babble home
rabble.ca - news for the rest of us
today's active topics


Post New Topic  Post A Reply
FAQ | Forum Home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» babble   » walking the talk   » feminism   » Witnessing domestic violence

Email this thread to someone!    
Author Topic: Witnessing domestic violence
Lima Bean
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3000

posted 15 October 2003 10:35 AM      Profile for Lima Bean   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Last night I walked past a young couple having an argument.

The guy was out on the sidewalk, leaning into his girlfriend's parked car on the passenger side. He was yelling at her, and she was doing the stony staring out the window thing. As I walked past I could hear only very little of what was going on, but it was definitely hostile. As I passed, I looked back, and he was leaning into the car more, with his hands on the passenger seat and his whole upper body inside the car, yelling right into her face, and then, still screaming at her, he headbutted her, and I saw her head jog, and then she put her hand up to her forehead and leaned over onto the steering wheel. It seemed pretty clear that he had hurt her and I think she was crying.

I stood there on the sidewalk stunned for at least a minute. I wondered what I should do--but I was afraid to go over to them and tell him to quit it, and leave her alone, or intervene at all, because I didn't want to get whalluped. I finally walked away, but I still don't feel good about it.

I wonder, what does one do in such a situation? How could I have been at all helpful to the woman? Why is there such a taboo on interfering in bullshit like that--or is it just fear?

[ 15 October 2003: Message edited by: Lima Bean ]


From: s | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Debra
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 117

posted 15 October 2003 12:12 PM      Profile for Debra   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I suppose the only safe thing to do is phone the police.
From: The only difference between graffiti & philosophy is the word fuck... | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lima Bean
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3000

posted 15 October 2003 12:23 PM      Profile for Lima Bean   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I suppose I should have called the police. I thought about it. I couldn't really see the licence plate on her car from where I was standing, and it did look like they wouldn't be there for long. I guess I sorta felt it would be futile. And I worried that it might just cause more distress to the young woman to be pulled over by the cops etc...

I dunno...I really did miss my opportunity to do anything about it at all, I guess.


From: s | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 826

posted 15 October 2003 12:24 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I would tend to agree with Debra. Take the license plate number and call the police with the location of the car.

If you personally intervened, you could get hurt. You are not trained to deal with aggressive people, the police are.

I would be stunned too, it's hard to see things like that and know how to respond.


From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 15 October 2003 12:50 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If you don't feel you're putting yourself in harm's way, you can always "witness" and make sure that the idiot know's he's beeing watched (obviously I'd suggest doing this from a ways away.. maybe the doorway of a store or bank if possible). Sometimes just knowing that an interested party is watching their actions is enough to make idiots like this reconsider whether they want to keep it up.

There've been a couple of occassions where Mrs. Magoo and myself have seen or heard altercations in the alley behind our apartment, and have gone, noisily, to the fire escape to witness and to ask the victim whether we should call the police or not. Typically this mean's "party's over" for the thug and they don't stick around.


From: `,_,`,_,,_,, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Lima Bean
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3000

posted 15 October 2003 02:31 PM      Profile for Lima Bean   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I did stand quite visibly in the middle of the sidewalk, basically just gawking at them from about 20 feet away. I really could't believe that I'd seen what I saw. I stood there for a while and just watched, kind of hoping that he would notice he wasn't going undetected.

From where I was standing it seemed that the guy kind of hung his head afterward, rather than just keep on yelling or hitting her. Maybe he was just as stunned by what he'd done as I was...I can only hope.

I hope that if I ever see such a thing again I'm in a better position to be of assistance to the woman being assaulted. It made me really angry to be so useless.


From: s | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Madame X
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4531

posted 15 October 2003 03:55 PM      Profile for Madame X     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Please don't be hard on yourself. You were probably stunned by what you saw. I know that's how I've felt when I've seen similar behavior. It just knocks the breath right out of you.

If he hit her in public or semi-public, it probably isn't new behavior on his part. After all, he's overcome his inhibition to act violently where he can potentially be seen by other people. Also, it's not uncommon for men who batter to be or appear sorry or ashamed afterwards. It's part of the cycle. Anger build up, trigger, violence, remorse, angerbuild up... He may hate himself for his actions but that alone probably won't stop him. Or he might look ashamed b/c his actions were witnessed by you.

You should always be careful when confroting batterers b/c they might turn on you. But calling the police if you can is a good idea, but not easy if they are not at home or in transit as you've said.

[ 15 October 2003: Message edited by: Madame X ]


From: here or there or eveeeery where | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Lima Bean
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3000

posted 15 October 2003 04:30 PM      Profile for Lima Bean   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It all made me think about the thread(s) on male victims of violence, and the stats that whoeverthatwas posted. I just don't buy that this sort of thing happens to men nearly as often or regularly as it happens to women. I have never ever ever seen a woman hit a man in public, but I have seen men hit women--in public, at home, and an awful lot of it on TV and in movies.

I generally go by what I like to call the phenomenon effect, whereby, if I've heard of something, or seen it, or know about it in some way, then it must be pretty big, and therefor have some grounding in reality, because I'm not so savvy a gal as to "be in the know"...Long story short, I feel that if this kind of violence has touched my life, it must be happening an awful lot. Compare that to female on male violence, which, aside from the aforementioned threads, has yet to enter my consciousness on any real level....

And then I just got really mad at the way all our threads have been hijacked by assholes who have no sense of what women actually face day-to-day and scoff at the solidarity and power we've struggled for so many years to achieve.


From: s | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Madame X
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4531

posted 15 October 2003 05:51 PM      Profile for Madame X     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I agree with your frustrations. It's interesting though how men complain that they are oppressed by women, when women including feminists are so hard-pressed to find space where they can discuss their issues on their terms w/o men especially those who are not feminist coming in and imposing their agenda on feminists, when most of their ills are caused by themselves. The behavior they are exercised can only be operated by those who have privilages due to their gender in society and KNOW it. Their actions put lie to their words, that's the irony of it to me.

They impose inequality in the guise of equality. That 'I'm feminism' and the FGM thread were proof of that. Women's body parts are less equal than mens, because the organs we lose to FGM are only worth as much as a male foreskin! That doesn't mean that male circumcision is viewed as being right or not a bad thing only if you view it to be equally abhorrant in practice as FGM. A clitoral hood is equivelent to a male forskin but NO FGM method only removes the hood. Why? Because removing a woman's ability to have pleasure including self-pleasure from sex and thus her sexual power is what's paramount in terms of the goals of FGM.

sometimes I think that any woman who doesn't put men's issues and men's needs first ahead of their own 24/7 is a huge threat to them, b/c we are disregarding that privilage and if we do that, they see it as disregarding and ignoring them.

There are things women do that hurt other women we can't face. There are things that men do to men(a lot of things and there are race, class and sexual orientation breakdowns here as well)They can't face their own behavior, plus they resent the gains that women have made which infringe on their own privilage so they lash out at us women in the guise of only hating feminists.

[ 15 October 2003: Message edited by: Madame X ]


From: here or there or eveeeery where | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Internet Devil
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4554

posted 15 October 2003 05:57 PM      Profile for Internet Devil        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Many VERY VERY bitter man-haters post on soc.men, so I can not post there. So it goes both ways. Such is internet!
From: USA | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 15 October 2003 06:00 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Women's body parts are less equal than mens, because the organs we lose to FGM are only worth as much as a male foreskin!

Nobody said any such thing. There's a new thread on the subject... why not click by and take a look. Nobody's being asked to consider FGM "equal to" circumcision - rather, it's being suggested that both are unacceptable forms of mutilation. Not "equally" unacceptable, just unacceptable.

quote:
sometimes I think that any woman who doesn't put men's issues and men's needs first ahead of their own...

Seriously. Drop by the thread and read. Nobody's being asked to put men at the head of the line either.


From: `,_,`,_,,_,, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Madame X
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4531

posted 15 October 2003 06:01 PM      Profile for Madame X     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

From: here or there or eveeeery where | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Lima Bean
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3000

posted 15 October 2003 06:05 PM      Profile for Lima Bean   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
off topic.
From: s | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Madame X
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4531

posted 15 October 2003 06:07 PM      Profile for Madame X     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Wrong. A poster said they were equally abhorrant and went on to explain well, at least FGM isn't being practiced in the Western World. Yes, they are both morally wrong IMO, but to say a man losing his foreskin is as abhorrant as a woman losing her clitoris or more is like saying a woman has to lose more of her body parts to equal the pain of a man losing less. That's not equality, sorry. If the fore glans of the penis were cut off, yes that would be a comparable standard.

Calling FGM or comparing it to female circumcision is downright offensive. Clitoral hood removal, yes. Clitoris and labia, NO!

I have a friend who works with Equality Now. She has to deal with this stuff ll the time.

It's not on the feminism site and that's just as well. It wouldn't be about FGM for very long anyway.


From: here or there or eveeeery where | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Madame X
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4531

posted 15 October 2003 06:13 PM      Profile for Madame X     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Not meant for you, Lima Bean. You're right on as usual.
From: here or there or eveeeery where | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
ronb
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2116

posted 15 October 2003 06:52 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Equally abhorrant? WTFare you on about? Who said that on babble? Ever?
From: gone | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Madame X
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4531

posted 15 October 2003 07:11 PM      Profile for Madame X     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Here's the reference, to as you put it, "WTFare on about:


quote:
Female genital mutilation? Yes it happens, and is culturally supported in some countries. How about male genital mutilation? Circumcision. Done for exactly the same reasons, and equally abhorant. But it is commonplace in the western world.

--Dogcrazyjen, "Yes I am a feminist thread"


From: here or there or eveeeery where | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Madame X
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4531

posted 15 October 2003 07:34 PM      Profile for Madame X     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The fact that anyone would say it was done for exactly the same reasons shows how little they know about either procedure. Circumcision is not done to control a man's ability to achieve sexual pleasure or control his pleasure. FGM's purpose is to do that with women.

[ 15 October 2003: Message edited by: Madame X ]


From: here or there or eveeeery where | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 826

posted 15 October 2003 08:20 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Back on topic,

I have seen a shove in public. In fact, it was in the grocery store at peak time. A couple in their thirties. A woman was pushing the cart, an infant was in the main part of the cart in a carrier. Her male compainion was stomping around her yelling about her list, her lack of organization, how much things cost, why do we need this, etc. Everyone could hear him. She didn't say anything, and, he then shoved her and told her to answer him. She told him to keep his voice down.

I was really shocked. I did the same thing you did, I stopped and stared at him. He saw me and stomped down the freezer aisle, she tried to smile at me.

I just couldn't believe that someone would behave like that in public, AND, if he shoves her in a fricking grocery store, what does he do when dozens of people aren't in the room?


From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lima Bean
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3000

posted 16 October 2003 12:58 PM      Profile for Lima Bean   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That's what I wondered as well. It's really very scary. I wanted to go and talk to her and invite her to my place so she wouldn't have to be near the guy anymore.

So, is that all a person can do? Just stand by as an obvious witness? Maybe call the police, if the situation seems somehow to warrant it, or if it seems like the police would be useful.

I do wonder about their response to such calls. Has anyone had experience with this sort of thing? I'm just not too confident that they'd jump up and run over, as I've heard so many stories of officers really being lackadaisical and uninterested in domestic assaults...

But maybe things have changed?


From: s | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Skye
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4225

posted 16 October 2003 02:04 PM      Profile for Skye     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I had a very, very, similar experience a few months ago. I was walking home from work when I looked across the street and saw a couple standing beside a parked car. The man was yelling at the woman at the top of his lungs, calling her a 'moron, an idiot, a dumb stupid broad', etc. I felt sick to my stomach, witnessing the utter humiliation and abuse of this woman and I sort of froze. After a couple minutes I walked over to the boulevard in the middle of the road, closer to their side of the street, so that he would see me, and stop. Either he wasnt intimidated by me, or he was blinded by his rage. He kept on screaming at the woman, and then hit her on the side of the head and pushed her roughly into the passenger side of the car. They then sped off up the road. It was a shocking thing to see. I tried to remember the license plate, but by the time I ran home, I had forgotten most of it. I felt so guilty for days after. I thought that maybe I should have shouted at the guy to stop, or phoned the police afterwards, but I didnt do either of those things.
From: where "labor omnia vincit" is the state motto | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
dee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 983

posted 16 October 2003 04:17 PM      Profile for dee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I do wonder about their response to such calls. Has anyone had experience with this sort of thing? I'm just not too confident that they'd jump up and run over, as I've heard so many stories of officers really being lackadaisical and uninterested in domestic assaults...

But maybe things have changed?


I called the police to report domestic violence at a neighbour's apartment early last spring. I didn't see anything but there was a great deal of shouting as well as alot of crashing sounds. I probably would not have called if it was just shouting. It took the police nearly half an hour to arrive. By that time things, luckily, had calmed down and all the police could do was ask what had happened.

The whole time we were waiting for the police to arrive we wondered what would have happened if things had escalated instead of calmed down. Twenty-five minutes is far to long of a response time.


From: pleasant, unemotional conversation aids digestion | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
paxamillion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2836

posted 16 October 2003 04:20 PM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I had a similar experience to dee's. However, in my case, the guy got mouthy with the police when they arrived and found himself being escorted and given free ride downtown. He never came back.
From: the process of recovery | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Meowful
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4177

posted 16 October 2003 04:55 PM      Profile for Meowful   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The problem pax, is that most of the time, the man DOES come back -- most pissed off than before... and like the Dixie Chicks say "Walked right through that restrainin' order"

From: British Columbia | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
paxamillion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2836

posted 16 October 2003 04:57 PM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Sadly, all too true.
From: the process of recovery | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Amateur At Large
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4564

posted 16 October 2003 11:42 PM      Profile for Amateur At Large   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Lima Bean:

I stood there on the sidewalk stunned for at least a minute. I wondered what I should do--but I was afraid to go over to them and tell him to quit it, and leave her alone, or intervene at all, because I didn't want to get whalluped. I finally walked away, but I still don't feel good about it.

I wonder, what does one do in such a situation? How could I have been at all helpful to the woman? Why is there such a taboo on interfering in bullshit like that--or is it just fear?

[ 15 October 2003: Message edited by: Lima Bean ]


quote:

Peace agreements -- but no peace
David Warren
Ottawa Citizen
Thursday, October 16, 2003

Let me start by mentioning something fairly obvious that was overlooked in all the numerous media accounts I saw of yesterday's Gaza bombing.

If the reader has ever tried to plant a bomb in the middle of a public roadway, he will have noticed the problem of witnesses. This is especially the case when your bomb is a remote-control device, that requires not only some excavation, but correct wiring to a switch at another location. In a normal society, people may ask what you are doing. Or, if they are too shy to ask, will call the police and then the police will come to ask.

There is nothing normal, however, about Palestinian society.



source

What you felt is called empathy, the knot in your stomach the lump in your throat, the ambiguity that tore you between attacking the agressor and rescuing the victim is referred to in clinical terms as "the cartman triangle".

It is the most dangerous relationship you can enter into.

What you do is this, identify the location, identify the car, call the police, identify yourself leave contact information then leave the scene.
Don't loiter around because there could be someone else approaching to join in a beating that could be domestic, drug related, psychotic, psychopathic or panicked.
For all you know she could have stabbed, shot, or poisoned him and he was getting in his last licks.

In the triangle there are three "roles", Victim, agressor, and rescuer. As soon as a third person interacts with the other two the roles switch.

The pressence of the third person creates a new victim a new rescuer and a new agressor. The next interactive event - speech action or inaction switches the roles again, and so on until somebody panics and there is violence.

It happens fast it is subtle and no one is in control.


From: Dundas(Hamilton), Ontario, Canada | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Amateur At Large
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4564

posted 17 October 2003 12:39 PM      Profile for Amateur At Large   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Meowful:
The problem pax, is that most of the time, the man DOES come back -- most pissed off than before... and like the Dixie Chicks say "Walked right through that restrainin' order"

I doubt that it is most of the time.

It probably feels that way, but it would be a mistake for the good and noble readers here to be lead to believe that most court orders are violated.


From: Dundas(Hamilton), Ontario, Canada | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Gayle
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 37

posted 17 October 2003 03:11 PM      Profile for Gayle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Along the same lines, what would you do if someone you knew told you their SO, whom you also you knew, beat on them?
From: Cape Breton, Nova Scotia | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lima Bean
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3000

posted 17 October 2003 03:16 PM      Profile for Lima Bean   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I would encourage the friend to get out of the situation and stay away from the abusive partner. I suppose it would be a matter to handle diplomatically and respectfully, because the last thing you'd want to do is come down as judgemental and cause the friend to clam up or start defending their partner...

But if it were a girlfriend of mine, I think I'd let her stay with me, and we'd work together on how to best extricate her from the relationship and any danger that her partner poses. Depending on the situation, maybe the police would have to get involved as well.

I'd probably also cry a lot. I hate that this shit is happening to women all over the place, all the time.


From: s | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Meowful
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4177

posted 17 October 2003 05:03 PM      Profile for Meowful   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Girlfriend of mine was in an abusive relationship. He beat her and her two kids (not his). As a result, she lost her kids (the father now has custody)
So, she chose to be beaten rather than have her children. I cannot for the life of me, understand this. "But, he loves me" she said. What the f****!!
Until women (and men) realize that punching someone, or otherwise abusing them is NOT a form of love this type of scenario will continue to happen.
I tried to intervene one time when my friend and her man were "going at it". She attacked me, literally.
Whatever honey, see yah freakin' later, have a nice life.
I've seen her around town a couple of times, she looks really rough. But she spit on me, so to speak, and I will not help her again. Nor will anyone else in this town, she's abused all the help that was once available to her. Women need to take responsibility for themselves too. It's not just the man's fault (although he is far from blameless)

From: British Columbia | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 17 October 2003 05:07 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The above has quite obviously been written by someone who is not aware of the many dynamics that can happen in abusive relationships.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Meowful
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4177

posted 17 October 2003 05:21 PM      Profile for Meowful   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This woman had EVERYTHING going for her. She lost her kids because of an abusive man and her "dependence" on him.

Here's what happened:
She was living with this guy who beat her. The kids' grandmother took the kids away from her. She tried to fight to get them back and it was going her way -- but with one condition that she stay away from the abuser. So she did, she became my roommate. She and her lawyer were working on getting the kids back and things were looking really good. She had a job and everything. Then she started saying she was spending the nights at her girlfriend's house. Turned out she was lying. She was actually staying with the abuser. Well, social services found out and she lost her kids for good.
I do not feel sorry for her. Every agency, every social worker, every friend tried to do everything they could for her and she spit in their faces. As my mother would say "You make your bed, you lie in it."


From: British Columbia | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 17 October 2003 05:35 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I won't pretend to understand these dynamics at all. The hardest part is understanding how someone could continue to love a person who physically abuses them and is obviously not intending to change. What's left to love? And why would being with someone be better than being alone, but safe? (Sometimes I think people fear being "alone" way too much).
From: `,_,`,_,,_,, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Lima Bean
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3000

posted 17 October 2003 05:35 PM      Profile for Lima Bean   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
While I understand the frustration that must accompany watching a friend make poor decisions, I'm really not comfortable with the use of that "you made your bed..." expression in the context of an abusive relationship or other such destructive scenario. I just feel like if her closest friends give up on her (whatever the circumstance), then who'll be left to help? Who'll be there when she really does want to get out, or get better, and just can't do it alone?

And yes, I know that this is complicated by the enabling conundrum, and becoming part of a co-dependent or otherwise destructive pattern, but I just don't know that I could wash my hands of someone who's so clearly in a lot of trouble, and not dealing with it very well on her own.

I don't really know where the line is, but I think I'd be fairly slow and careful in drawing it.


From: s | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Blue Eyed Soul
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4568

posted 17 October 2003 08:35 PM      Profile for Blue Eyed Soul   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
i'm kind of inclined to agree with meowful. there's only so much you can do for people, they have to want to help themselves.

i think that's gotta be one of the biggest factors in perpetuating the cycle of DV. if you let your SO get away with taking a shot at you even one time, you're planting the seeds for future attempts. I bet if alot of abusive indviduals had been show early in life that hitting their girl or boyfriend was a quick way to get kicked to the curb, they wouldn't be doing it today.


From: under the daytime sky | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Amateur At Large
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4564

posted 17 October 2003 09:03 PM      Profile for Amateur At Large   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gayle:
Along the same lines, what would you do if someone you knew told you their SO, whom you also you knew, beat on them?

Well if this question is directed at me, I have two answers.
One, when I was active in crisses intervention work (trained with 7 years experience) I was required by law to inform police.
Two, oooooo, that is a very good question.
Assuming this has been posted here as a true assertion with honourable intention then I have one other question.
Why did the medical personell at the hospital not report this themselves?

Proceed with extreme caution. You can die if you get involved - I have to, by law, inform you of this reality not that it reflects any statistical signifigance simply now that I have identified myself as a trained and experienced worker it would be negligent for me to exclude it.

Please feel free to email me for further discussion of this topic as generic advice on specific situations is ... a bad idea.
or you may call me at the number I will include in my return mail to you.

God bless, and stay safe.
Donald Cameron
Amateur At Large


From: Dundas(Hamilton), Ontario, Canada | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Amateur At Large
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4564

posted 17 October 2003 09:36 PM      Profile for Amateur At Large   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
The hardest part is understanding
...
(Sometimes I think people fear being "alone" way too much).

another good interogative assertion, I doubt that the fear you refer to is the reason.
To quote (or qoute out of context) Tina Turner "what's love got to do with it"?
Some people value their love more than they value their safety.
To quote the police dective who intervened on my behalf with my domestic violence experience, "there is your side of the story, there is her side of the story, and the truth lies somewhere in the middle".

Women don't actually tend to pound on their spouses, they tend to use surrogates.
They tend to use the children as hostages, betting that their spouse will not call their bluff.
They also tend to employ other men, or the threat of such employment, in the excersise of violence.

[ 17 October 2003: Message edited by: Amateur At Large ]


From: Dundas(Hamilton), Ontario, Canada | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
dianal who asked to be unregistered
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4192

posted 17 October 2003 09:43 PM      Profile for dianal who asked to be unregistered     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I feel for you Lima Bean - over the years I've seen many women being attacked by men, in public, and I remember the first time all too well.

I was 8 months pregnant and with my then husband, a police officer. We were getting into our car parked on the street and I noticed a pregnant woman walking on the sidewalk beside a man. I saw what I thought was him shoving her, so I kept watching. I then saw him knee her..in her stomach. I told my husband..he stood outside our car and yelled 'hey!'.

The guy came rushing over yelling at him to mind his own damn business, etc. and was right in his face. My husband said 'I'm a cop'. (He did this so that if the guy punched him, he was aware he could be charged with assaulting a police officer). The guy swore again and walked away.

In the meantime, the woman had fled..she was nowhere to be seen. My husband said 'well shit...she took off???'

I said at least she got away.

Women in abusive relationships on average need to leave 5 times before they can stay out. The times that I've seen women being attacked by men they obviously know, I've not seen a woman trying to get away or fighting back or defending herself. There really isn't much we can do but distract the guy, if that's safe for us to do, call the police if we think they'll get there in time - or we have identifying information like a plate # to give them, or help her if she's trying to get away. That can be done in some instances.

In wen do self defense training for women, we learned that if we were being followed, to turn and LOOK at the guy - then he knows we see him and can identify him. Pull out your cell phone and yell out 'I'm calling 911!' Yell out to someone else on the street 'you! in the purple coat! Call 911'.

But most importantly Lima Bean, I'm glad you've posted this because it's an important topic and I think it's important to YOU to debrief about it.


From: There is a deep lack of respect in the belief that we know what others need... | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 17 October 2003 10:06 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Not only that, but many women are AFRAID to leave because their spouses tell them they'll hunt them down and kill them if they ever leave, or if they ever tell anyone about the abuse. The fact that many women ARE injured or killed by ex-boyfriends and husbands after they leave certainly doesn't do anything to reassure abused women.

Also, abusers are very good at convincing their victim that it's the victim's fault. And it certainly doesn't help when friends and family reinforce that by blaming the victim for not having the courage or the strength to get away.

There are all sorts of psychological reasons as well as logistical reasons why women stay with or go back to abusers. I have to say that it shocks me to see that there are still women, especially on a progressive board like babble, who blame the victim.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Amateur At Large
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4564

posted 17 October 2003 10:17 PM      Profile for Amateur At Large   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Lima Bean:

I just feel like if her closest friends give up on her (whatever the circumstance), then who'll be left to help? Who'll be there when she really does want to get out, or get better, and just can't do it alone?

And yes, I know that this is complicated by the enabling conundrum, and becoming part of a co-dependent or otherwise destructive pattern, but I just don't know that I could wash my hands of someone who's so clearly in a lot of trouble, and not dealing with it very well on her own.


You have to be careful when presented with alleged scenarios. While I won't argue with the authenticity of that presented I will say there is much psychobabble offered in the media that has no basis in reliable stats.

Enabling originally described a situation of substance abuse. It, like intimacy, has been twisted to fit a variety of contexts that it may or may not justifiably fit.

There is an expression that encapsulates the idea we learned about in crises training called "crises precipitation". An example of this is when an employer tries to help an employee suffering from chronic alcohol abuse syndrome (there is actually no such thing as alcohol addiction) the employer makes continuous concessions to make it "easier" for the employee to deal with life and cope with fixing the problem. This is the classic example of enabling behavior. When the crises infrastructure was put in place, our supervisors were instructed to follow standard procedure when dealing with chronic lateness or absenteeism. Those suffering from CAAS would inevitably confront "the wall" - this is your last chance or we are now going to proceed with your dismissal. This throws the employee into crises and people trained to deal with such crises were brought in at that point.

Even more important than the above is the following two factors.

1)The employee must consent to willingly participate or we would not agree to intervene.
2)One person's crises is another person's minor inconvenience.

[edited to fix my deplorable spelling]

[ 17 October 2003: Message edited by: Amateur At Large ]

[ 17 October 2003: Message edited by: Amateur At Large ]


From: Dundas(Hamilton), Ontario, Canada | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
dianal who asked to be unregistered
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4192

posted 17 October 2003 10:46 PM      Profile for dianal who asked to be unregistered     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Would you define 'crisses' please?

and yes Michelle....Stockholm syndrome


From: There is a deep lack of respect in the belief that we know what others need... | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Amateur At Large
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4564

posted 17 October 2003 10:52 PM      Profile for Amateur At Large   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dianal:
Would you define 'crisses' please?

My pleasure (I thought no one would ever ask)

One is said to be in crises when : one feels compelled to make a decision but does not know what to do.

Beautiful is it not?

I like to add, from my experience, or lacks the skills to make a decision - but this is not part of the clinical definition.


From: Dundas(Hamilton), Ontario, Canada | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Amateur At Large
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4564

posted 17 October 2003 11:47 PM      Profile for Amateur At Large   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

The fact that many women ARE injured or killed by ex-boyfriends and husbands after they leave certainly doesn't do anything to reassure abused women.

Hi Michelle, the qualifier many hardly qualifies as a "fact". Although in substance threat of revenge is simply using fear to control someone. And in all fairness is quite effective as we know from long experience in politics and war.

quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

Also, abusers are very good at convincing their victim that it's the victim's fault.

I respectfully disagree, what you are refering to is called rationalising. I doubt that any victim needs to be coached or induced to rationalise their behavior. People are quite capable of rationalising all kinds of behavior quite completely on their own and in a wide variety of relatively benign situations. In fact the process of rationalising ones own behavior when one is the victim of distress of any kind, poverty, violence, loss of a loved one, natural disasters, can be an essential part of surviving the experience.

If you treat the rationalisation as agressor driven, then you invite the casual reader of these posts to make a potentially disasterous intervention or misadventure by challanging someone's rationalisation there by kicking out their supports (or the suport mechanism) possibly precipitating a crisses and involving all parties in a Cartman Triangle.

quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

There are all sorts of psychological reasons as well as logistical reasons why women stay with or go back to abusers. I have to say that it shocks me to see that there are still women, especially on a progressive board like babble, who blame the victim.

This is also misleading, as there are relatively few reasons that victims return to an evironment that is dangerous.
there are only three that I am aware of:
1) they want to go back. avengers, revengers, zelots, terroists, and on and on.
2) they feel compelled to go back. farmers, high steel workers, construction workers, gang members, platoon members, priests, missionaries etc. etc.
3) they have been ordered to go back a superior officer - vis
soldiers, firefighters, police, amublance workers, health care workers, disaster relief workers, rescures,
Respectfully,


[ 17 October 2003: Message edited by: Amateur At Large ]

[ 18 October 2003: Message edited by: Amateur At Large ]


From: Dundas(Hamilton), Ontario, Canada | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Amateur At Large
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4564

posted 18 October 2003 12:26 AM      Profile for Amateur At Large   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Amateur At Large:

oops
[ 17 October 2003: Message edited by: Amateur At Large ]

[ 18 October 2003: Message edited by: Amateur At Large ]


From: Dundas(Hamilton), Ontario, Canada | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Amateur At Large
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4564

posted 18 October 2003 12:45 AM      Profile for Amateur At Large   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dianal:
Would you define 'crisses' please?

and yes Michelle....Stockholm syndrome


I respectfully disagree. Stolkholm sundrome referres to a very specific condition whereby a hostage becomes complicit in criminal actions or behavior to survive the ordeal of being taken hostage.

To say that victims of spousal abuse who do not leave the dangerous situation are themselves complicit in criminal behavior or are themselves commiting criminal offences is in fact to blame the victim of a crime that has not even taken place.

Respectfully.

we have to be carefull here as adolescents and older children are free to come and read without supervision.


From: Dundas(Hamilton), Ontario, Canada | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 18 October 2003 10:51 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You know, Amateur at large, you can preface all your comments with "respectfully" first, but that doesn't change the fact that you're basically saying that victims of abuse rationalize staying with their abusers because they want to stay, and that it's their own fault. While it's true that what it generally takes to get out of an abusive situation is for the woman to finally make the decision that she cannot live with the abuse any longer, the fact is that many women who have been beaten up both physically and psychologically by their partners just do not have the confidence or the strength to leave.

I don't want to start a flame war with you, Amateur at Large, but frankly, I don't feel like having to explain this dynamic to someone who invests a lot of energy into anti-feminist, homophobic web sites like the one you have posted as your home page. It makes me think that probably you're not here to talk about women's issues from a feminist point of view. And while it's true that you're being "respectful", I'm not really interested in hearing your "masculinist" insights into the psychology of abused women.

So I respectfully decline debating with you any further on this issue. I'm not telling you not to post. I'm just telling you that I'm not going to engage you any further, and will instead focus on replying to posts by the feminists in this forum instead.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 214

posted 18 October 2003 12:15 PM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Calling the police, getting a licence number and description would have been the thing to do.

Hindsight is twenty-twenty though. I'm sure that's what I would have done-- in fact have done in one instance-- but I've also had that frozen feeling in other situations. It happens.

Like Mcgoo, I've sometime seen couples arguing while they walk down our street. Usually....hmmm...in every instance, young couples. I make my presence known, and in a couple of instances I followed for a bit.

I've never seen it escalate into violence. It may have been because I was there, or maybe not.

People like to help. But there are times when you have to realize that some
things are beyond your skill. Calling the police increases the possibility of the woman being pointed in the right direction for help.


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
April Follies
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4098

posted 18 October 2003 12:17 PM      Profile for April Follies   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I was in "danger, Will Robinson" territory once in my life, and never even knew it. Be aware that I grew up with parents who taught me that it was right that I should stand up for myself. I knew about abusive relationships and thought distantly: what a horrible thing.

So then in college, away from everyone I knew, feeling isolated and depressed... I met This Guy. Funy, handsome, charming, and near-terminally sarcastic. Without any malice in all the world, with what I still feel was a genuine attarction to me, he made me feel about an inch tall. Then half an inch. Then...

All the while, you know, I absolutely knew it was all my own fault. I was oversensitive, I was moody, that was clear. I couldn't make up my mind. I said the wrong things at the wrong times; I had only myself to blame for the resulting acid mockery.

Ironically, my way out of this trap came because I was showing my mother a written coversation between myself and This Guy, to share what I thought was a particularly amusing joke of his. She read through the whole conversation, slowly, then looked up at me. "April... this guy's an asshole."

I swear it was like a light breaking into darkness, the shift in perspective was that abrupt. Oh. So... if someone else saw it that way, there actually existed a possibility that it wasn't my unbalanced perceptions after all! And if that were so - if one could actually trust one's own judgement - "You're right!" I cried joyously. "He is an asshole!"

When I went back to college, I informed the fellow as gently as I could that I was an emotional mess right then and so, for my own emotional well-being, it was necessary that I stay far away from him until I could find my balance well enough to deal with things. He looked genuinely bewildered at the thought that he'd hurt me.

He had, in fact, hurt me so badly that I wouldn't even date for a year afterward, and it took another man six months of patience to even get me to a point where I felt comfortable with kissing. (Yes folks, I married that man, and ten years later testify to this as an official Happy Ending to the tale.)

So there you go. You can say it's all my fault, because I was all messed up in the head. Maybe there's even truth to that. But the fact is that there are people out there who, due to upbringing or societal messages or whatnot, simply do not trust their own judgement enough to look at a situation and say: this is wrong, this person should not be doing this to me. Fear, as Michelle says, may be part of it, but that comes later.

As to where I got that lapse of judgement, well, I have a sneaking suspicion. I remember at one time my father was raging over something political. I scampered away to a more distant room, because the presence of all that anger and roaring scared me witless. My grandmother found me cowering behind a book, and scowled at me.

"What did you do," she asked sternly, "to make your father so angry?"


From: Help, I'm stuck in the USA | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 214

posted 18 October 2003 12:54 PM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
So then in college, away from everyone I knew, feeling isolated and depressed... I met This Guy.

I have one daughter who is very much like that these days, and I'm concerned that she'll get hooked up with the first guy who pays her attention, and that this guy will turn out to be abusive. I think those types probably look for women in that may be feeling isolated, depressed, or in a low ebb concerning their self esteem.

I try hard to be atuned to not only these external possiblities, but also the kind of example I set myself, as a father.

It's not easy.

One of the counter-intuitive things is that my daughters will shield me from stuff that happens to them, for fear that I'll over react and get myself into trouble. This in spite of the fact that I never engaged in any bombastic f this ever happens to you, I'll..." kind of talk around them.

But obviously, they picked up on something, didn't they?


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
April Follies
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4098

posted 18 October 2003 01:06 PM      Profile for April Follies   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I know how that is- when you really love your parents, you know how much they feel your distress, so you try to make it easy on 'em by downplaying things.

When I was in college, though, I phoned home a lot, so maybe this'll reassure: when the going really gets tough, I'm betting your daughter still knows where the phone is, you know? See, the other side of knowing you're loved is knowing that you do have someplace to run. I survived later years of college by pasting up an email from my parents over my computer. It just said, "You can come home anytime you want."

Having formed a strong basis also makes it easier for a kid to break out of a destructive pattern, when she recognizes it for what it is. Meaning, just by being a concerned dad, you've given her some of the tools she'll need to escape such situations. Most women who find themselves in the really nasty traps lack such strong "support networks".

A certain amount of relationship-angst seems to be necessary for growing up. But for the actual vicious abuse-type situations, that seems to mostly happen when someone lacks alternatives - to provide a place to run to, to validate their own perspectives, to say, "You know, kiddo, this guy's an asshole..." That sort of thing. I'd say, from the sound of things, your daughter's got herself a nice strong network a-ready and waiting.


From: Help, I'm stuck in the USA | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 18 October 2003 01:12 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The other reason it's difficult to leave and difficult to talk to people about what is happening to you (particularly family) is that, as soon as you tell your family about something bad the person has done to you, that's it. You know that the person will be forever damaged in their eyes, and that they'll always remember that about your partner. So, at least for me, I had to have pretty much already made my decision to leave before I could tell my family or friends about the emotional abuse I was going through when I was married. I knew that if my family found out about any of the things he said to me, or the way he manipulated me, they'd hate him. So unless you're positive it's not going to work out and you are ready to call it a marriage, you really can't tell anyone what is happening.

And if you do tell people before you're ready to leave, then you'll get exactly the kind of treatment we've seen on this thread - contempt from people who aren't in the situation and don't understand why you might not be ready to leave the relationship yet.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Amateur At Large
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4564

posted 18 October 2003 03:25 PM      Profile for Amateur At Large   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

I don't want to start a flame war with you, Amateur at Large, but

lol not a flame war but ...

My logic professor had some lovely things to say about that grammatical construction. It is known as "bait and switch". Among the most banal of "baiting" (trolling) texts in the lexicon of logical fallacies.

I rarely use such deceptive constructions lol it is truly difficult to use such constructions and remain helpful and open which is of course the point. The free exchange of ideas, which is what "discussion" and being Canadian is all about.

It takes two to have a war and you threw down the gauntlet when you brought it up. I just don't feel the need to defend my opinions, as I believe what I have posted would withstand serious criticism.

I just got up, yawn, and provided a private message sender with my web site address which contains a lexicon which can be found at the phobia phobic page.

The administrator of this site was provided with my web site address when I applied for permission to post here. I will honor "her" authority and comply with the rules "she" has set forth.

There is a glaring error on that page and wonder that you didn't notice it and take the opportunity to discredit my input. I haven't had the motivation to fix it yet and will wait to give you the opportunity to spot the error.

I wondered why the hits on my little site were up today, lol, thanks for the free publicity.

Oh you will notice that my address and phone number have been publicly available for some time now, through my three published letters to the editor and also through the whois domain name search facility.

True I am a staunch opponent of same sex marriage, and very suspicious of the alliance of lesbians, radical feminism and Marxists, which I believe to be a grouping of pure self-interest. I am a strong supporter of the nuclear family and a staunch opponent of the attempts by the homosexual lobby to gain access to family benefits so necessary for the welfare of families with children.

We live in a free and democratic society, and I respect your right to express your opinion without regard for mine.

God bless you and keep you and your family well and prosperous.

RESPECTFULLY,
Donald Cameron
Amateur At Large
http://www.AmateurAtLarge.com
[email protected]


From: Dundas(Hamilton), Ontario, Canada | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
dianal who asked to be unregistered
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4192

posted 18 October 2003 03:47 PM      Profile for dianal who asked to be unregistered     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Amateur at Large: I would suggest that Michelle's posting was to say that even though this board is to

"Discuss feminist issues from a pro-feminist point of view. "


that she won't make an issue of you posting here. I don't read or post here to debate feminism - that isn't the purpose. I don't understand why you are posting here given the stated purpose and I'd offer up that if you wish to debate feminism, then perhaps the site owners/moderators would entertain a proposal from you for just such a message board.

[ 18 October 2003: Message edited by: dianal ]


From: There is a deep lack of respect in the belief that we know what others need... | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
oldgoat
Moderator
Babbler # 1130

posted 18 October 2003 04:08 PM      Profile for oldgoat     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
As (until now) a mere humble observer of this thread, I was interested in the above exchange involving the most erudite Amateur at Large. With respect to his estimable logic professor, sometimes the word "but", is just a subordinating conjunction. I fear he may have missed the crux of Michelles message.

quote:
So I respectfully decline debating with you any further on this issue. I'm not telling you not to post. I'm just telling you that I'm not going to engage you any further, and will instead focus on replying to posts by the feminists in this forum instead.


That message being, (and expressed in a very polite and restrained manner I might add) that further discourse with her appears unproductive, but go ahead and exchange your views with others.

That does not appear to me as flaming. For the sake of clarity, an example of flaming might be "Geeze Louise, what a pompous asshole", or "what an arrogant wanker". We don't encourage such ad hominem attacks here however, and Michelle would never say such a thing herself.

Hope that clears things up.

Respectfully,

Plantagenet P. Oldgoat


From: The 10th circle | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Amateur At Large
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4564

posted 18 October 2003 04:26 PM      Profile for Amateur At Large   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy_Paine:

Hindsight is twenty-twenty though. I'm sure that's what I would have done-- in fact have done in one instance-- but I've also had that frozen feeling in other situations. It happens.
...
I've never seen it escalate into violence. It may have been because I was there, or maybe not.
...
People like to help. But there are times when you have to realize that some
things are beyond your skill. Calling the police increases the possibility of the woman being pointed in the right direction for help.


Wise words. I have intervened on occasion but never with domestics - I always refer the matter to the police when I feel concerned. Once I was sitting on the stoop outside of my apartment building and I saw this man stagger (clearly smashed on booze) to his car and climb into the driver seat. I got up and prevented him from driving away and summoned a standing cab to come and get him. He was a little embarrased, but I used a little humor to get him to comply, and he went willingly on his way home in the cab.


From: Dundas(Hamilton), Ontario, Canada | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 826

posted 18 October 2003 04:28 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I was just going to point out what Michelle had, about telling family about "problems" you may be having with your spouse. Once it's out, it's out. He's evil, and, even IF you were able to work it out so that it's no longer an abusive situation, he'd be tarred for life in the eyes of your family. It would be extremely hard.
From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Amateur At Large
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4564

posted 18 October 2003 05:10 PM      Profile for Amateur At Large   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by oldgoat:
As (until now) a mere humble observer of this thread, I was interested in the above exchange involving the most erudite Amateur at Large. With respect to his estimable logic professor, sometimes the word "but", is just a subordinating conjunction.
...
That message being, (and expressed in a very polite and restrained manner I might add) that further discourse with her appears unproductive, but go ahead and exchange your views with others.

That does not appear to me as flaming.

For the sake of clarity, an example of flaming might be "Geeze Louise, what a pompous asshole", or "what an arrogant wanker". We don't encourage such ad hominem attacks here however, and Michelle would never say such a thing herself.

Hope that clears things up.

Respectfully,

Plantagenet P. Oldgoat



Ah yes the non-flame flame hidden in the dubious innocence of an example. Clearly, we concur that appearances can be deceiving. May I repay the compliment to my good and noble friend as regards such an erudite example of the bait and switch technique. Complimenting the target and then slapping the target down.

It must be clearly an error of inference that it sounds so like I am being instructed with some authority by the author to watch my P and Q's.

As I have already stated clearly that I have no intention of flaming in a "discussion" forum, I must publicly wonder that the author felt compelled to re-state my own argument in the author's own words as if it were a revelation of the author's divine origin.

In fact I have made it clear that I will comply with the owner's rules and the owner's wishes as regards conduct on these boards. Inasmuch as I never alleged that I had been flamed and merely pointed out that my good and noble friend had broached the subject without warrant, and that such action could be inferred as an invitation to engage in the alleged activity, I have to wonder out loud again at the redundant claims made by the above.

I confirm with the author that there is a great deal more clarity now than there was before and when one has list of characters and their roles the process of interchange becomes substantially enlightened, and the effective responses much easier to smith.

As for my responses to enlighten our readers when I feel an error of fact has been carelessly entered into the public record. I reserve the right, as determined by the owner of this site to post in response to whom ever and about what ever I so choose, as we all agree that freedom of speech is of the utmost importance.

I am confident that the truth will triumph over confusion as time passes.


But I leave that up to our good and noble readers to determine for themselves.

Your humble servant,
Donald Cameron
"Amateur" At Large


From: Dundas(Hamilton), Ontario, Canada | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Amateur At Large
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4564

posted 18 October 2003 07:01 PM      Profile for Amateur At Large   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dianal:
Amateur at Large: I would suggest that Michelle's posting was to say that even though this board is to

"Discuss feminist issues from a pro-feminist point of view. "


that she won't make an issue of you posting here. I don't read or post here to debate feminism - that isn't the purpose. I don't understand why you are posting here given the stated purpose and I'd offer up that if you wish to debate feminism, then perhaps the site owners/moderators would entertain a proposal from you for just such a message board.

[ 18 October 2003: Message edited by: dianal ]


Oh my lord, I do appologise. I didn't realize that I had undertaken my posts on the board that was confined to feminism.
Good greif what a gaff.

I'm so very sorry that I have done this, when I came to this thread from the men's activism news web site I truly didn't realize that this was a pro-feminist thread or board. How unintentionally rude I have been.

so I appologise to everyone and invite the moderator to move or remove my threads in their entirety.

Thank you very much for alerting me to the error.

I feel quite foolish.

again I most humbly appologise and will refrain from posting further here as I am definitly not pro-feminist.

please forgive me I thought this was the off-topic area.

such an error

I'm sorry.


From: Dundas(Hamilton), Ontario, Canada | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
dianal who asked to be unregistered
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4192

posted 18 October 2003 07:45 PM      Profile for dianal who asked to be unregistered     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
"Discuss feminist issues from a pro-feminist point of view. "

..is from the description of this particular board within the entire rabble site.


From: There is a deep lack of respect in the belief that we know what others need... | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Amateur At Large
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4564

posted 18 October 2003 07:48 PM      Profile for Amateur At Large   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dianal:
"Discuss feminist issues from a pro-feminist point of view. "

..is from the description of this particular board within the entire rabble site.


Well assuming that there is a place for my contributions where should they be posted?

thanks
Yes I saw that description from the main menu yesterday but came here directly from an outside link and just jumped in without really putting two and two together


From: Dundas(Hamilton), Ontario, Canada | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Karyn
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4446

posted 18 October 2003 07:51 PM      Profile for Karyn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I have had the sad experience of having to help my sister through an abusive relationship. It was one of the most difficult times of my life and no doubt hers.

Be patient and be there. Do not be judgemental. Be lovingly persistant but do not push. Be assertive in what you see but not aggressive.

Remember, you are there to help. Oh and if you witness abuse ...take charge; call the police and please please do not hesitate.


From: Thornhill | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
googlymoogly
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3819

posted 18 October 2003 07:51 PM      Profile for googlymoogly     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
How about going to the "body and soul" forum? There's a gender thread there...
From: the fiery bowels of hell | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Amateur At Large
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4564

posted 18 October 2003 08:20 PM      Profile for Amateur At Large   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by googlymoogly:
How about going to the "body and soul" forum? There's a gender thread there...

Yup that is the place. thanks I will get my butt kicked there for sure, looks like a great area with many bright and well spoken (written?) contributers.

Michelle?
I'm sorry, I was wrong to come on so stronly with you.
Maybe we can cross swords over there?
It could be fun.
lol
anyway I hope you will forgive me.

You can c'mon over there and give me what for anytime.

take care everyone

What a great web site.


From: Dundas(Hamilton), Ontario, Canada | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Internet Devil
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4554

posted 20 October 2003 09:54 PM      Profile for Internet Devil        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Amateur At Large:
As for my responses to enlighten our readers when I feel an error of fact has been carelessly entered into the public record. I reserve the right, as determined by the owner of this site to post in response to whom ever and about what ever I so choose, as we all agree that freedom of speech is of the utmost importance.

Do hate speach laws in Canada not prescribe 25 year sentences for political incorrectness? You can argue that these laws are rarely used. But if dissent threatens national social policy, these laws CAN be implemented!


From: USA | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged

All times are Pacific Time  

Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | rabble.ca | Policy Statement

Copyright 2001-2008 rabble.ca