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Author Topic: Common sense? OBVIOUSLY NOT
charlieM
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posted 11 May 2006 09:30 PM      Profile for charlieM     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Household income affects children's well-being


This is an issue I tried to take to my school board when I was in high school. But, what kind of information besides my own observations could I have shown them?
People's well-being is all they have; everything in ones life is directly affected by his or her well-being. The first thing that comes to my mind is education. If children's well being is affected by their parent's income then they are going to get better marks. Now, that of course can be seen as a stretch, especially when so many of the poor kids in highschool get better marks than the "rich" kids (you know who i'm talking about, they were in your classes). But, as I thought (knew?) when i orignally pondered this issue, the good marks from poors kids are from environmental issues such as; having a part-time job (which has been shown to be linked with high marks), or, looking at their lives and beleiving that good marks will send them to university (make more money in the future).
So, should income be a factor when children are being graded in schools?


From: hamilton | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Sineed
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posted 11 May 2006 09:38 PM      Profile for Sineed     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Studies have also shown that tall people have the advantage over short people not just in height but in income. And less attractive children are regarded as less intelligent than cuter children. Maybe we should give the short ugly kids a break too.
From: # 668 - neighbour of the beast | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
otter
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posted 11 May 2006 10:14 PM      Profile for otter        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Family income is quite relevant to determining if there are nutritional needs that might not be getting met in poorer families which plays into learning abilities.
From: agent provocateur inc. | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
sknguy
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posted 12 May 2006 05:36 PM      Profile for sknguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sineed:
Studies have also shown that tall people have the advantage over short people not just in height but in income. And less attractive children are regarded as less intelligent than cuter children. Maybe we should give the short ugly kids a break too.

I recall some time back in the early 1990's, while waiting impatiently in a tire shop, a sociologist was being interviewed by... hmm, I can’t remember the talk show but think it was Oprah Winfrey. But sitting on a nearby chair was Joan Collins. The sociologist was noting a study she had conducted and that she observed that less attractive people have much more interesting lives than people who have not had the same struggles as attractive people.

The sociologist went on to describe social struggles as an intellectual stimulant in life. What stuck in my mind was the absolutely shocked look on Collins’ face upon hearing this. It was quite a hilarious moment.

Forgot to mention the tire shop had a TV... sorry.

[ 12 May 2006: Message edited by: sknguy ]


From: Saskatchewan | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
charlieM
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posted 12 May 2006 08:20 PM      Profile for charlieM     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
so, the injustices of this world are there for good and should just be accepted eh? hmmm, i can think of a few (that i wouldn't want to touch with a 40 foot pole) that are accepted... but acted, quite rightously upon...I think one of them has been in the new for the past few months, well, it relates to an injustice).
From: hamilton | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Summer
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posted 13 May 2006 12:02 AM      Profile for Summer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by charlieM:

So, should income be a factor when children are being graded in schools?


Seriously???

How would this even work? The grading guidelines would go something like this I suppose: super rich kids: A = 95%; upper middle class: A = 88%; middle class: A = 82%; lower middle class: A = 77%; low income: A = 73%; below poverty line: A = 60%. This is offensive. It suggests that your intelligence/capabilities are related to your family's income.

Perhaps I misunderstood your question. If you are suggesting that resources be made available to lower income children (who often come from single-parent - usually single-mother - households, meaning the parents work long hours and do not have as much time to help with homework), then I completely agree. Not everyone can afford private tutoring or to send their kids to Kumon or Sylvan learning Centre. Schools should have mentoring programs and after school homework help available to all students. Hot lunch and/or breakfast should also be provided in certain cases.

But grading on a different scale according to income - ridiculous.

ETA: link to StatsCan report and data on which the article was written. Maybe a Babbler with a good head for stats can give us their interpretation of it.
Note that students in the lowest income bracket are less likely to read for pleasure and also less likely to finish homework on time or do homework at all. I don't think a different grading scale is the solution here. Instead, schools must determine why students aren't doing the work at home. Like I said above, after school homework help is a step in the right direction.

[ 13 May 2006: Message edited by: Summer ]


From: Ottawa | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 13 May 2006 12:25 AM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by otter:
Family income is quite relevant to determining if there are nutritional needs that might not be getting met in poorer families which plays into learning abilities.

I can relate to this. One of my friends came from a economically-challenged family, and his lunches (in public school) were almost always a thin layer of peanut butter on white bread sandwiches. I often stayed with his family on weekends, and it was always starchy foods, heavy on the white bread. I think that whole family (a lot of kids) barely survived through high school, and the oldest dropped out altogether.


From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Sineed
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posted 13 May 2006 12:35 PM      Profile for Sineed     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Boom boom I don't know what your childhood friend would have for lunch today because peanut butter, a low-cost high-quality protein, has been banned from our schools. The white bread is still accepted, however.

It's a good point, though. When I was in kindergarten in southern Maryland (not exactly a liberal heartland) every student got a small carton of milk and a snack in the morning before we did anything.

But surely finding strategies, such as better nutrition, to help struggling students is more practical in the long run than lowering standards to suit them.


From: # 668 - neighbour of the beast | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 13 May 2006 09:08 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oh, I don't know what the answers (or even the questions) are. But, back then, I was between 8 - 13 years old, and traded lunches back and forth with my friends, a few whom were really at the low end of the socioeconomic scale, but we were friends, and I thought friends looked out for one another. I was well fed and thus had no problem at all with trading away rich food for peanut butter (and jam) sandwiches. On those days when I thought to bring a small pocketknife, I'd split an apple in two and share. On the other end of the socioeconomic scale, another good friend's dad was a credit manager of Canada Packers, and his mum packed him a thermos of hot weiners every day that he'd make hot dogs with at school. Terrible diet for someone so young. Never did get rid of his baby fat. I'd like to see pop machines and junk foods banned from schools as a start. If an apple costs as much as a can of pop, well, what the hell, it's healthier, and water is free at the fountain.
From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
charlieM
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posted 14 May 2006 06:35 PM      Profile for charlieM     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
nutrition in children from low income families has been an issue in schools for a very long time. Kids learn better on a full stumach. The best solution the ministry of education (or whomever was actualy responsible for the intitiative) was that breakfast for poors kids program... Now, i never took advantage of this, and actually living poor in an affluant community gave me no access to such programs. It doesnt really matter anyways because all they f'n gave the kids was a bowl of cereal or a bagel. Now, i have such breakfast all the time, at least i get to choose harvest crunch over fruitloops (which was the choice free cereal for poor kids).
But the issue is faaaaaaaaaaaar more than nutrition; it's homework, partime jobs, stress levels, parent's health/education, motivation. the issue here, in a nut shell is, "There is nothing more unequal than treating unequals equally." i dont know who orginally said it, but my VP in highschool said it on the announcements one morning and it fueled my anger, to say the least.

[ 14 May 2006: Message edited by: charlieM ]


From: hamilton | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Sineed
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posted 14 May 2006 10:57 PM      Profile for Sineed     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
"There is nothing more unequal than treating unequals equally."
Nobody here will disagree with that statement. But your suggestion would have the opposite effect. Economically disadvantaged kids who get marked more leniently would get a poorer education by virtue of being deprived of learning from their mistakes. Your idea would result in even greater inequities than when you started and subvert the education system by teaching kids that brains don't matter as much as socioeconomic status.

From: # 668 - neighbour of the beast | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
otter
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posted 14 May 2006 11:33 PM      Profile for otter        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Common sense has never been very common or made much sense.
From: agent provocateur inc. | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
charlieM
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posted 15 May 2006 12:36 AM      Profile for charlieM     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
for the record... i did not suggest more lenient grading for kids from low income families. However, teachers do naturally take into account individual characteristics like the effort kids put into assignments. This is because the marks children receive in school do not always reflect their abilities.
i really don't see what the argument is here. All i did was indentify a REAL issue, that cannot be argued with. I asked a question that was the closest thing to an answer to the issue i could think of at the moment i finished the post...

From: hamilton | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Farces
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posted 15 May 2006 12:55 PM      Profile for Farces   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It is easier to fake being poor in school than it is to cheat on a test. If faking poor meant better success, I think rich kids would play this game and play it very well. I think their parents would help them.
From: 43°41' N79°38' W | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
arborman
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posted 15 May 2006 05:22 PM      Profile for arborman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Grades certainly should not be linked to socioeconomic status.

Support in seeking and achieving good grades should definitely be available for those who need it. That can be in the form of services provided to everyone - i.e. healthy meals in school for breakfast and lunch.

Not much can be done in the school about a difficult home life, but schools can be set up to encourage healthy learning. Mitigating the effects of poverty would be an excellent start.


From: I'm a solipsist - isn't everyone? | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sineed
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posted 15 May 2006 08:43 PM      Profile for Sineed     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Or maybe after-school study halls that kids from chaotic homes can use to get homework done.
From: # 668 - neighbour of the beast | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 15 May 2006 09:08 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Two words: public. libraries.
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
charlieM
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posted 15 May 2006 10:20 PM      Profile for charlieM     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
well seeing as how no one interestred in this thread enough to post is not interested enough to believe that there is a direct solution, no point in going on with it.

ps. when filling out many forms that may not determine grades, but can have the same outcome as good grades, people are commonly asked if they are a visable minority (enough said).


From: hamilton | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged

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