|
Author
|
Topic: Women Only: What's the feminism forum for?
|
|
|
|
|
bigcitygal
Volunteer Moderator
Babbler # 8938
|
posted 11 August 2006 08:45 PM
Absolutely, Stargazer, I'm with you on that.I think feminist ideas are still challenging and yes, threatening to many men, even some progressive men unfortunately. This can become a contentious space because we want to feel more open here and it doesn't always work. I feel very badly for women who don't post here anymore because of that, and I was hoping that us kick-ass gals that are here can reclaim the space. As you know, I don't talk of "equality" feminism, but of "equity" and "anti-racist" feminism. And when even the notion of equality is treated as if it's already been accomplished (note to anyone else besides Stargazer reading this: IT HASN'T  ) it's hard to keep our voices going, here, when we can often be drowned out or sidetracked by detractors. I guess what I want to say is, women, speak up here! Your voices are valuable and important! (BCG climbs down off her soapbox) 
From: It's difficult to work in a group when you're omnipotent - Q | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
Pride for Red Dolores
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12072
|
posted 12 August 2006 11:52 AM
This forum should be open to evereyone- even to those who don't consier themselves feminists or who know very little about feminism.Feminsim isn't only about women, it's about evereyone. One ce wde change women's status and roles, we change men too. What the heck is the point preaching to the converted ? If we want to change this world or at least get people thinking in at least a bit of a different way, we have to explain our ideas to them. All this applies especially to those who come into this forum and talk in an offensive manner ( although I acknowledge there has to be certain limits). We have to talk to these people, not ignore them- because again how else are we going to change the world ? One person at a time might be slow, and we all know that change doesn't happen overnight. Dialogue is very important- because even if the dialogue comes to nothing, its better than trying nothing. If people come in here with the overt purpose to attack, call others names and not crticise other's ideas is a respectful manner despite our best efforts to disuade them before kicking them out-well that's that. To my mind these later are the type that come in here to try to disempower us with their words. Well, forgive me but while I know that words are loaded with meaning : sticks and stones can break my bones but words will never hurt me. We can't let malicious peole put us down.
Everey time I post I anticipate that someone si going to criticse me- sometimes justifiably, sometimes not and sometimes more than rudely.For me, evereything is a risky. So I guess maybe what I'm saying is that there must be a balnce between safety, free expression, and dialogue. And that for me, maybe dialogue is more important than a safe enviornemnt.[ 12 August 2006: Message edited by: Pride for Red Dolores ]
From: Montreal | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
nonsuch
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1402
|
posted 12 August 2006 11:10 PM
quote:
What I would ideally love is a forum in which we can discuss feminism without fear, and free from attack. How do we get that? I'm not sure...
A room of one's own?
We can't get that - without fighting for it. Again and again and again... until we've won so many times that there is nobody left to fight. Isn't that the whole point of feminism? Men (except whoever is offended by this generalization) totally hate a 'Keep Out' sign. It drives them bughouse. This is not a bad thing, when you consider science, tyranny, plumbing and fires. We bloody well need men to ignore 'No Trespassing' signs in some situations. What we don't need is men barging in where nobody's in danger and nothing has to be fixed. How to explain the difference? Try this: How do you feel when another guy tells you which wrench to use? How do you feel when another guy deploys his stuff in your garage? How do you feel when another guy moves your sofa to make room for his armchair? How do you feel when another guy tells you that you're all wet and everything you believe is bunk?
Guess what! Wonem don't like it either! We feel the same resentment, frustration, irritation, annoyance, anger... rage (homicidal rage!) that you feel when your space is invaded.
SO JUST DON'T DO IT! We may need to say that a few more times before it sinks in.
From: coming and going | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
bigcitygal
Volunteer Moderator
Babbler # 8938
|
posted 14 August 2006 04:22 AM
Thanks to all who've responded so far. Stargazer and v michel have captured what it is I'm looking for here. I certainly don't mind a feminist primer thread once in a while, but I don't want to spend the majority of threads fighting. It's a drain on my energy, and I think of this forum as a place to vent with other feminists, women and men, who are supportive, who likely will have a cool different take, but still from a feminist place. No, not an echo chamber, but certainly there's places between echo chamber and battleground, yes? I hope? Men who are feminists will understand why men may be asked to take a step back once in a while, like a thread here and there being "women only". Men (and women) who aren't particularly feminist won't understand why that's important, and sometimes someone will have time and patience to try to walk them through the reasons why, and sometimes there won't be that person.
From: It's difficult to work in a group when you're omnipotent - Q | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
jas
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9529
|
posted 14 August 2006 08:02 AM
quote:
Originally posted by nonsuch:
Men (except whoever is offended by this generalization) totally hate a 'Keep Out' sign. It drives them bughouse. This is not a bad thing, when you consider science, tyranny, plumbing and fires. We bloody well need men to ignore 'No Trespassing' signs in some situations. What we don't need is men barging in where nobody's in danger and nothing has to be fixed. How to explain the difference?
Oh. so men who need to 'rescue' you can barge in when and where ever they want? Ick. Sorry, my gender is undeclared here, so it's not fair for me to post in this thread, but, while I'm here, a suggestion: what about a FF 'first principles' FAQ link, written by the contributors to the FF, that the under-enlightened can be referred to, without wasting breath?
From: the world we want | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Martha (but not Stewart)
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12335
|
posted 14 August 2006 01:53 PM
My own belief is that the most interesting forums are those that are open to all respectful participants. Disrespectful posts can be deleted, and disrespectful participants can be banned. But I find discussions most interesting when dissent and a diversity of opinion are permitted. Disrespect, rudeness, sarcasm and condescension are, usually, quite dull.On a related note, I am a little puzzled by remarks about a "safe place" or "safe environment" or about "fear". I, for one, have never felt that my safety has been compromised by anything that has ever been posted anywhere in babble -- neither in this forum nor any other. Moreover, if anyone ever posts anything that compromises the safety of other babblers, I presume that the moderator could remove the post and ban the poster. (Of course, nothing can be done about a determined troller, who comes in under different names, and so on.)
From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Martha (but not Stewart)
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12335
|
posted 14 August 2006 02:36 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Stargazer:
Hi Martha, I am against deleting posts at all. I think all posts should stand as they were.
The delete option just struck me as a way to deal with extreme posts, but I do not have a fixed opinion about this. I am curious: do the moderators follow any policy about post deletion? quote:
Originally posted by Stargazer:
Also, I don't want to have abortion debates, or debates about why feminism is bad, or why men nazis(yes it happens that people use that word for feminists - still).
My experience is that such debates are often unproductive and uninteresting. On the other hand, I would rather risk some unpleasantness in the name of openness to dissent, than squash dissent. quote:
Originally posted by Stargazer:
The worst feelings come from posting personal experience and having someone tell you your experiences are invalid.
I do not doubt that this is a terrible feeling. The moderators could establish a rule, in this or any other forum, against invalidating other posters' personal experiences. Here's another proposal: there could be two feminism forums. One could be woman-only, with fairly strict rules regarding content, designated as a safe place. The other could be more of a rough-and-tumble free-for-all about feminist issues.
From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Summer
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12491
|
posted 14 August 2006 05:01 PM
I'm an infrequent poster as well, and certainly have less invested in this board and the forum than many other posters. That said, it was originally this forum that drew me to Babble and it's the reason that I came out of lurkerdum(sp?) and started posting. I've noticed that the FF has had a severe drop in posts recently. Few new threads are started and some threads get very few responses. If you don't want to read my theories on why, skip the next paragraph!
This may be partly due to it being summer so less people are online. It may be partly due to some posters who have found other boards and don't post here as much if at all. But I also think that it's partly due to the fact that many threads have been derailed or drifted due to questions, comments or theories from posters (usually men I believe, but perhaps women too), who believe they know what feminism or equality is or challenge a FF poster with anti-feminist views. Of course, the mature thing to do would be for the rest of us to ignore the post and simply carry on our conversation, but this is hard to do. People feel compelled to answer and so it goes.
So, I am all for the original poster creating women's only topics. I know that this can be perceived as unfair because men can be feminist too (at least I think so, some women don't share that view), and some women certainly are not feminist (i think we can all agree on that ! )...but I think that overall it could have a positive impact on this forum and that would be good to me. Also, there is nothing stopping men from creating the same post without the designation. To those who have said that this thread should be for helping people learn about feminism, I believe you can do much learning simply by reading the posts. If a particular post in a women's only thread creates questions and no answers, you can start you own thread or pm someone.
In other threads, people have mentioned the idea of a Feminist101 thread or sticky that could answer many new people's common questions. I think something like that could do a lot to set the tone of this thread.
In terms of what I want from this forum, I echo V Michel's post above: quote:
Originally posted by v michel:
I'm not looking for a "yay, feminism is awesome!" forum. I'm more looking for "let's talk about this issue from a feminist perspective. While we recognize that there are multiple other perspectives from which we could look at it, that isn't what we'll be doing in this particular space."
From: Ottawa | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
nonsuch
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1402
|
posted 14 August 2006 08:32 PM
quote:
So, I am all for the original poster creating women's only topics. I know that this can be perceived as unfair
Yes, it is invariably perceived as unfair.Some people can't stand being excluded - from anything. Tell some men that they're not invited to a baby shower, and they'll give up hockey tickets to crash a baby shower. Tell some women that they're not welcome in a cigar club and they'll instantly take up cigar-smoking.
And some - many - other people feel guilty or regressive or whatever at the very thought of discriminating against anyone in any circumstances for any reason. The key word in there was 'reason'.
Sometimes there is a universally understood reason, and sometimes the reason is entirely personal. It shouldn't matter! The original poster's reason should be respected, period. At a party, do you feel it necessary to contribute to every single conversation? Do you feel it necessary to share every snippet of gossip, every expression of sympathy, every question, confidence and piece of advice with the entire room? No; there will usually be a dozen seperate conversations going on, among people who choose one another, for whatever reason. And it doesn't bother anyone that this happens.
Why should it bother anyone if it happened here? Yes, it's a public board. And there are plenty of public topics. I don't see why someone shouldn't be able to start a thread, now and then, to which they invite a select group to participate. I don't see why you can't designate a thread 'alcoholics only' or 'stamp-collectors only' or 'left-handed people only' or 'lapsed Catholics only'. I bet none of those would cause the ruckus that 'women only' causes - every damn time!
I bet there is a reason for that.
From: coming and going | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
morningstar
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12378
|
posted 18 August 2006 10:00 AM
i would be very happy with preposted 'women only' threads being posted, and i wouldn't object to disallowing men from posting partway through a thread if the original poster felt that it would enhance discussion among the women participating.it is still very interesting to me to hear how men are thinking and feeling about life through a feminist lense-- i think that it is important to hear their voices and answer their claims/fears/misconceptions. i really think that education is a key , if sometimes 'unfun' component of these discussions but the haphazard way that it's done on the board is inefficient and wearing. it also invites clever little manipulations by men who really have little good intent.
educational links on the history of feminism, social, and global feminist issues, etc would save time, energy and emotional wear and tear on regular posters. some system of simple redirection to a guy that isn't getting it with a notice of 'read this and then please come and talk' could really help. i find the anger and fear that some men demonstrate on the feminist thread disturbing.
i don't think that getting into verbal fights with them furthers the cause.
rather than fighting and banning and pussyfooting around with them, lets get a system in place to redirect them to 'home study' as it were. then allow them back to talk.
the ones with good intent will do the reading if the idea is presented in a matter of fact , unhostile way.
From: stratford, on | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Email this thread to someone!
That satisfies me. On the main babble page there are some archived discussion already, so this would be the same.
