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Author Topic: Georgian cock-up in the Caucasus Part VIII
N.Beltov
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posted 14 August 2008 09:32 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here is Part VII.

I've been reading a blog by a self-described Russian White Guard Monarchist and she's got some rather entertaining remarks. Here are some choice morsels. Enjoy. link

quote:
Bush and Rice are blathering about “isolating” Russia and their British poodle yipped up as well. Hmm… Germany, France, Italy, Slovakia, Turkey, China, Japan, India, and Iran, amongst others, beg to differ. The US talks big of expelling Russia from international organisations; yet, Russia is not concerned, as they know that their friends in the West shall support them.

Advice to Bush and Rice:

SHUT UP.

All that is happening is that they are making the US look ridiculous and foolhardy. Of course, this is an outcome that Russia is willing to take to the bank. Bush is making one empty threat after another, reducing the credibility of the USA with each one. The next president of the US is going to have a great stench in the barnyard left by King George, Sir Richard, and Lady Condi, and he is going to have to pull on his wellies to muck out the byre to get relations back to normal.


By the way, here is a longer article on the many countries siding with Russia on South Ossetia.

The geo-political gamble by the US and its client state has utterly backfired. And Saakashvili may yet have his day in the dock.

[ 14 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 14 August 2008 09:46 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
From Sven:
quote:
In other words, Russia can do whatever the fuck it wants because it’s all the USA’s fault.

Yes. Because the USA made a mockery of international law. So what rules now apply to the conduct of the Russians? What restraints apply? In terms of international law, very few as international law has been reduced to an international joke by the conduct of the USA.

quote:
When it comes to the invasion of Iraq in 2003, the answer is ... no, yes, no.

Here is the New York Times editorial from March 9, 2003, ten days before the invasion of Iraq. "If it comes down to a question of yes or no to invasion without broad international support, our answer is no." I note this in order to dispel the myth that the entire journalistic establishment was/is in favour of all US government actions.



As was pointed out by Contriana, that was one opinion piece, and hardly a condemnation, among a tidal wave of support and drum beating for war from the NYT.

But it does provide a wonderful excerpt for the purpose of my discussion with Sven:

quote:
it (the USA) needs to demonstrate by example that there are certain rules that everybody has to follow, one of the most important of which is that you do not invade another country for any but the most compelling of reasons

And in fact, it demonstrated the complete opposite. So on what basis is the Russian response to Georgia's invasion to be tempered?

From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Sven
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posted 14 August 2008 09:52 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Notably missing from the list of countries supposedly supporting Russia is Sweden:

quote:

Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt likened Putin's rationale for the invasion of Georgia to the thinking of Serbia's Slobodan Milosevic -- and to a certain well-known 20th century German politician. "We have reason to remember how Hitler used this very doctrine little more than half a century ago to undermine and attack substantial parts of central Europe," Bildt said after a visit to Georgia on Monday. "No state has a right to intervene militarily in the territory of another state simply because there are individuals there with a passport issued by that state or who are nationals of that state."

Also missing from that list:

quote:

On Tuesday, five heads of state from nations once controlled by the Soviet Union -- Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Ukraine and Poland -- arrived at a rally in Tbilisi to rebuke Russia for its invasion of the Central Asian country.

[snip]

"Old Europe isn't listening to Poles, Lithuanians and Ukrainians. Old Europe doesn't want to anger Russia, and doesn't see the integrity of Georgia's borders as something worth risking its relationship with Moscow over," the left-leaning daily Gazeta Wyborcza wrote.


But, no, it’s all about the United States and George Bush and woodsheds.


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 14 August 2008 09:56 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Russians will use Article 51 of the UN Charter to substantiate their actions. It is the right to self-defense and so on. Let those who think people under attack should lie down and die make their odious case themselves.

The de facto independence of South Ossetia and Abkhazia may become de jure. It's about time.

Saakashvili will be lucky if he avoids the dock or the fate typical for tyrants that blacken the name of their own country to the world with attacks on civilian populations. Uncle Sam may retire him to a liberal arts college in New England if they can find one dumb enough to take him.

And speaking of Uncle Sam ... he will swagger, bluster, and possibly attack some small defenseless country himself to sooth his bruised ego.

Let's hope he doesn't blame Canada. I think we should be OK. The seal pup in 24 Sussex Drive should be yelping the same tune that the poodle at 10 Downing Street is currently yapping.

[ 14 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sven
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posted 14 August 2008 10:01 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
Yes. Because the USA made a mockery of international law. So what rules now apply to the conduct of the Russians? What restraints apply? In terms of international law, very few as international law has been reduced to an international joke by the conduct of the USA.

So what, exactly, are you advocating happens with regard to what’s going on in Georgia?

If you think Russia is acting in good faith, then why don’t you just say you support what Russia is doing?

If not, why can’t you criticize both Russia and America?


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 14 August 2008 10:04 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There have now been SIX threads started in about two days - all by Beltov, all devoted to rah-rah-rah for Russia and Putin and each one is about 90% composed of endless Beltov posts that are mostly direct quotes from Russian media and propaganda outlets.

If only someone would start as many threads about Chechnya or about Kashmir???

Why bother? Any of us can go to the website of the Russian News Agency and get all the unquestioning pro-Russian spin we want. Or better yet, why not start a blog entirely devoted to extolling the virtues of mother Russia and her great contribution to world peace?


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N.Beltov
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posted 14 August 2008 10:06 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Did any of those countries express an iota of concern for the slaughter in Ossetia, Sven? Or were they, in fact, part of the OSCE contingent that vanished when the Georgian peacekeepers slipped away and the Georgian troops opened fire on civilians and Russian peacekeepers?

The Baltic states can be expected to line up like good trained seals. They've got their own domestic audience and history to think about. Same with the Poles, for that matter. The key global allies of the US, however, have told the US to get stuffed.

Politely, of course. Ha ha.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
contrarianna
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posted 14 August 2008 10:07 AM      Profile for contrarianna     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sven:
Notably missing from the list of countries supposedly supporting Russia is Sweden:

quote:
Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt likened Putin's rationale for the invasion of Georgia to the thinking of Serbia's Slobodan Milosevic -- and to a certain well-known 20th century German politician. "We have reason to remember how Hitler used this very doctrine little more than half a century ago to undermine and attack substantial parts of central Europe," Bildt said after a visit to Georgia on Monday. "No state has a right to intervene militarily in the territory of another state simply because there are individuals there with a passport issued by that state or who are nationals of that state."

But, no, it’s all about the United States and George Bush and woodsheds.


Bildt's nonaligned non-interventionist concern is indeed touching:
"Bildt has also been questioned for his role as a member of the International Advisory Council of the Committee for the Liberation of Iraq, a group with ties to the Bush administration pushing for an invasion of Iraq in 2003."


From: here to inanity | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
guy cybershy
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posted 14 August 2008 10:09 AM      Profile for guy cybershy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wag the dog; faked pictures from the war zone:

http://byzantinesacredart.com/blog/2008/08/deceiving_the_world_with_pictu.html


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Sven
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posted 14 August 2008 10:14 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:
The Baltic states can be expected to line up like good trained seals. They've got their own domestic audience and history to think about. Same with the Poles, for that matter.

Right. The views of countries that actually suffered under the yoke of Moscow are irrelevant.


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 14 August 2008 10:16 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I apologize for giving the US cheerleaders such a thumping. If they are having such a difficult time working their way out of the wet paper bag they've found themselves trapped in, it hardly seems fair to blame others.

Frankly, I'm glad to see the big bear do something good for a change. I knew he had it in him. And you can bet that seeing Uncle Same with his pants around his ankles is going to warm the hearts of victims of that global juggernaut around the world, and embolden them, and maybe send the troops of that country packing.

The Russians will leave on their own accord, God willing. They have already handed over Gori to the Georgian police and more will follow. And winter is coming, and I've been told that bears like to hibernate. The Ossetians and Abkhazians will not, I think, forget the kindness shown by that old bear. The animals in the forest will talk.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 14 August 2008 10:23 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The Baltic states can be expected to line up like good trained seals. They've got their own domestic audience and history to think about. Same with the Poles, for that matter.

What do you expect? These are countries that were colonized by Russia over a 50 year-plus period, saw all their leaders massacred, in the case of the Baltic states, their languages and culture were suppressed and Russia blatantly tried to move as many ethnic Russians as possible in to try to assimilate the and demographically overwhelm the local populations.

Were you expecting them to express gratitude to Russia for all these horrors?

I have never in my life met anyone from any country in eastern Europe or the Baltic states who doesn't absolutely loathe Russia for all the crimes against humanity they committed.


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It's Me D
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posted 14 August 2008 10:26 AM      Profile for It's Me D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Beltov: Having been very active in the first thread I haven't had the time to devote since Friday; I wanted to say that I have appreciated your efforts in keeping the threads going even if they have devolved somewhat into the usual baiting and bashing.

Sven: You're certainly full of fiery condemnations against Russia that sound like they've come straight out of the cold war but how much do you actually know about Russian internal politics? You obviously don't like the state of affairs there, or their government so I have to ask what you'd like to see in Russia... As a strong supporter of a dissident movement in Russia I know a fair bit on the subject; I think it is important that, if you are so evidently concerned for the state of Russian "democracy" that you fill us in on where you stand. If the Russian administration fails to meet your "leftist" criteria I'd like to know who makes the grade amongst the opposition? Or do you simply feel that Russians are inherently undemocratic and evil across the board?


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RosaL
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posted 14 August 2008 10:28 AM      Profile for RosaL     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sen. John McCain:

quote:
I want to have a dialogue with the Russians. I want them to get out of Georgian territory as quickly as possible. And I am interested in good relations between the United States and Russia. But in the twenty-first century, nations don’t invade other nations.

My apologies if someone has already posted this.


From: the underclass | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 14 August 2008 10:29 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I for one would like to see Russia elect a moderate social democratic government that wants to expand the welfare state, improve health care and education, do something about social conditions and the incredible concentration of wealth, disarm and demilitarize as much as possible and stop interfering in the affairs of other countries and have as low a profile in global affairs as possible.

I'd like Russia to be like Sweden only bigger.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
KenS
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posted 14 August 2008 10:29 AM      Profile for KenS     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The apologetic for the Georgian attack is now, I think, shifting gears and blathering about the territorial integrity of Georgia. What they mean is the right of Georgia to march into Ossetia and Abkhazia with impunity and do what the hell they like. We saw this past weekend what that entailed.
I think the Russians are wise to say that they will respect the wishes of the Ossetians and Abkhazians, whatever they are. So far, although the Russian government has given many, even most, Ossetians Russians passports, they have been careful not to annex Ossetia or Abkhazia. That's the right way to go for a peacekeeper/peacemaker. Let the locals decide their own fate.

The orgy of aplogia for Georgia requires only some pretty simple critique- it does not require being an overboard apologist for Russia as an antidote. [And for what it is worth, that apology for Georgia has not shifted. Not to mention the territorial integrity and security concerns of the Gerogian people do also have legitimacy- they just don’t give Georgia or the US a right to use them as a justification for anything.]

Giving credit to Russia for respecting the wishes of Ossetians and Abkhazians ‘whatever they are’ is funny. That’s like the US saying they will respect what Gerogians want ‘whatever that is’: easy to do when you know what Georgians want is to kick Russian butt however they can. Russia supports the aspirations of these folks when it happens to conform with their power games, and uses the iron fist when it doesn’t conform.

And giving credit to them for not annexing the territories is REALLY funny. Such a sacrifice. Actual control is what matters. Russia even provides most of the revenue for the Republic of south Ossetia. What good would annexing do them?

Your admiration for Russia and the trust you give to its statement of intentions is embarrasing to watch.

quote:
What I see the Russians doing is to retreat back to simply protecting the Ossetians and Abkhazians and keeping some adjacent territory as a bargaining chip and as a way to ensure no more Georgian atrocities take place. As the situation improves, the Russians can abandon the territory, as they have with Gori for example, once the ability of the Georgians to carry out further atrocities is taken away. Simple, but effective.
The Georgians are still, according to reports, directing sniper fire at Ossetia. Looting is also being reported, although I must add that looters are being summarily executed according to one report I read. I can't say I feel sorry for the looters. If you're going to behave like that in wartime, and take advantage of thousands of refugees, a bullet is what you deserve anyway.

The Georgians, “according to reports, ” are still directing sniper fire at Ossetia. But you believe everything the Russians say about how moderated their response and their intentions.

Russia is drawing out its presence in and around Gori as long as it feels like. And its columns continue to appear everywhere at will, and leave, and maybe come back. Given that they completely control the military situation they don’t have to fire a single shot or explicitly occupy any territory to exert and extend the iron fist. It’s more than formalism to call that ‘restrained’.

A little random sniper fire is what you expect from isolated elements of the losers- if even that much is happening.

I’m not for a minute going to suggest that Georgians are not a potential threat to the life and liberty of Ossetians. And we will see what atrocities did or did not happen. But your repeating of what the Russian media serves up is highly suspect and serves an immediate propoganda interest [ie, it has a propoganda effect now, regardless of what turns out to be the truth.

Human Rights Watch has been in and around the Ossetian capital for several days now- and the Russian and local authorities have had plenty of time to show them evidence of the atrocities you speak of. They have seen nothing. They do speak of lots of wanton destruction of civilian communities- Ossetian and Georgian- but with numbers of people killed, all around, in the hundreds.

It is worth also worth noting that there were before recent hostilities far more ethnic Georgian refugees than Ossetians, there are also likely to be more new Georgian refugees as the outcome of recent hostilities even with the Georgian bombardment of the Ossetian capital, and there are the ominous expectations of what comes next.

Before the breakup of the Soviet Union Ossetians were the majority in South Ossetia, but they did not predominate as they did in North Ossetia. And there are still big areas of the administrative region that are mostly Georgian- especially the eastern third and the villages surrounding the capital that have been ravaged and destroyed in retaliation in the last week. Russia has not protected Gerogians, and what do you suppose will happen now that Russia has a free hand to complete the de facto absorption of South Ossetia?

Much of the blame for the plight of those Georgians should be laid at the feet of their demagogic leaders- and the recent refugees are an inevitable consequence of the current demagogues adventure unleashed last week. But it is one sided apologia to talk look only of killing and suffering inflicted by Georgians- much less pass on as gospel Russian reports of atrocities hot off the presses.

[ 14 August 2008: Message edited by: KenS ]


From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 14 August 2008 10:29 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by guy cybershy:
Wag the dog; faked pictures from the war zone:
Wow, and Reuters appears to be right in on it.

From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 14 August 2008 10:30 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm sure you could fill a thread, or maybe ten of them, with descriptions of such crimes. But why is it that you are unable to acknowledge what's going on right now? Why is it so difficult to acknowledge that the Russians did the right thing here? Why refuse to even consider what happened to the Ossetians?

Cohen is right. The anti-Russian fatwa explains a great deal. But the reverse iron curtain that he spoke of has taken a great blow to the head from which it may not recover. And the Republican candidate just lost a tool in his arsenal for the November election. That's a good thing in my books.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 14 August 2008 10:32 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
here we go about "fatwas" (sic.) again. you have been warned about this before.
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 14 August 2008 10:37 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
remind: Wow, and Reuters appears to be right in on it.

We covered that, days ago, in one of these threads. Cueball eviscerated the arguments used to justify the use of such photos. There was the usual wailing and yelling to follow.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 14 August 2008 10:39 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Stockholm: here we go about "fatwas" (sic.) again. you have been warned about this before.

No, company man. You have been warned about it.

Did you want fries with that can of whup ass?


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Stockholm
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posted 14 August 2008 10:44 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You're very funny...
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
It's Me D
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posted 14 August 2008 10:52 AM      Profile for It's Me D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I for one would like to see Russia elect a moderate social democratic government that wants to expand the welfare state, improve health care and education, do something about social conditions and the incredible concentration of wealth, disarm and demilitarize as much as possible and stop interfering in the affairs of other countries and have as low a profile in global affairs as possible.

I'd like Russia to be like Sweden only bigger.


Thanks for answering my question Stockholm; although directed at Sven I'm certainly interested in anyone's answer.

As for that answer, which certainly many would find laudable: You are presumably aware that no such political party (moderate social democrat) exists in Russia. To what would you attribute this lack? Do you believe that if given the option your preferred Russia is also the Russia that most of its own citizen's would choose?


From: Parrsboro, NS | Registered: Apr 2008  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
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posted 14 August 2008 10:57 AM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Gee just the kind of government I would accept as a vast improvement in Canada. Unfortunately we got toadie Steven and All Hail Pax Americana.
From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 14 August 2008 10:59 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Apparently the Georgians specially targeted churches in their bombardment, knowing the Ossetians would hide there.

"The Chief Priest of the Province, Father Georgy ???, says 60% of his parishioners were killed."

Many of them were hiding in the churches. Maybe the Georgians were just saving funeral expenses by killing civilians right in the churches?

1920, 1991, 2004 and now 2008. Four attempts to wipe out the Ossetians by Georgia. Will the former finally get their independence or suffer another such attempted genocide?


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
RosaL
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posted 14 August 2008 11:00 AM      Profile for RosaL     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The entire world, except for Americans, knows that the outbreak of armed conflict between Russian and Georgian forces in South Ossetia was entirely due to the US and its Georgia puppet, Saakashvili. Americans, alone in the world, are unaware that the hostilities were initiated by Saakashvili, because Bush, Cheney and the Israeli-occupied American media have again lied to them.

Everyone else in the world knows that the unstable and corrupt Saakashvili, who proclaims democracy and runs a police state, would not have taken on Russia by attacking South Ossetia unless given the go-ahead by Washington.

The purpose of the Georgian attack on the Russian population of South Ossetia is twofold:

To convince Europeans that their action in delaying Georgia’s NATO membership is the cause of “the Russian aggression” and that to save Georgia from conquest Georgia must be given NATO membership.

To ethnically cleanse South Ossetia of its Russian population. Two thousand Russian civilians were targeted and killed by the US-equipped and trained Georgian Army, and tens of thousands fled into Russia. Having achieved this goal, Saakashvili and his puppet-masters in Washington quickly called for a cease fire and a halt to “the Russian invasion.” The hope is that the Russian population will be afraid to return or can be prevented from returning, thus removing the secessionist threat.


Paul Craig Roberts


From: the underclass | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 14 August 2008 11:07 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The US is sending cargo planes full of aid to Georgia and the Russian military is questioning the nature of the cargo. Could be that the US is still up to mischief.

quote:
U.S. military transport aircraft are reported to have been airlifting some humanitarian cargoes to Tbilisi airport. Two days ago, reports said we had destroyed the airport," (said a member of the Russian General Staff)

Must have been all that excellent US help. I wonder if the US will send any aid to the Ossetians? Gravestones, perhaps? Body bags?


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
RosaL
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posted 14 August 2008 11:08 AM      Profile for RosaL     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
"I must tell you that I am deeply troubled by a notion I see developing in Russia, and that is a notion that Russia somehow has a say or some control over countries outside of its borders," Harper said at press conference in Cupids, NL.

I scarcely know where to begin ....


From: the underclass | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 14 August 2008 11:13 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, the seal pup at 24 Sussex is saying what he thinks are the right things. He doesn't want a clubbing from an angry Uncle Sam looking for fresh targets. Liberal and NDP aspirants for the same address take note.

Remember what happened right after all those US Marines were killed in Lebanon? They invaded tiny Grenada, killed the President Maurice Bishop, and installed a puppet regime. That puppet regime, later that year, had the dubious distinction of being the only country in the world to vote with the US opposing a resolution on the banning of the militarization of outer space.

Who knew a US invasion could bring such a quick development in the Grenada space program?

ahahahahahahahahahaha

[ 14 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 14 August 2008 11:20 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Still waiting for Sven to answer answer my question to him regarding how he feels about the USA's cupability in this?
From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 14 August 2008 11:26 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
"I must tell you that I am deeply troubled by a notion I see developing in Russia, and that is a notion that Russia somehow has a say or some control over countries outside of its borders," Harper said at press conference in Cupids, NL.

In this instance i have to agree with Harper. Russia should not have any say or influence on what happens outside of its own borders. I would say the same for the US.

two wrongs don't make a right. Just because the US invades Iraq, doesn't suddenly give Russia carte blanche to start wantonly invading other countries either.


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unionist
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posted 14 August 2008 11:41 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
In this instance i have to agree with Harper.

Just thought that was worth quoting.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 14 August 2008 11:41 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So what, exactly, are you advocating happens with regard to what’s going on in Georgia?


I'm not advocating anything. What are you advocating?
quote:

If you think Russia is acting in good faith, then why don’t you just say you support what Russia is doing?

You are attempting to put words in my mouth. That is shameful behaviour. What I am saying is that Russia is following international behavior normalized by your country.
quote:

If not, why can’t you criticize both Russia and America?

I routinely do. Why can't you?

quote:
"I must tell you that I am deeply troubled by a notion I see developing in Russia, and that is a notion that Russia somehow has a say or some control over countries outside of its borders," Harper said at press conference in Cupids, NL.

In this instance i have to agree with Harper.



Yeah, no kidding. Perhaps Harper's sudden concern for borders and security would mean much more if he maintained that same position with regard to Iraq, Kosovo. Haiti, and Lebanon. As it is, he is just another conservative hypocrite.

[ 14 August 2008: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
writer
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posted 14 August 2008 11:47 AM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Um, we have our own military / police meddling in other countries to answer for. Far far away from our own borders.

Logs, eyes, and all of that.

To truly mangle the teachings I was raised with, I'm seeing lots of delicate glass houses and many sturdy stones being thrown by self-righteous, arrogant, blow-hard men who seem to be astoundingly unaware of the shattered structures behind them, which they feel they are defending - broken and revealed by their own stupid words.

Stupid because of the bracing hypocrisy of it all.


From: tentative | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sven
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posted 14 August 2008 11:47 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
Still waiting for Sven to answer answer my question to him regarding how he feels about the USA's cupability in this?

Well, let’s review the questions:

At 7:08am (Babble Time), Sven asked remind:

quote:
Originally posted by the Svenmeister:
What do you think about Russia’s actions in Georgia?

Later, after avoiding a direct answer to my question, at 8:18am (Babble Time), remind asked Sven:

quote:
Originally posted by remind:
I got a question for Sven, what do you think about the USA's serious cupability in what is going on?

You get my answer when I get your answer…


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Sven
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posted 14 August 2008 11:52 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
I'm not advocating anything.

And that’s kinda my point.

You greet Russia’s actions with...

...silence.

(other than criticism of the USA, of course)


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
RosaL
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posted 14 August 2008 11:57 AM      Profile for RosaL     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sven:

And that’s kinda my point.

You greet Russia’s actions with...

...silence.

(other than criticism of the USA, of course)


I don't like the government of Russia. But in this particular case, I don't see a whole lot to criticize. It seems that Georgia acted first for reasons described earlier and that the presence of Russian troops was welcomed by South Ossetians. I also don't see how Russia can be expected not to try to counter NATO/American "encirclement".

What I find interesting in all this is what it seems to show about the decline of the American imperium and the rise of new power configurations.

[ 14 August 2008: Message edited by: RosaL ]


From: the underclass | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 14 August 2008 12:04 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And that’s kinda my point.

You greet Russia’s actions with...

...silence.



Actually, it hasn't been your point. Your point has been to try and get babblers wringing their hands over Russia's action in Georgia as though we were all Fox News analysts.

Frankly, what is going on in Georgia is still a good natured barn dance compared to Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, and Sudan. Even more than that, it is quite possible that Mikaile took one for the neo-con team because while the whole world has been busy flipping between the Olympics and cable news coverage of Georgia, Pakistan has been descending into hell.

And where is Stephen Harper's concern over the possibility of an even wider regional war that could engulf the entire sub-continent? Oh, yeah, he supports the politics behind that murderous plot.


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
ceti
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posted 14 August 2008 12:09 PM      Profile for ceti     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Uh, yeah... The Georgians gave Russia Stalin, so one could argue that the Russians should take Shaakasvili out to prevent a reoccurrence of another Caucasian despot.

Seriously though, the Russians are well within their purview to hit back at the repeated provocations and encirclement by the US. The US has broken every agreement since the fall of the Soviet Union (non-expansion of NATO, ABM Treaty, etc.) so why should they care what the US thinks? I'm simply ashamed at all the lackeyism in the West, as if we haven't learned a thing from the inter-imperialist rivalries of the last two centuries.

Then again, the colonial mindset is being increasingly shoved down Canadians' throats since Harper came along, so no surprises that even self-proclaimed lefties will side with their overlords.


From: various musings before the revolution | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
HUAC
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posted 14 August 2008 12:11 PM      Profile for HUAC   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
I for one would like to see Russia elect a moderate social democratic government that wants to expand the welfare state, improve health care and education, do something about social conditions and the incredible concentration of wealth, disarm and demilitarize as much as possible and stop interfering in the affairs of other countries and have as low a profile in global affairs as possible.

I'd like Russia to be like Sweden only bigger.


Substitute USA for Russia and Cuba for Sweden, et voila! Hot damn, there may be hope after all, by crackie.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Aug 2007  |  IP: Logged
A_J
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posted 14 August 2008 12:14 PM      Profile for A_J     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by guy cybershy:
Wag the dog; faked pictures from the war zone

Faked pictures do happen all of the time now that photoshopping is so easy to do, but this is really lame.

Photo 1 - big deal, Reuters got their caption wrong. Are you trying to say that it's no big deal if the subject of the picture is "only" bloodied and injured?

Photo 2 - perspective? How do you know it was taken later?

Photos 3 and 4 - old people are trying to move their deceased son, and being feable have little luck. I'm shocked.

Seriously, if this is the only evidence out there of faked photos, it is staggeringly weak.

[ 14 August 2008: Message edited by: A_J ]


From: * | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 14 August 2008 12:17 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Stockholm: two wrongs don't make a right.

Bingo. Gotcha. So the Russians were wrong to defend the Ossetians, wrong to fight back, wrong to drive the Georgians out of the areas where they could continue to do harm. They're wrong to make sure that the Georgians can't do the same again by destroying equipment adjacent to Ossetia. They're wrong to help out the Abkhazians as well, or prevent a slaughter there that already happened in Ossetia.

This is the "the Russians and the Ossetians should have laid down and died" school of thought.

Thanks for sharing, though I really think that the self-evident monstrosity of such views is apparent even to a child. No wonder you mostly just snipe and whine about the Rooskies. The real meat of your argument turns out to be the worst sort of offal. I'd be hiding it if I were you as well.

quote:
Stockholm: In this instance i have to agree with Harper.

Now you're being funny. There's no need to type "in this instance".


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 14 August 2008 12:20 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
I for one would like to see Russia elect a moderate social democratic government that wants to expand the welfare state, improve health care and education, do something about social conditions and the incredible concentration of wealth, disarm and demilitarize as much as possible and stop interfering in the affairs of other countries and have as low a profile in global affairs as possible.

I'd like Russia to be like Sweden only bigger.


And wouldn't you know it - that's exactly what George W. Bush wants as well. Who'da thunk?

From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
A_J
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posted 14 August 2008 12:26 PM      Profile for A_J     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:
Bingo. Gotcha. So the Russians were wrong to defend the Ossetians, wrong to fight back, wrong to drive the Georgians out of the areas where they could continue to do harm. They're wrong to make sure that the Georgians can't do the same again by destroying equipment adjacent to Ossetia. They're wrong to help out the Abkhazians as well, or prevent a slaughter there that already happened in Ossetia.
Alternately:
quote:
Bingo. Gotcha. So the Americans were wrong to defend the Kurds, wrong to fight back, wrong to drive the Ba'athists out of the areas where they could continue to do harm. They're wrong to make sure that the Ba'athists can't do the same again by removing them from power. They're wrong to help out the Shi'ites as well, or prevent a slaughter there that already happened in Iraqi Kurdistan

[ 14 August 2008: Message edited by: A_J ]


From: * | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 14 August 2008 12:33 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Americans, in the first invasion of Iraq, left the Kurds to their fate after encouraging them to rebel against Saddam Hussein. That's pretty pathetic using such an example.

Of course, the occupier of Iraq bears the most responsibility for the fratricidal conflict that goes on under their authority.

Good grief, doesn't the right have anything better than this? How's that wet paper bag doing anyway? Have you left a grubby hand print on it yet?


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 14 August 2008 12:37 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Can I also safely assume that you also belong to the "the Russians and Ossetians should have laid down and died" school of thought?

Or aren't you telling? Maybe we can discuss the Roman-Carthaginian Wars? I'm sure they're relevant.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 14 August 2008 12:37 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Bingo. Gotcha. So the Americans were wrong to defend the Kurds, wrong to fight back, wrong to drive the Ba'athists out of the areas where they could continue to do harm. They're wrong to make sure that the Ba'athists can't do the same again by removing them from power. They're wrong to help out the Shi'ites as well, or prevent a slaughter there that already happened in Iraqi Kurdistan

But this isn't what the Americans did. What they did was kill 1 million Iraqis, half of them children, with illegal sanctions under the pretext of prevening Iraq from re-arming.

Despite those sanctions and the degradation of Iraq's military in Desert Storm, they posited the outrageous lie, willing accepted by the corporate media, that Iraq not only managed to rebuild its military, despite sanctions that were literally killing people, but he rebuilt it and expanded it and developed WMDs with sophisticated missiles and launchers capable of reaching Britain and North America.

It was all a lie.

In the course of an illegal war in the service of that lie, the US killed upwards of a further 1 million Iraq and displaced 4 million more of a country of only 25 million.

And, today, they are paying those very same Ba'athists as members of "Awakening Councils" to turn their guns on each other rather than Americans at least until the money runs out.


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Sven
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posted 14 August 2008 12:42 PM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
Actually, it hasn't been your point. Your point has been to try and get babblers wringing their hands over Russia's action in Georgia as though we were all Fox News analysts.

Please re-read the post I wrote, to which you responded with the above.

In that post of mine, I said you have greeted Russia’s actions with silence (except, of course, saying it’s all America’s fault). And you have said you’re not advocating anything. So, you are, in fact, being silent with regard to Russia’s actions (other than, once again, saying it’s all America’s fault).


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 14 August 2008 12:45 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Fine, Sven. Why don't you, or one of the cabal of zealots who accompany you here, (damn, I miss Jeff House at a time like this. Now there was a man who could fight dirty! ) outline for us what you think the Russians should have done?

Take your time. I will go for a nap, OK?

[ 14 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sven
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posted 14 August 2008 12:48 PM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Still waiting for remind to answer my question to her regarding whether she approves of Russia’s conduct in Georgia or not.
From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Sven
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posted 14 August 2008 12:49 PM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:
Take your time. I will go for a nap, OK?

You promise?


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 14 August 2008 12:50 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
In that post of mine, I said you have greeted Russia’s actions with silence (except, of course, saying it’s all America’s fault). And you have said you’re not advocating anything. So, you are, in fact, being silent with regard to Russia’s actions (other than, once again, saying it’s all America’s fault).

Not at all. You have failed to read my posts. I have said, and I will repeat, that nothing I think or anyone else here thinks will have any influence over Russian foreign policy (or American for that matter).

What does have influence is international law, the application of international law, international institutions, precedence, and issues of national security.

The US has set the precedents and has worked hard to undermine international law, its applications, and the institutions charged with administering it.

In essence, the US, under the Bush-Clinton-Bush regimes, have managed to undo decades of progress and revert us, on an international stage, back to the jungle.

Congratulations. You must be very proud.

ETA: My own current government is equally shameful and hypocritical.

[ 14 August 2008: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 14 August 2008 12:51 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sven:
Still waiting for remind to answer my question to her regarding whether she approves of Russia’s conduct in Georgia or not.

Why would you be waiting for it, you already answered it, yourself?!


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 14 August 2008 12:54 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Sven: Still waiting for remind to answer my question to her regarding whether she approves of Russia’s conduct in Georgia or not.

What sort of schoolboy question is this? Why not tell us, from the great heights from which you evaluate the moral worth of the events of the day, what you think the Russians should have done? This isn't catechism.

And yes. I will take a break. But I expect you to do better than "the Rooskies can't be trusted" or "lay down and die".


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sven
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posted 14 August 2008 12:58 PM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
In essence, the US, under the Bush-Clinton-Bush regimes, have managed to undo decades of progress and revert us, on an international stage, back to the jungle.

So, to summarize and logically extrapolate:

■ USA conduct has thrown world behavior back to the “rules” of the jungle.

■ The rules of the jungle are bad.

■ Russia is now acting according to the rules of the jungle.

■ Therefore, Russia’s conduct is bad.

Do you disagree with any of that?


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
A_J
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posted 14 August 2008 12:59 PM      Profile for A_J     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:
The Americans, in the first invasion of Iraq, left the Kurds to their fate after encouraging them to rebel against Saddam Hussein. That's pretty pathetic using such an example.

So what you're saying is that the U.S. didn't invade Iraq soon enough?

From: * | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged
Sven
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posted 14 August 2008 01:03 PM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by the Svenmeister:
Still waiting for remind to answer my question to her regarding whether she approves of Russia’s conduct in Georgia or not.

quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:
What sort of schoolboy question is this?

Well, the same kind of schoolgirl question asked by remind earlier today:

quote:
Originally posted by remind:
Still waiting for Sven to answer answer my question to him regarding how he feels about the USA's cupability in this?

Why do you ask, N.Beltov?

[ 14 August 2008: Message edited by: Sven ]


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 14 August 2008 01:03 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What is it with right wing thought? They seem to want to construct elaborate rules of conduct which they have no intention of remaining faithful to in any case.

Oh, wait. I get it. It's all a game.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 14 August 2008 01:08 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:

I'd like Russia to be like Sweden only bigger.


So did Gorbachev want Swedish style market socialism. Economic shock specialists like Jeffrey Sachs said they needed to deregulate prices and wages, and privatize everything in sight. Harvard economists said Russian savings represented "pesky overhang" In fact, HIID economists figured that Russian industries needed to be collapsed in order to make Russians entirely dependent on free market forces, totally reliant on their whacky vision for the new Liberal capitalism which still hasn't worked anywhere tried except tolerated in moderate doses in countries where U.S.-backed despots are able to quell protests. Russians were duped. Their economy was deliberately laid waste to after a decade of the most aggressive cold war manouvering by the west and economic warfare with Saudis and oil sheikdoms dumping oil on world markets, vicious trade embargoes and so on.

And ironically, Jeffrey Sachs is now an advocate for the Nordic model over flexible labour markets and right-wing privatization mantras.

[ 14 August 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Sven
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posted 14 August 2008 01:11 PM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think you should, as promised, take your nap, N.Beltov. Rest up. Recharge your batteries. You must be physically and emotionally drained from the sustained sense of euphoria that you have had about woodshed metaphors and that fact that the Mighty Russian Bear has beat up Georgia (a grand accomplishment, I suppose, for the Russians), not to mention commandeering what must be a babble record of...what?...216 separate threads (and counting) regarding the Russian-Georgian matter in just a matter of a few days.
From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 14 August 2008 01:22 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually, I'm somewhat invigorated. I've had some good news today.

But about the topic. I feel as if I've learned a lot. Someone once told me that political beliefs are only truly strong if they can be defended against anyone, anywhere, anytime. babble can provide a setting for this. You should try it sometime. It will strengthen your own views. Or change them for the better.

I'm happy the bear did the right thing. Those who are suspicious of the bear all the time should recognize the same truth and give up their habitual rejection. I think I already remarked that, if it is easier, one can always imagine that the bear was well-behaved by mistake, or by accident.

What should the Russians have done differently? And don't just cherry pick. Look at the broad results of their actions so far. It should be easy to outline a different and better course of action for them if their conduct was so egregious.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Brendan Stone
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posted 14 August 2008 01:30 PM      Profile for Brendan Stone   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
Yes. Because the USA made a mockery of international law. So what rules now apply to the conduct of the Russians? What restraints apply? In terms of international law, very few as international law has been reduced to an international joke by the conduct of the USA.

Just completed an interview with a lawyer about the legality of the conflict:

http://soundclick.com/share?songid=6805574


From: Hamilton | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 14 August 2008 01:37 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Someone wrote in a news piece that they thought for a nuclear power at the time, the Russians were remarkably restrained about what was extremely aggressive cold war manouvering in the 1980's. The fly-overs breaching Soviet airspace were happening as usual, but there were actual military incursions and offensives on Soviet soil and continuing today even closer to "mother Russia" Of course someone else once said that the Russians are notorious for their game of retreat.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 14 August 2008 02:06 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I have never in my life met anyone from any country in eastern Europe or the Baltic states who doesn't absolutely loathe Russia for all the crimes against humanity they committed.

You should meet more people then. My evidence is entirely anecdotal, too, but I'm friends with a couple of guys who grew up in Warsaw Pact countries. Neither of them has ever expressed overt hostility to the Soviets (although one made his contempt for "Vestern Marxists" quite clear). They actually expressed how they someimes found the Soviet system superior to what is there now.

One of them, who watched Russian tanks enter his home town 40 years ago, and who also lived in the USA for a while, goes so far to say that he found that he felt freer in occupied Czechoslovakia than he did in the US, because at least people under Soviet rule had "free minds" and could discern propaganda when they encountered it.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 14 August 2008 02:09 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
at least people under Soviet rule had "free minds"

Like when they got sent to the Gulag???


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 14 August 2008 02:15 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
BetterRed
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posted 14 August 2008 02:18 PM      Profile for BetterRed     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:

Like when they got sent to the Gulag???


The Gulags were shut down after Stalin's death, before most of the current world leaders (Bush, Putin, Brown, Merkel, Hu) were even born.
Let it go, Stock. The GUlags were despicable, but there were no Stalinists running the show since then.

- From the Wikipedia article on Gulag:

quote:
The amnesty in March 1953 was limited to non-political prisoners and for political prisoners sentenced to not more than 5 years, therefore mostly those convicted for common crimes were then freed. The release of political prisoners started in 1954 and became widespread, and also coupled with mass rehabilitations, after Nikita Khrushchev's denunciation of Stalinism in his Secret Speech at the 20th Congress of the CPSU in February 1956.

By the end of the 1950s, virtually all "corrective labor camps" were dissolved. Colonies, however, continued to exist. Officially the GULAG was liquidated by the MVD order 20 of January 25, 1960.



From: They change the course of history, everyday ppl like you and me | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
A_J
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posted 14 August 2008 02:20 PM      Profile for A_J     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
CBC - Few Signs Russians are pulling out of Georgia
quote:
. . . Underlining the chaos, [CBC's Alexandra] Szacka and Montreal-based CBC producer Marie-Ève Bédard had their car hijacked as they approached [Gori, still apparently occupied by Russian forces].

"There were several Russian tanks waiting for orders to go back and to let us into the city," she said, "and, out of the blue, an armed man, an unidentified man in uniform, started shooting, so it was kind of a panic.

"We were several journalists and humanitarian workers waiting there, and he started shooting and everybody started running. He ran right into our driver and then told him, 'Give me the keys! Give me the keys!' and our driver gave him the keys and he stole our car and everything inside and it was gone."

The CBC's Mike Hornbrook, stopped behind a Georgian military column on the road to Gori, said the Russians appear to have withdrawn at least partly from the area, creating a power vacuum that had been filled by bandits.

Gunmen have been stopping cars and robbing people, sometimes under the noses of Russian troops, he said.

"The Russians were there; they were sitting on their vehicles and they didn't try to stop them," he said, adding: "I heard one of them quoted as saying, 'We have no orders to do anything about this.'" . . .



quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:
Of course, the occupier of Iraq bears the most responsibility for the fratricidal conflict that goes on under their authority.

From: * | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 14 August 2008 02:21 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It may not have been called the Gulag after Stalin, but vast numbers of people were jailed and sent to forced labour camps for any criticism of the Soviet government right up until 1990. In fact i was in the Czech Republic in 1991 and heard horror stories of dissidents being sent to forced labour camps where they had to handle radioactive materials without any protective gear - because the government wanted them to get as much exposure to carcinogens as possible.
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Cueball
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posted 14 August 2008 02:23 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A couple of linke here and there would be helpful. In anycase Russia isn't running any Gulags now (force labour prisons) they do that in Texas though.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 14 August 2008 02:27 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
But the Russian government has journalists shot dead at point blank range and has their spies putting molybdenum in people's sushi as far away as London. i wonder if they will start killing people with poison tipped umbrellas again like they were doing in the late 70s.
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Cueball
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posted 14 August 2008 02:28 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Linky?
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 14 August 2008 02:46 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Good grief, A_J. Can't you do better than that? The story you quoted has the following sub-heading:

"Reports of chaos and banditry between the lines"

Besides - aren't you the same babbler who tried to lecture me on the harmfulness of shooting looters? Or was that some other yahoo?

Edited to add: at least the Russian media I read (just check out Interfax if you don't believe me) also made reference to Georgian claims before trying to debunk them. That whole CBC "story" passed over in silence the initial Georgian attack.

[ 14 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 14 August 2008 03:01 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What business does Russia have interveing in the first place. Why not just let the South Ossetians and the Georgians fight their own battles?
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Fidel
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posted 14 August 2008 03:08 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:

Like when they got sent to the Gulag???


Soviet education was world renowned. Tuition was free, and somewhere over 20 percent of Russians aged 30 to 59 possess six-year advanced degrees or higher educational attainment today - about twice the percentage as the U.S.

And, take a wild guess as to which vicious empire imprisons more of its citizens in public and private gulags than any other country today?


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
A_J
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posted 14 August 2008 03:08 PM      Profile for A_J     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:
Edited to add: at least the Russian media I read (just check out Interfax if you don't believe me) also made reference to Georgian claims before trying to debunk them. That whole CBC "story" passed over in silence the initial Georgian attack.

The story is not about what started the war (Georgian attack or otherwise), just conditions around Gori today as reported by several journalists and witnesses. It is just as you mentioned - a report of "chaos and banditry" in the vacuum between Georgian and Russian forces. No more, no less.

News stories would get unnecessarily long, even if it was only a 6 day war, if they had to recap everything that had happened up to the date of its writing, don't you agree? Nice to know that CBC trusts us to at least be able to remember salient details from previous reporting

[ 14 August 2008: Message edited by: A_J ]


From: * | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged
George Victor
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posted 14 August 2008 03:09 PM      Profile for George Victor        Edit/Delete Post
None of you would have made ambassadors to Outer Slobovia!
From: Cambridge, ON | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 14 August 2008 03:11 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
What business does Russia have interveing in the first place. Why not just let the South Ossetians and the Georgians fight their own battles?
After eight threads chock full of information you have the nerve to ask this ignorant question?

From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 14 August 2008 03:14 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If I've sent you into an apoplexy - I'm glad.
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BetterRed
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posted 14 August 2008 03:14 PM      Profile for BetterRed     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
After eight threads chock full of information you have the nerve to ask this ignorant question?

Surprising density...

Y'know, even The Guardian have come around to see US and Georgian culpability in this ridiculous war.


From: They change the course of history, everyday ppl like you and me | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 14 August 2008 03:15 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That CBC propaganda piece did, however, have plenty of room for regurgitating the claims of the Georgian butchers that they did nothing wrong. And plenty of room to regurgitate the crap that another babbler has already vomited up, that the Minister's remarks meant anything other than that the Abkhazians and Ossetians weren't likely to even want to be absorbed (i.e. ethnically cleansed) by the Georgians again. Pretty lowbrow propaganda if you ask me.
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N.Beltov
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posted 14 August 2008 03:21 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Stockholm: Why not just let the South Ossetians and the Georgians fight their own battles?

Because many more thousands would be dead. Would that please you?


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M. Spector
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posted 14 August 2008 03:25 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
If I've sent you into an apoplexy - I'm glad.
Yea, I'm sure that would make you very happy, as someone who harbours murderous hatred for anybody who dares to oppose the Washington consensus.

From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 14 August 2008 03:34 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That's pretty messed up. It's not just the trolling, which he's as much as admitted. It's the laughing indifference to human life that has no place on babble.

Could some moderator give Stockholm a slap upside the head? Maybe he's been playing HALO too much, or something.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
A_J
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posted 14 August 2008 03:43 PM      Profile for A_J     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:
That CBC propaganda piece did, however, have plenty of room for regurgitating the claims of the Georgian butchers that they did nothing wrong.

So what you're trying to say is that people are not being robbed by bandits while the Russians (the occupiers responsible for the people under their authority) do nothing, and that Szacka and Bédard from the CBC did not have their car stolen from them outside of Russian-held Gori? I just want to be clear.

From: * | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 14 August 2008 03:44 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:

Like when they got sent to the Gulag???



I don't know, they didn't say anything about a "gulag" to me, unless they think our word for "gulag" is "university."

No wait, they're both PhDs, so they must have meant "university"...


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 14 August 2008 04:00 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry, A_J, I'm sure you just want to "be clear" but could you make it "clear" whether you acknowledge the initial slaughter by the Georgians in Ossetia and your moral stand on that. I'm asked a few times and you still haven't made your answer "clear".

I'm sure it's just an oversight on your part.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
A_J
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posted 14 August 2008 04:22 PM      Profile for A_J     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:
Sorry, A_J, I'm sure you just want to "be clear" but could you make it "clear" whether you acknowledge the initial slaughter by the Georgians in Ossetia and your moral stand on that. I'm asked a few times and you still haven't made your answer "clear".

I'm sure it's just an oversight on your part.



I have, you are just a very selective reader.

I have no doubt that a lot of people have been killed in the fighting who need not have been killed, and casualties were likely significant in South Ossetia. I expect and await a full and impartial investigation into the accusations of atrocities. At the moment the claims are simply far too convenient for Russia to unquestioningly accept them in lock-step with the Kremlin, much like all of the talk about Iraq's WMD's, or throwing Kuwaiti babies out of their incubators. Both also used to drum up support for war and both also false.

Now that that's cleared away, we should do something about these lies the CBC has been posting. How dare Szacka and Bédard claim that their car was stolen when it most obviously was not? Where do they get off claiming that Russian peacekeepers are, literally, not keeping the peace? I hope there will be a full investigation into this as well now that you've shown it to be all lies and that people have, unequivocally, not been robbed . . .


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N.Beltov
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posted 14 August 2008 04:31 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
A_J: I have no doubt that a lot of people have been killed in the fighting who need not have been killed, and casualties were likely significant in South Ossetia.... Now that that's cleared away ...

Not so fast. You haven't acknowledged that the casualties were actually Ossetians and Russians. For all I know you're still labouring under the mistaken idea that all the casualties were Georgian, or some other fairy tale.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
A_J
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posted 14 August 2008 04:46 PM      Profile for A_J     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:
Not so fast. You haven't acknowledged that the casualties were actually Ossetians and Russians. For all I know you're still labouring under the mistaken idea that all the casualties were Georgian, or some other fairy tale.

Well, I can't do much about "what you know", which is a shame. However, people "in South Ossetia" are generally called "South Ossetians", no? Perhaps that will help you a little. I have no idea who makes up the bulk or majority of the unfortunate casualties of this war though, but can assume they come from all sides. I'm still awaiting independent confirmation before jumping to conclusions. Call me old fashioned.

But enough about me, I hope you will be making a formal complaint to the CBC however about their employees lying about their car being stolen, and set them straight on the lack of looting or Russian inaction on this (non-existent) looting. It's shameful, really, the lies they'll print even though our own N.Beltov knows what's really happening. You hold the truth and the real facts in your hands N.Beltov - don't let them get away with this!

[ 14 August 2008: Message edited by: A_J ]


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N.Beltov
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posted 14 August 2008 04:51 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
OK, so you refuse to acknowledge the fundamental fact of the whole series of events. I mean the Georgian attack, the wholesale slaughter, that led to all the subsequent events. Astonishing.

I guess I will have to withhold my own judgement as well about whatever it is you were blathering about.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
George Victor
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posted 14 August 2008 05:12 PM      Profile for George Victor        Edit/Delete Post
May we have "Georgia on my mind" taken "off the ice" now?AT least, that was how one "objector" phrased it. Too messy having two around, or something.

It had started out so promisingly, and would have ended with quite a different twist. History was involved, and it would have turned on that history, rather than trying to sort wartime fact from fiction (propaganda).


From: Cambridge, ON | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 14 August 2008 05:20 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No "Georges" have been hurt by these remarks. I hope.
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 14 August 2008 05:22 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sadly george, the right wing propagandists would have done the same thing, in any other thread, as they did in this thread. They have done what they came to do, try to manage the message and get the left fighting amongst themselves.
From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 14 August 2008 05:50 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I have no doubt that a lot of people have been killed in the fighting who need not have been killed...

Then there are those who needed to be killed?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
George Victor
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posted 14 August 2008 06:34 PM      Profile for George Victor        Edit/Delete Post
This George would have done it just the way Vladimir did.
God it looks good on that other George.

Those with "opposing views" might break free of the propaganda machines. Depends who they read, I guess.


From: Cambridge, ON | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 14 August 2008 07:13 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:

Not so fast. You haven't acknowledged that the casualties were actually Ossetians and Russians. For all I know you're still labouring under the mistaken idea that all the casualties were Georgian, or some other fairy tale.


I think what matters to Warshington and colder war news media-propagandists is that most Americans believe that Russia initiated the aggression. Right now Americans believe Russia attacked Georgia, not that Georgia launched a terrible rocket assault and murdered hundreds of Ossetes without provocation. Joe Goebbels isn't dead.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 14 August 2008 07:29 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So, to summarize and logically extrapolate:

■ USA conduct has thrown world behavior back to the “rules” of the jungle.

■ The rules of the jungle are bad.

■ Russia is now acting according to the rules of the jungle.

■ Therefore, Russia’s conduct is bad.

Do you disagree with any of that?



I agree with the concept of law, international law, and strong international institutions to implement and enforce that law.

However, a law that some obey and others ignore without consequences is no law at all. That is a sucker's game.

Your nation rendered international law, as pointed out, an international joke. For Russia to abide by international rules of conduct, while your country surrounds them with arms aall the while thumbing its nose at protocols (did you forget your country promised Russia it would not do exactly what it was doing? You country also promised native Americans not to enter their territory in North Dakota and we know what happened, don't we? Maybe the Russians have learned the value of the American word and signature), treaties, and laws, would be foolish in the extreme.

You wouldn't be so stupid as to accept such a situation in real life, Sven and, clearly, neither is Russia stupid enough to accept it in the world criminal oligarchs we call international politics.

Why don't you direct your anger where it matters: at your own nation which has created the global environment of lawlessness in which we now find ourselves?

On a side note, the worm may be turning just a little bit further:

quote:
The meeting with Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Turkey’s prime minister, marks Mr Ahmadi-Nejad’s first bilateral visit to a Nato member. Mr Erdogan is seeking to strengthen energy ties with Tehran, step up co-operation against Kurdish separatists and intensify Turkey’s efforts to defuse the dispute over Iran’s nuclear programme.

The centrepiece of the visit is likely to be progress on an energy initiative that Ankara and Tehran launched last year. That could see a deal signed to increase Iranian natural gas supply and set rates for the transportation of Turkmen gas across Iran.

The US state department said Washington was opposed to any country deepening economic ties with Tehran. “This is not the time to do business with Iran,” it said.

“It is time for the international community, including our ally Turkey, to begin considering additional measures to pressure Iran.”



Have the puppets begun to pull back on thier strings?

[ 14 August 2008: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 14 August 2008 07:44 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Russians, who were the target of the provocation, will be quietly pleased with the speed and effectiveness of their Government's response. There is no great moral issue here. What Georgia tried to do to South Ossetia is precisely what Russia did to Chechnya, but Georgia wasn't strong enough and South Ossetia had a bigger friend. There is no great strategic issue either: apart from a few pipeline routes, the whole Transcaucasus is of little importance to the rest of the world.

In six months' time, we probably won't even remember this foolish adventure.



Gwynn Dyer

From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 14 August 2008 08:05 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That was excellent and calm analysis from Gwynne Dyer. Where is he politically? A small "L" liberal?

Dyer's piece just goes to show what ridiculous cranks and/or mischievous xenophobes babble attracts. And what a waste of time they are. Gah.

Edited to add: here's an interesting admission from US sources. Here is the link.

quote:
Robert Hunter, former ambassador to NATO under President Clinton and senior adviser for RAND Corporation, said Wednesday's proposal does not spell out a timetable and that Russian interpretation that peacekeeping forces can enter Georgia to respond to provocations also poses problems.

Fair enough. But now for the interesting bit:

quote:
Hunter said the U.S. also needs to monitor Saakashvili.

"Georgians do have an interest in provocation and need to be kept under control," he said. "Because the incentive for the Georgians is to have the Russians do nasty things which will then help their bargaining with the outside world."


And that from a US source. A week has passed and people whom we would expect to be highly sympathetic towards Saakashvili are already adopting a cautious attitude towards his regime.

He's toast, pure and simple.

[ 14 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 14 August 2008 08:25 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's true. A small-L liberal like Dyer would be denounced as a far-left radical if he ever came to post on babble.
From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 14 August 2008 08:35 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Then what the hell are you and I doing here?
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 14 August 2008 08:51 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You were beginning to wonder that, too?
From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
NorthReport
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posted 14 August 2008 09:02 PM      Profile for NorthReport     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What an absolutely pathetic and useless post. If you haven't anything to say why bother posting at all.

Here is a little substance from Dyer for you to whet your teeth on. This isn't rocket science.

quote:
The three-day war in South Ossetia is settled, and the Georgians have lost. There may be some more shooting yet, but it is now clear that Georgia will never regain control of the rebel territories of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

Also that President Mikhail Saakashvili has handed Russia a major victory, and that Georgia's hopes of joining NATO are gone. Pretty impressive work for one long weekend.

Now Saakashvili is playing on old Cold War stereotypes of the Russian threat in a desperate bid for Western backing: "What Russia is doing in Georgia is open, unhidden aggression and a challenge to the whole world. If the whole world does not stop Russia today, then Russian tanks will be able to reach any other European capital."

Nonsense. It was Georgia that started this war.



quote:
Originally posted by A_J:

Well, I can't do much about "what you know", which is a shame. However, people "in South Ossetia" are generally called "South Ossetians", no? Perhaps that will help you a little. I have no idea who makes up the bulk or majority of the unfortunate casualties of this war though, but can assume they come from all sides. I'm still awaiting independent confirmation before jumping to conclusions. Call me old fashioned.

But enough about me, I hope you will be making a formal complaint to the CBC however about their employees lying about their car being stolen, and set them straight on the lack of looting or Russian inaction on this (non-existent) looting. It's shameful, really, the lies they'll print even though our own N.Beltov knows what's really happening. You hold the truth and the real facts in your hands N.Beltov - don't let them get away with this!


[ 14 August 2008: Message edited by: NorthReport ]


From: From sea to sea to sea | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 14 August 2008 09:11 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:
Then what the hell are you and I doing here?

Cold war era indoctrination here in the far west was constant and pervasive. The odd cold war era leftover has attacked us from the most obtuse angles right here on babble. And isn't it great fun - waiting for them to reply as they search through cobwebs of their minds for old Reader's Digest and other memorable propaganda from the rootin-tootin cold war years to throw at us?


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 14 August 2008 10:06 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
NorthReport, I'm not sure what your aim was in juxtaposing those two quotations. Spell it out for me, will you?

Yes, I can be that dumb sometimes.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
NorthReport
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posted 14 August 2008 10:18 PM      Profile for NorthReport     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
N.Beltov

I was referring to that post in its entirety, not the two paragraphs for comparison or contrast.


From: From sea to sea to sea | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 14 August 2008 10:30 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm still confused. You've got a nice Dyer quote followed by a quote from babbler A_J in which the latter gives me a scolding in the form of a mock encouragement to get in touch with the CBC for their poor coverage.
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 15 August 2008 03:15 AM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Part IX
From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged

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