The carbon tax allows him to claim green credentials, increase revenues to fund tax cuts, while not doing a single serious thing about the environment. It's perfect.

In the same vein, nuclear power is just oh, so convenient. Never mind the lifecycle: mining, processing, refining, transporting, concrete, construction, operating, water, storage, etc ..., let's only think of the electrical generation.

Climate change trumps other environmental issues because it is so, so big and because it has the capacity to be so in your face. But there are a host of other issues that run the gamut that are equally pressing. Essentially every earth system is under stress.

quote:

---

I think we all know why Campbell got religion on climate change, but my question is if/why people with even modest environmental credentials would abandon other green initiatives for some action on climate change.

---

quote:

---

Better take care of mother earth before she takes care of you.

---

quote:

---

I think we all know why Campbell got religion on climate change, but my question is if/why people with even modest environmental credentials would abandon other green initiatives for some action on climate change. It's an earnest question; as green as I would like to claim to be, I am no no way in the environmental movement to any depth. I'm curious to hear from people who are if this is really a new trend or just a direction taken by a fringe-ish few.

---

Now I'm curious to hear from Fartful Codger as to whether these few postings have satisfied his curiosity about a "fringe-ish few". There's been no "abandonment", no factor in our global fuckup is an island.

Personally, I think you should take your ass down to the library and read some of the many sources mentioned here in the past few months. If you're satisfied with secondary sources - the babble of the rabble or what old Tom and Jack opine from behind their coffee cups at Saint Timothy's - you're probably destined to remain a "curious" bystander.

quote:

---

Ah yes, how to reinterpret a point blank warning as a fate accompli.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by George Victor:

---

I see the superiority brigade has ridden in.

Ain't never been to no liberry. Ain't that one of them fancy book places? Hoo-Eee! Thankee, kind sir, fer settin' me right!

Look up to the top of the page and you'll see the phrase "discussion forum." So I thought I'd start a "discussion" on what seemed to me a new trend. Greens, both big and small-G have long been at the vanguard of the anti-nukes campaigns. Now, because of the climate change implications, we've seen a few people express the point of view that nuclear is green energy. That struck me as curious. Curious things make me want to have discussions.

Thought you had been around long enough to have seen the many, lengthy, frenetic debates over the past year (I came on board a year back).

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fartful Codger:
In one of the post-election threads, one

---

quote:

---

He didn't. He said he doesn't believe climate change trumps all other environmental issues. Of course, it does, but because it is planetary in scope. So are other issues. But changes to ocean chemistry, shrinking ice caps, desertification, etc ... are all related to climate change.

---

Uh, there may be degrees of climate change deniers, FM, but if you believe in climate change, its very immutability in terms of its effect on Earth and its species, has to mean that it is THE one to be concerned about, eh?

The first scientist advocate of nuclear power is James Lovelock, whose books on Gaia (and whose scientific insights have moved the teaching of biology itself) has been the most prominent advocate of nuclear power as the only way to reduce greenhouse gas emissions while saving something of "modern industrial life".

I haven't seen any polls about shifting opinion, but I expect to see, at some point, a shift toward nuclear as climatic instability hits not only the poor goddam bears but the captains of industry and their minions in the valley of the Bow River.

[ 19 October 2008: Message edited by: George Victor ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fartful Codger:
There's no question that climate change is the most important environmental issue. What I meant by saying it shouldn't "trump" other environmental issues is that it's a mistake to create other environmental messes trying to address climate change.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fartful Codger:
In one of the post-election threads, one large-G Green supporter expressed a preference for nuclear power, because of the absence of greenhouse gases. Yesterday, the former leader of the BC Greens (Christopher Bennett) threw his endorsement behind Gordon Campbell because of Campbell's carbon tax, even though Gordo is in favour of fish farms and offshore oil and gas development and is opposed to species-at-risk legislation.

It's a reasonable argument to make that climate change trumps all other environmental considerations - I don't agree, but you can make a reasonable argument - but I'm curious to know what other greens on the board (large G and otherwise) think of this. Is this a trend toward supporting climate change mitigation even at the expense of other aspects of the environment? Or are these isolated beliefs not part of the larger environmental movement? Is the idea that we'll address climate change now and come back to these other issues?

---

Why didn't federal Liberals use existing carbon taxes on home heating fuel and gasoline to curb rising GHG emissions in Canada, approximately 2% of global output? Meanwhile the U.S. is a source of 22% of total production and the largest importer of cheap Canadian energy?

quote:

---

There's no question that climate change is the most important environmental issue. What I meant by saying it shouldn't "trump" other environmental issues is that it's a mistake to create other environmental messes trying to address climate change.

---

It's the biggest bandwagon issue of our lifetimes it seems... Which offers itself as an excellent 'greenwash' issue where you can get away with eco-cide (is that a term?) as long as you pay for some CO2 credits, who cares? "Hey, I painted my hummer green, that means I care about the environment right?" would be the residential equivlent. Heh, "I turned my lights out for an hour this year, I must be eco-friendly too" fits into the same category... Remember how proud that one hour made us all feel, the .00001% of a year that we could claim 'eco-friendly' and bask in the glowing warmth that 'caring' for our Earth brings? The population has a direct input into climate change and 'personal emissions' are measurable... This seems to invoke the search to 'feel good' about yourself by finding some personal greenwashing technique.

Not to say this is everyone... But the amount of greenwashing that occours on a corporate and personal level is extreme compared to what would amount to 'real action' and I think the 'Climate change (CO2) trumps all' attitude rings the strongest in this group.

So anything like this:

quote:

---

Yesterday, the former leader of the BC Greens (Christopher Bennett) threw his endorsement behind Gordon Campbell because of Campbell's carbon tax, even though Gordo is in favour of fish farms and offshore oil and gas development and is opposed to species-at-risk legislation.

---

is usually a good sign of greenwashing... Makes it look like you kinda care about the hot topic of the environment cause and gain a few votes, while nobody notices any other policy on the environment. I'm not sure on this particular case though, perhaps the BC green leader decided this one cause was enough to trump all others.

I guess the other thing to note is the role CO2 plays in the life cycle here. Plant life uses CO2 + H2O and light (energy) converts to O2 and sugars (stored energy). Animal life reverses that process... So any life (plant and animal) is ultimately very intimately tied in with the carbon cycle which is tied to climate change. Heh, I guess the environment is tied to all environmentalism and I would think the changes in the environment (climate chage) kinda impacts almost any aspect of environmentalism.

I think it'll also depend on how you frame the question. 'Stop climate change', as if it was something 'stopable', usually comes from the bandwagon side that will trump all with climate change.

[ 20 October 2008: Message edited by: Noise ]