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Originally posted by lagatta:
I hope the ceremony also included a secular facet for the countless victims of Nazi violence who did not believe in any religion, whether their origins were Jewish, some form of Christian, both, or other. If not, it is yet another act of confiscation of memory.

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So of course we must take a religious ceremony in which believers turn to God for consolation and strength, and ruin it by including some atheist ...

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Balderdash. Including the "non-faithful" is no more difficult (nor inappropriate) than including different faiths, and by no means does it "ruin" it for everyone.

Giving an atheist a Christian or Jewish funeral or memorial is no more appropriate than giving a Christian or a Jew a Hindu funeral or memorial.

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If it is a joint Jewish and Christian ceremony, it's likely to try to remember everyone.

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Wow.

[ 29 March 2005: Message edited by: Coyote ]

Nobody wishes to insult the beliefs of observant Jews and Christians! I don't believe in God, and certainly think a rabbi, priest etc should be included in the commemorative ceremony.

The secular commemorative ceremonies I've attended commemorated the lives of the people who have died, their contribution to the world, how their memory lives on and continues to enrich the world. I've never heard any petty cracks about "religion is a bunch of hokum" - for one thing, that would be needlessly offensive to persons of faith attending the ceremony.

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Originally posted by Contrarian:
Posters on this forum have been extremely disparaging of religious people and religious beliefs time and time again; I do not see why I should be more sensitive to their beliefs than they have been to mine.

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You constitute the majority in North America. We constitute a minority.

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Posters on this forum have been extremely disparaging of religious people and religious beliefs time and time again; I do not see why I should be more sensitive to their beliefs than they have been to mine.

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What I am objecting to are the people here and now who are refusing to allow Christians and Jews to perform a religious ceremony to commit the ashes of these people to God and to pray for everyone who died there, whatever their beliefs. And why couldn't other people hold a separate secular memorial? No one is saying they can't do it, just that they have no business trying to hi-jack a RELIGIOUS ceremony.

[ 29 March 2005: Message edited by: Contrarian ]

YOU are the one being needlessly divisive, and you should damn well be ashamed of yourself.

[ 29 March 2005: Message edited by: Coyote ]

There are many such ceremonies - I attended the memorial for the victims of the Vel d'Hiv roundup of Jews in Paris - there was a rabbi present, an old resistant who gave a secular speech, and representatives of the state apologising for French complicity in these crimes.

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How can a ceremony be separate, when the ashes of the dead are forever intermingled?

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Originally posted by Contrarian:
Boy, are you guys twisting this argument! Tell you what; using quotations and the context, demonstrate exactly how I could be said to have disparaged any victims of the Holocaust.

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Originally posted by Contrarian:
No answer for this, Coyote, and all who swallowed his false accusation?

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And I already quoted where you said that a joint Jewish/Christian ceremony would "cover" the athiests; oh, and also the part where you said atheists wouldn't care because

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maybe some of those who died were atheists, whom atheists presumably believe are now non-existent and would know nothing about it anyway.

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In case you haven't figured it out yet, you hateful little person, we're the ones arguing for inclusion. YOU are the one who says our beliefs don't matter enough to be included.

When you're in a hole, quit digging Contrarian.

[ 29 March 2005: Message edited by: Coyote ]

I'm just posting to say that I wish that all the good people on this thread could take a deep breath, see that it might be worth cutting one another a bit of slack for time needed to understand and interpret, and then try again.

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Originally posted by Draco:
You would require the acknowledgement of the atheists who were killed, on terms which would respect their beliefs, to be relegated to a separate ceremony. That would qualify as disparaging them, in my opinion.

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Anyone is welcome to hold a secular ceremony and I would expect such a ceremony to also memorialize ALL of the people who died, not just the atheists and communists.

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As someone has mentioned, there can't be a separate, secular ceremony to bury the ashes. It can only be done once. The point is that the ceremony should be inclusive of all the victims, reflective and respectful of their beliefs. It should be as inclusive as possible.

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It is a waste of time trying to list and "be inclusive" of every single political opinion and belief and sect and ethnic group and sexual identity of the people who died; because you are going to leave someone out.

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It is not a waste of time to honour the dead by respecting their beliefs. It is very human to desire a memorial which reflects one's beliefs; they are at the core of who one is. It should be as inclusive as possible.

[ 29 March 2005: Message edited by: Draco ]

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Anyone is welcome to hold a secular ceremony and I would expect such a ceremony to also memorialize ALL of the people who died, not just the atheists and communists.

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So you wouldn't be offended if, the next day, the non-Christian, non-Jewish remembrants dug up the ashes and reburied them? Great! Thanks!

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It is a waste of time trying to list and "be inclusive" of every single political opinion and belief and sect and ethnic group and sexual identity of the people who died; because you are going to leave someone out.

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How about we leave the Christians out this time then? You seem rather unconcerned about someone being excluded, so you wouldn't mind if it's you this time then? Again, great!

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I mean, should we demand that a Christian-Jewish ceremony include Orthodox, Conservative and Reform rabbis as well as Roman Catholic, Lutheran, Eastern Orthodox, Calvinist priests and ministers as well as ministers for any other sect that possibly had some adherents among the dead?

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Uh, if this were solely scheduled to be a Jewish ceremony, and if Christians weren't invited, you'd be furious. You wouldn't be saying "Oh, should we demand that a Jewish ceremony include Christian and ....".

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Originally posted by Contrarian:
What you are saying, Draco, is that Jews and Christians must not be allowed to practice their religion.

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What!?!

The problem is not that you folks want to memorialize the victims; the problem is that you want to prevent Jews and Christians from holding their own religious ceremony.

[ 29 March 2005: Message edited by: Contrarian ]

La Rose et le Réséda

Celui qui croyait au ciel
Celui qui n'y croyait pas
Tous deux adoraient la belle
Prisonnière des soldats
Lequel montait à l'échelle
Et lequel guettait en bas
Celui qui croyait au ciel
Celui qui n'y croyait pas

Qu'importe comment s'appelle
Cette clarté sur leur pas
Que l'un fut de la chapelle
Et l'autre s'y dérobât
Celui qui croyait au ciel
Celui qui n'y croyait pas
Tous les deux étaient fidèles
Des lèvres du coeur des bras
Et tous les deux disaient qu'elle
Vive et qui vivra verra
Celui qui croyait au ciel
Celui qui n'y croyait pas

Quand les blés sont sous la grêle
Fou qui fait le délicat
Fou qui songe à ses querelles
Au coeur du commun combat
Celui qui croyait au ciel
Celui qui n'y croyait pas

Du haut de la citadelle
La sentinelle tira
Par deux fois et l'un chancelle
L'autre tombe qui mourra
Celui qui croyait au ciel
Celui qui n'y croyait pas

Ils sont en prison Lequel
A le plus triste grabat
Lequel plus que l'autre gèle
Lequel préfère les rats
Celui qui croyait au ciel
Celui qui n'y croyait pas

Un rebelle est un rebelle
Deux sanglots font un seul glas
Et quand vient l'aube cruelle
Passent de vie à trépas
Celui qui croyait au ciel
Celui qui n'y croyait pas

Répétant le nom de celle
Qu'aucun des deux ne trompa
Et leur sang rouge ruisselle
Même couleur même éclat
Celui qui croyait au ciel
Celui qui n'y croyait pas

Il coule il coule il se mêle
À la terre qu'il aima
Pour qu'à la saison nouvelle
Mûrisse un raisin muscat
Celui qui croyait au ciel
Celui qui n'y croyait pas

L'un court et l'autre a des ailes
De Bretagne ou du Jura
Et framboise ou mirabelle
Le grillon rechantera
Dites flûte ou violoncelle
Le double amour qui brûla
L'alouette et l'hirondelle
La rose et le réséda

I believe that Sachsenhausen was one of the earlier camps the Nazis set up, before the beginning of the war, and because it was so close to Berlin it was a convenient place to send many political prisoners, although pogroms against German Jews had begun before the war started too. So I think that the population was always diverse (in terms of the reasons people were condemned), more so than in many other camps, especially those set up later in the east.

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Originally posted by Contrarian:
Honestly, you guys are like a bunch of medieval Christians arguing over relics. Why do you care if you have the ashes handy or not?

The problem is not that you folks want to memorialize the victims; the problem is that you want to prevent Jews and Christians from holding their own religious ceremony.

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The committal of the ashes to the earth is not a trivial thing. It can only be done once. I just think it is important to truly acknowledge, to the best we are able, the beliefs of those who are being honoured through this act.

Having a row over how to best pay tribute while laying to rest the remains of those killed by the Nazis.

Wow.

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There is some soul of goodness in things evil,
Would men observingly distil it out.
Wm Shakespeare

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A poem about internees in an early Nazi concentration camp (in German and English). This particular camp was in the northern moorlands near the Dutch border:

Wohin auch das Auge blicket, Moor und Heide nur ringsum
Vogelsang uns nicht erquicket, Eichen stehen kahl und krumm.
Wir sind die Moorsoldaten und ziehen mit dem Spaten ins Moor!
Wir sind die Moorsoldaten und ziehen mit dem Spaten ins Moor!

Auf und nieder geh'n die Posten, keiner, keiner kann hindurch.
Flucht wird nur das Leben kosten! Vierfach ist umzäunt die Burg.
Wir sind die Moorsoldaten und ziehen mit dem Spaten ins Moor.
Wir sind die Moorsoldaten und ziehen mit dem Spaten ins Moor.

Doch für uns gibt es kein Klagen, ewig kann's nicht Winter sein.
Einmal werden froh wir sagen: Heimat, du bist wieder mein!
Dann zieh'n die Moorsoldaten nicht mehr mit dem Spaten ins Moor.
Dann zieh'n die Moorsoldaten nicht mehr mit dem Spaten ins Moor.

Far and wide as the eye can wander, bog and moor are everywhere
Not a bird sings out to cheer us, oaks are standing bent and bare.
We are the peat bog soldiers, we're marching with our spades to the bog.
We are the peat bog soldiers, we're marching with our spades to the bog.

Up and down the guards are pacing, no one, no one can break through
Flight would mean a sure death facing, guns and barbed wire greet our view.
We are the peat bog soldiers, we're marching with our spades to the bog.
We are the peat bog soldiers, we're marching with our spades to the bog.

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Originally posted by skdadl:

We can restore general good feeling and respect here, as we should.

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She has also decided it is alright to demean the beliefs and struggles of many of those who died for their beliefs, simply because they do not conform to hers.

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Originally posted by Contrarian:
...I would happily attend a Jewish funeral, a Christian funeral and a secular memorial. But I would not demand that they arrange their services to reflect my own beliefs and I would not tell them they are not allowed to pray for certain ashes that might not have belonged to their group...

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...I would expect a joint Christian-Jewish ceremony to remember all of the victims WITHOUT specifying what percentage held which religious or political beliefs and which percentage of the ashes we will pray for and which percentage we will not pray for because they may not have believed in God. They were all murdered, they were all victims, the specific reasons why each person was murdered is not important; we would ask God to bless all of them. THE POINT IS THAT IT IS A RELIGIOUS CEREMONY! Anyone is welcome to hold a secular ceremony and I would expect such a ceremony to also memorialize ALL of the people who died, not just the atheists and communists...

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I will just add that if I had heard there was going to be a Jewish service I would have no objection, and I would never be so arrogant as to say they must include Christian speakers or part of the Christian liturgy in their service. I would still be willing to attend, as I would for a memorial run by homosexuals, gypsies, communists, Lutherans or any other group.

Some posters have argued either that a religious service should be not allowed, or it should be watered down into a non-religious committee meeting and THAT is what I object to. If you want a secular service, go ahead but do not ban religious services.

As for who gets to bury the actual ashes, WHO CARES? They are just physical remains, they have no mystical meaning, no soul, nothing there to appreciate what is being done with them 60 years after the life went out of them. I mean, I'm not a big fan of open casket funerals, they never look as if they are just sleeping to me; and I see no big difference between having a funeral with the body present or a memorial service after the body has been buried.

[ 29 March 2005: Message edited by: Contrarian ]

[ 29 March 2005: Message edited by: Coyote ]

[ 29 March 2005: Message edited by: Coyote ]

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Sachsenhausen/ConcentrationCamp/Tour01.html

I thank Bacchus again for this link. It is a pity that someone is small-minded. And no, I don't like it any more when it is us atheists who insult people of faith. I think it is essential that there be a rabbi and a Christian cleric. It isn't a matter of silly political correctness. The Nazis added insult to injury by making sure that their victims would disappear in "night and fog". (Nacht und Nebel). A generation later, their pupils of Operation Condor did the same - Ningun Nombre, the desaparecid@s.

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Originally posted by Contrarian:
No, Magoo. I would happily attend a Jewish funeral, a Christian funeral and a secular memorial. But I would not demand that they arrange their services to reflect my own beliefs and I would not tell them they are not allowed to pray for certain ashes that might not have belonged to their group.

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Are you on crack?

DavisMavis is quite right to offer people a chance to breathe deeply, realize that many have been writing right past each other in this thread, not offering anyone else a chance to rethink a bit and concede a bit.

Skdadl, I disagree. Contrarian was extremely insulting and there is no reason to find common ground with her on this matter. Nobody on this thread insulted people of faith or said prayers or clerics should not play a part in the ceremony.

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Originally posted by DavisMavis:
Can't they have an interfaith kind of service, maybe with multiple speakers or something?

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That's all anyone was asking for right from the start of this thread.

No, I don't REALLY think Contrarian is "on crack", it's just an expression, and maybe one I shouldn't have used. Although I think, reading this thread, that she might have forgotten to take her reading comprehension pills yesterday if she can interpret the posts in this thread, including lagatta's beginning post, as a request to banish religious people from the service, or stop them from doing a religious observance.

And it's been explained to her again and again and again and again that this is not what was meant, and she stubbornly sticks to her misinterpretation.

Y'know, most people are willing to do a little self-criticism in a fair environment. I think that Contrarian has shown herself to be a babbler of that capacity, but for a few hours yesterday, things here were happening too hot and fast for anyone to be fair.

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One hundred and fifty urns, each holding 30 kilograms (66 pounds) of ashes, were buried near the camp's former crematorium in a joint Christian and Jewish ceremony.

The names of some victims were read aloud in symbolic tribute to all of those who died.

"It is an act of piety," said Adam Koenig, among some 50 survivors of the camp who attended Tuesday's ceremony.

"We should not be allowed to forget them," said Koenig, who traveled from Frankfurt, as the ashes were interred.

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Skdadl, I appreciate your fairmindedness very much.

Lagatta, I started off too harshly and I am sorry for that; I still think that a ceremony either has to be religious, in which case God is mentioned and spoken to and present, or non-religious, in which case God is not mentioned. If the first is thought to leave out the non-religious dead, the second leaves out the religious dead. I don't actuaqlly believe either kind of ceremony would actually leave anyone out, but I think that if a religious ceremony is planned, it should not be expected to become non-religious.

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Originally posted by Contrarian:
Lagatta, I started off too harshly and I am sorry for that; I still think that a ceremony either has to be religious, in which case God is mentioned and spoken to and present, or non-religious, in which case God is not mentioned. If the first is thought to leave out the non-religious dead, the second leaves out the religious dead. I don't actuaqlly believe either kind of ceremony would actually leave anyone out, but I think that if a religious ceremony is planned, it should not be expected to become non-religious.

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Originally posted by Contrarian:

Coyote, you made a false accusation which you did not back up, and you refused to pay attention to what I did say. You owe me an apology.

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