Full story.

[ 08 November 2004: Message edited by: audra trower williams ]

Hi there!

I just wanted to let you know that your Ale House ad is utterly vile, and I feel that if sexual harassment had ever affected any woman close to you, you'd know that.

Not that I imagine women are clamouring to get close to someone who finds their oppression funny, so I suppose that's a moot point.

Yours in scorn,

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Shiner says it's also interesting that because of the reaction, the Alehouse will probably receive more publicity than it would have if the billboard had been less controversial.

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It wouldn't be that hard to argue that it is advocating sexual harassment -- ie, advocating breaking the law.

[ 08 November 2004: Message edited by: skdadl ]

I remember a famous blooper (a station used to play them late at night when I was younger), about a race horse named Harass who was pulled from a race.

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Originally posted by RealityBites:
I'm pretty sure Michelle's got it.

I remember a famous blooper (a station used to play them late at night when I was younger), about a race horse named Harass who was pulled from a race.

"Remember, be sure to scratch Harass."

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I think there is a Spike Jones routine that uses that joke too.

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Well, when you say the word out loud, it does come out as "her ass", at least the way I said it.

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There is a very offensive billboard in Halifax:

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1099684516932_95093716/?hub=TopStories

I was wondering if you had any ideas on how to edit it. Thanks!

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Well what are you waiting for? Go get it tiger. Excellent potential.

December 6th is a day of remembrance and action around issues of violence again women. As part of the Action component, a number of community groups are organizing a march and picket starting at 4 pm at the Spring Garden Library on December 6th and marching to the Ale House where we will picket to make a statement against sexist advertising.

A number of you have already expressed concern about this - and now we're hoping for your help in this action.

But protesting it will just give this owner more business.And let's make sure a woman didn't design it,so it doesn't get thrown back in face.

We should be spending more energy and resources closing down strip joints and getting rid of Citizenship and Immigration Minister Judy Sgro.

Not sure if she's guilty or not,but this really is disgusting if she is.Pure sleaze and an insult to all woman.

The controversy has done more to make this pub a recognized name across the country, than the billboard alone ever could. I am sure the owner appreciates the publicity.

I am repulsed by the personal attacks on Mr. Keevill. I would hope more people would not jump to snap judgements on folks based on a silly billboard advertisement. I really don't see the need to make those types of comments, particularly when you have not met the individual of whom you speak.

I find it interesting that someone suggested that we should first make sure a woman didn't design the campaign: do I understand correctly that from that perspective, it is acceptable for a woman to produce such material, but not for a man? Talk about a double standard! To me, feminism and equality is about eliminating double standards period, not just the ones that don't suit your own agenda.

Peace out.

[ 15 December 2004: Message edited by: NautiGirl ]

[ 15 December 2004: Message edited by: NautiGirl ]

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Originally posted by bittersweet:
Whoosh...

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That implies "her ass." harass. her ass. harass. her ass.

How the hell does that not encourage, or at the least, condone, sexual assault?!

BTW- their new billboard reads "We also have fruity drinks in case of scurvy" or some such garbage. Whoah! Management's on a role! Let's see who's the next target of this misogynist, patriarchal establishment!

[ 15 December 2004: Message edited by: meades ]

At what percent really give to shits about this ad.
In there daily lives it's nothing more than driving past the hundreds of ads that say come here instead of there!!!!!!!!!!!

What this prick has done has created a conflict,which creates contreversy,which creates attention,which creates dollars!!!.

I know its hard to understand but the average Joe or Jane just wanting to eat in the most boring place in suburbia will eat at the most entertaining site,and food or health is secondary.l

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In there daily lives it's nothing more than driving past the hundreds of ads that say come here instead of there!!!!!!!!!!!

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That's the nature of human being.

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Audra did you get a reply?

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That response says a lot about Canada's legal system, no?

[ 16 December 2004: Message edited by: meades ]

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Originally posted by NautiGirl:
I am repulsed by the personal attacks on Mr. Keevill. I would hope more people would not jump to snap judgements on folks based on a silly billboard advertisement. I really don't see the need to make those types of comments, particularly when you have not met the individual of whom you speak.

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The above, of course, are business considerations. There is certainly a social context about advertising, and that's where regulatory considerations come in. Were there formal complaints made? What was the decision? Are there laws against this sort of advertising? Should there be? The difficulty here is that there is a strong element of artistic creativity in advertising, and it’s tough to judge that sort of thing by panel.

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they can ban or turf anyone they like, its a business and doesnt have restrictions like that (ever try to get in a kewl nightclub without having the right 'look'?

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Nah. I am too old to do the bar scene anymore ('cuz I am in my mid-thirties and I got tired of it a decade ago). I did not even know that this happens (wow, guess...I'm outta the loop).

In Calgary, the bar owners claim they cannot ban people from bars despite frequent violence. I just assumed that people cannot be unjustly banned. Is this not blatant discrimination? I can see if a person is hammed, but just because of their look? Maybe different provincial laws?

Bar owners can use either excuse (we cant or we can) whichever works best for them.

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In Calgary, the bar owners claim they cannot ban people from bars despite frequent violence.

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You do need to get out more.

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And, given that you have signed up for babble exclusively to respond to this thread (as well as what you wrote), I guess it's safe to assume that you have met the individual of whom we speak

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I found this forum on Google. This thread in particular caught my attention, and felt, given how silly I think the whole hoopla is, that I couldn't help but respond. Unfortunately I have been too busy to spend much time here, hence why my posting has been limited to this particular thread.

Whether or not I have met the individual of whom you speak is irrelevant. I took issue with the fact that it was taken to the school-yard level of launching personal attacks. It strikes me as nothing short of juvenile, TBH.

My opinion is that this has been blown way out of porportion, and there are bigger fish to fry if you feel like tackling equality. This was a silly billboard that no one would have noticed period if y'all hadn't got your panties/thongs/boxers/boy shorts/briefs all in a twist. Now, everyone has their eyes on this billboard to see what is next. Can you not see how counter-productive this has been?

Lighten up folks. It was a pun, and there is absolutely nothing in that billboard that could be read by your average Joe to say "come into our bar and harass our waitresses". Funny how people will read what they want into anything.

My thoughts are these: if you think Mr. Keevill is insensitive to the plight of women in regards to sexual harassment, then write a thoughtful letter explaining yourself and the issue. As soon as you sink to the level of silly insults and hate mail, you eliminate credibility and the message is lost. And when we make a big deal over every little thing that someone somewhere might possibly find offensive, eventually we lose credility with everyone, and they tune you out altogether. But you are all free to choose your own battles. Just don't be surprised when people stop listening. For me, I'll be the first to protest lenient sentences for spousal abusers, wage inequality, deadbeat dads (the list goes on and on). I will not waste my time to protest a pun on a billboard that 90% of the population will not even see, let alone find offensive.

And for the record, I have had the pleasure of meeting Chris Keevill. That however, does not disqualify anything I have said here. It just makes me probably the only person here who is in a position to comment on him personally, and I decline to comment here, as it is completely irrelevant to the issue at hand.

[ 17 December 2004: Message edited by: NautiGirl ]

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This was a silly billboard that no one would have noticed period if y'all...

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It's not obvious to you, but the ad was designed to be noticed, based on its content. What's really silly is your complaint that we shouldn't notice what Mr. Keevill paid to be noticed.

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...it just makes me probably the only person here who is in a position to comment on him personally, and I decline to comment on him here, as it is completely irrelevant to the issue at hand.

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Consider: a billboard expressing nostalgia for the days when anti-Semitism was more acceptable. What about one that expressed nostalgia for the days when homosexuality was against the law? But that's not what this billboard is doing, is it? It's way different. It isn't at the expense of a race. Or homosexuals. No, it's at the expense of women. So, it's okay. And look: it's about work-place harassment, not spousal abuse or wage equality. So it's even more okay. Why? Because NautiGirl declares that those latter two issues are the important ones. And more: this conveniently skewed logic has nothing to do with her having had the "pleasure" of meeting Mr. Keevill. That is, of course, "irrelevant."

Whoosh...

[ 17 December 2004: Message edited by: bittersweet ]

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It's not obvious to you, but the ad was designed to be noticed, based on its content. What's really silly is your complaint that we shouldn't notice what Mr. Keevill paid to be noticed.

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And though I won't profess to speak for CCL, I am sure in their wildest dreams, they would have never anticpated this billboard, in it's rotten location, would ever be noticed to this degree. Now, courtesy of all this controversy, it is probably the most watched billboard in the city. Congratualtions: you did more to create interest then a mediocre pun ever could. They should send you a thank you note.

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Actually, it is relevant. Actions speak. He put up a billboard expressing nostalgia for the days when sexual harassment in the work-place was acceptable, and he stands to be judged by that action. He publicized a personal value, one he believes in strongly enough to put on a billboard. He'd be judged too, would he not, NautiGirl, if he'd put up a billboard expressing nostalgia for the days when spousal abuse or wage inequality were acceptable.

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Can you please provide me with some concrete evidence that these are values that Mr. Keevill holds? First, the intention was never, and the majority of people who will read that billboard do not take it as condoning sexual harrassment. And if that was not the intention, it hardly seems reasonble to make the grand leap that he personally must therefore hold those values. Give me strength!

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No, it's at the expense of women. So, it's okay. And look: it's about work-place harassment, not spousal abuse or wage equality. So it's even more okay. Why? Because NautiGirl declares that those latter two issues are the important ones. And more: this conveniently skewed logic has nothing to do with her having had the "pleasure" of meeting Mr. Keevill. That is, of course, "irrelevant."

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I see your point about picking battles and possibly giving the ad company the attention it wants, but there is also the possibility that as more attention is drawn to this ad, more people will realize that women still face measures of discrimination in the workplace. I doubt that this ad will lead to a windfall in revenues for the establishment in question or the ad company.

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I took issue with the fact that it was taken to the school-yard level of launching personal attacks.

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It strikes me as nothing short of juvenile, TBH.

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It was a pun, and there is absolutely nothing in that billboard that could be read by your average Joe to say "come into our bar and harass our waitresses".

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if you think Mr. Keevill is insensitive to the plight of women in regards to sexual harassment, then write a thoughtful letter explaining yourself and the issue.

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And though I won't profess to speak for CCL, I am sure in their wildest dreams, they would have never anticpated this billboard, in it's rotten location, would ever be noticed to this degree.

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Can you please provide me with some concrete evidence that these are values that Mr. Keevill holds?

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Out Waitress Uniforms Were Designed Back When Harass Was Two Words.

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It's simple, to the point and clear in it's message.

I don't consider the idea that women are defined by some billboard. But those who rent them and design what is on them to represent their company do.

So in this short text, it tells me that, the company, Alehouse, is run by short sighted people who objectify women. They wish to appeal to a clientel that is male, none to smart and accepting of some level of violence towards women.

These are things that are helpful to people like me to identify where I want to avoid being so that I can limit my exposure to neanderthals like these and when needed, have them available so I can demonstrate to my kids what not to become and let them see why.

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I took issue with the fact that it was taken to the school-yard level of launching personal attacks.

Is calling a misogynist a misogynist a school yard level attack?

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First, I highly doubt that you are in any position to be determining if this individual is a misogynist. Second, I was referring to calling him a "moron" and the childish comment that:"Not that I imagine women are clamouring to get close to someone who finds their oppression funny, so I suppose that's a moot point.". That's a pretty foolish comment to make, don't you think? Clearly formed on perceptions of an individual based on very limited knowledge. I would be equally po'd if someone were to come on here and post something like "I'm sure you don't have to worry about being sexually harrassed anyhow since you all are a bunch of razor shunning, man hating, oversensitive, PMS crazed lesbians". Maybe it's true, maybe it's not. But unless you have some first hand knowledge of a person, it is hardly reasonable to jump to such a conclusion.

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Oh, but you're fine with a billboard that makes light of sexual harassment?

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I don't interpret that billboard to be making light of sexual harassment, so yes, I am fine with it, or at least not offended by it. To be honest, I've seen better puns.

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A couple dozen were delivered on December 6th. He has yet to issue an apology.

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No. A bunch of you went to the Alehouse demanding that a billboard be removed that had infact been removed 3 weeks prior. Keevill doesn't work at the Alehouse, so unless you sent them to the CCL group, you can hardly say that they were delivered to him.

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Yeah, I mean, who the fuck drives down Barrington? Pfft- why do they even have billboard space there? Talk about ghost town! Oh, except for the tens of thousands of communters.

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That location on Barrington St has very little exposure compared to hundreds of other billboards in the city. Who the hell drives down downtown Barrington looking up????? Actually, I will correct myself. Since this non-event, it is no doubt one of the most watched billboards in Halifax. Good work guys!

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Can you please provide me with some concrete evidence that these are values that Mr. Keevill holds?

Oh! Oh! I can!
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Out Waitress Uniforms Were Designed Back When Harass Was Two Words.

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They wish to appeal to a clientel that is male, none to smart and accepting of some level of violence towards women.

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Well, you got the first part right. Have you ever even been to the Alehouse? Guess who their clientel is? Beer drinking males. You are maybe finally starting to grasp some marketing concepts. How dramatic: "accepting some level of violence towards women". Having been sexually harassed, I would refer to it as a lot of things, but "violent" was not one of them.

I thought that by posting here I might be able to engage in some reasonable debate. Nope--you only see what you want to see and are closed to any other perspective. It's like trying to reason with a 3 year old. The only point of view you are interested is in is one which agrees with yours. What's the point of a forum where everyone just sits around agreeing with each other? And if you don't then "Whoosh..."

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I would be equally po'd if someone were to come on here and post something like "I'm sure you don't have to worry about being sexually harrassed anyhow since you all are a bunch of razor shunning, man hating, oversensitive, PMS crazed lesbians". Maybe it's true, maybe it's not.

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But no one would do that.

Who would do that?

It would be patently obviously stupid to do that.

To wit:

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…But I don't think that they were the result of my jack ass boss reading billboards like this. No, it goes waaaaaaay deeper than that.

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The complaint, of course, isn’t that the billboard caused sexual harassment. The complaint is that the billboard, by virtue of both its flippant text and public display, advertised sexual harassment toward women as something amusing, normal, acceptable. NautiGirl thinks it was benign; however, after she invoked spousal abuse and pay equity as serious issues, when confronted with a comparative example of a billboard mocking them—just as this one mocks the issue of workplace sexual harassment—she didn’t respond. Same thing, when she was confronted with an example of a billboard mocking the rights of minorities. Instead of responding, she simply repeated herself, and accumulated more straw men along the way. How could anyone diminish her credibility more effectively than her own empty replies?

Another example:

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…you need to pick your battles and if you are going to go ape-shit over every percieved offensive comment…

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The criticism on this thread is of course focused on a single issue, so her comment is either a really weak straw man, or it’s simply more extraordinary whoosh. In any case, criticizing a billboard endorsing workplace sexual harassment obviously doesn’t mean people are criticizing “every perceived offensive comment.” This is an especially disingenuous comment considering it was NautiGirl who introduced a variety of other issues, such as spousal abuse and pay equity. Again, when confronted with an example of a billboard mocking either of those issues, she chose not to comment. Could she sabotage her credibility any further?

Why, yes:

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Real actions by real people that create a hostile working environment for women. Not simply a mis-interpretation of the values expressed by a pun on a billboard.

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Well, you got the first part right. Have you ever even been to the Alehouse? Guess who their clientel is? Beer drinking males. You are maybe finally starting to grasp some marketing concepts. How dramatic: "accepting some level of violence towards women". Having been sexually harassed, I would refer to it as a lot of things, but "violent" was not one of them.

I thought that by posting here I might be able to engage in some reasonable debate. Nope--you only see what you want to see and are closed to any other perspective. It's like trying to reason with a 3 year old. The only point of view you are interested is in is one which agrees with yours. What's the point of a forum where everyone just sits around agreeing with each other? And if you don't then "Whoosh..."

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All this from my one little post in this forum?
What are you getting upset about? Making light of sexual harassment isn't witty or clever. Plus it bothers people, so what's the value in getting people angry with you or you business?

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The complaint, of course, isn’t that the billboard caused sexual harassment. The complaint is that the billboard, by virtue of both its flippant text and public display, advertised sexual harassment toward women as something amusing, normal, acceptable.

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That is YOUR interpretation of the billboard. It may even be shared by everyone reading this forum. But it is not neccessarily the interpretation held by everyone, or even the majority of the population. I posted a link to the billboard on another forum I post on, and not one person found it offensive. Some didn't get it. Some didn't find it funny. But not one person view it in the twisted light you do, so please don't assume the world sees things as you do. (Thank God).

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NautiGirl thinks it was benign; however, after she invoked spousal abuse and pay equity as serious issues, when confronted with a comparative example of a billboard mocking them—just as this one mocks the issue of workplace sexual harassment—she didn’t respond. Same thing, when she was confronted with an example of a billboard mocking the rights of minorities. Instead of responding, she simply repeated herself, and accumulated more straw men along the way. How could anyone diminish her credibility more effectively than her own empty replies?

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Forgive me for assuming those were rhetorical questions.{gag} Of course I would be outraged to see a billboard that advocated oppression of gays or on a racial basis. However, since I do not see anything in the said billboard that I see as advocating the harassment of women, I am therefore not offended. And FTR, I am forced to keep repeating myself because your reading comprehension seems to be lacking. You are reading what you want to read into my posts, not what I actually write.

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We assume Mr. Keevill is real, because NautiGirl has apparently met him. His actions are real, unless NautiGirl thinks the billboard and its contents are imaginary. And there’s been no “mis-interpretation” of the value Mr. Keevill advertises. All NautiGirl has done is deny the interpretation that Mr. Keevill thinks sexual harassment in the workplace is amusing, and is nostalgic for the days when it was acceptable--but hasn't offered a reasonable substitute for that interpretation. How weak is that?
So many more examples, so little time. As you were, NautiGirl. That is, whoosh...

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How weak is it for someone to assume what someone else thinks? If anything, after this exchange, I respect him more for not caving in when confronted by a hyper-sensitive minority of women who see the world through a narrow view which paints everything as having the intent of oppressing them.

Now, since I have obliged you by responding to all of those comments you thought I was avoiding, perhaps you might read through my posts and respond to the many, many points I raised that you have yet to respond to. (BTW, it would have been quite easy to deny that I had ever met Keevill so as not to diminish my "credibility" in the eyes of this forum. So before you go attacking my credibility, keep in mind that I have responded to every question regarding my opinion or motivation posed to me. You, Bittersweet, have not)

[ 18 December 2004: Message edited by: NautiGirl ]

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What's the point of a forum where everyone just sits around agreeing with each other?

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NautiGirl, I fear you've sunk your own credibility.

Whoosh...!

[ 19 December 2004: Message edited by: bittersweet ]

[ 18 December 2004: Message edited by: NautiGirl ]

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Originally posted by audra trower williams:
Ha! Um, if bittersweet found something on the internet without, like, hacking into your email or something, that's hardly an invasion of privacy. You POSTED IT ON THE INTERNET. It's not private! Quit making out like he rifled through your garbage or put a spycam in your purse, when all he probably did was use google.com.

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I do not disagree with what you say. My point is only that what I post in that forum should not be used against me or posted in this one. Again, I am here to discuss this issue, and many of the other issues which are posted here. If you care to discuss the issues which are posted on MH, feel free to join us there.

And actually, you posted a link to *this thread* on that board so you could give your forum-mates a chance to check us out and discuss us over there.

[ 19 December 2004: Message edited by: Anchoress ]

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My point is only that what I post in that forum should not be used against me or posted in this one.

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I posted a link to the billboard on another forum I post on, and not one person found it offensive.

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Originally posted by WingNut:

Cake, have? Eat?

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Yeah, or 'Pot: Kettle.'

[ 19 December 2004: Message edited by: Anchoress ]

Google, google…

When it comes to humour, I wouldn't call myself the most sensitive guy on the planet. Let's just say that I've made jokes in private that would probably get me banned-for-life if I ever posted them on babble. So I'm not criticizng your points from the persepctive of someone who is really offended by the joke per se. So, with that out of the way:

You honestly expect people to think that an ad which a) makes reference to waiteresses' uniforms, b) contains the word harass, and c) suggests "her ass" as an alternative pronunciation for that word ISN'T clearly making a joke about sexually harassing waiteresses? Consider the following old groaner:

My psychiatrist told me I'm in denial. I said "That's impossible, I've never even BEEN to Egypt!"

Now, is it simply a matter of interpretation that "denial" sounds an awful lot like "da Nile"? Perhaps, but then I'd say it's an interpretation that is likley to be shared by almost anyone who knows that the Nile is a river in Egypt. Otherwise, there'd be no point to telling the joke, because no one would get it. And I think you'll find that almost anyone who has any knowledge of the issue of sexual harrasment, and the environments in which it is most commonly regarded as taking place, is going to conclude that the billboard in question was making a joke about the sexual harrasment of waitresses.

As for the distinction between private and public humour: I am of a particular ethnic group, and sometimes my friends entertain me by doing unflattering imitations of that group, complete with mangled English, ludicrous accents, and stunted thought processes. Personally, I think it's hilarious. But context is everything, and it would be quite another matter if humour directed against that or any ethnic group were publically displayed as advertising, where the context is far less easily controlled. And I think the same goes for jokes about sexual harassment.

[ 19 December 2004: Message edited by: voice of the damned ]

[ 20 December 2004: Message edited by: voice of the damned ]

Your protest not only targeted that particular bilboard, but also said "we are not going to let these things slide all the time in order to look 'fun' and 'laid back'".
You would not believe how tolerant my age group is of harassment and sexism. On the other hand, they are quick to become enraged at the mention of racism/the philosophy behind racism (when really, both sexism and racism are, at their core, forms of stereotype and poor treatment of a group based on those stereotypes). I've seen the porn industry become more and more mainstream/glamourized amoungst high school students (I was in grade 12 last year) and have seen the results this has had on their realtionships, but I found fighting the constant message "you're just a sex object" almost impossible to "just ignore".
In actuality, it's a matter of equal rights in general - since when did this become a just a "Woman's group" issue?
When I drove by that day I felt like jumping out and hugging you all. I was beginning to lose faith in humanity but your protest helped restore it.
I'm not sure what was done at the Ale House regarding this billboard, but if you did not get through to them, you at least made an impact on me by showing some people still care about these issues.
Thanks

[ 03 January 2005: Message edited by: katelegreat ]

[ 03 January 2005: Message edited by: katelegreat ]

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if someone wants to fix my nose for free i'd appreciate it!

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I am a little sad that the thing wasn't burned or otherwise defaced by enterprising young anarchists.

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