A friend recently gave me a gift of the latest issue of the magazine Taddle Creek, a Toronto literary publication. She thought it would inspire me to write more, maybe send my stuff out to magazines for publication.

I always read the letters to the editor, and they were quite funny and illuminating, until I realized they were serious, not ironic.

Their publication guidelines state that they will not accept any writing that uses double spacing after the period.

WTF???

It seems that putting two spaces after the period has become "trendy" in some writing circles, to which I would respond again with:

WTF???

Have any babblers heard of this? Before this I had never heard of the double-space phenomenon. Why would such a trend start? What possible meaning could the extra space signify? A social movement? Literary brilliance?

Please respond to this urgent and vital current issue.

Taddle Creek Magazine guidelines (look under rule 9-6)

In high school I was taught that you HAD to put two spaces after a period, to seperate sentences. Then I got to university, and was told to NEVER put two spaces after a period, though I still wrestle with the habit of it from time to time. When I am editing other peoples' work, I often receive word files where there are two spaces after a period, which is a royal pain in the ass, because I have to go through and change them all to single spaces. This only goes to prove that it wasn't only my high school that taught students that it is necessary to use double spacing.

But like BCG, I'm completely baffled by the so-called "trendiness" of double spaces.

Here is one answer:

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Why We Do It
Why is typing a double space after the end of a sentence such a common practice? And why do so many writers still deliver copy this way? The answer: typing class! This is how most of us were taught to type (and still are, in many cases). The two-space habit is based on the limitations of typewriters; specifically, of typewriter fonts.

Typewriter fonts are monospaced, which means that every letter, whether it’s a wide letter such as ‘m’ or a narrow letter like ‘i’, takes up the same amount of space. This makes for very open-looking spacing, so the convention of adding an extra space between sentences was established to achieve a noticeable separation between sentences.

Conversely, nearly all computer fonts (except Courier) have proportional spacing, which means that the width of the characters and the spacing surrounding them are in proportion to each other. Proportional spacing results in a more even, balanced appearance. Because of this, a single space is enough to create the necessary visual separation between sentences.

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Originally posted by jrose:
In high school I was taught that you HAD to put two spaces after a period, to seperate sentences.

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Originally posted by torontoprofessor:
Me too!

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Grammar Girl provides short, friendly tips to improve your writing. Covering the grammar rules and word choice guidelines that can confound even the best writers, Grammar Girl makes complex grammar questions simple with memory tricks to help you recall and apply those troublesome grammar rules. Whether English is your first language or second language, Grammar Girl’s punctuation, style, and business tips will make you a better and more successful writer. Mignon Fogarty is the creator and host of Grammar Girl. Grammar Girl is a Quick and Dirty Tips podcast.

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You do observe that in French, there is a space between a word and a question mark, colon etc. But the software does that automatically.

It is CORRECT to put double spaces after periods. After colons and semi-colons, you put one space. After full stops (whether periods, question marks, or exclamation points), you put two spaces.

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It's true that when it comes to grammar there are a lot of hard and fast rules; but it's also true that there are hundreds, maybe thousands, of issues that are dictated by style. I know it would be so much easier if the rules were just black and white, and I could always just tell you what to do -- I like to tell people what to do -- but in a lot of cases you're just going to have to decide on your own.

Here's an example: there is an email list for writers that I subscribe to where the people are practically in a flame war right now about whether there should be one or two spaces after the period at the end of the sentence. These people are surprisingly militant about spaces. Honestly, it kind of scares me; but regardless of what you think about the issue, the bottom line is that it's enough of an unresolved point that it's a matter of style. You should just find out what the style is of the people you are writing for and do it that way.

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So, it seems that maybe there isn't a black and white answer.

I also happen to have my copy of the Chicago Manual right beside me, and it says:

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2.12 – A single character space, not two spaces, should be left after periods at the ends of sentences (both in manuscript and in final, published form) and after colons.

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jrose, within my personal circle, I'm known as the Grammar Queen. Grammar was heavily emphasized when I went to school and I still have a textbook that is the last word (for me!) if rules of grammar are disputed. It's called Mastering Effective English and it's one of my essential tools.

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I've taught writing/journalism at the university level and have found students to be frustrated with their lack of training in grammar. By the time they're in university, it's really late to try to learn the basic rules.

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Thanks, Sharon!

Gawd, the number of lectures I've had from senior editors about, say, restrictive and non-restrictive clauses, and the attention given that arcane subject esp. in US editing/journalism circles -- and yet the Brits basically say that or which interchangeably, and minimize commas everywhere, with no regard for all that "American stuff". No less correct.

I still remember the snotty New Yorker review (redundant?) of Eats Shoots and Leaves, looking down their nose at this grammatical amateur. Screw off, New Yorker! Honestly, how did that stuff became a status item?

So this single/double-space debate is just hot air. Adapt to the publication rules of the specific periodical and forget trying to find any higher reason in it.

[ 30 January 2008: Message edited by: Geneva ]

1. Don’t mispell!

2. Remember: punctuation. matters,

3. Avoid clichés like the plague.

4. Eschew obfuscation.

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Originally posted by Sharon:
I've taught writing/journalism at the university level and have found students to be frustrated with their lack of training in grammar. By the time they're in university, it's really late to try to learn the basic rules.

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I would expect at least two things of journalism students. First, they should be somewhat literate, so that that many of our common grammar, spelling, and punctuation conventions are second nature to them. Second, journalism students should be somewhat curious about writing: curious enough to have a few grammar books, as well as some style books and other similar reference books. If a student is modestly literate and appropriately curious, then lack of specifically grammatical training should not get in her way. I would expect a journalism student to be happy to learn something new, especially a tool of the trade.

[Edited for grammar. ; ) ]

[ 30 January 2008: Message edited by: Martha (but not Stewart) ]

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Originally posted by Martha (but not Stewart):

I would expect at least two things of journalism students. First, they should be somewhat literate, so that that many of our common grammar, spelling, and punctuation conventions are second nature to them. Second, journalism students should be somewhat curious about writing: curious enough to have a few grammar books, as well as some style books and other similar reference books. If a student is modestly literate and appropriately curious, then lack of specifically grammatical training should not get in her way. I would expect a journalism student to be happy to learn something new, especially a tool of the trade.

[Edited for grammar. ; ) ]

[ 30 January 2008: Message edited by: Martha (but not Stewart) ]

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Originally posted by Geneva:
So this single/double-space debate is just hot air. Adapt to the publication rules of the specific periodical and forget trying to find any higher reason in it.

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With this I agree entirely.

Our grammar, spelling, and puncuation conventions are just that: conventions. It suits the goals of clear communication to share these conventions quite widely. And, of course, some of these conventions are more important than others with respect to this goal. While the use of Arial or Times New Roman is pretty much irrelevant to success in communication, the use of ALL CAPS CAN GET ANNOYING AND CAN GET IN THE WAY OF CLEAR COMMUNICATION.

On some issues, there simply is no widely accepted convention. I would say that the issue of how many spaces to leave after a period is one such. Ditto for the issue of how much space to leave before the beginning of a new paragraph. (By the way, the preceding sentence contains no verb; I would argue that it is a grammatical acceptable sentence nonetheless. I would also argue that it is annoying style for someone to make too much use of verbless sentences (or of off-the-cuff neologisms like "verbless" (or of too deeply embedded parentheses)).)

I've always had the view that there's no sense in saying that this or that grammatical convention is correct in any sense other than conventionally used by the audience one is trying to communicate with. There's nothing intrinsically incorrect about "ain't".

[ 30 January 2008: Message edited by: Martha (but not Stewart) ]

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Perhaps they have deteriorated since their student days.

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Originally posted by jrose:

I never, never, never learned grammar in university, besides getting marked-up papers back from profs. It is assumed that most journalism students have a strong grasp, and we do, but that doesn't mean that we wouldn't benefit from a break from our history of journalism and theory of journalism classes to rediscover the basics.

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Then why do working journalists have such a poor grasp?

ETA: I should maybe qualify that. There is some well-written material. I suppose I'm talking about the people who appear on t.v. and write for most of the daily newspapers and the big magazines.

[ 30 January 2008: Message edited by: RosaL ]

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Originally posted by jrose:
... that doesn't mean that we wouldn't benefit from a break from our history of journalism and theory of journalism classes to rediscover the basics.

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Most university students in most subjects would benefit from a break from their subjects to rediscover the grammatical basics. This is why I frequently take such breaks, by perusing grammar books, reading about words, and so on. I especially enjoy reading the original version of Fowler's English Usage. It's very old school, and at time dryly hilarious (or hilariously dry).

And obviously, some terrible spellers exist even at the highest writing levels; I remember a newspaper columnist who had a regular quoted source named Brian and every single time -- every ONE! -- he was called Brain.

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Originally posted by Geneva:
Some people look at language as an end, others as simply a means;

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Originally posted by RosaL:
What bothers me is the loss of precision. It becomes impossible to make distinctions or to make them understood. Discourse becomes muddled.

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Some innovations tend towards a loss of precision, and some do not. The disappearance of "whom" in many contexts has not, I believe, affected precision. "Whom do you love?" is no more precise than "Who do you love?". Arguably, however, the disappearance of "thou" as the informal second person singular did bring with it a loss of expressive power (and probably also precision). Speakers of French, with "tu" and "vous" (like the old "thou" and "you") can colour their remarks to one another in all sorts of interesting ways. I remember a Rohmer movie in which, in a single conversation, the two interlocutors kept switching back and forth from "tu" to "vous" as the conversation progressed. Both "tu" and "vous" were translated as "you" in the subtitles, so all that shading was lost in the translation. Clearly we should advocate for the return of "thou".

[ 30 January 2008: Message edited by: Martha (but not Stewart) ]

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Originally posted by Martha (but not Stewart):

Some innovations tend towards a loss of precision, and some do not. ]

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Originally posted by Catchfire:
"To who am I speaking" certainly grates on the ear.

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(1) To whom am I speaking? : )
(2) Who am I speaking to? : )
(3) To who am I speaking to? : (

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Originally posted by bliter:
Commas, of course, are another matter entirely. There is a story of a battle started inadvertently because of misplaced, or absent, commas in a field communication.

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I was looking at an event ticket that I received for free from a friend that said: $3.00 tax included

I wondered if the ticket was $3.00 with the tax included in that amount (which should have been written "$3.00, tax included") or if the tax itself was $3.00 (which should have been written "$3.00 tax, included").

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Originally posted by bliter:
I consider spacing after full stops less a grammar thing, than visual, since it doesn't change the context of what's written.

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Lynn Harris: Wait. And the period is manly?

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Anyone who is using two spaces in an electronic document should be... nevermind, I just edited myself.

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Originally posted by bigcitygal:

It seems that putting two spaces after the period has become "trendy" in some writing circles, to which I would respond again with:

WTF???

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Originally posted by Digiteyes:
Two spaces dates back to typewriters.

And to elaborate on the correct answer, its all about proportional fonts. Typewriters use fixed fonts, each letter takes up the same amount of room, hence the need the to put two spaces after a period. A period takes up the same amount of space as a letter.

It is not so much the computer that has ushered in the era of proportional fonts as it was printers, in particular the laser printer. Laser printers and ink jets can produce proportional fonts with a minimum of fuss.

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As recently as a few years ago my peer reviewers were correcting me anytime I only used one space. And I can say I've never had anyone correct me for using two spaces.

My daughter is in IB II and her extended essay advisor flagged anyplace in her draft where she had only used one space as an error. Be interesting to see what her profs say when she's in university next year.

Sounds like this is someplace where people agree to disagree.

[ 27 August 2008: Message edited by: abnormal ]

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Originally posted by abnormal:

My daughter is in IB II and her extended essay advisor flagged anyplace in her draft where she had only used one space as an error.

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1. What's IB II?

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Originally posted by Digiteyes:
Anyone who is using two spaces in an electronic document should be... nevermind, I just edited myself.

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I just find this so strange. I've been working as an admin assistant since 1996 (with three years off for university - didn't finish at the time, and am finishing now part-time) and I am constantly producing letters, documents, brochures, reports, etc. Not to mention a zillion essays for university. And I always use two spaces after periods, and I've never even once had anyone tell me that this is wrong or not their style.

Sure, I learned to type on a typewriter since I went to high school in the latter half of the 80's, but my entire working life has been using computers and word processors (and then, in the last few years, desktop publishing programs).

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posted by unionist:
1. What's IB II?

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http://www.ibo.org/

As jrose pointed out (and cited) in her posting, the convention of two spaces after a full stop was one that applied to typewritten material, where horizontal spacing was both fixed and uniform (monospaced).

With the advent of word processing and the introduction of desktop publishing software, some of the typographical conventions changed because of the possibility of proportional spacing that had previously been the preserve of skilled typesetters.

Having worked in publishing, as a typesetter, since the early 1980s (I started before the dawn of desktop publishing, although a glow on the horizon was visible) I am frequently amused by absolutist pronouncements about typographic style issued by individuals who come from the editorial side of the line that runs through any publication. In my experience, the more absolute the the tone of the pronouncement, the less the one speaking understands about typography.

Having read the rules for submission from the link provided by bigcitygal in her original posting, I will hasten to add that I don't think Taddle Creek was making an absolute pronouncement. Indeed, that tongue was so firmly planted in cheek that I fear that there may have been tearing.

On the other hand, being one of those guys of a certain age, I feel almost compelled to go off on a ramble about word processing and style guides... forgive me.

Having read all the entries in this thread, I am working under the assumption that the overwhelming majority of the posters are most comfortable on the editorial side of the line that I referred to earlier. From here on the typesetting side of that line I would like to offer a few suggestions on how you should employ the word processing software you create and/or edit your submissions on. They are all predicated on the fact that the software(s) the writers and editors usually employ are different than the software(s) us proles in the trenches are going to run.

At the risk of offending the writers and editors I find myself amongst, your submissions are usually just thought of as raw data to be imported into whatever software we are employing (Pagemaker in the early 80s, Quark from the later 80s to the present, InDesign most recently, and there is always the chance we will be using a company specific proprietary system you have never heard of). You would probably be shocked at how cavalierly we treat your attempts at pre-coding your submissions (frequently overheard in the last office I was working in, "Come over here, see what Tom/Tammy Typist tried to do!").

Frankly, gentle writers, you should live by the guideline that the the spacebar and/or return (enter) keys should never be pressed twice in a row. We are just going to strip them out. Of course you might be unlucky, we may miss one or more of them in the stripping process, and then your article will look bad. Less is more, the less often you use those keys, the more likely that the finished article will look good. (As for those of you who indent your paragraphs by striking the spacebar repeatedly instead of using the first line indent function of your word processing software, well, best not talk about that.) If you want space above your paragraphs for ease of reading the output, use the "space above" feature rather than multiple returns (enter key) - it is why that function exists. It is almost a certainty that the finished product is not going to have extra spacing between paragraphs.

Typesetters thrive on applying style guides, but we know the rules are usually arbitrary. We have a whole clan of spacing options open to us: the space generated by the spacebar, the thin space, the en space, the em space, the fixed horizontal space, the non-breaking space, the optional horizontal space (and its accompanying override) and, by and large, we aren't afraid to use them. We also know that they don't always translate well from one software to another. Personally I would be happy if, for example, a non-breaking space after abbreviated titles (Dr., Ms., Mr. and so on) could be relied upon to survive translation from word processing software, but I have seen too many floating tildes resulting from incompatible translations.

Am I going anywhere with this? I hope so, I hope the ramble will come round full circle and meet up with my original observation that the question was about typography, not grammar.

One of my favourite slogans from when I was involved with Canadian University Press was "Freedom of the press belongs to those who control the presses". I appreciate and approve of the way that desktop publishing has, to some degree, democratized publishing and weakened the control of those who control the presses. At the same time, I lament at how the publishing industry has attempted to devalue and downplay the skills of those who work on the typesetting side of the line that runs through any publication. Typographers are still doing skilled worked and are the specialists who should be answering these questions, not the grammarians. Then again, it may just be a "class" thing.

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[ 28 August 2008: Message edited by: bagkitty ]

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Originally posted by bigcitygal:
Before this I had never heard of the double-space phenomenon.

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