quote:

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“Designer vaginal surgery is on the cutting edge in terms of cosmetic surgery trends, no pun intended,” says Dr. Roy Jackson, a Vancouver obstetrician and gynaecologist who specializes in vaginal and vulvar cosmetic augmentation procedures.

...

According to Matlock, the most popular surgeries are “liposculpting a mons pubis which is too fat,” laser-cutting “sagging or long labia majora,” injecting fat into the labia, tightening the vaginal passage to enhance a woman’s “sexual gratification” and even re-constructing hymens. It might sound like some kind of horror plot, but according to Matlock, “this is a no-brainer for women” who “want an overhaul.”

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and:

quote:

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Through word of mouth and an ad in a local paper in 1998, he became “inundated with calls” from women who ... wanted tighter vaginal passages.

Other women came in with porn mags, saying they wanted to look like the women in the pictures, and he developed other labial and pubic procedures to meet their needs.

Now, a whole spectrum of women from their teens to their 60s is opting for these surgeries: from waitresses to lawyers to stay-at-home-mothers. Jackson recently operated on a “high-profile supermodel” and Matlock recalls “a young nude dancer,” with “a beautiful genital structure, but excess skin like a raspberry.” So, he performed a labioplasty to “make the labia majora hug the labia minora, like a pencil.”

---

Ack!!! Two questions:

1) I thought that one of the big appeals of the vagina was that they were all unique (or have I been lied to all these years?)

2) How long before men feel forced to go to cosmetic surgeons to make their penises look "prettier"?

Tyee online link here.

[ 11 June 2005: Message edited by: Granola Girl ]

But men also undergo cosmetic surgery, from penile enlargement to hair transplants.

quote:

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Originally posted by Bobolink:

But men also undergo cosmetic surgery, from penile enlargement to hair transplants.

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quote:

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2) How long before men feel forced to go to cosmetic surgeons to make their penises look "prettier"?

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If my email inbox is any indication, men do that all the time - enough to stimulate a large market for that sort of thing.

quote:

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Originally posted by BleedingHeart:
The sad thing is that he will make more money giving women prettier tighter vaginas than he will ever make delivering babies.

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Someone who does nose jobs also makes more money than an "ear, nose and throat" specialist, and performing laser eye surgery is more profitable than helping people with glaucoma.

There is zero argument that this is a decision that involves anyone other than the woman and the doctor.

If you don't want to have it done then don't.

[ 11 June 2005: Message edited by: Hailey ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Hailey:

There is zero argument that this is a decision that involves anyone other than the woman and the doctor.

[ 11 June 2005: Message edited by: Hailey ]

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Except when you can't find an obstetrician to deliver your baby because he's too busy fixing vaginas.

quote:

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Originally posted by BleedingHeart:

By the way surgery to tigher vaginas (anterior or posterior repair) is an insured service in Canada.

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quote:

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According to Matlock, the most popular surgeries are “liposculpting a mons pubis which is too fat,”

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quote:

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There is zero argument that this is a decision that involves anyone other than the woman and the doctor.

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I beg your pardon?

There are no arguments against sheer consumerism? There are no arguments against objectifying our own bodies, and encouraging others to do that? There are no arguments against the misallocation of funds for genuine healthcare? There are no arguments against unnecessary mutiliation of the human body? No surgeon ever asked herself, "Is it wrong to cut into healthy flesh?"

quote:

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Originally posted by raccunk:
Weird. The anal bleaching thing really took me off guard.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Suzette:

I can't imagine how many drinks it would take before I'd say to a doctor, "I'd like to have my anus bleached, if you'd be so kind."

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Do I live in a bubble? Is this sort of thing common?

quote:

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Originally posted by enki42:
It's funny, I've never in my life heard a man or a woman express displeasure over the appearance of a vagina, if you ignore any hygiene-related comments.

Do I live in a bubble? Is this sort of thing common?

I think this is symptomatic of insecurity getting to the level where some women are inventing things to be insecure about, and that the ideal that women are striving for has actually far exceeded the ideal that society expects of them, and that's more than a bit worrying.

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It's just the next step in truly becoming the perfect woman -- which is to say, a living Barbie-doll. After the breast augmentation and liposuction, get your genitals trimmed so that they are equally unnatural.

[ 13 June 2005: Message edited by: Zoot ]

I have always felt that vaginas are truly something beautiful, sacred and not to be messed with. that might just be me, but vaginas are amazingly unique...and any step closer to them all be the same is scary.

quote:

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I hear they're using gummy bears for breast augmentation now.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Vigilante:
I hear they're using gummy bears for breast augmentation now.

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quote:

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Originally posted by out-of-academia:
While I do think it is sad that some folks feel they have to live up to "pornified" vaginas (that is . . . vaginas that they think are attractive, according to males), I do believe that it is their misguided right to do so.....I believe porn is the pressure behind this, for better or worse. Did women worry about this before the advent of highly accessible porn? I don't think so. . . After all, look at the recent popularity of brazilian wax jobs... 20 years ago, was this even on the radar of most women? Again, it's just trying to live up to the "ideals", however misguided. Just my opinion. Women's insecurity = big bux.

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quote:

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Originally posted by RealityBites:
Nothing could be finer than a Dr. Jones vagina in the morning

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
Uh, didn't the "Brazilian" wax job become common when thong bathing suits did? Certainly the thong was an attempt to show more skin on the beach, but I don't think they had their origins in porn.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
Certainly the thong was an attempt to show more skin on the beach, but I don't think they had their origins in porn.

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quote:

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Originally posted by RealityBites:
Don't credit me. The original lyric is "Nothing could be finer than to be in Carolina." Regardless of the singer's normal accent, it's generally sung as "fin-uh."

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Yeah, I'm sure that's how Jolson sings it. "Nothing could be fin-ah than to be in Carolin-ah in the mwaaaaaaaah-nin!"

quote:

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Originally posted by Michelle:
Why do I have visions of the singing frog from looney tunes?

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quote:

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Originally posted by MasterDebator:

I would think that thong and other extremely skimpy bikinis are indeed products of porn and porn culture. Many women have protested for years the soft core porn of the SI swimsuit issue.

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It's not the suits so much. That has much more to do with the way the models are positioned, shot angles, facial expression, etc. The same suit could be used in a photograph that wouldn't even remotely considered soft porn.

quote:

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Originally posted by Michelle:

Yeah, I'm sure that's how Jolson sings it. "Nothing could be fin-ah than to be in Carolin-ah in the mwaaaaaaaah-nin!"

Why do I have visions of the singing frog from looney tunes?

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No, no... that was an old one of Daffy Duck pretending to be a Cuban lounge singer. The same character Billy Crystal's Fernando character sent-up.

Now then, where were we?

Ah yes, thongs. My grandmother always wore thongs. It was because of her eczema-she needed air circulation.

quote:

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Originally posted by Zoot:
It's not the suits so much. That has much more to do with the way the models are positioned, shot angles, facial expression, etc. The same suit could be used in a photograph that wouldn't even remotely considered soft porn.

Hell, I've shot nude studies that are less erotic/porn-like than the SI swimsuit issue.

---

I agree that the manner of positioning the "model" has more to do with it than the clothing, or lack thereof. There is little doubt however than very skimpy so-called swim wear for women, in which it would be impractical to swim laps, is designed to appeal to the male gaze.

quote:

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Originally posted by Hailey:
I'm not wrapping my head around this at all.

I don't see what's wrong with bikini's etc and I've never even seen a porn.

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I don't wear speedos because I look like a doofus in them. It has nothing to do with them being too revealing and everything to do with my love handles, which they somehow manage to call attention to in a most unflattering way.

I've never understood what I've heard described as 'buttfloss', either in the swimsuit or underwear variety. From a male POV, they are unattractive, though I'm told they can be comfortable for some women - which puts it in the none of my business what women choose to wear category again.

quote:

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There is little doubt however than very skimpy so-called swim wear for women, in which it would be impractical to swim laps, is designed to appeal to the male gaze.

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quote:

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For men who are conditioned by viewing porn, both soft and hard, these particular swim wear items become fetishized, so that the SI swimsuit issue is indeed porn like in its impact on the male consumer.

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Or, if you're a normal heterosexual male*, you just like looking at women.

quote:

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That's why it sells so well, it's peddling eroticized female bodies in approved swim wear that is suitable revealing for the staring male,

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Or, those bodies are already erotic.

quote:

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and entirely degrading for the female.

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Here's where you lost me. A bikini is somehow "degrading" now?

Why would an adult with a free will choose to degrade themself?

ed'd to add: forgot my footnote: * I'm not equating normal and heterosexual here.

I'd also guess that normal homosexual males like to look at a bit of skin too. Just different skin.

[ 27 June 2005: Message edited by: Mr. Magoo ]

kurichina:
“Lots of guys wear Speedos, MasterDebator. While they aren't as in fashion as they once were they're still quite popular, especially in Europe.”

That may be acceptable in Europe where nudity for both sexes is Okay on many public beaches, but in North America even partial nudity, such as bikinis and thongs, is clearly sexualized.

Raos:
“My choice to not speedos has nothing to do with considering them too revealing, and everything to do with every female I've known and heard say anything on the matter finding them abhorrent on men. Personally, I think they look fine, but I'm not about to wear clothing that's going to make me feel socially uncomfortable."

But why do those women find them abhorrent? It’s because they’re too skimpy and they look especially bad on a man in the eyes of a the typically socialized North American hetero female precisely because they are way too female-like. Don’t you get it? Your women don’t want you dressing like a girl! I have seen numerous newspaper articles on competitive swimming and triathlon meets where whole paragraphs are devoted to complaints about how “tiny” and “revealing” the traditional aquatic athlete’s swimsuit is. I guess we shouldn’t say “Speedo” as that is a brand, not a type, but you know what I mean.

arborman
“My reference for all things appropriate in women's wear (arborwoman) seems to think that bikinis are fine, if the person wearing them wants to wear them. Ditto speedos.”

Does arborwoman actually wear a bikini? How does that make you feel?

“I don't wear speedos because I look like a doofus in them. It has nothing to do with them being too revealing and everything to do with my love handles, which they somehow manage to call attention to in a most unflattering way.”

I am surprised, I thought with all your bike commuting you be lean and mean.

“I've never understood what I've heard described as 'buttfloss', either in the swimsuit or underwear variety. From a male POV, they are unattractive, though I'm told they can be comfortable for some women - which puts it in the none of my business what women choose to wear category again”

Really, this has to be a joke arborman, that thongs are comfortable for the female wearer? This is really too much, they are definitely not comfortable at all. Any fool can see that their obvious purpose is visual stimulation of the male.

“I don't like the idea of attributing all the clothing and swimwear choices made by women to porn and subjugation - it seems unlikely, and something of an offensive generalization.”

Hey, I don’t like the idea either. But Madison Avenue and the porn and pop culture industries love it, and they are very good at what they do. They can easily deceive people into thinking that enslavement is freedom. Orwell’s Big Brother had nothing on these master manipulators!

Zoot:
"That's a very Freudian point of view. I'd disagree with it -- I do not believe that gaze is either necessarily sexual or necessarily male."

I must be truthful, Zoot, I am really surprised that you would come back with such a dismissive rejoinder, since your posts are always so reasonable and well-thought out. Obviously we disagree, but I don’t think there is anything Freudian about what I am saying. On the contrary I am simply stating what is obvious from a feminist viewpoint, that the objectification of the female body and it’s eroticization is part of the commercialization of sex and that in turn is part of North American patriarchy.

Mr. Magoo

quote:
For men who are conditioned by viewing porn, both soft and hard, these particular swim wear items become fetishized, so that the SI swimsuit issue is indeed porn like in its impact on the male consumer.

"Or, if you're a normal heterosexual male*, you just like looking at women."

Very funny, Mr Magoo, very funny. When you’re at the beach in the summer, do you ever et caught staring? When a young attractive woman walks by you on the sidewalk, do you turn and stare at her backside? Do you ever apologize when the women complain, or only if they are guarded by a man large enough to flatten you?

quote:
That's why it sells so well, it's peddling eroticized female bodies in approved swim wear that is suitable revealing for the staring male,

"Or, those bodies are already erotic."

There’s a big difference between being a sexual being, and being a sexual object. If you don’t believe me, ask a woman who’s been stared at, subjected to whistling, pinched, etc.

quote:
and entirely degrading for the female.

"Here's where you lost me. A bikini is somehow "degrading" now?

Why would an adult with a free will choose to degrade themself?"

quote:

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Originally posted by MasterDebator:
I am surprised, I thought with all your bike commuting you be lean and mean.

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That's kind of a snotty thing to say.

quote:

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Originally posted by MasterDebator:
Really, this has to be a joke arborman, that thongs are comfortable for the female wearer? This is really too much, they are definitely not comfortable at all. Any fool can see that their obvious purpose is visual stimulation of the male.

---

MasterDebator, I wear thongs and g-strings all the time and I can tell you from personal experience that they are extremely comfortable, more so than any underwear I've ever worn. In fact, as I've gotten heavier in the last couple of years I have found they are by far the *most* comfortable underwear, and I encourage all women to try them, particular heavier women since they stay in place better.

"Gee, you shouldn't wear that, someone might look at you and think you are beautiful."

or worse...

"Gee, you shouldn't wear that, someone might look at you and think naughty thoughts."

quote:

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There's nothing wrong with bikinis for women? And yet no young man will be caught dead in a Speedo because they're too revealing. How does this work, Hailey?

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Nothing wrong with a bikini at all as long as the person wearing it is an adult - not adolescent- female. I assume grown adult women have dressing themselves within their skill set. I grew up with my wardrobe being scrutinzed and evaluated and, honestly, no more. It's not a matter of general concern.

quote:

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That's why it sells so well, it's peddling eroticized female bodies in approved swim wear that is suitable revealing for the staring male, and entirely degrading for the female.

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Actually it's not degrading.

Do you know what is degrading?

Institutions that make females kneel to see if their skirts touch the floor, young women being sent home from school because they aren't sufficiently covered in the so-called minds of teachers, women being made feel that their choice of dress is somehow morally influential in the lives of men within their vicinity, and women who have to hear from other women that because they like a certain style of clothing that they are somehow buying into something negative or degrading themselves.

Believing that women don't have the capacity to engage in self-directed decisions about their wardrobe is nothing less than sad. Incredibly sad.

quote:

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Here's where you lost me. A bikini is somehow "degrading" now?

Why would an adult with a free will choose to degrade themself?

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It's not degrading. I am an adult woman who is free to wear what I want.

quote:

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But why do those women find them abhorrent? It’s because they’re too skimpy and they look especially bad on a man in the eyes of a the typically socialized North American hetero female precisely because they are way too female-like. Don’t you get it? Your women don’t want you dressing like a girl!

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There is no way to say this nicely.

It has nothing to do with that and everything to do with the fact that most men who wear them don't seem to have the ability to self-assess whether or not that's the best swimsuit for showcasing their phyisque.

quote:

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On the contrary I am simply stating what is obvious from a feminist viewpoint, that the objectification of the female body and it’s eroticization is part of the commercialization of sex and that in turn is part of North American patriarchy.

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Are you saying a feminist can't wear a bikini?

quote:

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When you’re at the beach in the summer, do you ever et caught staring? When a young attractive woman walks by you on the sidewalk, do you turn and stare at her backside? Do you ever apologize when the women complain, or only if they are guarded by a man large enough to flatten you?

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I don't think that anyone wears a swimsuit to be stared at.

quote:

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There’s a big difference between being a sexual being, and being a sexual object. If you don’t believe me, ask a woman who’s been stared at, subjected to whistling, pinched, etc.

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That's a whole different world. Clearly whistling and pinching is just wrong.

quote:

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Bikinis are definitely degrading, as is porn and stripping and other sexual exploitations of women. The late Andrea Dworkin made these points very well, and was hated for it.

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I think it's the most liberating thing in the world so we come from very different worlds.

quote:

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I don't think that anyone wears a swimsuit to be stared at.

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So you put on this totally impractical outfit that shows as much of your breasts and buttocks as practical when you could just as well wear shorts and a t-shirt and I'm not supposed to look?

quote:

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Originally posted by Anchoress:
I think it's an example of Hailey's dry humour; manifestly, people put on swimsuits to facilitate swimming. Except of course for those of us who go swimming in shorts and a t-shirt.

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Not that I would have any experience but I would expect your average bikini is totally impractical for swimming which is probably why competitive swimmers don't wear them.

quote:

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So you put on this totally impractical outfit that shows as much of your breasts and buttocks as practical when you could just as well wear shorts and a t-shirt and I'm not supposed to look?

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I ordered my bathing suit online and received it in the mail. I have to wear a tankini just because of some unflattering markings on my abdomen but I would wear a bikini in a heartbeat.

quote:

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Originally posted by Hailey:
No, truly I don't think someone wears a swimsuit to be stared at anymore than someone wears a pretty dress to be stared at or a funky pair of jeans or anything. Wanting to look nice and wanting to be stared at are two different things.

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That's kind of what I was saying.

quote:

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Originally posted by BleedingHeart:
Not that I would have any experience but I would expect your average bikini is totally impractical for swimming which is probably why competitive swimmers don't wear them.

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Just because top-flight athletes dress a certain way doesn't mean variations on their styles are 'totally impractical'. I don't dress like an Olympic marathoner when I run, but that doesn't mean my attire is 'totally impractical'. I venture to suggest that thousands, if not millions, of women swim successfully and comfortably in bikinis every day.

[ 28 June 2005: Message edited by: Anchoress ]

quote:

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Originally posted by BleedingHeart:
So you put on this totally impractical outfit that shows as much of your breasts and buttocks as practical when you could just as well wear shorts and a t-shirt and I'm not supposed to look?

Just checking.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Anchoress:
MasterDebator, I wear thongs and g-strings all the time and I can tell you from personal experience that they are extremely comfortable, more so than any underwear I've ever worn. In fact, as I've gotten heavier in the last couple of years I have found they are by far the *most* comfortable underwear, and I encourage all women to try them, particular heavier women since they stay in place better.

They also look dead sexy, which is another reason why I wear them.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Hailey:
NWanting to look nice and wanting to be stared at are two different things.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by MasterDebator:
I am getting a picture here, it's a bit blurry, but yes, it's "Pat" from the Showcase series KINK when it was filmed in Vancouver several years ago. I always remembered that series because I thought Ujjal's appearance in it was one of the few integrity based moves I seen from him.

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Sorry, do you mean it's 'Pat', or 'It's Pat!'?

[ 28 June 2005: Message edited by: Anchoress ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Anchoress:

Sorry, do you mean it's 'Pat', or 'It's Pat!'?

[ 28 June 2005: Message edited by: Anchoress ]

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quote:

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Originally posted by puzzlic:
... If bikini-girl isn't your date, well, you can look if you want, but if you want to avoid giving offence? Don't get caught.

I just bought my first bikini for one reason and one reason only: bikinis are what's in style for American beach culture. I woulda felt more comfortable in a woolen granny-suit, but what can ya do: I wanted to fit in

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"American beach culture"? Is that part of patriarchy? Is that why this culture dictates that bikinis and thongs are the in thing for the with it women and girls to be wearing?

quote:

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Originally posted by Michelle:
You know, Master Debator, your puritanism is really galling. It's just as anti-feminist to criticize women for wearing too little as it is to pressure them to wear too little.

---

That's because I get a chance to go swimming about once a year; the price of swimsuits seems ridiculous to me if I'm only wearing one once or twice a year; and it has been a long time since anyone has produced a suit I liked. (That last point is just a peculiarity of mine: my fashion sense is stuck back about 1963, and it has just generally been a long time since I've seen any new clothing I liked.)

I can barely swim, though. I love the water, but I am incompetent in it. A good swimmer would probably be annoyed by the drag my shorts produce.

I am told that I look pretty good wet, though. Apparently my outfit, soaked, has a certain fetching flapper quality to it.

quote:

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Possibly. But Hailey, please be honest here, a skimpy bikini, especially a bare-buttocked thong, is not looking "nice" it's looking sexy, naughty, seductive, anything but "nice". So substitute "sexy" for "nice" in your sentence and see if it still makes the slightest bit of sense.

---

Certainly one of the MOST common places I wear a bathing suit is my girlfriend's. There is not a man in sight and we are all heterosexual so nobody's going for "sexy".

You do know that sexy isn't a bad thing though?

I don't think women wear bikini's to be "naughty" or "seductive".

quote:

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I notice that in your first paragraph you're pretty frank about the oggling, the staring, the objectifying that is part of your beach culture. And there's the ownership angle too, ... unless she's officially your's to look at, don't get caught boys!

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I realize that post was directed elsewhere but I'd like to comment.

I don't think that because someone has poor manners and oggles that a woman is obligated to sit on a beach in a bathing suit that is different than she would like. Why should someone be controlled by that? How is it the wearer's responsibility that someone is rude?

And the ownership comment I don't buy that either. Women make a decision about who their partner is and I would imagine most women would want their chosen sexual partner to see them as a sexy and beautiful. Someone who loves you, respects you, and you have a relationshp with looking at you when you are wearing something that is pretty is a bit different from an ill-mannered man on the beach.

quote:

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Well, if I am being told by a Moderator to stop, I guess I had better stop.

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Michelle already clarified that she wasn't speaking as a moderator. Speaking only on my behalf though I welcome your explanations of what you think because I can't possibly understand it otherwise.

We've had two very different life paths that have led us to our opinions which are very different as well. I had a blast growing up and have very few areas that I would express disillusionment about my childhood. I do, however, feel that far far too much focus was put on what I wore. The greatest pressure came from my sisters. (No midriff, no tank tops, upper arms covered, no shorts, no skirts that weren't cocktail length, no painted toenails, no bare feet, hair length not allowed to be mid-back, etc) The emphasis on being covered and being responsible for anyone else's mistakes or behaviour if I wasn't was a regular thematic issue. I am sure my eldest sister thinks that my skirt was personally responsible for 911.

I am very close to my family but it remains an area of malcontent. I think they will forever feel failures that I nurse in public, that I have tattoos,that I dance,and that I wear what I like. I am fairly autonomous that way!

One of the most attractive things to me about my husband is he was and is very much "wear whatever you want". It is not a day to day focus in his life what I am wearing in front of people nor did he try to make women feel responsible for anyone else's journey with God.

So, for me, a huge part of it is having grown very weary of being told for many many years what to wear and how women were responsible for men falling if they wore items that were "too revealing". It's also about having an eating disorder and going through more acute periods where I would layer myself in clothing...because I didn't want anyone to know I was struggling with it...because every time I looked in the mirror I would evaluate myself for where "fat" might be...and, for me, it was a huge personal victory when I was able to wear items without layering, covering, hiding, etc.

quote:

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I don't think women wear bikini's to be "naughty" or "seductive".

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Hailey may be right. And I would add that even if we did do so, so what? I like being naughty and seductive sometimes.

[ 28 June 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]

quote:

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we are all heterosexual so nobody's going for "sexy".

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quote:

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I must be truthful, Zoot, I am really surprised that you would come back with such a dismissive rejoinder, since your posts are always so reasonable and well-thought out. Obviously we disagree, but I don’t think there is anything Freudian about what I am saying. On the contrary I am simply stating what is obvious from a feminist viewpoint, that the objectification of the female body and it’s eroticization is part of the commercialization of sex and that in turn is part of North American patriarchy.

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Didn't mean to be dismissive, just didn't have a lot of time.

The concepts of objectification and the male gaze are rooted in Freudian theory, which feminists used back in the '60s to create much of feminist media theory. Look up Laura Mulvey's work if you don't believe me. I never entirely bought it, and there are some glaring flaws in the theory of "male gaze" because not only is it strictly male and women also have eyes, it's because it is also white, for the most part.

Anyway, back to the SI Swimsuit Issue: If the photographer, or one of the photographers is female, can the gaze still be male? If the model is in a bikini, but not posed in an erotic way, is that objectification? I would argue that it isn't.

In a sense, suggesting that all bikinis are bad because it makes men think of women sexually isn't an especially feminist pov -- it puts the onus on the woman to cover up, making her responsible for the thoughts of any male who might gaze upon her. I have a philosophical problem with that.

quote:

---

The concepts of objectification and the male gaze are rooted in Freudian theory, which feminists used back in the '60s to create much of feminist media theory. Look up Laura Mulvey's work if you don't believe me. I never entirely bought it, and there are some glaring flaws in the theory of "male gaze" because not only is it strictly male and women also have eyes, it's because it is also white, for the most part.

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Um. I have to dissent here.

Discussions of objectification in a much broader sense arise from European existentialist philosophy of the post-war years, and while most of the existentialists would no doubt consider Freud to be a major figure in their own intellectual tradition, their arguments about objectification were always political, and were already focused on anti-colonial politics (especially in Africa), eg, by the time Simone de Beauvoir applied them to her rebellious feminism.

However, in media theory, there was a very strong emphasis on Freud's thoughts as more or less a basis of objectification within the medium of motion picture.

edited to add: Much current media theory continues to be based on Freudian psychology, and from the work of other Freudian theorists/philosophers that have used Freud as a basis. Within the larger world, I wouldn't comment as I don't have a strong a basis of knowledge. Personally, I don't like that anybody bothers with Freud at all. He hated women and I don't think he ever understood them.

[ 28 June 2005: Message edited by: Zoot ]

But of course it helped me, as a young woman in the sixties, to cope with my shock when I discovered that most people, not just men, didn't quite believe that I was a full human being, and certainly did not believe that I was equal to my brothers.

Anyone who doubts that that is what we faced just wasn't there. That is all there is to it.

quote:

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But of course it helped me, as a young woman in the sixties, to cope with my shock when I discovered that most people, not just men, didn't quite believe that I was a full human being, and certainly did not believe that I was equal to my brothers.

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What the heck? You have met people who don't think that you are a full human being?

I have never, not once, felt that.

quote:

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Originally posted by Hailey:

I've never thought someone thought I was sub-human.

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I mean: it was. I'm not making that up. Whether any of the people -- and it was not just men -- who thought that way would have 'fessed up to the full implications of their treatment of women, the effect, the experience, was of something just like that.

I recognize that many younger men, especially the ones we meet around babble, are deeply deeply different from the men I grew up with, first went to work for, first had entanglements with. And that is great.

We're writing at the end of a very long thread here, and this is a new turn in the logic of it all. Maybe at some point I should start a new thread wherein I try to put into words both the shock and, I have to say, the disappointment I felt when I first realized how most of the rest of the world thought of me when I was young, just because I was a girl.

When I was in high school the girls' basketball team was "allowed" to get on the bus to go to an adjacent town for inter-school games ONLY if there was room after the boys team, the cheerleaders, girlfriends, siblings and buddies of the boys team members were all on, and seated. The boys games were well attended. IF we got to go we played in a smaller gym to no audience. We didn't count, you see.

More than once I was told I had "a good mind, for a girl.". I overheard a teacher say to another teacher it was a shame I was a girl, if I was a boy, with a mind like mine, I could really do something...

I was taught "wives, be thou in subjection to your husband..."... When I got married my husband had a bilingual fit at the thought I expected to continue to work...he actually said "no wife of mine"...

Young men today barely seem to be of the same species as young men back then. They even seem to be taller, better looking, and more fun. And they smell a lot better, too, because it was "sissy" to use deodorant, or after shave and no man would have considered using cologne.

Skdadl is correct. And I think it must be very difficult for younger people to accept that their nice older parents, uncles, etc., were such conditioned drones.

We got paid less for the same work... which I believe is very often still true... we were not promoted readily...which I believe is often still true... more often than not at work we were burdened with some absolutely unskilled young entry-level male whom we trained and then saw promoted while we stayed at the same job and were given another entry-level male to train...which I think is still often true...

quote:

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Originally posted by skdadl:
For me, if no one else had ever come up with "objectification" as a theoretical term, I would have invented it myself, just watching what goes on in our medical and long-term care systems. It's there; it's in your face and my face, and God knows, it is in the faces of the most vulnerable.

But of course it helped me, as a young woman in the sixties, to cope with my shock when I discovered that most people, not just men, didn't quite believe that I was a full human being, and certainly did not believe that I was equal to my brothers.

Anyone who doubts that that is what we faced just wasn't there. That is all there is to it.

And any human being who discovers that she has been relegated automatically, by virtue of biology or genetics, to an inferior status, is going to want to think about "objectification."

---

Okay. I think we're actually giving different meanings (perhaps connotations?) to the term "objectification".

I'm not denying your experience or the experience of anyone else, but I wouldn't exactly call that objectification. Or perhaps I would, but it would make me squirm a bit because I don't think it quite fits as a term. But I'm like that with a lot of terms.

I'm still just talking about visual media here. I don't know that it's possible to create images without objectification in some form. And in some ways, I don't necessarily think that all objectification is a bad thing. Some of it certainly is.

There are women who create media images objectifying other women's bodies. Audra has introduced us to Heather Corinna's work, for example, and I think that while her work is positive, it still objectifies. She's certainly female, and most certainly feminist. That kind of throws a wrench into objectification being entirely based on the male gaze.

I'm not sure what that point had to do with somehow denigrating your experience and that of your cohort. I'm not denying that objectification exists, either. I'm just saying that as a marker of oppression, it's problematic.

quote:

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Whenever I hear someone make some dumb comment about how "the women's movement" has failed this or that test I am almost overwhelmed by two very different emotions.

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Who said the women's movement has failed?

I think it is true -- well: I have had my nose pushed in this truth lately, several times -- that younger people, men and women both, feel that they can have more fun with objectification or with images than do those of us who first realized that our lives were being narrowed and crabbed by the stereotypes.

And that's right. I believe it's right. God forbid you should relive my life (great though it has been in many ways ).

[ 28 June 2005: Message edited by: Zoot ]

quote:

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Originally posted by MasterDebator:

My quote - arborman
“My reference for all things appropriate in women's wear (arborwoman) seems to think that bikinis are fine, if the person wearing them wants to wear them. Ditto speedos.”

MD -Does arborwoman actually wear a bikini? How does that make you feel?

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She does sometimes. How it makes me feel is irrelevant. The key question is how it makes her feel, which as far as I can tell is good. And don't you dare insult her by suggesting she is some form of subjugated woman - I suspect she'd get quite angry at the offensive idea. Has it occurred to you that there are women who wear bikinis because they are the minimum amount of clothing that is socially acceptable on most beaches, and they would be nude of they could?

quote:

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Me- “I don't wear speedos because I look like a doofus in them. It has nothing to do with them being too revealing and everything to do with my love handles, which they somehow manage to call attention to in a most unflattering way.”

MD- I am surprised, I thought with all your bike commuting you be lean and mean.

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What does that have to do with anything?

quote:

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Me -“I've never understood what I've heard described as 'buttfloss', either in the swimsuit or underwear variety. From a male POV, they are unattractive, though I'm told they can be comfortable for some women - which puts it in the none of my business what women choose to wear category again”

MD - Really, this has to be a joke arborman, that thongs are comfortable for the female wearer? This is really too much, they are definitely not comfortable at all. Any fool can see that their obvious purpose is visual stimulation of the male.

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This may come as a shock to you, but some women are apparently different than others. I have been told by some that they find thongs comfortable. I personally don't understand how it could be possible, but what business is it of mine? Are you saying they are liars? Maybe people aren't as simplistic as you like to imply.

quote:

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me -“I don't like the idea of attributing all the clothing and swimwear choices made by women to porn and subjugation - it seems unlikely, and something of an offensive generalization.”

MD- Hey, I don’t like the idea either. But Madison Avenue and the porn and pop culture industries love it, and they are very good at what they do. They can easily deceive people into thinking that enslavement is freedom. Orwell’s Big Brother had nothing on these master manipulators!

---

As I say: heaven forfend anyone should relive my life. I want others to move on. I hope for better for you. You will have your own challenges.

But I hold my own ground. And I understand what MD means about "the male gaze." That is what first made me suspect that so many of the men I had thought I admired were, in fact, stupid. And so many of them rilly rilly were.

I'm not making that up. There was nothing wrong with us. They were just ... ignorant.

[ 28 June 2005: Message edited by: skdadl ]

quote:

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But I hold my own ground. And I understand what MD means about "the male gaze." That is what first made me suspect that so many of the men I had thought I admired were, in fact, stupid. And so many of them rilly rilly were.

I'm not making that up. There was nothing wrong with us. They were just ... ignorant.

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I'm not disagreeing with anything you've said, skdadl. I'm just trying to clarify that I'm limiting my discussion of male gaze to media image. It's somewhat different than what you describe as male gaze when dealing personally with a real live man. I'm talking about something more abstract.

quote:

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Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
MasterDebator, our local Victorian Society is looking for someone to go around and put skirts on piano limbs, lest they inflame the male passions. Interested? No pay, but you'd get to wear a really tight corset and say "Tsk tsk" under your breath a lot.

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This is just sooo original. I have never heard the piano leg metaphor before.

quote:

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Originally posted by Zoot:
The concepts of objectification and the male gaze are rooted in Freudian theory, which feminists used back in the '60s to create much of feminist media theory. Look up Laura Mulvey's work if you don't believe me.

...

I wear a bikini sometimes -- or rather, I used to, and have now gone to a tankini after having the second wild gril. I certainly hope I still look sexy (which is not in opposition to nice AT ALL!), and I don't care who looks, as long as they don't bother me with uncalled for comments or suggestions or invade my personal space. The blond guy, of course, has been granted exception.

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Thanks for the information on Mulvey, I did a quick search and found it interesting.

quote:

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Originally posted by Zoot:
I don't think it's so much in the interest of fun as it is of subverting the effects of objectification that you experienced, skdadl. Generally, that's been the idea with me, and with other experimentalists that I've talked to, good feminists all.

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quote:

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Originally posted by arborman:
She does sometimes. How it makes me feel is irrelevant. ... Has it occurred to you that there are women who wear bikinis because they are the minimum amount of clothing that is socially acceptable on most beaches, and they would be nude of they could?

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But what do you think arborman, what do you feel? Does it provoke any emotional response on your part at all? It sounds almost like you're afraid to express any opinion at all on this.

Maybe they are trying to be as close to nude as possible, but then why not go to Vancouver's Wreck Beach? Obviously, nudity isn't the object, it's display.

quote:

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Originally posted by arborman:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Me- “I don't wear speedos because I look like a doofus in them. It has nothing to do with them being too revealing and everything to do with my love handles, which they somehow manage to call attention to in a most unflattering way.”
MD- I am surprised, I thought with all your bike commuting you be lean and mean.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What does that have to do with anything?

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Just that I thought that with all the bicycle commuting you've been doing you'd be lean and free of love handles, and therefore in perfect shape for wearing a Speedo.

quote:

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Originally posted by arborman:
...I have been told by some that they find thongs comfortable. I personally don't understand how it could be possible, but what business is it of mine? Are you saying they are liars? ...

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It's not possible, and yes, they are lying about it when they say it's comfortable. Just as they're lying when they say they find skin tight jeans or ridiculous high heels comfortable.

quote:

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Originally posted by arborman:
So you are saying that women are just mindless drones? Helpless slaves to porn? I suspect many women on this board would disagree with you. I sure do.

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Many people, including many women, are indeed brainwashed by the advertising industry and it's ally popular culture. Why do you think women would be immune from this pressure?

quote:

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Originally posted by MasterDebator:
It's not possible, and yes, they are lying about it when they say it's comfortable. Just as they're lying when they say they find skin tight jeans or ridiculous high heels comfortable.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Anchoress:

I'm not a liar MB. I find thongs comfortable, and come to think of it I also find ridiculously high heels comfortable. Don't know about tight jeans, I never wear them.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Anchoress:
From now on you will take me at my word, because I don't lie and I don't quibble....

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quote:

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Originally posted by arborman:
Has it occurred to you that there are women who wear bikinis because they are the minimum amount of clothing that is socially acceptable on most beaches, and they would be nude of they could?

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You know, the "gaze" factor really is tempered by culture at times. What I mean by that is that in some more torrid climes -- as where I exist -- bare skin is not as big a deal as it is in climates where the locals are more covered. I've noticed this when I return home after living in a cooler part of the world; when I first arrive the sea of bare brown skin is a bit of a shock! After a while, though, it totally loses its currency. When I lived further North (closer to the equator, that is) I regularly did my grocery shopping dressed in nothing more than a sarong, and I wasn't alone in doing that.

As for high heels and thongs being an acquired taste... so what? Coming from a working class British background, food such as Laksa and chili are acquired tastes for me, and I enjoy them far more than the meat and three I was raised on. Does that mean it's falsified? A taste is a taste, surely.

We're all influenced by the cultures in which we live, to one extent or another.

edited for clarity

[ 29 June 2005: Message edited by: Suzette ]

-If gays want to marry Let them, it's none of your #@^#&*@ business

-If people want to shove pins through their cheeks, it's none of your #*@(#*# business

- If people want to get plastic surgery, yes, guess it, It's none of your #&#*@(# business.

Why drive a a porshe when you can drive a chevette? BECAUSE YOU CAN.

quote:

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As for wearing a bikini and not caring what anyone thinks, how far does that go? What about the questions that are raised about Halloween costumes. Is it really harmless for Prince William (I think) to go to a costume party dressed in Nazi regalia?

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MasterDebator just validated Godwin's Law while talking about bikinis! That's right, folks. Bikini ownership and Nazism have just officially been mentioned in the same sentence.

When I discussed the bikini topic with arborwoman, her response summed up much of what has been said here, but in a much more succinct way. 'Horseshit - women's sexuality is our own, and for some of us it is a source of power.'

quote:

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It would appear that any women who wear less than a burkha are mindless slaves to the port culture, in the eyes of MD. No woman would wear anything attractive unless it was a result of some form of gender subjugation, apparently.

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Edit:
And the author of this thread = Granola Girl
that's rich

[ 29 June 2005: Message edited by: Lukewarm ]

quote:

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If I have the money I'll do whatever I please without taking your opinion into account.

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I must say, that is a line that would give at least some of us here pause. Not that anyone would try to prevent you, but at least some of us would be hard put to admire that attitude. We might even scorn it.

In fact, I'd say doing otherwise is something of an oxymoron.

quote:

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Wanting to look nice and wanting to be stared at are two different things.

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quote:

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Originally posted by skdadl:
BleedingHeart! You're a doctor! Doctors aren't supposed to have thoughts like that.

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Since when?

quote:

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If I have the money I'll do whatever I please without taking your opinion into account.

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Sorry, EDIT : I'll do whatever I want with my Own body!

quote:

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And in any event, it was the "If I have the money" part that brought me up short.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Anchoress:
Yes.

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Sounds like we're back to KINK.

You know Anchoress, I have done a fair bit of counselling in my time of people with alcohol and drug problems. I am used to having to call these people on their BS and denials, and just as familiar with their indignant reactions, some of which can be pretty vehement. The word "denial" was coined for use in those circumstances becuase the ordinary words "dishonesty" or "lying" are in fact not entirely appropriate in this psychologically complex context.

quote:

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Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
MasterDebator just validated Godwin's Law while talking about bikinis!

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I looked up Godwin's Law and I think you may be onto something of much greater applicability than just my one posting. On babble, "nazi" is hardly the only term whose probability of use approaches unity as the thread increases in length.

quote:

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Originally posted by arborman:
When I discussed the bikini topic with arborwoman, her response summed up much of what has been said here, but in a much more succinct way. 'Horseshit - women's sexuality is our own, and for some of us it is a source of power.'

Nuff said. I'm out of here.

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Once again, I was wondering what you think. I didn't ask about what your wife thinks.

It's a bit strange, you know, you speaking for her and all, because that way, she doesn't speak for herself, and you don't speak for yourself either!

quote:

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Originally posted by MasterDebator:
Sounds like we're back to KINK.

You know Anchoress, I have done a fair bit of counselling in my time of people with alcohol and drug problems. I am used to having to call these people on their BS and denials, and just as familiar with their indignant reactions, some of which can be pretty vehement. The word "denial" was coined for use in those circumstances becuase the ordinary words "dishonesty" or "lying" are in fact not entirely appropriate in this psychologically complex context.

In a world where an extraordinarily powerful Madison Ave-driven pop culture, that is based in large part in an existing patriarchy, has enormous influence on people everywhere, would it really be surprising to find that hundreds of millions of otherwise intelligent women might be in denial about their consumer habits, in the fields of fashion, cosmetics, and grooming for example? Could the same thing be happening to hundreds of millions of men in the market for automobiles, the men being conditioned to demand a V8 coupe, not the 4-cylinder sedan that would in fact fit both their real needs and their budgets a lot better?

---

quote:

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In a world where an extraordinarily powerful Madison Ave-driven pop culture, that is based in large part in an existing patriarchy, has enormous influence on people everywhere, would it really be surprising to find that hundreds of millions of otherwise intelligent women might be in denial about their consumer habits, in the fields of fashion, cosmetics, and grooming for example?

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That's quite a leap, from people with profound substance abuse issues, to pretty much everyone.

On the other hand, your thesis seems to require that we all be "out of our heads" in some way to explain why we'd all be degrading ourselves pretty much daily, so I can see why this is the only path your argument can follow at this point. "We're all brainwashed" because if we aren't then we're all rationally making decisions that you don't like.

quote:

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Originally posted by MasterDebator:

Once again, I was wondering what you think. I didn't ask about what your wife thinks.

It's a bit strange, you know, you speaking for her and all, because that way, she doesn't speak for herself, and you don't speak for yourself either!

Does arborwoman post on your behalf in other forums?

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But we are talking about the choices made by women - what I think must be secondary, wouldn't you say?

I'm not 'speaking for her', I am relaying what she said to me in conversation. Nor am I posting on her behalf - and you are being disingenuous to imply any such thing. I am telling you what she said in a conversation yesterday morning. She is one of the strongest feminists I know, and her opinions have significant weight with me.

I'm not sure why I debate you - rather than address the points I make, you find ways to discredit me, make insinuations about my personal life, or attack me directly. Rather than engage with people who present their points of view, you discount the POV of everyone who disagrees with you by implying that we are either brainwashed or a part of the problem.

To my knowledge, arborwoman doesn't participate in online forums - she isn't interested. I'll ask her if she wants to join this discussion, but I'm reasonably sure you'd infuriate her within about 2 posts by implying that she is somehow subservient to me because she disagrees with you.

Let's try talking about the topic at hand, one more time.
Here's my position:

Women are independent adults, and have the right to wear whatever pleases them, regardless of your views. At the same time, there are a great many (far too many) examples of power imbalances in gender relations, which we all need to work to identify and address.

In my opinion, telling women who choose to dress a certain way that they are only doing so out of slavery to advertising or some other form of subservience is one of the most disempowering positions I've ever heard.

Am I mistaken, or isn't some of the point of feminism to to ensure that women have the freedom to ignore what men think in making clothing choices, or any other choices for that matter.

As far as I can tell, your position is as follows:

'Women who dress in certain forms of clothing - particularly the bikini and the thong - are only doing so because of the power of the male dominated culture. Women who claim to do so for other reasons - such as comfort, preference, or because they feel sexy - are in denial.

If I have outlined your position incorrectly, tell me how. If there is a problem in my position, let's all discuss it. I think I understand your point of view, though I disagree with it very strongly. I'm not sure you understand mine, or are willing to give it any credence.