Interesting!

[ 08 May 2005: Message edited by: audra trower williams ]

{edited to add}

Wow. That thing would really give a lot of guys pause, I think. Just the idea of it, probably.

[ 08 May 2005: Message edited by: verbatim ]

The commercials are really strange, don't seem to say anything, and the interview has some weird stuff in it too.

quote:

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What do you think will be the consequences in the society if your protective device would be used by many, say thousands of women?

I believe that the awareness of rape would increase among women as well as men. People would discuss it more commonly. Women would compare the cost and the design of the protective device. Is this one efficient? When do you use yours? Men would joke or ask themselves when the time had come, does this chick wear it? Perhaps they would ask their girlfriends or wives if they had taken it out or not.

---

quote:

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What do you think people in general would think of your invention?

I would imagine that men could see this protective device both as something which creates anxiety and as an unparalleled aggression. Perhaps even more aggressive than rape. In my opinion, that would be strange per se, but I could imagine some people thinking that way. Other men might view it like: “Is this the way it is? If women can consider wearing such a protective device, they really must feel exposed”. Women might also react in different manners. Some women groups might think that: “After all, this isn’t necessary, I have never been raped and I don’t intend to become raped either”. On the other hand, other women groups may like this device a lot, they might find it both interesting and thrilling.

---

I really don't think (even if it is for real) it would do much for the rape issue. For one, I think by the time penetration has happened most of the damage has been done. Second, it doesn't do anything to protect the victim from a furious perpetrator, or a bunch of uninjured cohorts if it's a gang rape. Third, if (as the author envisions) it becomes common, wouldn't perpetrators just switch to anal rape?

Edited to add:

Actually in one of the sections there was something that made me think it was actually a thought experiment meant to increase rape awareness. That actually makes a lot of sense, but then in the interview section there's all this stuff about patents and stuff.

[ 08 May 2005: Message edited by: Anchoress ]

I can see it now. Some creep tries to rape you. He tries to shove himself inside you, meets up with that thing, gets his dick stabbed.

Then he bleeds inside you. Just what you want!

Then, this guy who has overpowered you realizes what has happened, becomes enraged, and beats you to a pulp. Or, better yet, pulls the thing out of you and starts stabbing YOU with it.

quote:

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Originally posted by Anchoress:
After perusing the website, I'm wondering if it's actually a joke?

---

According to the web site:

quote:

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The project Femdefence is an attempt to contribute to the debate on men’s sexual violence against women in society, using the esthetics of design, and the semiotics of marketing.

Femdefence is an on-going project first presented in 2003. The project includes the creation of an imaginary product, which bears the project’s name.

---

quote:

---

For one, I think by the time penetration has happened most of the damage has been done. Second, it doesn't do anything to protect the victim from a furious perpetrator, or a bunch of uninjured cohorts if it's a gang rape. Third, if (as the author envisions) it becomes common, wouldn't perpetrators just switch to anal rape?

---

That was my first thought too (well, it was my first practical thought, after I stopped laughing).

The horror of rape is having someone overwhelm you, violently. Before penetration, you are already in most basic fear for your life. You are afraid of suffocating. You are afraid of being dismembered. You are afraid of losing your sanity, having lost your agency. That's rape. Who cares about the pathetic penis?

Although, as Michelle reminds us, the pathetic penis may be the bearer of worse to come. (Pun unintended, but wasn't that lucky.)

One further thought: I believe it is true that in many (most? all?) ancient mythologies, there are stories about female-figures whose vaginas have teeth in them. I remember such especially in North American aboriginal fables, but I think that that has been a nearly universal male fantasy about women's sexuality -- that "succumbing" to sex with a woman may in fact be emasculating.

That must relate here -- not sure how ...

[ 08 May 2005: Message edited by: skdadl ]

quote:

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Hakuna Matata! What a wonderful phrase
Hakuna Matata! Ain't no passing craze

It means no worries for the rest of your days

It's our problem-free philosophy
Hakuna Matata!

---

Well, 'any' Resistance (To Rape)would seem to be the way to go...but, Michelle has pointed out the 'backfire' probabilities in her well thought out response, so there HAS to be better ways of 'Resistance' than that thing! Maybe to unleash a 'skunk smell' just before an attack? (of course you have 'live with that' AFTER...as well...)

I will confess that this thread has made me think a bit. I guess because, for so many years, I lived with a male protector, I stopped thinking about rape much. I mean, I never stopped being horrified at the idea that others might be raped, were being raped, but I had come to feel safe myself (partly because my life was so circumscribed), and so the threat was distanced.

Silly me. I think now about the title of this thread, and I realize that I do not believe that there is any effective defence against rape.

Well: women could just stay in all the time -- that would be a moderate defence (although don't forget home invasions). Women could live in groups, or they can live with fearsome male protectors (although don't forget home invasions).

Or we could bring up boys to think differently about what it means to overpower any other human being physically. We could do that. Not that we do, or are very likely to be able to in the foreseeable future.

quote:

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Originally posted by skdadl:
"Take Back the Night" marches are inspiring and I support them, but who out there is really willing to do that on her own on a daily/nightly basis?

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quote:

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If we don't go out after dark, then the rapists of the world have won

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I always hope for better. I always have faith in stronger, younger persons, women and men both. We must.

quote:

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Originally posted by skdadl:
I realize that I do not believe that there is any effective defence against rape.

Well: women could just stay in all the time -- that would be a moderate defence (although don't forget home invasions). Women could live in groups, or they can live with fearsome male protectors (although don't forget home invasions).

---

I don't think that would work, considering that from what I've heard, in most rapes women either know, or are intimate with, their assailants. I think that 85 year-old is more likely to be beaten and/or raped at home than in a dark alley, skdadl.

I am also not afraid to walk alone at night in the largest city in Canada, and I do so regularly. I've never taken a self-defence class, and I probably would be more scared if I'd had a scary experience like being mugged or assaulted alone at night. But I haven't been, so I'm not scared, and I therefore take the same view of the situation as mamitalinda. I've been treated far worse by men I've known than by strange men on the street. I think it would be sad indeed to feel like I can't enjoy the cool night air and see the lights and the interesting sights around me at night. On some of the worst dog days of summer, outdoors at night can be really satisfying, because you can go out in the heat without burning in 15 minutes from the sun, as I seem to do invariably no matter how much sunscreen I put on.

That reminds me. I was really happy to see on that video that it reflected that reality, that a woman is more likely to be assaulted by someone she knows than a stranger on the street, whether it's a casual date or a spouse.

[ 08 May 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]

P.S. Stargazer, I'm so sorry to hear that. That really sucks. Strength to you.

[ 08 May 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Bobolink:
...What disturbed me were the first two commercials, especially the first "Like getting drunk? Like wearing sexy clothes?". These come close to blaming the sexual assault on the victim.

---

My life path lead me to be acquainted with situations where women reported they had been sexually assaulted by cab drivers. The number of women that would report this was disconcerting. Their complaints were always treated with doubt because they had been drinking, their presentation was poor, and everyone thought they were after a quick buck from the company. I always believed that people don't lie about those things and my belief was reinforced over time because I saw legitimacy in the stories because there was a common theme.

ALL of these women had been out drinking and instead of CALLING a cab where there was a record of sending an ASSIGNED cab to pick someone of that first name up (That's how it works here I don't know elsewhere) they just exited the building and hailed the first cab. That meant there was no official record of the drive details kept other than a possible notation that that particular driver was working. These ladies got into the cab under the influence of alcohol with all of the accompanying deficits that that can bring around retention and recollection. The next day when they were reporting the incident they weren't able to say the cab number, give an adequate description, or really give the level of detail necessary. The cab company also had no record of them calling in for a cab and thus no tracking ability.

In all of the victims we ever dealt with not one single woman ever had called a cab using the free phones in the lobby of the establishment, her cell phone, or the pay phone. Every single one had just hailed a cab. That led me to the conclusion that they were deliberately recognized as more vulnerable by some predator who realized he was less likely to be traced given those circumstances.

On the small number of occasions when I've taken a cab I have always used my cell phone and called a member of my family or left a message on my answering machine saying the cab number I am in, where I am going, and if I can see the name of the driver on the card the driver.

I was thinking that something like this, were it real, could lead to assault charges against women. Men could claim that the women were out to hurt them and asked them to have sex in order to carry out some twisted sadistic act of maiming on them.

Well, if that were going to be the case, the 'h' with the 'prick-pricker' device, and let them get and register a gun-to stick in the rapists faces!

Of course this is based on the idea that the 'device' is REAL...(Rapes are real though-and so are guns.)

And, just because a "majority" of rapes are done by someone "that is known to the victim", don't be too quick to discount the 'Unknown' assailant.
(If one were to go by the majority of t.v. shows-of real cases-such as 'City Confidential' and American Justice', a VERY LARGE segment of their rapists' are either 'serial rapists', or 'unknown' assailants.)

I know that in Canada, Pepper Spray is illegal to use on humans...but, just the same, I think we should make an exception in women's cases! It can infuriate an attacker, but can also 'immobilize'(unlike the 'device') one at the same time.

(No, it's NOT a complete answer/protection, but, it's either that or get raped...you cannot all expect to be successful 'martial artists')

[ 08 May 2005: Message edited by: Denner ]

[ 08 May 2005: Message edited by: Denner ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Denner:

I know that in Canada, Pepper Spray is illegal to use on humans...but, just the same, I think we should make an exception in women's cases! It can infuriate an attacker, but can also 'immobilize'(unlike the 'device') one at the same time.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Denner:
I know that in Canada, Pepper Spray is illegal to use on humans...but, just the same, I think we should make an exception in women's cases!

---

"He came at me with this can of pepper spray, officer, but he missed me and in the struggle he dropped it. Luckily, I got hold of it and emptied it in his face."

[ 09 May 2005: Message edited by: writer ]

quote:

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Once again, guys come in to a sensitive feminism thread to talk shit and tell us goils how to handle ourselves. I don't need a self-defence course, pepper spray or Off to tell the last three posters that you are way out of your league here.

---

quote:

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I don't need a self-defence course, pepper spray or Off to tell the last three posters that you are way out of your league here.

---

See? It's right there. I'm tired of having to state the obvious, again, to sooth a sensitive man's soul. Downright bored.

You could add the word "some" to my first reference to guys if you really really need it, but I thought it was clear I was ...

... oh, blah blah blah. You know the drill.

[ 09 May 2005: Message edited by: writer ]

quote:

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Originally posted by audra trower williams:
Vagina Dentata.

---

The strategy of only women being concerned about violence against women has not proven effectual. I would think that some partnerships have to be formed.

quote:

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And I did keep it specific, by drawing from their feeble points and referring to the three of them.
Yeesh. You *do* appear to be sleepy-headed, there, dude.

---

Yes, well I'm having my period...Dude.

[ 09 May 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]

quote:

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Yes, well I'm having period...Dude

---

You're also having trouble with your grammar. Unusual for you. Please, do add that word some in the first sentence of my initial post here if you need it. Sorry that you took it as a universal. I guess I didn't feel I needed to spell it out, having later referred to the three posters and all. And so you misread it, just as I quickly conjured up the image of you squeezing out a big punctuation mark before going to sleep tonight because of your poor sentence structure. Painful!

Sorry also that the word dude upsets you so.

And Haily, my point is *not* that men have no place in this discussion. You'll notice I haven't objected to other men on this thread. I had problems with the three specific posts before my first, as I have noted several times now.

I find it very disappointing that threads like this in feminism are chronically raided by uninformed macho men telling us how to protect ourselves.

But it does seem that babble is now a goldmine for those who want to come in and thoughtlessly stir up trouble, just to stand back while progressives dive into the dust-up to bite each others' backs.

Must be quite the show for 'em.

[ 09 May 2005: Message edited by: writer ]

quote:

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You're also having trouble with your grammar. Unusual for you. Please, do add that word some in there if you need it. Sorry the word dude upsets you so.

---

quote:

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Yes, well I'm having my period...Dude.

---

I know you think I natter at you to be more polite but, surely, you know that's about one of the more inflammatorythings that you could say?

quote:

---

And Haily, my point is *not* that men have no place in this discussion. You'll notice I haven't objected to other men on this thread. I had problems with the three specific posts before my first, as I noted.

I find it very disappointing that threads like this in feminism are chronically raided by uninformed macho men telling us how to protect ourselves.

---

You and I are worlds apart on this issue. I don't mean that in a negative way, it's just a reality.

I honestly cannot imagine having the inner strength to be out alone without being afraid at night. I have very much given into all of my fears about "what if's". You've processed the risks differently.

[ 09 May 2005: Message edited by: writer ]

quote:

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I know you think I natter at you to be more polite but, surely, you know that's about one of the more inflammatorythings that you could say?

---

I know; I thought about it before posting it, but figured I'd go for inflammatory. I don't like being called dude. It's condescending and dismissive. It would be the same thing if I called you toots or darling. I think I've told you to fuck off a few times, but I've never been, you know...rude.

[ 09 May 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]

Yes, I for one came here hoping I could help-some-(yet knowing not all would heed all advice/suggestions)and I sure didn't want to cause a 'fight'(or thread drift)while making what I could think of as POSSIBLE solutions/suggestions. (for some defense against rapists)

I don't know how comparable/effective 'bug spray' would be to Pepper Spray in situations as crucial as Rape, but would believe almost ANY 'resistance' would be best....but hey, if my suggestions are not good enough...don't bother with them, plain and simple. Nobody is TELLING anyone what is best for them-heck, being a male, I for one would NOT know for sure how to cope against rapists, I only know how I would try to resist (as if anyone would want to rape an almost 70 year old GUY )-and resist I WOULD TRY!

And it may be wishful thinking on my part-but I hope we 'three guys' have done SOME good here-no matter how much or little!

Look-my GRANDMOTHER brought me up to RESPECT women, and I have NO USE for Rapists/or 'beaters'!(although I DO know the way some FEW women act at times, the urge to slap those few 'down' is almost irresistable to some men-and some men 'cannot/willnot' control their 'urges'!

However, 'urges' CAN be controlled-it takes will power...and 'REAL MEN' (and women) to control them!

(I'm almost sorry I started to try to help...almost-but not quite-it would take more than one 'dissenter'to 'shut me up'.)

Something else-my own AUNT was attacked-by a stranger, who dragged her into the bush, but was scared off by neighbours who heard the screams...so I have exactly NO sympathy for rapists/beaters at all....I now only think that if they DIED-the world would be a better place!
(Especially the 'serial/repeat' offenders!)

[ 09 May 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]

quote:

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although I DO know the way some FEW women act at times, the urge to slap those few 'down' is almost irresistable to some men

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quote:

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Has anyone ever told you that you're a bully?

---

I don't think that. I just think that she interprets men's advice on this issue differently and to be an example of chauvanism or parternalism and she's just responding based on that. She's not abusing anyone..or I don't think she is.

quote:

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I don't like being called dude. It's condescending and dismissive. It would be the same thing if I called you toots or darling. I think I've told you to fuck off a few times, but I've never been, you know...rude.

---

Alright I didn't realize that "dude" had a negative connotation to it. I don't use the word but, honestly, just because it would come out too awkwardly for me. Just not a word I could carry out very well. But, if it is equivalent to toots or darling or such then I can better understand. I hate it when older women call me "dear" or whatever.

Still, there has to be a way of communicating better than any of this.

Denner, I appreciate that any advice given was given with the right spirit. Everyone should be concerned about having a climate that does not tolerate rape.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hailey:

My life path lead me to be acquainted with situations where women reported they had been sexually assaulted by cab drivers. The number of women that would report this was disconcerting. Their complaints were always treated with doubt because they had been drinking, their presentation was poor, and everyone thought they were after a quick buck from the company.
[snip]
I had always assumed cabs were such a safe path home but my eyes were opened.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by writer:
[QB]I find it very disappointing that threads like this in feminism are chronically raided by uninformed macho men telling us how to protect ourselves.

---

As one of the accused Three, I am a little surprised to be called 'macho'-- I don't hear that very often. I'm not at all sure whether to be offended or not.

quote:

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Yeah, I don't like paternalistic advice. But how 'bout this maternalistic advice from a place called Candyland where, apparently, you have to be a rapist to get a cab license and only near-comatose drunk women use said cabs.

---

I always interpret advice as just something that is being offered to accomplish a common goal - making women safer. There are obviously a range of different perspectives as to how that is best accomplished and such. I am honestly amazed by the number of women here who feel that the night is still something they can enjoy. I don't think I'd ever have that inner strength. I don't think I ever lost the night, I never had it. I don't remember a time when I felt safe at night and I avoid being out alone except under very isolated circumstances

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hailey:

My life path lead me to be acquainted with situations where women reported they had been sexually assaulted by cab drivers. The number of women that would report this was disconcerting. Their complaints were always treated with doubt because they had been drinking, their presentation was poor, and everyone thought they were after a quick buck from the company.
ALL of these women had been out drinking and instead of CALLING a cab where there was a record of sending an ASSIGNED cab to pick someone of that first name up (That's how it works here I don't know elsewhere) they just exited the building and hailed the first cab. That meant there was no official record of the drive details kept other than a possible notation that that particular driver was working. These ladies got into the cab under the influence of alcohol with all of the accompanying deficits that that can bring around retention and recollection. The next day when they were reporting the incident they weren't able to say the cab number, give an adequate description, or really give the level of detail necessary. The cab company also had no record of them calling in for a cab and thus no tracking ability.

In all of the victims we ever dealt with not one single woman ever had called a cab using the free phones in the lobby of the establishment, her cell phone, or the pay phone. Every single one had just hailed a cab. That led me to the conclusion that they were deliberately recognized as more vulnerable by some predator who realized he was less likely to be traced given those circumstances.
.

---

Look through the smary passive aggressiveness and you can decode this into: "women who take cabs at night are drunken whores who deserve everything that happens to them and then try to defraud cab companies with false accusations."

Rhetorical question: How long would a poster with a male and/or aggressive persona last making remarks like this?

Oh, wait, s/he apologized! S/he didn't realize it would be considered offensive.

[ 09 May 2005: Message edited by: fern hill ]

I recognize that fear that Hailey has mentioned a few times - I've never felt it myself except 'second-hand' - it has never come to me by itself, there was always another woman who felt the need to remind me of it. It's to the point where I wonder if I'm normal because it didn't occur to me to feel afraid in the first place.

I'm just not afraid of taxi drivers.

I've been -- how can I put this? -- molested three times on the streets of Toronto since 1971, all three times in broad daylight, once with a lot of people around. One case was serious -- I managed to break away and run into traffic, which seemed to discourage my attacker. The other two were sudden gropings. In public. In daylight, and one at the bus stop at the corner of Bloor and Avenue Road.

quote:

---

their presentation was poor,

---

Is it just me, or did anyone else assume this meant "the way in which they presented their story of rape" instead of "the way they looked"

I know some people have it in for hailey but aside from that, its how I read it.

Edited to add
Stargazer I too was distressed to hear this and hope you were about to get the full weight of the law (such as it is) against the 'perp'

[ 09 May 2005: Message edited by: Bacchus ]

Yes, I agree with brebis noire when she says:

quote:

---

Originally posted by brebis noire:
I don't know if I was being clear in my previous post...I'm trying to convey a general sense of dismay about the whole issue, and to have the sense that you owe it to yourself to be afraid, en plus...it just annoys me that there is and always has been, danger.

---

And I agree with skdadl when she says she feels the fear because she's been molested. Hell, who hasn't been? I had a tit grabbed -- painfully -- as a teenager rode by me on the sidewalk in broad daylight. I was stunned. We've all been grabbed, groped, harrassed, etc. That's what it is about -- the patriarchy reinforcing the fear.

Hailey's invaluable contribution to this thread is "ooh, I don't go out, I'm too scared" then offers a "safety tip" about "ladies" "under the influence of alcohol" who wantonly get into cabs driven by rapists then yell rape and "everyone" thinks they're out to make a quick buck. Oh, but everyone doesn't include Hailey. No, she believes these poor deluded drunken ladies who merely had the poor judgement to hail a TAXI, not using FREE phones or THEIR cell phones (like we're issued with them) when they try to press their confused, mis-remembered tales of rape.

Hailey, as everyone here knows, is anti-feminist who takes any opportunity to smear women who have the temerity to WALK ALONE AT NIGHT or heavens, HAIL A TAXI LIKE A MAN, not phone for one in a ladylike manner.

Sorry about the caps. I'm geting carried away.

quote:

---

It's to the point where I wonder if I'm normal because it didn't occur to me to feel afraid in the first place.

---

I don't feel "the fear" either. I am aware of the dangers but I don't let the knowledge become fear. It drives my husband crazy, he's more afraid for me than I am for myself. He thinks I should be less aggressive if I am being harassed, and I have been antagonized more than a few times, usually in a crowded pub or bar. And I think it helps that I view the “attack” as antagonistic, I get pissed instead of scared. It doesn’t seem fair that I should have to cower in the face of someone else’s bad behavior.

I know that some of the guys who get nasty and aggressive when their “interests” aren’t returned just want to upset me and make me afraid by being hostile; I’m not playing their game and I am not going to feel guilty for being out in public and having a beer, that doesn’t make me fair game or mean I am looking to hook up. I’m also quite certain that these same type of guys would be just as ignorant if I hit on them and they found me wanting. And the random unsolicited grope, ugh, too many times to remember.

When it comes down to it I am perfectly willing and somewhat capable of physically defending myself. I spent a long time in my teens competing in martial arts, I know what it feels like to get slugged in the face and I know what it feels like to hit someone back. I have always played rough sports. I know enough to get away and leave a mark. I know enough to keep my eye on who is around and to take a cab instead of walking. I do the best to stay safe and be prepared in case it’s no longer safe. That’s all I can do.

quote:

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I interpreted 'present' as the retelling of the event the next day (with the haziness of booze clouding the memory etc). I didn't read any judgement into the post at all.

---

I’d agree with you except the following bit combined with most of the rest of the post left me feeling somewhat sour and I am predisposed to be suspicious of Hailey. But the possibility for misinterpretation of “out drinking and instead of CALLING a cab” could peeve a few people. It just sounds like the woman were at fault for not calling a cab, since everyone knows you should call a cab if you’re going to be out drunk and alone. Since when should calling a cab instead of hailing one be mandatory common sense for safety? Is there really a national epidemic of cab drivers attacking drunk women? Is it really a safety tip? What does it say about “cab drivers”, are they predisposed to attack drunk female fares? Who drives cabs? Cabs used to be a way to stay safe. Why add that some people believe these attacked women we’re looking for a quick buck? If it’s really just a safety tip, why confuse things?

quote:

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ALL of these women had been out drinking and instead of CALLING a cab where there was a record of sending an ASSIGNED cab to pick someone of that first name up (That's how it works here I don't know elsewhere) they just exited the building and hailed the first cab.

---

I think that most feminists here would say that a woman's "judgement," or attire, or behaviour, has nothing to do, logically, with the fact that a guy assaults her.

We have been taught to think that there is some connection, and of course the subtext is that it isn't just a logical connection: the woman somehow causes the assault on herself, she invites it, or she "deserves" it.

It would be a lot harder to present a case without a cab number, without specific knowledge of the cab, and without a paper record of the call and fare.

I don't think Hailey was suggesting it is the victim's fault, but rather identifying a risk that she had become aware of.

Then there's the story about the women in parking lots (I heard this one in Dallas): out shopping alone, they returned to their car rather late in the evening, the car was parked far away from the stores, of course, and the assailant was hiding underneath the car...he slashes her achilles' tendon and assaults/robs/rapes her....Maybe - maybe it happened once or twice, but it was blown out of proportion to the point where if you heard the story, you believed it was going to happen to you.

quote:

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I'm tired of these 'stories' or 'anecdotes' whose only purpose seems to be to make us afraid of getting out there, being seen and existing as persons.

---

quote:

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We have been taught to think that there is some connection, and of course the subtext is that it isn't just a logical connection: the woman somehow causes the assault on herself, she invites it, or she "deserves" it.

---

This should be repeated.

Consider that in my lifetime, i.e. not all that long ago, we had to enact a law to protect women from being attacked with their sexual history during a rape trial you’d think it wouldn’t be too hard to see how often the victim is blamed even today, even subtly. There are still people who think Tyson and Bryant are innocent and that the women were “whores” who just wanted a pay off.

Even smart people aren’t always that aware when it comes to rape that there is often a litany of things the woman could have done to avoid having been attacked. Always another rule, safety tip, etc., something the victim could, shoulda, woulda done. That’s blaming the victim. The victim will do enough of that herself.

The way I read it was, Hailey was talking about how, in her line of work, she has seen lots of women come to the hospital and claim they were raped by cab drivers after they were drinking, that they were doubted because of their appearance and the fact that they had been drinking (and come on people, we all know that happens to women when they say they've been raped - they're immediately judged by what they're wearing and whether they've been drinking). And that as a result of this, Hailey hasn't wanted to take taxis, and the precaution she takes is to call the cab company.

She told me something I didn't know at all. I never call cabs, I just hail them. Her post told me something that had never occurred to me before, that this was a possibly dangerous thing to do, and I thought it was interesting.

How could anyone possibly get the impression that she was BLAMING the women for being raped, or saying that they were not telling the truth? She was simply describing the phenomena that we all know about - how a woman who has been drinking or wearing skimpy clothing is often doubted. She didn't say that SHE doubted the women - the fact that she is now nervous about taking cabs and takes precautions and warned the rest of us about this potential danger should show that she BELIEVED the women in question.

Furthermore, she has posted quite a bit about the rapes and murders of prostitutes in her city, and deplored the fact that their cases aren't getting nearly the attention or priority from authorities that they would if they had been in any other profession. That sure as heck doesn't suggest to me that she is blaming the victim. She's offering a safety precaution that might not have occurred to people. It certainly has never occurred to me.

[ 09 May 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]

Don't Get Firewood or Water

Don't Survive a Natural Disaster

Don't Trust UN Peacekeepers

Don't Be a Military Conquest

Don't Go Outside During the Day

Don't Go Out At Night

Don't Stay Home

Don't Resist | Don't Be Passive

Don't Get Married / Co-habitate

Don't Be a Woman with DisAbilities

Become A Virtual Prisoner

Don't Be A Woman
... or Child

(edited to add links)

[ 09 May 2005: Message edited by: writer ]

quote:

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What the victim was doing or should have been doing is a non-starter, the rapist is the problem not the victim’s behavior.

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This is entirely true. Crime is the fault of criminals, not their victims.

It is, however, sometimes difficult not to wonder why victims didn't take their safety more seriously though, considering it's an obvious non-starter to expect the criminal to make that effort on the victim's behalf.

Rape crisis centres often publish safety tips. Are they blaming the victim too?

[ 09 May 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Michelle:

She told me something I didn't know at all. I never call cabs, I just hail them. Her post told me something that had never occurred to me before, that this was a possibly dangerous thing to do, and I thought it was interesting.
[ 09 May 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]

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Och, Michelle, of course it never occurred to you. You are sane and sensible and not flapped by spurious shite from the anti-feminist gang.

You live in Toronto right? Taxis in Toronto have cameras in them to protect the drivers. You hail cabs like everyone else, male and female, in cities. Or, you walk to a cab-stand (often in front of hospitals, large office buildings etc.). But in Candyland, only drunks, whores and feminists who think they're as good as men hail cabs, because everyone in Candyland knows that cab-drivers are rapists, right? Ladies in Candyland phone for a cab and wait indoors, possibly with protective males around, until it arrives.

The Womyn's Alliance

The Notre Dame/Saint Mary's Observer

The Forming Chronicle

NY1 News

Local London - CommuniGate

Women's Aid Organization

The North Wales Daily Post

Here on VIsland, I have never heard of a woman being raped who got into a cab. Nor have I heard of it in Vancouver, nor in any other community in BC. Not saying it has not happened of course, but if it has, it has not been made public in a broad way. Further, every cab I have ever hailed has always called in the pick up to the office. Even at 4am at the Vancouver airport bus loop as they were driving by and I hailed one. Let's be realistic, how many of you have ever heard of cabbies raping women on a steady basis ever before, Hailey's current mention of it? I have been in health care for 30 years, and I have not once heard about serial rapist cabbies nor of women trying to scam the company by false allegations.

The fact remains, more women are in danger at home, than they are in public. And those who would fearmonger about how it is women's conduct in any given situation, and/or their not providing/considering security for one's self is really blaming the victim. To further this by saying that there are women who make charges of rape to benefit from it is appalling.

How could anyone woman, who wants to live a normal non-fear driven life, prepare themselves for any given circumstance where a preditor may attack them? We would be walking around like cringing whipped dogs fearful of anything or anyone who came near us. In fact, we would be brainwashing ourselves into unrealistic and unsubstantiated fears. We would be living a shell of a life controlled by fear.

Personally, I would never do this to myself. And yes, I have been brutally raped. Actually, I was kidnapped off of a train by a man who I knew and trusted and taken to his farm, and who was about to kill me when his brother all of a sudden showed up and saved my life. This man had phoned my dad and told him I had called him and asked him to meet the train as he lived closer to the station. And he told me, when he flagged the train down, as it went passed his community, that dad had phoned him and asked him to pick me up, as he could not because of a family crisis. Now tell me, how I could've made myself more secure and safe?

However, I to this day refuse to be controlled by his actions and allow them to control me any further in my life by remaining fearful. As that is what it would be, allowing him to still assault me 30 years later by allowing fear to control me and what I do.

She didn't tell US not to go out or do anything. She didn't say that it was the woman's fault for dressing badly or for drinking. She didn't say it was the woman's fault for hailing a cab. She was just giving us a safety tip. And from the links Audra has posted, it looks like it's a good one.

quote:

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Originally posted by remind:
If one acts like a victim they will become a victim, if only of their own actions in perceiving the world as a place to be feared at all times.

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is much easier to interpret as "blaming the victim" than anything Hailey has written in this thread, although I know that remind didn't mean it that way.

One was a cabbie in London about 12yrs ago and he had a drunk woman from the clubs hail him in the wee hours and he screwed her at her place when dropping her off. He was quite proud of the fact "she was too drunk to know what she was doing" so I assume consent was not granted and he often talked about the 'opportunities' afforded him as a cabbie. I had heard he later wnet to jail for robbing customers though Im not sure, my association with him ended the nite I heard his tale.

The other were 2 turk brothers who shared a cab in toronto a few years ago and one told me of picking up this totally high hooker in Parkdale and how he just parked in a place and when she got out he bent her over the hood and banged her while she said "what are you doing, I dont want that etc" and then left her there in the parking lot.

I went back and re-read Hailey's post, and tried to do so, in the light that you and audra have pointed out. That she was giving a tip on how better to protect ourselves as women. And I do see that she was saying that, and using the conditon of the women to point out a select portion was being actively targeted or strolled for.

What really impacted me for the long haul, other than hating him, was the fact that I was told, and made, to shut up about it happening, as "my family still had to live in the community."

Rape at that time was felt to be the woman's fault of course. And I am a tad sensitive to anything that suggests, or might suggest this.

There was actually a benefit to me from it happening though. As strange as that may seem. I was compelled to re-establish my power over my life, and so I chose to live life to the fullest extent that I could, and to take every opportunity that passed my way, as it could be the only chance I had to do so. As such, I believe I have experienced more of life than I would have, if not for that horrible 3 day period of believing that I would never escape alive.

And what is sad for me is that I raised my daughter to be empowered, to be cautious, and she took karate for years. All to prevent something this from happening to her too. It made no difference. When at a party of friends with whom she had gone to school with for years, someone who she also knew and trusted slipped a drug into her drink and then lured her away from her friends in order to assault her.

I have no problem believing that it happens, but I also have no problem believing it's an under-reported crime.

And now, I close this 100 post thread.