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Author Topic: Columbia FTA: 'kill-unionist-pay-fine'
farnival
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posted 09 July 2008 04:54 AM      Profile for farnival     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
NDP slams Columbia deal's 'kill-unionist-pay-fine'

quote:
Federal New Democratic Party Leader Jack Layton says it's "simply outrageous" for Ottawa to sign a trade deal with Colombia with a clause calling for the South American nation to pay a fine to a special fund whenever a union activist is murdered....

...The Harper government announced the trade deal last month, before the parliamentary committee studying trade with Colombia completed its work. A few days later, the committee tabled a report recommending no deal be signed without a human rights review.


this is just macabre and beyond human decency. facists supporting facists.

and another example of Harper and the Cons contempt for parliamentary process and i would say the people of our country as a whole.

i feel sick.

(and no, this isn't a thread title with a babbler's name in it)

[ 09 July 2008: Message edited by: farnival ]


From: where private gain trumps public interest, and apparently that's just dandy. | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 09 July 2008 08:57 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It really is appalling. That the Republicans will use our good example to push Liberal Democrats in that country for a similar deal with Colombia is a farce. Both Obama and McCain have ignored the basic human rights abuses perpetrated by Uribe's right-wing death squads over the last several months. The criminal president and his cronies have used US aid money to oppress political opposition, and have bribed judges in order to change Colombia's constitution. Disappearances and state-sponsored murder of Colombians has been stepped up to a frenzied pace since the Americanos have made a front-line state of Colombia.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 09 July 2008 10:54 AM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This is revolting.

Fortunately, the labour movement has been on the case for at least 7 weeks now.


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 09 July 2008 11:01 AM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It is typical of our poster "Fidel" that he would use this thread to lie about Obama, instread of concentrating on the main point, which is the murder of trade unionists in Colombia.

I don't want to derail the thread, but here's what Obama has said about this trade deal:

quote:
“I am for a free trade agreement with Peru, but oppose that of Colombia, until I am certain they are not killing union leaders. We must stop this kind of paramilitary activity,” he said.

http://colombiareports.com/2008/06/11/obama-opposes-colombia-free-trade-agreement/


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 09 July 2008 01:15 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by jeff house:
It is typical of our poster "Fidel" that he would use this thread to lie about Obama, instread of concentrating on the main point, which is the murder of trade unionists in Colombia.

Where do the bulk of Latin America's dictators and right-wing death squad leaders receive their education in terror and torture, Jeff?

Obama and the School of the Americas

It's as Chomsky says, that U.S. voters have become irrelevant in the overall scheme of things. It's a democracy gap, Jeff. There is no need for vicious toadying to a nuclear-powered rogue empire in a progressive forum. Stop embarrassing yourself.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 09 July 2008 01:45 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The biggest embarassment is to respond to people like yourself who lie openly, and don't have the decency to admit they are wrong.

You claimed Obama supported free trade for Colombia, and was unconcerned about the deaths of trade unionists.

Obama opposes free trade with Colombia, as the quote says, because of the deaths of trade unionists.

Until you admit you lied, I am treating you as still beneath contempt.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 09 July 2008 01:47 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Good. You can do that by staying out of this thread from now on, Jeff. You are no longer welcome to post in this thread since your first post was hostile and targeted another poster, and your follow-up was just as nasty.

Fidel, just because someone personally attacks you doesn't give you license to do it back. I'm not banning you from the thread since you didn't start the nasty tone. But your post was an escalation of it, and that's really not necessary.

God, I hope the new software has a twit filter. In the meantime, can't you guys pretend it has one and just ignore posts by people you can't stand?

[ 09 July 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 09 July 2008 01:51 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Liberal Democrats have demonstrated a certain propensity for lying to the public. He's already wobbling on Iraq. Obama will not give socialized medicine to Americans, even though approximately 80% of Americans surveyed want their broken healthcare system fixing. Obama is a warmongering plutocrat same as the rest. The vast majority of real Americans aren't as naive, Jeff.

Okay Michelle. I'll tone it down.

[ 09 July 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 09 July 2008 04:48 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
God, I hope the new software has a twit filter. In the meantime, can't you guys pretend it has one and just ignore posts by people you can't stand?
Just as a matter of curiosity, Michelle, have you ever ignored a poster's personal attack against you?

From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 09 July 2008 04:51 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I have, many times. As a moderator, I probably get personally attacked more than anyone here. But not always, and it's not easy.

But you're right. Sigh. Something I try to work on continually. And I usually try not to escalate it by making gratuitous attacks back. Again, I don't always succeed.

I would be fine with it if you or anyone else would hold me accountable when I screw up. That's the pitfall of being a moderator and a participant, I guess. It's my job to try to enforce the rules when others break them, but it's no one else's job to enforce the rules when I break them. So I try not to break them.

[ 09 July 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 12 August 2008 02:50 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
So...back on topic!

Labour leaders: No to Colombia FTA

quote:
We visited Colombia from July 18-25 on behalf of one million Canadian public sector workers. Our mission, among other tasks, was to see for ourselves whether our opposition to the Canada-Colombia free trade agreement was justified. What we saw and learned confirmed that we are right to oppose this deal and to speak out against it on behalf of Colombian workers and their families.

From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
A_J
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posted 12 August 2008 05:13 AM      Profile for A_J     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm not really sure what the problem is with the agreement? Obviously this fine doesn't replace existing criminal prohibitions and penalties against committing murder - no one is going to avoid jail time for murdering a union member by simply paying a fine.

Rather, this requires the Colombian government itself to take ownership and responsibility for these crimes, which are carried out by the paramilitary forces that often operate with the government's tacit approval.

Is the fine perhaps not high enough to matter? What do people suggest as a stronger sanction that would compel the government to reign-in the paramilitary forces?


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N.Beltov
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posted 12 August 2008 05:18 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
To sign a free trade agreement with Colombia as long as trade unionists are at risk and free collective bargaining and other labour and human rights continue to be violated can only contribute to an increase in the “crimes against humanity” that were documented by the tribunal.

What part of "crimes against humanity", "imminent danger of physical and cultural extinction", genocide and "no meaningful legal framework for collective bargaining" don't you understand?

[ 12 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
A_J
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posted 12 August 2008 06:02 AM      Profile for A_J     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, I guess it's a question of what is the best course of action - refusing to interact with Colombia and leaving it alone to kill all of the union members it wants, or attempting some kind of progress by employing various carrots and sticks?
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M. Spector
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posted 12 August 2008 07:05 AM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The first stick would be "no trade deal until you stop killing trade unionists." Duh!
From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
A_J
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posted 09 September 2008 06:10 AM      Profile for A_J     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
The first stick would be "no trade deal until you stop killing trade unionists." Duh!

Apparently these days belonging to a union in Colombia makes it far less likely that you will be murdered:

quote:
New York Times:
But Colombia’s progress has been immense. Assassinations of union members, while still a problem, have fallen 80 percent since 2002. Last year, the murder rate for union members was 4 per 100,000, reaching levels far below the homicide rate for the general public.

Nation Master - Colombia: 62 murders per 100,000 people

Sounds like there are few good reasons left for opposing a trade deal with Colombia.


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N.Beltov
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posted 09 September 2008 06:21 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Nation Master lists the CIA as its number one source of information. In light of the uncountable number of atrocities by that organization, and the fact that it is an arm of the US government, which supports such trade deals that exclude basic matters of human rights, any statistics from such an organization is highly questionable.
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
farnival
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posted 09 September 2008 06:40 AM      Profile for farnival     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
the fact that there is a statistical "murder rate" for union members is reason alone to tell columbia to get lost.
From: where private gain trumps public interest, and apparently that's just dandy. | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
A_J
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posted 09 September 2008 07:39 AM      Profile for A_J     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:
Nation Master lists the CIA as its number one source of information. In light of the uncountable number of atrocities by that organization, and the fact that it is an arm of the US government, which supports such trade deals that exclude basic matters of human rights, any statistics from such an organization is highly questionable.
Maybe you could tell us if the Russian government has a more reliable and trustworthy figure for the murder rate in Colombia

In all seriousness, the murder rate is one of the statistics not collected by the CIA Factbook (which is where Nation Master would get any of its CIA-sourced data, just like anyone else). Therefore that figure must have come from somewhere else . . . such as:

quote:
SOURCE: Seventh United Nations Survey of Crime Trends and Operations of Criminal Justice Systems, covering the period 1998 - 2000 (United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, Centre for International Crime Prevention)
That was pretty easy, it was even posted at the bottom of my link.

quote:
Originally posted by farnival:
the fact that there is a statistical "murder rate" for union members is reason alone to tell columbia to get lost.
(number of murder victims who were members of a trade union) / (total trade union membership)


There's nothing complicated - or, as you'd like to imply, sinister - about it. You could just as easily do the same thing with homicide in Canada or any other country, provided you had that information about the victims.

I mean, if you're concerned about violence against union members, surely you'd want statistics kept on the scope of the problem, no?

[ 09 September 2008: Message edited by: A_J ]


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N.Beltov
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posted 09 September 2008 08:33 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
There are more labour activists and labour leaders murdered in Colombia than in all the other countries of the planet put together. – And do you know what was the response of Prime Minister Stephen Harper to such human rights concerns?

He said that it is ridiculous to raise human rights issues during his trade negotiations!

So... when is a good time to discuss human and social rights abuses? When is a good time to discuss the murder of 2,245 workers? After you negotiate a trade deal? – Now, really, who is being ridiculous?


http://canadianlabour.ca/en/a4767e28102e7b

That was Ken Georgetti at the BC Fed Convention last year. More recently, a group of US legislators has written a letter to the scum-bag Conservative government of Canada to urge the latter to reject any trade agreement with the barbarous and murderous Colombian narco state. Of course, Conservative Harper put trade ahead of human rights ... just as all Conservatives, right wingers, and other misanthropes do.

quote:
Parliament of Canada
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
K1A 0A9

Re: Canada-Colombia Free Trade Agreement

Dear Members of Parliament,

For almost two decades, the United States and Canada have been closely linked economically, first through the U.S.-Canada Free Trade Agreement, and later the North American Free Trade Agreement. Now, our respective governments are negotiating trade agreements with many of the same countries. These agreements will no doubt have an impact on both our respective economies and on our unique bilateral relationship. It is in this light that we would very much like to open a continuing dialogue with you about our respective trade policies and exchange views about the kind of policies needed to promote broadly shared benefits for the people of the United States, of Canada, and of our trading partners.

Last year, the United States concluded negotiations and signed a bilateral free trade agreement with Colombia. Even though the White House has not yet submitted the agreement to Congress for consideration, it has already generated considerable controversy and debate. While we support trade with Colombia, we have very serious concerns about deepening and making permanent that economic relationship at this time and with this agreement. First, we are disturbed by the human rights situation in the country, and the fact that many of these horrific crimes are committed with impunity. The ongoing repression of workers is of particular concern and is an issue that no labor chapter in a trade agreement will fix. Second, we simply do not believe that the trade agreement will foster the broad-based economic development needed in Colombia or that it will generate substantial economic opportunities at home.

It is our understanding that Canada is close to or has concluded negotiations for a bilateral trade agreement with Peru, Colombia and South Korea. We understand that these agreements are similar in many respects to our own. We would like to share some of our concerns regarding the U.S-Colombia Free Trade Agreement. These concerns, we believe, are equally applicable to the Canada-Colombia FTA.

* Labor: Colombia continues to lead the world in the number of murdered trade unionists. In 2007 alone, thirty eight labor activists were murdered. . Of the 2,262 labor activists murdered between 1991 and 2006, almost 400 were killed during the Uribe Administration. And these murders are committed with impunity - 97% remain unsolved. The ILO has also repeatedly criticized both the failure of Colombia to adopt laws consistent with the core labor standards and to enforce what domestic labor laws it does have. The combined result has been a steep decline in union density in the country.

* Corruption: Several members of Congress and high-ranking officials closely allied with President Alvaro Uribe have been arrested or are under investigation for their links with paramilitaries. In Colombia, paramilitary organizations have been linked to egregious human rights violations, including massacres and narcotrafficking. In October 2007, Mario Uribe, a cousin of President Alvaro Uribe, resigned from the Senate to avoid an inquiry by the Supreme Court into his alleged ties to paramilitaries. The government has already proposed a plan to release these politicians with little or no sanction whatsoever.

* Demobilization: The government has taken some steps to dismantle the paramilitary structures in Colombia. However, the flawed process has contributed to thousands of former paramilitary members never truly demobilizing and has led to the creation of new and dangerous criminal organizations. Recent reports from the Organization of American States have noted the resurgence of new paramilitary groups.
* These groups are found throughout the country and, while assuming distinct organizational frameworks, many of them continue the legacy of the paramilitaries, including narcotics trafficking, death threats, and assassinations.

* Extra-judicial executions: Murders committed by state actors remain a very serious and under-reported problem. The Washington Office on Latin America recently reported that human rights groups in Colombia have collected detailed information on a total of 577 cases of extrajudicial execution between July 1997 and June 2002. The same organizations detailed 955 cases over the last five years, an increase in executions of nearly 66%. From July 2006 to June 2007, extra-judicial executions have taken place in nearly all of Colombia's departments.

Additionally, we have concerns about the impact of certain chapters of the U.S.-Colombia FTA. Of particular concern are the chapters on: services, investment, procurement, intellectual property and agriculture.

We believe that no trade agreement with Colombia is acceptable at this time. We have also learned that many Colombians, including representatives of organized labor, indigenous and afro-Colombian communities, small farmers, and religious leaders strongly oppose this agreement. We urge you to consider these important issues, which no doubt will also arise in the debate over the Canada-Colombia FTA. We welcome any opportunity to commence a more detailed discussion on this agreement and on trade policy generally.

Michael H. Michaud
Betty Sutton
Phil Hare
Linda Sánchez
Nancy Boyda
Keith Ellison
Marcy Kaptur
Members of Congress


Thanks for coming. Have a nice day.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 09 September 2008 08:42 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
In a joint statement last year, both the Colombian trade union central body and the Canadian Labour Congress utterly rejected the trade talks between the Harper regime and the monstrous narco state in Colombia.

That cinches it. Of course, those who derive pleasure from the deaths of trade unionists and working people in general will find nothing in the joint statement of value.

quote:
The Canadian Labour Congress and the Central Unitaria de Trabajadores de Colombia (CUT), based on our experience with so-called free trade and investment agreements such as the North America Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), the Free Trade Area of the Americas (FTAA) and now the US-Col Free Trade Agreement, jointly declare our rejection of, and concerns with this type of extreme free-market trade and investment model which guarantees the rights of investors over the human, social, Economic, cultural and labour rights of its citizens.

From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
A_J
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posted 09 September 2008 08:55 AM      Profile for A_J     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:
Labor: Colombia continues to lead the world in the number of murdered trade unionists. In 2007 alone, thirty eight labor activists were murdered.

Total number of murders in Colombia was more than 16,000 in 2007. It's very tragic - for everyone in Colombia - but is there any reason why union members are supposed to be untouchable by crime, as opposed to the rest of Colombian society?

There are 15.4 million union members in the U.S. - if only 38 were murdered in one year, the murder rate among union members would be less than 1/10th of the national rate. Likely many more American union members lose their life through murder each year than in Colombia. I have a feeling therefore that the assertion that Colombia "leads the world" is either a) grossly inaccurate or b) missing an important qualifier.


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N.Beltov
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posted 09 September 2008 09:00 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm not sure what you're arguing. Are you in favor of an increased murder rate of trade unionists in Colombia?

I think you're on the wrong website. Try the Conservative Party instead.


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Fidel
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posted 09 September 2008 09:24 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yep, conservative party for sure.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
A_J
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posted 09 September 2008 04:43 PM      Profile for A_J     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:
I'm not sure what you're arguing. Are you in favor of an increased murder rate of trade unionists in Colombia?

Of course not.

But the argument you and others appear to be making is that we should not sign a trade agreement with Colombia because, apparently, union members in that country are being cut down in droves. None of the data I've seen suggests that that is the reality in Colombia.

Rather, union members appear to be less likely to be the victims of murder, according to the statistics. Now, that doesn't put aside the possibility - and likelihood - that some of those 38 union members were murdered because they were union members. But, when 16,000 people are murdered in Colombia in 2007 (37 in 100,000) I can't help but find the murders of 38 union members (4 in 100,000) poor evidence that the brutal campaigns against union members that were most certainly waged in the past are ongoing in Colombia today.

That is, unless there is some qualifier that has not been made clear so far - are they only reporting murders that were clearly targeted and not random or connected to some other crime (robberies, random violence, etc.)? Perhaps when they say 38 unionists they aren't talking about rank and file members but are actually referring specifically to union officials and leadership who have been killed? I would really like to know.


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Cueball
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posted 09 September 2008 04:50 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A statistician you certainly are not. Simply put such a calculation has to be made using the base percentage of people who are Union Members in comparison to the general population, in order ascertain if there is a disproportionate death rate of union members in comparison to other discrete categories of personsnot just a straight percentage of union members killed in terms of the whole population.

In other words, if there are 100 people, and 20 of them belong to Unions and 20 people are killed, 10 of them Union members and 10 of them not, Union members are 5 times more likely to be killed than non-Union members.

Moreso, why are you bothering at all with this obtuse line of thought?

[ 09 September 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 09 September 2008 04:50 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Colombian extraditions aimed at covering up Uribe’s death squad ties

Rightist Gangs Murdering Trade Unionists in Colombia

quote:
Fast forward more than 40 years and tens of thousands of deaths later: "communists" in the form of union leaders, peasant organizers, human rights workers, or indeed, anyone who dares raise their voice against the oppressive social and economic policies of a narcostate backed by the full weight of the imperialist "Colossus to the North" is a target worthy of "elimination."

Obama, Uribe, and the University of Terror


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
A_J
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posted 09 September 2008 05:38 PM      Profile for A_J     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
Simply put such a calculation has to be made using the base percentage of people who are Union Members in comparison to the general population, in order ascertain if there is a disproportionate death rate of union members in comparison to other discrete categories of personsnot just a straight percentage of union members killed in terms of the whole population.

Unfortunately I don't have the figures for union membership in Colombia. The number from the New York Times article (4 in 100,000) appears to suggest that union membership totals some 1 million in Colombia, but I have no concrete proof for that.

quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
In other words, if there are 100 people, and 20 of them belong to Unions and 20 people are killed, 10 of them Union members and 10 of them not, Union members are 5 times more likely to be killed than non-Union members.

Any greater or lesser likelihood would also be reflected in the per-capita rates that I have been using all along - in this case: 2 in 10 for the total population and 5 in 10 for the union population.

Therefore, to translate your example to Colombia:

16,000 of the total population of 44.1 million - 38 of whom were union members (of an unknown population).

As long as union members represent more than 0.25% of the Colombian population or >100,000 (for every union member who was the victim of murder, 400 non-union members were also victims), the murder rate of that population is below the national rate.


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N.Beltov
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posted 09 September 2008 06:29 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
A_J: I mean, if you're concerned about violence against union members, surely you'd want statistics kept on the scope of the problem, no?

Since you haven't yet made your position clear, despite having made 7 contributions to this thread, maybe we should start with that. Because, after all, if you're not opposed to violence against union members then you don't belong in this forum, nor do you belong on this discussion board.

So, what's your position? Let's start with that. And save the mumbo jumbo for Conservative cross-burning parties.


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Fidel
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posted 09 September 2008 06:31 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Stray_J, how many union leaders, social workers, and human rights activists were murdered in Canada over the last ten years or so? Does it strike you at all odd that leftists would be targeted like this by a government with known ties to right wing death squads and paramilitaries? Colombia is a frontline state in the war on democracy.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 09 September 2008 06:36 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, I just thought it was odd that A_J would spend so much effort on obtuse and dubious statistical manipulations when the subject is so serious. And then I realized that s/he hasn't made her/his position clear at all. So it's a bit pointless to discuss finer points when the most important one isn't clear.
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Cueball
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posted 09 September 2008 08:16 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by A_J:

Any greater or lesser likelihood would also be reflected in the per-capita rates that I have been using all along - in this case: 2 in 10 for the total population and 5 in 10 for the union population.

Therefore, to translate your example to Colombia:

16,000 of the total population of 44.1 million - 38 of whom were union members (of an unknown population).

As long as union members represent more than 0.25% of the Colombian population or >100,000 (for every union member who was the victim of murder, 400 non-union members were also victims), the murder rate of that population is below the national rate.



In other words you know nothing. Well thanks for your contribution.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 09 September 2008 08:32 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You should get an award for making sense of nonsense, Cue.
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged

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