by the ICC... I can't say I share your optimism if Watergate serves as an example of the closest any US President has come to accountability for crimes committed while in office; if thats all the Bush administration has coming they're getting off damn-lightly.

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But I thought the point of this thread was to avoid the Stalinist categories and deal with actual laws and actual potential prosecutions, but apparently not.

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How is it that I actually quoted the man himself (Stalin) upthread and it drew no comment then?

reglafella:

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Originally posted by Mercy:
I understand the outrage but I'm not sure what you'd be charging the Chicago Boys with.

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You go after Hitler, not his accountant. Go after Pinochet's corpse, not his advisors.

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Again I’ll quote you. Your concept that in the end only the single head of state is responsible for war crimes does in fact prove that you don’t know how power works. The people guilty of war crimes are those, whether they are civilians or not, who conspire to carry them out or after becoming aware of them, assist the government in power to continue. Unionist gives a good example.

Unionist -

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If they draw up a plan for using prisoners as slave labour, or for making death camps pay for themselves, or for handing out drilling licences after the invasion is over and the puppet regime is installed - what "serious sense" do you have in mind?

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Coup d’Etats cost money. Dictatorships not only need ‘seed’ money they need ongoing funding. In some cases certain corporations may not pay corporate taxes but they certainly pay a ‘death’ tax in the form of covert funding.

ExxonMobil-Sponsored Terrorism?
posted by David Corn on 06/14/2002
http://tinyurl.com/5bmbn2

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A year ago, the Washington-based International Labor Rights Fund filed a lawsuit against the energy behemoth, claiming the Mobil half of the conglomerate in the 1990s paid and supported Indonesian military troops that committed human rights abuses in the war-torn province.

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The West and Salvador Allende's Chile,
http://tinyurl.com/6dfzh5

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Ousted in 1973 in a military coup, President Allende's Chile, outside of Cuba, remains a case study of US manoeuvres for regime change. Going by the CIA's declassified documents on Chile under Allende, it is clear the tactics have hardly changed.
* In the words of Henry Kissinger, "Making Chile's economy scream." * Using the Director of the Office of Emergency Preparedness, offloading America's stockpile of copper to depress copper prices upon which Chile depended for foreign earnings
* Inflation/instability in the financial sector
* industrial action by US affiliated labour unions * US conglomerates led by Anaconda and AT&T which bankrolled the opposition to Allende and subsequently the coup.

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[ 23 July 2008: Message edited by: RosaL ]

I'm no lawyer, but I would suspect that any underlings whose actions themselves were specifically illegal, or violated one or another convention, would be on the hook, and all those whose actions were not, would not be.

And no matter how much you might get tingly at the thought that, as an example, advocating privatization of the oil rigs should be a crime, it simply isn't.

Now if you could make a sensible argument for how privatizing the oil rigs directly and unambiguously caused someone's death, perhaps you'd have a case, but it would be against the person with the authority to have made that happen, not the person who advised him.

[ 23 July 2008: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

[ 23 July 2008: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

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Couldn't it be argued that if we tried everyone who was guilty of crimes against humanity, the criminal courts would be severely backlogged? Wouldn't a situation like this lead to certain tyrants getting away with murder anyway?

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Canada as an example can become a haven for people coming to give evidence in as safe an environment as possible or to actually take legal action. NDP MP Peter Julian has or had a private members bill, (Bill C-492) which could prove to be a model of what we can do here.

http://tinyurl.com/6nx98s

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The Green Party also supports Peter Julian’s private member’s bill (Bill C-492) which allows the Federal Courts to hear and decide claims for violations of international law that takes place outside Canada. This legislation would allow non-citizens to sue anyone for gross violations of basic human, environmental or labour rights when they are committed outside the country.

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In other news, the killer of women, children, and elderly and the killer of Palestinian poet, Kamal Nasir, remains at large. And he (Ehud Barak), yesterday gave a tour of the occupied territories to Obama.

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Mitchell made liberal use of the "learned helplessness" paradigm in the harsh tactics he designed to interrogate prisoners held by the CIA. One prisoner was repeatedly locked in a fetal position; in a cage too tiny for him to do anything, other than to lie still in a fetal position. The cage was evidently designed not only to restrict movement, but also to make breathing difficult. In periods where the detainee was outside of the cage, the torture mechanism always remained in plain view so the detainee was constantly aware of his pending return to the device.

Another detainee was suspended on his toes with his wrists manacled above his head. This detainee, however, had a prosthesis that agents removed so that he either balanced on one foot for hours on end or hung suspended from his wrists.

Most detainees were subjected to long periods of isolation, often in total darkness, and often while naked. Human contact in these periods was minimized. In one case, the only human contact for a detainee occurred from a single daily visit when a masked man would show up to state, "You know what I want,” and then disappear.

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Juan Gelman (another old Jewish guy, a great poet, and Cervantes prize winner) had a lot to say about Kissinger.

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Originally posted by lagatta:
Mengele wasn't a war criminal because he had silly racist ideas.

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A Nobel-prize-winning rights group said U.S. officials committed war crimes by ordering what the group says was torture of detainees, and called for them to be probed and prosecuted.

"There must be a complete and independent investigation of what happened in Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib and other places where terrorist suspects were detained," Allen Keller of Physicians for Human Rights (PHR) told a briefing in the U.S. House of Representatives Thursday [July 24].

"We urge that a full investigation in the form of an independent non-partisan commission that has access to all documents and has subpoena power to obtain relevant documents as well as the testimony of officials," PHR president Leonard Rubenstein said.

"There must be accountability... accountability must include prosecuting individuals who have committed war crimes, whatever their place in the chain of command," he added.

The doctors described graphically how detainees held at the U.S. naval base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba and in Iraq and Afghanistan had been subjected to "torture and abuse while in U.S. custody that was sadly second to none."

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Originally posted by Ken Burch:

2)Reagan

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I had to do a double-take here when I read this (at first I thought this OP was a few years old).

You realize the Reagan is dead, right?

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General Hernandez Martinez's 1932 anti-communist purge (see card 2), was carried out on behalf of EI Salvador's rich coffee oligarchy, the so-called "Fourteen Families." New president Alfredo Cristiani is a member of those same "Fourteen Families" and his ARENA party is linked to brutalities surpassing Hernandez Martinez's. Cristiani, former leader of a motorcycle gang, the "Bad Boys," is a perfect figure-head: photogenic, moderate-sounding, schooled in Washington D.C., and indebted to the military for power. As puppet president, he yields to ARENA founder Roberto D'Aubuisson, whom former U.S. Ambassador Robert White calls a "pathological killer."
D'Aubuisson, a former cashiered Army Major with ties to Jesse Helms arid the U.S. right, studied unconventional warfare in the U.S. and Taiwan. He once told European joumalists, "You Germans were very intelligent. You realized that the Jews were responsible for the spread of communism, so you killed them." According to D'Aubuisson, "the Christian Democrats [Ex- President Jose Napoleon Duarte's party] are communists," but Jesuit priests are "the worst scum" of all. U.S. State Department cables indicate D'Aubuisson "planned and ordered the assassination of the late Archbishop Oscar Arnulfo Romero." It is believed he was behind the White Warriors Union (UGB), whose slogan was "Be patriotic - kill a priest." In 1989 six priests were slain and Cristiani soon admitted his U.S. trained soldiers had committed the murders. Yet, although assassinations of priests are notable, 70,000 other civilians have been killed by the Salvadoran military and the death squads since 1980.

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Originally posted by Sven:

I had to do a double-take here when I read this (at first I thought this OP was a few years old).

You realize the Reagan is dead, right?

Oh, and ditto with Nixon.

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Damn! I knew they'd beat the rap somehow.

I guess I included Nixon because it was so hard to separate Kissinger's deeds from him. Reagan? What the hell WAS I thinking? Sheesh.

By virtue of our paying taxes, we are supporting, or have supported, regimes that, directly or indirectly, depending on the accusing party's interpretation, have committed war crimes at some point in their history.

That's not to mention crimes against humanity, infractions of human rights, crimes of bad taste, and poor table etiquette. I'm sure there are a few more accusations that can be made with the right interpretive flair and zealotry.

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Originally posted by Sven:

I had to do a double-take here when I read this (at first I thought this OP was a few years old).

You realize the Reagan is dead, right?

Oh, and ditto with Nixon.

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Originally posted by oldgoat:
There is actually solid precedent for trying dead people.

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Originally posted by Harumph:
By virtue of our paying taxes, we are supporting, or have supported, regimes that, directly or indirectly, depending on the accusing party's interpretation, have committed war crimes at some point in their history.

That's not to mention crimes against humanity, infractions of human rights, crimes of bad taste, and poor table etiquette. I'm sure there are a few more accusations that can be made with the right interpretive flair and zealotry.

Once that's done, there are some windmills that need a good tilting-at.

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I was wondering when you were going to return to impress us with your expert inside information about the Canadian Forces and regale us with your wisdom about all things military.