9/11 is easily the most important event of the past 60 years and yet I can't seem to find a single thread on this forum devoted to it. Other forums have entire sub forums devoted to 9/11 (such as Progressive Independent).

There are so many events going on in the world today that began as a result of 9/11. There are so many unanswered questions about the event itself...such as how did the steel melt into molten pools when the fires only reached 800 degrees farenheit and it takes 1300 degrees of constant heat (such as you would find in a steel foundry) to soften or melt steel? And why did a third skyscraper, WTC7, that was NOT hit by a plane and suffered no major damage or fires...collapse into its footprint in less than 10 seconds?

Unless these questions are answered honestly, there can be no honest debate about any the events (such as Afghanistan) that occurred as a result of 9/11.

gc

[ 23 June 2007: Message edited by: greencrow ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by greencrow:
Am I mistaken or is the topic of 9/11 a 'forbidden subject' on this forum?

---

I believe you're mistaken.

quote:

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9/11 is easily the most important event of the past 60 years

---

"I believe you're mistaken."

Is this the level of debate on this forum?

Ok Phonz...just to liven up the 'debate', can you name one event in the last 60 years that was a more significant event than 9/11...and why?

gc

[ 23 June 2007: Message edited by: greencrow ]

quote:

---

9/11 is easily the most important event of the past 60 years

---

Let me guess, did it involve a direct 'terrorist' attack on two of the most important buildings in the most powerful nation in the world?

Did it involve the theft of billions in gold bullion from beneath the towers?

Did it involve the complete stand down of the greatest $400 billion a year military force in the history of mankind and NATO?

Did it involve the flying out of families of the so-called hijackers within days of the event without publically identifying them or even interviewing some of them?

Did it involve providing a pretext for a world wide 'war on terror' that has so far cost over 700,000 lives and has contaminated the soil, water and vegetation of an entire country for 4 billion years via depleated uranium?

Did it allow the override of the constitution of one of the greatest democracies in history (the US).

Did it contaminate the soil of one of the most heavily populated cities in North America with as yet unknown substances that has so far caused the illness of 5,000 first responders?

Hmmmmmmm

I'm having trouble here Phonz...can you give me another hint?

Could you please change your thread title to reflect the topic of this thread, please? If you want to discuss 9-11 in this thread, you should say so in the thread topic. "ver boten" doesn't tell someone scanning the thread titles anything about what this thread is about.

Thanks for the tip. Could you please point me in the direction of any existing threads on 9/11 on this forum so I can catch up with the discussion there? Thanks.

Dismissing the duty to self-educate on matters of political importance with an off hand remark about one small addition ("Loose Change') to the virtual banquet of evidence on 9/11 does not answer the question of its importance.

9/11 was the pretext for getting rid of 'habeas corpus' in the US. This is a right handed down to western civilization from the late middle ages.

9/11 was the pretext for the US government holding prisoners without charges or trial for years and for torturing them.

No other event in the past 60 years has altered our society so profoundly.

[ 23 June 2007: Message edited by: greencrow ]

[ 23 June 2007: Message edited by: greencrow ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by greencrow:
9/11 was the pretext for getting rid of 'habeas corpus' in the US.

---

CIA's dispensed with this for decades.

quote:

---

9/11 was the pretext for the US government holding prisoners without charges or trial for years and for torturing them.

---

No, I mean the world. How can you confine the impact to North America when you know what has happened in Afghanistan and the Middle East?

When the United States, the most powerful country in the world says that, because of 9/11, it can attack any country in the world PRE-EMPTIVELY, if it considers it to be a threat...how can you consider that not to be an earth shaking event?

Certainly, the Americans have used it as a pretext for other events of international importance. But it was only a pretext.

quote riginally posted by greencrow:
9/11 was the pretext for getting rid of 'habeas corpus' in the US.

CIA's dispensed with this for decades.

quote:9/11 was the pretext for the US government holding prisoners without charges or trial for years and for torturing them.

The psychiatric industry has been doing this for over a century.

Oh, so you dismiss the getting rid of habeas corpus with the broad brush of 'they were doing it anyhow'...

...that's like saying people were speeding and getting traffic tickets anyway so the government decided to eliminate all speed limits.

This argument does not hold vis a vis the elimination of 'habeas corpus'.

and to compare psychiatric malpractice with abu graib and guantanamo is specious to the extreme.

[ 23 June 2007: Message edited by: greencrow ]

[ 23 June 2007: Message edited by: greencrow ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by greencrow:
Oh, so you dismiss the getting rid of habeas corpus with the broad brush of 'they were doing it anyhow'...

---

Not at all. I'm saying: Don't blame 911. Habeas corpus has been slowly eroded since the civil war.

quote:

---

and to compare psychiatric malpractice with abu graib and guantanamo is specious to the extreme.

---

Certainly, the Americans have used it as a pretext for other events of international importance. But it was only a pretext.

. . . .

Only a pretext? Munro you have to ask yourself what is a pretext and what purpose does a 'pretext' serve? If a pretext is the root cause of an effect, is it not highly important to examine that root cause as a way of understanding the motivation and the intent of the perpetrators?

In other words, unless we understand who actually "did" 9/11, how can we understand why it has served as a pretext for so many other nefarious activities? Unless we understand its significance in history, how can we avoid other 9/11's?

Munro, does humanity really have the luxury of the time to allow history to unfold and many generations to evolve the objectivity to critically analyse 9/11? Or, have we already lost too many of our traditional rights and freedoms (not to mention international institutions such as the UN) to sit back and wait for the 'fullness of time'? Finally, would this passivity of the 'sheeple' not be just what the perpetrators of 9/11 want?

I....I.....I....

Sorry, just getting old testiment on Greencrow.

............. surely, you've all heard of an I for an I.

[ 23 June 2007: Message edited by: Tommy_Paine ]

...I'm not talking about psychiatric malpractice. I'm talking about psychiatric practice in general. It's a crucial difference. I'm talking about forced sterilization, forced drugging, forced electroshock, four-point restraints, Shepherd's pie."

. . . .

You are talking about psychiatric malpractice. All the practices you name above have been universally condemned by society and by government. If you disagree, please provide a source. Thanks.

gc

[ 23 June 2007: Message edited by: greencrow ]

http://www.psychlaws.org/

The Treatment Advocacy Center is run by one Dr. E. Fuller Torrey, the USA's premier psychiatrist. Torrey has the support of NAMI, Big Pharma and the Bush government.

ETA: http://tinyurl.com/2hmsne

[ 23 June 2007: Message edited by: Phonz ]

Still, judging from close up is a very dangerous thing. I have no crystal ball to know what the impact of the humanitarian disaster in Iraq will be once the Americans finally realize they lost. Nor do I know what will happen when NATO realizes its Afghanistan advent hasn't transformed a traditional culture. I do know that it at leat appears that a majority in the States are beginning to come out of their self-induced hypnosis and are realizing that the neocon agenda with all of its attendant excesses is bad news.

Maybe I'm just getting too old. I can remember when THE most important events ever were sputnik, the Gulf of Tonkin, the fall of the Berlin Wall, etc., etc., etc. All of them were significant, true. Possibly of greater significance to the cadence of history then 9/11.

Can you please quote where in your link it says the US government officially (through legislation) supports the practices you list?

Of course, this is a nice side track away from the impact of 9/11 and, specifically, the official US government policy of incarceration without charges or trial and torture--as evidenced in abu ghraib and and guantanamo.

I repeat, 9/11 was the most important event of the last 60 years in terms of its short and long term effects on the health of the planet and the well-being of humanity (acting as a distraction to pressing environmental issues).

That's why we must promote an immediate, open and official investigation of 9/11 and, in the meantime, educate citizens of its direct and indirect effects on the world.

Out for now,

quote:

---

Originally posted by greencrow:
Can you please quote where in your link it says the US government officially (through legislation) supports the practices you list?

---

No, because I don't know that the Treatment Advocacy Center has such a statement on its website. But, if it's forced drugging that you want to read about, check out the Texas Medication Algorithm Project. You could also check out mental health laws for every state and every province. It's all there in black and white. To be honest, since you didn't even know that psych patients are force-drugged, I'm not inclined to go do a whole bunch of research for you.

quote:

---

Of course, this is a nice side track away from the impact of 9/11 and, specifically, the official US government policy of incarceration without charges or trial and torture--as evidenced in abu ghraib and and guantanamo.

---

ETA: http://tinyurl.com/7oy2j

quote:

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What will happen under this national push to gain more market share for the drug companies? As with TMAP, people refusing drugs for what are diagnosed as a wide array of "disorders" can expect not only to be forced to take powerful and extremely dangerous neuroleptics, but also to receive shock treatment.

---

[ 23 June 2007: Message edited by: Phonz ]

could it be that Ghandi was assasinated in India

or

Welcome greencrow. Actually most people do not discuss 911 here for whatever reasons.

Here is the link to make your links small, so the page is not a pain to try and read as it discourages reading and posting.

You can edit the links by the white page with the pencil up top. thanks

But I know the U.S. is the center of the universe, and a couple of buildings that got knocked down are forever more the dividing line between before and after.

Pre 9/11, post 9/11, it makes me wanna puke.

What about pre-american bombing of Iraq? Or the decade long economic sanctions that have resulted in countless Iraqi civilian deaths.

I'll bet Iraqis have a different view of what is the most significant event in history.

It's all about the U.S.

quote:

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Originally posted by Maritimesea:
Fuck the U.S.

---

Agreed.

The most important development in my lifetime (40 years plus) has been the emergence of the rights of children. That is, without a doubt, the most exciting thing on the world stage that I have seen.

[Edited again because I'm listening to schmaltzy music on CBC (Gordon Lightfoot, give me a break!) and can't concentrate.]

[ 23 June 2007: Message edited by: Phonz ]

More recently, a thread on Kevin Potvin in the Canadian politics section led to a thread in the same section entitled:
Questioning 9/11: effectively disallowed in Canadian society and its continuation , which has not been closed yet for getting too long.

And there have been numerous others. Most recently, Where is 9/11 taking Canada?

If you are looking to interact with people who have realized how strong the evidence is that the WTC tragedy was a controlled demolition, this isn’t really the board to do it. But if you want heated debate, and if you want to struggle upstream trying to make people open their eyes to the lies, then this is a good place to do that. An additional dimension to this whole thing is the inability of individuals (regardless of political leanings) and society at large, to face the physical evidence. It is a shock to one’s system to realize you’ve been duped like this -- I know. When engaging in debate, there is also the outright hostility and incivility to deal with. But it’s a worthy cause, I wish you success, best of luck!

PS- I’ve been looking for blogs on what’s been happening at the Vancouver 911 Truth conference, does anyone have some up-to-date links?

[ 23 June 2007: Message edited by: gram swaraj ]

Thanks also to others for your comments...great reading them.

gram, I see that the earlier discussion followed the usual pattern of 9/11 on forums...those postulating the evidence and others responding with distractions and dysinfo on cue.

It is amazing with so little proof of the Official Version and no arrests or capture of suspects...there are those who so adamantly oppose any more investigation. Can you think why?

One of the amazing things about this story as it has evolved is that the latest received opinions are soooo shocking, so over the top that even I hesitate to repeat them here, although the hard evidence for them is also pretty compelling.

Well, I will name two, just as an example.

I come from a forum where many posters have pretty well reached the conclusion that there were NO planes at all. Yep, no planes. They say that the Planes were superimposed on the images of the explosions by FAUX news.

Another theory that is quickly gaining traction is that there were smallish suitcase nukes exploded underneath each of the towers. This would account for the huge molten pools of steel that remained molten weeks after the event...only a nuke could create that level of heat. Also the skyrocketing incidence of cancers of the first responders is pointing to some level of radiation at the site. Also, high levels of radiation has been detected at the 'Fresh Kills' waste dump where the WTC rubble was transported and dumped.

Yes, this story has all kinds of twists and turns...worth following.

gc

[ 23 June 2007: Message edited by: greencrow ]

You might be interested to know that there are 9/11 researchers who have taken apart every single video clip of that day frame by frame and analysed and compared each and very one of those videos.

It is these researchers who have decided that there were NO planes, not me. They arrived at this conclusion by comparing the different angles of the videos, and the trajectory of the planes, they have blown up the frames of the planes and looked at them pixil by pixil and arrived at their conclusions thus.

So I suggest you get videos and go through them frame by frame before you start arguing with these experts.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Phonz:
Seriously can't figure the tipping point for this issue. Is it feminist? Should be. Women are the primary mental patients. Is it POC? Should be. Minorities are statistically more likely to be psychiatrically labelled. Is it the poor? Should be. The homeless are often deemed "mentally ill" for the crime of living on the streets. I just don't get it. What would it take for this fundamental civil rights issue to take centre stage?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by greencrow:
You might be interested to know that there are 9/11 researchers who have taken apart every single video clip of that day frame by frame and analysed and compared each and very one of those videos.

---

"...Oh, fuck, tell me about it. And every single one of them (it seems) have sat at my dinner table.

. . . . .

I know it's difficult to come up with cogent responses to such a banquet of evidence but do try.

Pilots for 9/11 truth issue report

No Plane Hit the Pentagon

Click

The Pentagon has become a kind of litmus test for rationality in the study of 9/11," Fetzer said. "Those who persist in maintaining that a Boeing 757 hit the building are either unfamiliar with the evidence or cognitively impaired. Unless," he added, "they want to mislead the American people. The evidence is beyond clear and compelling. It places this issue 'beyond a reasonable doubt'. No Boeing 757 hit the Pentagon."

[ 23 June 2007: Message edited by: greencrow ]

[ 24 June 2007: Message edited by: Michelle ]

Was it an inside job? It's possible, but not likely.

Bush shut down the 911 inquiry commission before it could hear all of the evidence and testimonies publicly. That indicates the government doesn't want certain things to be known to the public. Many documents are under national security designation and so can't be released.

But does necessarily prove it was an inside job? No. Not even close. The only thing that seems to be fairly certain is that the US government, including the Bush Administration (if not Bush himself) knew the attacks were coming, with some pretty precise info, and didn't stop them. That alone, as far as I’m concerned, is enough to warrant the overthrow of the Bush regime—or at least impeachment of Dubya himself, which many Americans are pushing for.

And we know about Bush and the Republicans’ links with Al Qaeda and the Taliban. My outstanding question is why did it take the air national guard, which normally has planes in the air within two minutes of being notified, took 18 minutes to respond.

But the rest of what I have read from different sources--dynamited buildings; carefully engineered calculations of how the jet fuel could melt the steel; missiles posing as planes, etc., are just too full of conjecture and errors to be credible, let alone conclusive.

It's one thing to raise the possibility of these conspiracies based on circumstantial evidence, since most often that's all legitimately concerned and curious people have to go on--and it's certainly possible that circumstantial evidence, if not refuted by other facts, is a sign of some deeper information that hasn't been revealed.

It's quite another to draw a final conclusion insisting there IS a conspiracy when in fact the only evidence offered is incidental and circumstantial and a lot of speculation added to it.

Unless someone finds a verified report somewhere showing some level of secret talks between the Bush-stag and Bin Laden before the attacks, or actually plotting them, then you can’t say with any credibility there was a conspiracy. Suspicion is all you can really say.

quote:

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Originally posted by Phonz:
The videos I refer to were of the WTC buildings. I don't believe those were faked. The video-takers weren't the only witnesses, remember.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by gram swaraj:
The second looked quite real. But as for the first...does anyone have a link to an actual image of the first airplane hitting the tower? If so, please do post the link.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Phonz:
The Pentagon is trickier, as there's less information.

---

Oh, also, if anyone has any links to images of identifiable plane wreckage around the Pentagon, please post them.

quote:

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Originally posted by Phonz:
In "Loose Change," they definitely had a video of the first plane.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by gram swaraj:
Oh, also, if anyone has any links to images of identifiable plane wreckage around the Pentagon, please post them.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by gram swaraj:
You mean that thing built by Raytheon?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Phonz:

Let's get real. What's your position on the moon landing?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Phonz:
In "Loose Change," they definitely had a video of the first plane.

---

Why would there be a video of the first plane in "Loose Change," but not the mainstream media?

That terrorist pilot that hit the Pentagon was good, eh?

[ 24 June 2007: Message edited by: gram swaraj ]

Hey, all we're asking for is an immediate, comprehensive and official investigation.

Anyone who opposes that (or tries to minimize the importance of it) has to be suspect, given the mountain of 'probable cause'.

I repeat, why would anyone oppose the investigation of the deaths of thousands of people?

gc

[ 24 June 2007: Message edited by: greencrow ][URL= http://piglipstick.blogspot.com/

[ 24 June 2007: Message edited by: greencrow ]

[ 24 June 2007: Message edited by: greencrow ]

Click

[ 24 June 2007: Message edited by: Michelle ]

Please reduce your URLs using the URL function in the window, or by using tinyurl.com.

If your posts aren't edited in the next few hours, I will edit all the URLs out of your posts. (I'm not going to spend the time fixing your URLs, I'm just going to delete them.)

I have studiously and rigourously attempted to follow the directions and have no idea if the URL are now the correct size on other's screens or not.

They were always the correct size on my screen so I did not know I was causing difficulty, for which I apologize.

I think you will agree that the instructions are a little bit confusing because you cannot get rid of the http// at the beginning of the first screen and the second screen does not really have a purpose in the process.

Regards,

The directions should be easy. All you do when you want to enter an URL is to click the URL button, paste in the URL at the window prompt, then paste in the text at the next window prompt, and it will insert the code into your message.

quote:

---

Originally posted by greencrow:
Hey, all we're asking for is an immediate, comprehensive and official investigation.

---

Who's "we"!?

quote:

---

Anyone who opposes that (or tries to minimize the importance of it) has to be suspect, given the mountain of 'probable cause'.

---

I oppose that. What're you gonna do - citizen's arrest me?

quote:

---

I repeat, why would anyone oppose the investigation of the deaths of thousands of people?

---

Are you trying to be provocative by expressing opinions that go against the norms of human justice and empathy?

quote:

---

Originally posted by greencrow:
unionist

Are you trying to be provocative by expressing opinions that go against the norms of human justice and empathy?

---

I honed my posting 'style' in the hothouses of the NYT and currently on progressive independent...I like to sign off as gc.

Too bad I can't upload my Avatar onto this thread, it's a beauty! I also can't put a quote under my signature.

quote:

---

Am I mistaken or is the topic of 9/11 a 'forbidden subject' on this forum?

---

I know there is a distinct minority who absolutely hates any reference to 9/11... and it's for a very good reason. They are very pleased with the immediate outcome of the so-called 9/11 'investigation'. Even though the evidence has so many holes it looks like a brick of swiss cheese, they cling to it because it fits their agenda.

Too bad, rasmus...the truth has a way of rising through the sewage to the surface. 9/11 was one of the most evil acts in the history of the human race. The perpetrators deserve to be swinging from the gallows of history...and I certainly hope they do.

Hanging Around WTC 7

June 24, 2007 at 02:58:31

by amy de miceli Page 1 of 1 page(s)

The Alex Jones Radio Show had Jason Bermas back on to go over the latest news about World Trade Center Tower 7. Although Bermas slipped and said his first name on national radio, (with an international Internet audience) he is still refusing to confirm the identity of his source, or release the full 20 minute interview (until the unscheduled release of the Final Cut). Some people do not believe a movie release date is the proper timetable for truth. It is clear that the man on the tape is Barry Jennings, Deputy Director, Emergency Services Department, New York City Housing Authority. Mr. Jennings has already gone on the record. On 911 he was on the news covered with debris, like many survivors seen on television that day. Barry Jennings has put his full story on the record with Loose Change, and wanted to remain anonymous until the movie is released. If Jason Bermas had not said his name, that may have been possible, but that is no longer the case.

On the morning of 911 Barry Jennings with Mr. Hess, one of Rudy Giuliani's highest ranking appointed officials, New York city's corporation counsel, (Hess is a Yale and Harvard graduate, a lawyer who has represented the United States in numerous major cases).

It was just after the first attack on the North tower, but before the second plane hit the South Tower, when Barry Jennings escorted Michael Hess to the World Trade Center Tower 7. Mr. Jennings recalls a large number of police officers in the lobby of WTC 7 when they arrived. The two men went up to the 23rd floor, but could not get in, so they went back to the lobby and the police took them up in the freight elevator for a second try. When they arrived on level 23, at the Office of Emergency Management they found it had been recently deserted, "coffee that was on the desk, smoke was still coming off the coffee, I saw half eaten sandwiches".

At that point he made some phone calls, and an un-named individual told them to "leave, and leave right away". Jennings and Hess then proceeded to the stairs, and made it to level 6, when there was an explosion, and the stairwell collapsed from under their feet, Mr. Jennings was actually hanging, and had to climb back up. They made it back up to level 8, where Barry Jennings had a view of the twin towers, both buildings were still standing. This is an important detail, as many debunkers have used Mr. Jennings statements out of context to claim the damage came to WTC 7 from the towers collapsing, not the case according, to Mr. Jennings.

The interview has been cut off where they say how they made it to the lobby, but when they did make it down, Mr. Jennings found it destroyed and littered with dead bodies. He said it looked like, "King Kong had came through it and stepped on it, so destroyed, I didn't know where I was. So destroyed that they had to take me out through a hole in the wall, that I believe the fire department made to get me out." Shortly after he made it out, he was seen on several news channels telling his story.

Mr. Jennings is still confused as to why Building 7 had to come down at all, and does not accept the official reason that the noises he heard were from a fuel oil tank, "I know what I heard, I heard explosions". Michael Hess has not made any public statements about that morning with Barry Jennings, perhaps we can call on wearechange.org to document Michael Hess's account of the events on 911.

Since September 12 2001, there has been growing controversy surrounding World Trade Center 7. In the past few months more people are questioning the governments explanation, and the Main Stream Media's failure to ask important questions. In February the BBC's live report from 911 saying that WTC 7 collapsed a half an hour before the collapse had occurred was completely ignored by the MSM. Around the same time Rosie O'Donnell pushed her 30 million viewers to Google WTC 7. Now Loose Change has captured a 20 minute long interview with a completely credible source, this is huge news, and hopefully they will feel compelled to release some more of the interview. Alex Jones is the executive producer of the latest edition of Loose Change, thus disabling his ability to speak freely about the issue. Hopefully this and other reports will help get Barry Jennings to come out to the public as soon as possible.op-ed news

[ 24 June 2007: Message edited by: greencrow ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Phonz:

To answer your question, Phonz, there is no tipping point for this issue. Psychiatric labelling might potentially affect 40% of us (the estimated percentage of the population that suffers from "chemical imbalances") but that's just not going to do it. Start your own forum, but just go away. We're not interested. But, whatever you do, stay out of this thread that discusses the death of 3,000 USA citizens. They weren't psychiatrically labelled. Forget about it.

---

I don't really get what you're saying here. There is a body of literature on psychiatric abuse, psychiatry and women's issues, as well as on the homeless and mental illness. These are not ignored issues.

quote:

---

Originally posted by gram swaraj:
greencrow:
Just a format note - there's no need to sign off on every message with "regards, gc" or whatever. We can see who you are.

---

Actually, I prefer she sign off on each and every post, if it's all the same to you. Just for legal reasons, you know.

quote:

---

unionist-
You find the holes in the official 911 theory to be boring? I suppose a lot of others are like you too. Short attention span and dumbed down.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by greencrow:
Am I mistaken or is the topic of 9/11 a 'forbidden subject' on this forum?

Originally posted by rasmus:
You are mistaken, but I wish you weren't.

---

rasmus, no offence, but I have to ask you some routine questions:

1. Where were you on Sept. 10, 2001?

2. (a) When did you last travel to Germany, and (b) did you meet any foreign students while you were there?

3. Are you related to John Wilkes Booth or Lee Harvey Oswald?

Answers in the order you asked

1. Directly above the centre of the earth.

2a, Physically or metaphysically?
b, they are all foreigners over there!

3 Maybe, but only Mom knows for sure and she's admitting nothing to my father.

4 Depends on the number of beer I've consumed.

quote:

---

Originally posted by glasswares:
Am I on the no fly list now?

---

No shit!

But rasmus isn't off the hook yet.

Please remove all off topic posts from this thread.

Professional dysinfo agents don't have respect for the people who died on 9/11, because they love the agenda that 9/11 serves too much.

If this forum has any integrity, you'll remove the off topic posts from this thread and ban the posters.

Most forums now respect the topic of 9/11 and won't allow posters who wish to discuss this crucial event to be harrassed or belittled, or threatened.

Here is the warning at the top of the Progressive Independent 9/11 thread:

"Welcome to our 9-11 forum. Please note that this forum is a haven where people interested in alternative views of 9-11 can have their discussions in a calm, respectful environment free of disruption & belittling. If you can not refrain from using that tone when you disagree, please stick to our other forums. There are plenty of other sites where they allow, even encourage, that tone- just not here and not anywhere at PI. Thanks'

You might want to consider adopting a similar policy here. Thanks.

gc

[ 25 June 2007: Message edited by: greencrow ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by greencrow:
You might want to consider adopting a similar policy here.

---

It IS tempting to fight fire with fire...but I don't think that furthers the cause of bringing justice to the victims of 9/11.

quote:

---

Originally posted by greencrow:
dear moderator

Please remove all off topic posts from this thread.

Professional dysinfo agents don't have respect for the people who died on 9/11, because they love the agenda that 9/11 serves too much.

If this forum has any integrity, you'll remove the off topic posts from this thread and ban the posters.

Most forums now respect the topic of 9/11 and won't allow posters who wish to discuss this crucial event to be harrassed or belittled, or threatened.

Here is the warning at the top of the Progressive Independent 9/11 thread:

"Welcome to our 9-11 forum. Please note that this forum is a haven where people interested in alternative views of 9-11 can have their discussions in a calm, respectful environment free of disruption & belittling. If you can not refrain from using that tone when you disagree, please stick to our other forums. There are plenty of other sites where they allow, even encourage, that tone- just not here and not anywhere at PI. Thanks'

You might want to consider adopting a similar policy here. Thanks.

---

Uh, that would be no. That's not how it works around here. We've been here for 6 years, and have been developing our policy that whole time. It doesn't include deleting off-topic posts or banning people who disagree with other people.

Spending hours and hours researching and discussing 9/11 is a complete and utter waste of time (I know, I still don't have any answers!). Is it unimportant? NO. Is it unfair to the dead? Yes. But are you going to ever get the 'truth' out of the government officials who have done so much to obfuscate the issue? Not even close.

As Noam Chomsky says that 'it doesn't matter who's responsible for 9/11' (I find that a little glib, but the point is fair) because what happened after 9/11 is far more important. Despite other people's statements that the CIA had already removed the writ of Habeus Corpus (which is VERY true, watch the news this week), the difference now is, the government openly admits it. They've started spying without warrants, they 'out' people's wives who are undercover for disagreeing with their lies, they've started two wars, allowed other countries to intensify their wars or start new ones, propped up human rights ignoring dictators, been a bully on the world scene and frankly just have not been very polite!

The point that some people are making is true though, there has been a shift by some of the American population to 'accept' the dirtier side of their government actions (to defend 'OUR' Freedom) but none of these actions are new, they've been doing them all along just less publicly. The point Chomsky, many here, and myself are trying to make is, you're not going to ever have the answers to 9/11, if the US government did it, this has been one of the best cover-ups of all time and I'm assuming that Bush doesn't keep a 'September 11, 2001 cover-up - CONFIDENTIAL' file in his desk. If they were involved (and I whole heartedly believe they were) they certainly aren't going to be sitting around waiting for you to find that 'silver bullet', they're out there making sure that no truth is actually found.

Instead of spending so much time focussing on a single day, and a single event, start looking at the larger picture and you will see the pattern after 9/11 happening far before 9/11 in various different places (one of the best being South America in the 70's and specifically the 'school of the Americas'. In fact you can go back almost 200 years to the war of 1812 to find out that a number of the lobbyists pushing for war back then were (surprise, surprise!) Arms manufacturers and other suppliers of the grand war machine.

Not to diminish your interest in 9/11, as I think it's a good jumping off point to show unaware people the inconsistencies of governments, but once you notice it, stop spending your time there and start looking at the whole system that (as the last couple of weeks here have shown us) perpetuates a Sexist, Racist, Classist and Hegemonic system of control that has been in place for centuries.

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Originally posted by quelar:
Instead of spending so much time focussing on a single day, and a single event, start looking at the larger picture...

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Spending time posting on this topic doesn't mean one is blind to the larger context.

I don’t agree with Chomsky's claim, that it doesn’t matter who did it. We may never know the full truth, but exposing the lies will shake at least a few people awake, and make them face the "larger picture."

A big piece of that larger picture is how the MSM has become a well-oiled brainwashing machine.
It's full of apparent controversy, but it gives only token space for truly divergent voices and opinions.

[ 25 June 2007: Message edited by: gram swaraj ]

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Originally posted by gram swaraj:

Spending time posting on this topic doesn't mean one is blind to the larger context.

I don’t agree with Chomsky's claim, that it doesn’t matter who did it. We may never know the full truth, but exposing the lies will shake at least a few people awake, and make them face the "larger picture."

A big piece of that larger picture is how the MSM has become a well-oiled brainwashing machine.
It's full of apparent controversy, but it gives only token space for truly divergent voices and opinions.

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Yes you're right, I did state it's a helpful tool to exposing the larger picture.

As for the media, you've got to go all the way back to the formation of 'Mass Media' through the radio to find an honest mainstream media. Once Mass communication was available, the conglomerates comglomerated and left us with a handful of companies telling (not reporting to) us what happened, and telling us what's going to happen.

In my opinion that Sept. 11 was of far more significance than the "new" one.

BBC Sept 11
More Sept 11And More

Thanks particularly, Michelle, for your prompt reply to my request to moderate this thread and to discourage those who simply want to spam and use up the 100 or so posts allowed on each thread with useless dysinfo.

I find that when threads are tightly moderated, it very much improves the level of debate for those of us who participate on forums with the idea of sharing information on topics of importance to us.

I could have waited a decent amount of time before asking for a modification to forum policy but I thought, these types are on every forum, everyone knows what they're up to and everyone knows that tight moderation discourages them and immensely improves the quality of the discussion and therefore, the forum...so, you could say that I was attempting to be of assistance : )

That said, I hope everyone knows that the pursuit of truth and justice is NEVER a small or insignificant project. It is ALWAYS worthwhile on big and small matters. Chomsky says it doesn't 'matter' if we find out the truth about 9/11. Well, he has a reputation as a 'left wing gatekeeper' so what else would he say?

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Originally posted by greencrow:
Chomsky says it doesn't 'matter' if we find out the truth about 9/11. Well, he has a reputation as a 'left wing gatekeeper' so what else would he say?

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Michelle, would you please explain to this individual that this is a left-wing forum, and that red-baiting slanders like that are unlikely to win friends or influence people here?

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Originally posted by greencrow:
Chomsky says it doesn't 'matter' if we find out the truth about 9/11. Well, he has a reputation as a 'left wing gatekeeper' so what else would he say?

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I don't believe Chomsky is saying the truth doesn't matter. What he's saying is that pursuing 9-11 conspiracy theories will be a fruitless waste of time for the left. The hawks have far more blood on their hands than just 9-11. 9-11 conspiracy is a diversion that has been fomented and fueled by the right themselves. The Bush crime family should have been nailed for Iraqgate and the bombing of Yugoslavia and war on desperately poor people in Afghanistan.

9-11 is nothing compared to how many people in total the right has liquidated between the last century and now, and pales in comparison with the bombing of 21 countries since Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

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"No matter how paranoid or conspiracy-minded you are, what the government is actually doing is worse than you imagine" William Blum (Rogue State: A Guide to the World's Only Superpower)

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[ 25 June 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Originally posted by greencrow:
Chomsky says it doesn't 'matter' if we find out the truth about 9/11. Well, he has a reputation as a 'left wing gatekeeper' so what else would he say?

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