Author
|
Topic: Georgian cock-up in the Caucasus Part VIII
|
N.Beltov
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4140
|
posted 14 August 2008 09:32 AM
Here is Part VII.I've been reading a blog by a self-described Russian White Guard Monarchist and she's got some rather entertaining remarks. Here are some choice morsels. Enjoy. link quote: Bush and Rice are blathering about “isolating” Russia and their British poodle yipped up as well. Hmm… Germany, France, Italy, Slovakia, Turkey, China, Japan, India, and Iran, amongst others, beg to differ. The US talks big of expelling Russia from international organisations; yet, Russia is not concerned, as they know that their friends in the West shall support them.Advice to Bush and Rice: SHUT UP. All that is happening is that they are making the US look ridiculous and foolhardy. Of course, this is an outcome that Russia is willing to take to the bank. Bush is making one empty threat after another, reducing the credibility of the USA with each one. The next president of the US is going to have a great stench in the barnyard left by King George, Sir Richard, and Lady Condi, and he is going to have to pull on his wellies to muck out the byre to get relations back to normal.
By the way, here is a longer article on the many countries siding with Russia on South Ossetia. The geo-political gamble by the US and its client state has utterly backfired. And Saakashvili may yet have his day in the dock. [ 14 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Frustrated Mess
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8312
|
posted 14 August 2008 09:46 AM
From Sven: quote: In other words, Russia can do whatever the fuck it wants because it’s all the USA’s fault.
Yes. Because the USA made a mockery of international law. So what rules now apply to the conduct of the Russians? What restraints apply? In terms of international law, very few as international law has been reduced to an international joke by the conduct of the USA. quote: When it comes to the invasion of Iraq in 2003, the answer is ... no, yes, no.Here is the New York Times editorial from March 9, 2003, ten days before the invasion of Iraq. "If it comes down to a question of yes or no to invasion without broad international support, our answer is no." I note this in order to dispel the myth that the entire journalistic establishment was/is in favour of all US government actions.
As was pointed out by Contriana, that was one opinion piece, and hardly a condemnation, among a tidal wave of support and drum beating for war from the NYT.But it does provide a wonderful excerpt for the purpose of my discussion with Sven: quote: it (the USA) needs to demonstrate by example that there are certain rules that everybody has to follow, one of the most important of which is that you do not invade another country for any but the most compelling of reasons
And in fact, it demonstrated the complete opposite. So on what basis is the Russian response to Georgia's invasion to be tempered?
From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sven
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9972
|
posted 14 August 2008 09:52 AM
Notably missing from the list of countries supposedly supporting Russia is Sweden: quote:
Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt likened Putin's rationale for the invasion of Georgia to the thinking of Serbia's Slobodan Milosevic -- and to a certain well-known 20th century German politician. "We have reason to remember how Hitler used this very doctrine little more than half a century ago to undermine and attack substantial parts of central Europe," Bildt said after a visit to Georgia on Monday. "No state has a right to intervene militarily in the territory of another state simply because there are individuals there with a passport issued by that state or who are nationals of that state."
Also missing from that list: quote:
On Tuesday, five heads of state from nations once controlled by the Soviet Union -- Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Ukraine and Poland -- arrived at a rally in Tbilisi to rebuke Russia for its invasion of the Central Asian country.[snip] "Old Europe isn't listening to Poles, Lithuanians and Ukrainians. Old Europe doesn't want to anger Russia, and doesn't see the integrity of Georgia's borders as something worth risking its relationship with Moscow over," the left-leaning daily Gazeta Wyborcza wrote.
But, no, it’s all about the United States and George Bush and woodsheds.
From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
N.Beltov
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4140
|
posted 14 August 2008 09:56 AM
The Russians will use Article 51 of the UN Charter to substantiate their actions. It is the right to self-defense and so on. Let those who think people under attack should lie down and die make their odious case themselves. The de facto independence of South Ossetia and Abkhazia may become de jure. It's about time. Saakashvili will be lucky if he avoids the dock or the fate typical for tyrants that blacken the name of their own country to the world with attacks on civilian populations. Uncle Sam may retire him to a liberal arts college in New England if they can find one dumb enough to take him. And speaking of Uncle Sam ... he will swagger, bluster, and possibly attack some small defenseless country himself to sooth his bruised ego. Let's hope he doesn't blame Canada. I think we should be OK. The seal pup in 24 Sussex Drive should be yelping the same tune that the poodle at 10 Downing Street is currently yapping. [ 14 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sven
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9972
|
posted 14 August 2008 10:01 AM
quote: Originally posted by Frustrated Mess: Yes. Because the USA made a mockery of international law. So what rules now apply to the conduct of the Russians? What restraints apply? In terms of international law, very few as international law has been reduced to an international joke by the conduct of the USA.
So what, exactly, are you advocating happens with regard to what’s going on in Georgia? If you think Russia is acting in good faith, then why don’t you just say you support what Russia is doing? If not, why can’t you criticize both Russia and America?
From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stockholm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3138
|
posted 14 August 2008 10:04 AM
There have now been SIX threads started in about two days - all by Beltov, all devoted to rah-rah-rah for Russia and Putin and each one is about 90% composed of endless Beltov posts that are mostly direct quotes from Russian media and propaganda outlets.If only someone would start as many threads about Chechnya or about Kashmir??? Why bother? Any of us can go to the website of the Russian News Agency and get all the unquestioning pro-Russian spin we want. Or better yet, why not start a blog entirely devoted to extolling the virtues of mother Russia and her great contribution to world peace?
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
contrarianna
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13058
|
posted 14 August 2008 10:07 AM
quote: Originally posted by Sven: Notably missing from the list of countries supposedly supporting Russia is Sweden: quote: Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt likened Putin's rationale for the invasion of Georgia to the thinking of Serbia's Slobodan Milosevic -- and to a certain well-known 20th century German politician. "We have reason to remember how Hitler used this very doctrine little more than half a century ago to undermine and attack substantial parts of central Europe," Bildt said after a visit to Georgia on Monday. "No state has a right to intervene militarily in the territory of another state simply because there are individuals there with a passport issued by that state or who are nationals of that state." But, no, it’s all about the United States and George Bush and woodsheds.
Bildt's nonaligned non-interventionist concern is indeed touching: "Bildt has also been questioned for his role as a member of the International Advisory Council of the Committee for the Liberation of Iraq, a group with ties to the Bush administration pushing for an invasion of Iraq in 2003."
From: here to inanity | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Stockholm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3138
|
posted 14 August 2008 10:23 AM
quote: The Baltic states can be expected to line up like good trained seals. They've got their own domestic audience and history to think about. Same with the Poles, for that matter.
What do you expect? These are countries that were colonized by Russia over a 50 year-plus period, saw all their leaders massacred, in the case of the Baltic states, their languages and culture were suppressed and Russia blatantly tried to move as many ethnic Russians as possible in to try to assimilate the and demographically overwhelm the local populations. Were you expecting them to express gratitude to Russia for all these horrors? I have never in my life met anyone from any country in eastern Europe or the Baltic states who doesn't absolutely loathe Russia for all the crimes against humanity they committed.
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
RosaL
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13921
|
posted 14 August 2008 10:28 AM
Sen. John McCain: quote: I want to have a dialogue with the Russians. I want them to get out of Georgian territory as quickly as possible. And I am interested in good relations between the United States and Russia. But in the twenty-first century, nations don’t invade other nations.
My apologies if someone has already posted this.
From: the underclass | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
KenS
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1174
|
posted 14 August 2008 10:29 AM
quote: The apologetic for the Georgian attack is now, I think, shifting gears and blathering about the territorial integrity of Georgia. What they mean is the right of Georgia to march into Ossetia and Abkhazia with impunity and do what the hell they like. We saw this past weekend what that entailed. I think the Russians are wise to say that they will respect the wishes of the Ossetians and Abkhazians, whatever they are. So far, although the Russian government has given many, even most, Ossetians Russians passports, they have been careful not to annex Ossetia or Abkhazia. That's the right way to go for a peacekeeper/peacemaker. Let the locals decide their own fate.
The orgy of aplogia for Georgia requires only some pretty simple critique- it does not require being an overboard apologist for Russia as an antidote. [And for what it is worth, that apology for Georgia has not shifted. Not to mention the territorial integrity and security concerns of the Gerogian people do also have legitimacy- they just don’t give Georgia or the US a right to use them as a justification for anything.] Giving credit to Russia for respecting the wishes of Ossetians and Abkhazians ‘whatever they are’ is funny. That’s like the US saying they will respect what Gerogians want ‘whatever that is’: easy to do when you know what Georgians want is to kick Russian butt however they can. Russia supports the aspirations of these folks when it happens to conform with their power games, and uses the iron fist when it doesn’t conform. And giving credit to them for not annexing the territories is REALLY funny. Such a sacrifice. Actual control is what matters. Russia even provides most of the revenue for the Republic of south Ossetia. What good would annexing do them? Your admiration for Russia and the trust you give to its statement of intentions is embarrasing to watch. quote: What I see the Russians doing is to retreat back to simply protecting the Ossetians and Abkhazians and keeping some adjacent territory as a bargaining chip and as a way to ensure no more Georgian atrocities take place. As the situation improves, the Russians can abandon the territory, as they have with Gori for example, once the ability of the Georgians to carry out further atrocities is taken away. Simple, but effective. The Georgians are still, according to reports, directing sniper fire at Ossetia. Looting is also being reported, although I must add that looters are being summarily executed according to one report I read. I can't say I feel sorry for the looters. If you're going to behave like that in wartime, and take advantage of thousands of refugees, a bullet is what you deserve anyway.
The Georgians, “according to reports, ” are still directing sniper fire at Ossetia. But you believe everything the Russians say about how moderated their response and their intentions. Russia is drawing out its presence in and around Gori as long as it feels like. And its columns continue to appear everywhere at will, and leave, and maybe come back. Given that they completely control the military situation they don’t have to fire a single shot or explicitly occupy any territory to exert and extend the iron fist. It’s more than formalism to call that ‘restrained’. A little random sniper fire is what you expect from isolated elements of the losers- if even that much is happening. I’m not for a minute going to suggest that Georgians are not a potential threat to the life and liberty of Ossetians. And we will see what atrocities did or did not happen. But your repeating of what the Russian media serves up is highly suspect and serves an immediate propoganda interest [ie, it has a propoganda effect now, regardless of what turns out to be the truth. Human Rights Watch has been in and around the Ossetian capital for several days now- and the Russian and local authorities have had plenty of time to show them evidence of the atrocities you speak of. They have seen nothing. They do speak of lots of wanton destruction of civilian communities- Ossetian and Georgian- but with numbers of people killed, all around, in the hundreds. It is worth also worth noting that there were before recent hostilities far more ethnic Georgian refugees than Ossetians, there are also likely to be more new Georgian refugees as the outcome of recent hostilities even with the Georgian bombardment of the Ossetian capital, and there are the ominous expectations of what comes next. Before the breakup of the Soviet Union Ossetians were the majority in South Ossetia, but they did not predominate as they did in North Ossetia. And there are still big areas of the administrative region that are mostly Georgian- especially the eastern third and the villages surrounding the capital that have been ravaged and destroyed in retaliation in the last week. Russia has not protected Gerogians, and what do you suppose will happen now that Russia has a free hand to complete the de facto absorption of South Ossetia? Much of the blame for the plight of those Georgians should be laid at the feet of their demagogic leaders- and the recent refugees are an inevitable consequence of the current demagogues adventure unleashed last week. But it is one sided apologia to talk look only of killing and suffering inflicted by Georgians- much less pass on as gospel Russian reports of atrocities hot off the presses. [ 14 August 2008: Message edited by: KenS ]
From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
It's Me D
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 15152
|
posted 14 August 2008 10:52 AM
quote: I for one would like to see Russia elect a moderate social democratic government that wants to expand the welfare state, improve health care and education, do something about social conditions and the incredible concentration of wealth, disarm and demilitarize as much as possible and stop interfering in the affairs of other countries and have as low a profile in global affairs as possible.I'd like Russia to be like Sweden only bigger.
Thanks for answering my question Stockholm; although directed at Sven I'm certainly interested in anyone's answer. As for that answer, which certainly many would find laudable: You are presumably aware that no such political party (moderate social democrat) exists in Russia. To what would you attribute this lack? Do you believe that if given the option your preferred Russia is also the Russia that most of its own citizen's would choose?
From: Parrsboro, NS | Registered: Apr 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
N.Beltov
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4140
|
posted 14 August 2008 10:59 AM
Apparently the Georgians specially targeted churches in their bombardment, knowing the Ossetians would hide there."The Chief Priest of the Province, Father Georgy ???, says 60% of his parishioners were killed." Many of them were hiding in the churches. Maybe the Georgians were just saving funeral expenses by killing civilians right in the churches? 1920, 1991, 2004 and now 2008. Four attempts to wipe out the Ossetians by Georgia. Will the former finally get their independence or suffer another such attempted genocide?
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
RosaL
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13921
|
posted 14 August 2008 11:00 AM
quote: The entire world, except for Americans, knows that the outbreak of armed conflict between Russian and Georgian forces in South Ossetia was entirely due to the US and its Georgia puppet, Saakashvili. Americans, alone in the world, are unaware that the hostilities were initiated by Saakashvili, because Bush, Cheney and the Israeli-occupied American media have again lied to them.Everyone else in the world knows that the unstable and corrupt Saakashvili, who proclaims democracy and runs a police state, would not have taken on Russia by attacking South Ossetia unless given the go-ahead by Washington. The purpose of the Georgian attack on the Russian population of South Ossetia is twofold: To convince Europeans that their action in delaying Georgia’s NATO membership is the cause of “the Russian aggression” and that to save Georgia from conquest Georgia must be given NATO membership. To ethnically cleanse South Ossetia of its Russian population. Two thousand Russian civilians were targeted and killed by the US-equipped and trained Georgian Army, and tens of thousands fled into Russia. Having achieved this goal, Saakashvili and his puppet-masters in Washington quickly called for a cease fire and a halt to “the Russian invasion.” The hope is that the Russian population will be afraid to return or can be prevented from returning, thus removing the secessionist threat.
Paul Craig Roberts
From: the underclass | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
N.Beltov
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4140
|
posted 14 August 2008 11:13 AM
Well, the seal pup at 24 Sussex is saying what he thinks are the right things. He doesn't want a clubbing from an angry Uncle Sam looking for fresh targets. Liberal and NDP aspirants for the same address take note. Remember what happened right after all those US Marines were killed in Lebanon? They invaded tiny Grenada, killed the President Maurice Bishop, and installed a puppet regime. That puppet regime, later that year, had the dubious distinction of being the only country in the world to vote with the US opposing a resolution on the banning of the militarization of outer space. Who knew a US invasion could bring such a quick development in the Grenada space program? ahahahahahahahahahaha [ 14 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Stockholm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3138
|
posted 14 August 2008 11:26 AM
quote: "I must tell you that I am deeply troubled by a notion I see developing in Russia, and that is a notion that Russia somehow has a say or some control over countries outside of its borders," Harper said at press conference in Cupids, NL.
In this instance i have to agree with Harper. Russia should not have any say or influence on what happens outside of its own borders. I would say the same for the US. two wrongs don't make a right. Just because the US invades Iraq, doesn't suddenly give Russia carte blanche to start wantonly invading other countries either.
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Frustrated Mess
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8312
|
posted 14 August 2008 11:41 AM
quote: So what, exactly, are you advocating happens with regard to what’s going on in Georgia?
I'm not advocating anything. What are you advocating? quote:
If you think Russia is acting in good faith, then why don’t you just say you support what Russia is doing?
You are attempting to put words in my mouth. That is shameful behaviour. What I am saying is that Russia is following international behavior normalized by your country. quote:
If not, why can’t you criticize both Russia and America?
I routinely do. Why can't you? quote: "I must tell you that I am deeply troubled by a notion I see developing in Russia, and that is a notion that Russia somehow has a say or some control over countries outside of its borders," Harper said at press conference in Cupids, NL. In this instance i have to agree with Harper.
Yeah, no kidding. Perhaps Harper's sudden concern for borders and security would mean much more if he maintained that same position with regard to Iraq, Kosovo. Haiti, and Lebanon. As it is, he is just another conservative hypocrite.[ 14 August 2008: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]
From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
writer
editor emeritus
Babbler # 2513
|
posted 14 August 2008 11:47 AM
Um, we have our own military / police meddling in other countries to answer for. Far far away from our own borders.Logs, eyes, and all of that. To truly mangle the teachings I was raised with, I'm seeing lots of delicate glass houses and many sturdy stones being thrown by self-righteous, arrogant, blow-hard men who seem to be astoundingly unaware of the shattered structures behind them, which they feel they are defending - broken and revealed by their own stupid words. Stupid because of the bracing hypocrisy of it all.
From: tentative | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sven
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9972
|
posted 14 August 2008 11:47 AM
quote: Originally posted by remind: Still waiting for Sven to answer answer my question to him regarding how he feels about the USA's cupability in this?
Well, let’s review the questions: At 7:08am (Babble Time), Sven asked remind: quote: Originally posted by the Svenmeister: What do you think about Russia’s actions in Georgia?
Later, after avoiding a direct answer to my question, at 8:18am (Babble Time), remind asked Sven: quote: Originally posted by remind: I got a question for Sven, what do you think about the USA's serious cupability in what is going on?
You get my answer when I get your answer…
From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sven
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9972
|
posted 14 August 2008 11:52 AM
quote: Originally posted by Frustrated Mess: I'm not advocating anything.
And that’s kinda my point. You greet Russia’s actions with... ...silence. (other than criticism of the USA, of course)
From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
RosaL
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13921
|
posted 14 August 2008 11:57 AM
quote: Originally posted by Sven:
And that’s kinda my point. You greet Russia’s actions with... ...silence. (other than criticism of the USA, of course)
I don't like the government of Russia. But in this particular case, I don't see a whole lot to criticize. It seems that Georgia acted first for reasons described earlier and that the presence of Russian troops was welcomed by South Ossetians. I also don't see how Russia can be expected not to try to counter NATO/American "encirclement". What I find interesting in all this is what it seems to show about the decline of the American imperium and the rise of new power configurations. [ 14 August 2008: Message edited by: RosaL ]
From: the underclass | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Frustrated Mess
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8312
|
posted 14 August 2008 12:04 PM
quote: And that’s kinda my point.You greet Russia’s actions with... ...silence.
Actually, it hasn't been your point. Your point has been to try and get babblers wringing their hands over Russia's action in Georgia as though we were all Fox News analysts. Frankly, what is going on in Georgia is still a good natured barn dance compared to Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, and Sudan. Even more than that, it is quite possible that Mikaile took one for the neo-con team because while the whole world has been busy flipping between the Olympics and cable news coverage of Georgia, Pakistan has been descending into hell. And where is Stephen Harper's concern over the possibility of an even wider regional war that could engulf the entire sub-continent? Oh, yeah, he supports the politics behind that murderous plot.
From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
ceti
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7851
|
posted 14 August 2008 12:09 PM
Uh, yeah... The Georgians gave Russia Stalin, so one could argue that the Russians should take Shaakasvili out to prevent a reoccurrence of another Caucasian despot.Seriously though, the Russians are well within their purview to hit back at the repeated provocations and encirclement by the US. The US has broken every agreement since the fall of the Soviet Union (non-expansion of NATO, ABM Treaty, etc.) so why should they care what the US thinks? I'm simply ashamed at all the lackeyism in the West, as if we haven't learned a thing from the inter-imperialist rivalries of the last two centuries. Then again, the colonial mindset is being increasingly shoved down Canadians' throats since Harper came along, so no surprises that even self-proclaimed lefties will side with their overlords.
From: various musings before the revolution | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
A_J
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 15412
|
posted 14 August 2008 12:14 PM
quote: Originally posted by guy cybershy: Wag the dog; faked pictures from the war zone
Faked pictures do happen all of the time now that photoshopping is so easy to do, but this is really lame.Photo 1 - big deal, Reuters got their caption wrong. Are you trying to say that it's no big deal if the subject of the picture is "only" bloodied and injured? Photo 2 - perspective? How do you know it was taken later? Photos 3 and 4 - old people are trying to move their deceased son, and being feable have little luck. I'm shocked. Seriously, if this is the only evidence out there of faked photos, it is staggeringly weak. [ 14 August 2008: Message edited by: A_J ]
From: * | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
N.Beltov
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4140
|
posted 14 August 2008 12:17 PM
quote: Stockholm: two wrongs don't make a right.
Bingo. Gotcha. So the Russians were wrong to defend the Ossetians, wrong to fight back, wrong to drive the Georgians out of the areas where they could continue to do harm. They're wrong to make sure that the Georgians can't do the same again by destroying equipment adjacent to Ossetia. They're wrong to help out the Abkhazians as well, or prevent a slaughter there that already happened in Ossetia. This is the "the Russians and the Ossetians should have laid down and died" school of thought. Thanks for sharing, though I really think that the self-evident monstrosity of such views is apparent even to a child. No wonder you mostly just snipe and whine about the Rooskies. The real meat of your argument turns out to be the worst sort of offal. I'd be hiding it if I were you as well. quote: Stockholm: In this instance i have to agree with Harper.
Now you're being funny. There's no need to type "in this instance".
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
Frustrated Mess
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8312
|
posted 14 August 2008 12:37 PM
quote: Bingo. Gotcha. So the Americans were wrong to defend the Kurds, wrong to fight back, wrong to drive the Ba'athists out of the areas where they could continue to do harm. They're wrong to make sure that the Ba'athists can't do the same again by removing them from power. They're wrong to help out the Shi'ites as well, or prevent a slaughter there that already happened in Iraqi Kurdistan
But this isn't what the Americans did. What they did was kill 1 million Iraqis, half of them children, with illegal sanctions under the pretext of prevening Iraq from re-arming.Despite those sanctions and the degradation of Iraq's military in Desert Storm, they posited the outrageous lie, willing accepted by the corporate media, that Iraq not only managed to rebuild its military, despite sanctions that were literally killing people, but he rebuilt it and expanded it and developed WMDs with sophisticated missiles and launchers capable of reaching Britain and North America. It was all a lie. In the course of an illegal war in the service of that lie, the US killed upwards of a further 1 million Iraq and displaced 4 million more of a country of only 25 million. And, today, they are paying those very same Ba'athists as members of "Awakening Councils" to turn their guns on each other rather than Americans at least until the money runs out.
From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sven
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9972
|
posted 14 August 2008 12:42 PM
quote: Originally posted by Frustrated Mess: Actually, it hasn't been your point. Your point has been to try and get babblers wringing their hands over Russia's action in Georgia as though we were all Fox News analysts.
Please re-read the post I wrote, to which you responded with the above. In that post of mine, I said you have greeted Russia’s actions with silence (except, of course, saying it’s all America’s fault). And you have said you’re not advocating anything. So, you are, in fact, being silent with regard to Russia’s actions (other than, once again, saying it’s all America’s fault).
From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Frustrated Mess
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8312
|
posted 14 August 2008 12:50 PM
quote: In that post of mine, I said you have greeted Russia’s actions with silence (except, of course, saying it’s all America’s fault). And you have said you’re not advocating anything. So, you are, in fact, being silent with regard to Russia’s actions (other than, once again, saying it’s all America’s fault).
Not at all. You have failed to read my posts. I have said, and I will repeat, that nothing I think or anyone else here thinks will have any influence over Russian foreign policy (or American for that matter).What does have influence is international law, the application of international law, international institutions, precedence, and issues of national security. The US has set the precedents and has worked hard to undermine international law, its applications, and the institutions charged with administering it. In essence, the US, under the Bush-Clinton-Bush regimes, have managed to undo decades of progress and revert us, on an international stage, back to the jungle. Congratulations. You must be very proud. ETA: My own current government is equally shameful and hypocritical. [ 14 August 2008: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]
From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Sven
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9972
|
posted 14 August 2008 12:58 PM
quote: Originally posted by Frustrated Mess: In essence, the US, under the Bush-Clinton-Bush regimes, have managed to undo decades of progress and revert us, on an international stage, back to the jungle.
So, to summarize and logically extrapolate: ■ USA conduct has thrown world behavior back to the “rules” of the jungle. ■ The rules of the jungle are bad. ■ Russia is now acting according to the rules of the jungle. ■ Therefore, Russia’s conduct is bad. Do you disagree with any of that?
From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Sven
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9972
|
posted 14 August 2008 01:03 PM
quote: Originally posted by the Svenmeister: Still waiting for remind to answer my question to her regarding whether she approves of Russia’s conduct in Georgia or not.
quote: Originally posted by N.Beltov: What sort of schoolboy question is this?
Well, the same kind of schoolgirl question asked by remind earlier today: quote: Originally posted by remind: Still waiting for Sven to answer answer my question to him regarding how he feels about the USA's cupability in this?
Why do you ask, N.Beltov? [ 14 August 2008: Message edited by: Sven ]
From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594
|
posted 14 August 2008 01:08 PM
quote: Originally posted by Stockholm:
I'd like Russia to be like Sweden only bigger.
So did Gorbachev want Swedish style market socialism. Economic shock specialists like Jeffrey Sachs said they needed to deregulate prices and wages, and privatize everything in sight. Harvard economists said Russian savings represented "pesky overhang" In fact, HIID economists figured that Russian industries needed to be collapsed in order to make Russians entirely dependent on free market forces, totally reliant on their whacky vision for the new Liberal capitalism which still hasn't worked anywhere tried except tolerated in moderate doses in countries where U.S.-backed despots are able to quell protests. Russians were duped. Their economy was deliberately laid waste to after a decade of the most aggressive cold war manouvering by the west and economic warfare with Saudis and oil sheikdoms dumping oil on world markets, vicious trade embargoes and so on. And ironically, Jeffrey Sachs is now an advocate for the Nordic model over flexible labour markets and right-wing privatization mantras. [ 14 August 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
N.Beltov
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4140
|
posted 14 August 2008 01:22 PM
Actually, I'm somewhat invigorated. I've had some good news today. But about the topic. I feel as if I've learned a lot. Someone once told me that political beliefs are only truly strong if they can be defended against anyone, anywhere, anytime. babble can provide a setting for this. You should try it sometime. It will strengthen your own views. Or change them for the better. I'm happy the bear did the right thing. Those who are suspicious of the bear all the time should recognize the same truth and give up their habitual rejection. I think I already remarked that, if it is easier, one can always imagine that the bear was well-behaved by mistake, or by accident. What should the Russians have done differently? And don't just cherry pick. Look at the broad results of their actions so far. It should be easy to outline a different and better course of action for them if their conduct was so egregious.
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
BetterRed
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11865
|
posted 14 August 2008 02:18 PM
quote: Originally posted by Stockholm:
Like when they got sent to the Gulag???
The Gulags were shut down after Stalin's death, before most of the current world leaders (Bush, Putin, Brown, Merkel, Hu) were even born. Let it go, Stock. The GUlags were despicable, but there were no Stalinists running the show since then. - From the Wikipedia article on Gulag: quote: The amnesty in March 1953 was limited to non-political prisoners and for political prisoners sentenced to not more than 5 years, therefore mostly those convicted for common crimes were then freed. The release of political prisoners started in 1954 and became widespread, and also coupled with mass rehabilitations, after Nikita Khrushchev's denunciation of Stalinism in his Secret Speech at the 20th Congress of the CPSU in February 1956.By the end of the 1950s, virtually all "corrective labor camps" were dissolved. Colonies, however, continued to exist. Officially the GULAG was liquidated by the MVD order 20 of January 25, 1960.
From: They change the course of history, everyday ppl like you and me | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
A_J
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 15412
|
posted 14 August 2008 02:20 PM
CBC - Few Signs Russians are pulling out of Georgia quote: . . . Underlining the chaos, [CBC's Alexandra] Szacka and Montreal-based CBC producer Marie-Ève Bédard had their car hijacked as they approached [Gori, still apparently occupied by Russian forces]."There were several Russian tanks waiting for orders to go back and to let us into the city," she said, "and, out of the blue, an armed man, an unidentified man in uniform, started shooting, so it was kind of a panic. "We were several journalists and humanitarian workers waiting there, and he started shooting and everybody started running. He ran right into our driver and then told him, 'Give me the keys! Give me the keys!' and our driver gave him the keys and he stole our car and everything inside and it was gone." The CBC's Mike Hornbrook, stopped behind a Georgian military column on the road to Gori, said the Russians appear to have withdrawn at least partly from the area, creating a power vacuum that had been filled by bandits. Gunmen have been stopping cars and robbing people, sometimes under the noses of Russian troops, he said."The Russians were there; they were sitting on their vehicles and they didn't try to stop them," he said, adding: "I heard one of them quoted as saying, 'We have no orders to do anything about this.'" . . .
quote: Originally posted by N.Beltov: Of course, the occupier of Iraq bears the most responsibility for the fratricidal conflict that goes on under their authority.
From: * | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
N.Beltov
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4140
|
posted 14 August 2008 02:46 PM
Good grief, A_J. Can't you do better than that? The story you quoted has the following sub-heading:"Reports of chaos and banditry between the lines" Besides - aren't you the same babbler who tried to lecture me on the harmfulness of shooting looters? Or was that some other yahoo? Edited to add: at least the Russian media I read (just check out Interfax if you don't believe me) also made reference to Georgian claims before trying to debunk them. That whole CBC "story" passed over in silence the initial Georgian attack. [ 14 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594
|
posted 14 August 2008 03:08 PM
quote: Originally posted by Stockholm:
Like when they got sent to the Gulag???
Soviet education was world renowned. Tuition was free, and somewhere over 20 percent of Russians aged 30 to 59 possess six-year advanced degrees or higher educational attainment today - about twice the percentage as the U.S. And, take a wild guess as to which vicious empire imprisons more of its citizens in public and private gulags than any other country today?
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
BetterRed
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11865
|
posted 14 August 2008 03:14 PM
quote: Originally posted by M. Spector: After eight threads chock full of information you have the nerve to ask this ignorant question?
Surprising density... Y'know, even The Guardian have come around to see US and Georgian culpability in this ridiculous war.
From: They change the course of history, everyday ppl like you and me | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807
|
posted 14 August 2008 03:44 PM
quote: Originally posted by Stockholm:
Like when they got sent to the Gulag???
I don't know, they didn't say anything about a "gulag" to me, unless they think our word for "gulag" is "university."
No wait, they're both PhDs, so they must have meant "university"...
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
A_J
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 15412
|
posted 14 August 2008 04:22 PM
quote: Originally posted by N.Beltov: Sorry, A_J, I'm sure you just want to "be clear" but could you make it "clear" whether you acknowledge the initial slaughter by the Georgians in Ossetia and your moral stand on that. I'm asked a few times and you still haven't made your answer "clear". I'm sure it's just an oversight on your part.
I have, you are just a very selective reader.I have no doubt that a lot of people have been killed in the fighting who need not have been killed, and casualties were likely significant in South Ossetia. I expect and await a full and impartial investigation into the accusations of atrocities. At the moment the claims are simply far too convenient for Russia to unquestioningly accept them in lock-step with the Kremlin, much like all of the talk about Iraq's WMD's, or throwing Kuwaiti babies out of their incubators. Both also used to drum up support for war and both also false. Now that that's cleared away, we should do something about these lies the CBC has been posting. How dare Szacka and Bédard claim that their car was stolen when it most obviously was not? Where do they get off claiming that Russian peacekeepers are, literally, not keeping the peace? I hope there will be a full investigation into this as well now that you've shown it to be all lies and that people have, unequivocally, not been robbed . . .
From: * | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
A_J
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 15412
|
posted 14 August 2008 04:46 PM
quote: Originally posted by N.Beltov: Not so fast. You haven't acknowledged that the casualties were actually Ossetians and Russians. For all I know you're still labouring under the mistaken idea that all the casualties were Georgian, or some other fairy tale.
Well, I can't do much about "what you know", which is a shame. However, people "in South Ossetia" are generally called "South Ossetians", no? Perhaps that will help you a little. I have no idea who makes up the bulk or majority of the unfortunate casualties of this war though, but can assume they come from all sides. I'm still awaiting independent confirmation before jumping to conclusions. Call me old fashioned.But enough about me, I hope you will be making a formal complaint to the CBC however about their employees lying about their car being stolen, and set them straight on the lack of looting or Russian inaction on this (non-existent) looting. It's shameful, really, the lies they'll print even though our own N.Beltov knows what's really happening. You hold the truth and the real facts in your hands N.Beltov - don't let them get away with this! [ 14 August 2008: Message edited by: A_J ]
From: * | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
George Victor
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14683
|
posted 14 August 2008 05:12 PM
May we have "Georgia on my mind" taken "off the ice" now?AT least, that was how one "objector" phrased it. Too messy having two around, or something. It had started out so promisingly, and would have ended with quite a different twist. History was involved, and it would have turned on that history, rather than trying to sort wartime fact from fiction (propaganda).
From: Cambridge, ON | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594
|
posted 14 August 2008 07:13 PM
quote: Originally posted by N.Beltov:
Not so fast. You haven't acknowledged that the casualties were actually Ossetians and Russians. For all I know you're still labouring under the mistaken idea that all the casualties were Georgian, or some other fairy tale.
I think what matters to Warshington and colder war news media-propagandists is that most Americans believe that Russia initiated the aggression. Right now Americans believe Russia attacked Georgia, not that Georgia launched a terrible rocket assault and murdered hundreds of Ossetes without provocation. Joe Goebbels isn't dead.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Frustrated Mess
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8312
|
posted 14 August 2008 07:29 PM
quote: So, to summarize and logically extrapolate:■ USA conduct has thrown world behavior back to the “rules” of the jungle. ■ The rules of the jungle are bad. ■ Russia is now acting according to the rules of the jungle. ■ Therefore, Russia’s conduct is bad. Do you disagree with any of that?
I agree with the concept of law, international law, and strong international institutions to implement and enforce that law.However, a law that some obey and others ignore without consequences is no law at all. That is a sucker's game. Your nation rendered international law, as pointed out, an international joke. For Russia to abide by international rules of conduct, while your country surrounds them with arms aall the while thumbing its nose at protocols (did you forget your country promised Russia it would not do exactly what it was doing? You country also promised native Americans not to enter their territory in North Dakota and we know what happened, don't we? Maybe the Russians have learned the value of the American word and signature), treaties, and laws, would be foolish in the extreme. You wouldn't be so stupid as to accept such a situation in real life, Sven and, clearly, neither is Russia stupid enough to accept it in the world criminal oligarchs we call international politics. Why don't you direct your anger where it matters: at your own nation which has created the global environment of lawlessness in which we now find ourselves? On a side note, the worm may be turning just a little bit further: quote: The meeting with Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Turkey’s prime minister, marks Mr Ahmadi-Nejad’s first bilateral visit to a Nato member. Mr Erdogan is seeking to strengthen energy ties with Tehran, step up co-operation against Kurdish separatists and intensify Turkey’s efforts to defuse the dispute over Iran’s nuclear programme.The centrepiece of the visit is likely to be progress on an energy initiative that Ankara and Tehran launched last year. That could see a deal signed to increase Iranian natural gas supply and set rates for the transportation of Turkmen gas across Iran. The US state department said Washington was opposed to any country deepening economic ties with Tehran. “This is not the time to do business with Iran,” it said. “It is time for the international community, including our ally Turkey, to begin considering additional measures to pressure Iran.”
Have the puppets begun to pull back on thier strings?[ 14 August 2008: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]
From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
N.Beltov
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4140
|
posted 14 August 2008 08:05 PM
That was excellent and calm analysis from Gwynne Dyer. Where is he politically? A small "L" liberal?Dyer's piece just goes to show what ridiculous cranks and/or mischievous xenophobes babble attracts. And what a waste of time they are. Gah. Edited to add: here's an interesting admission from US sources. Here is the link. quote: Robert Hunter, former ambassador to NATO under President Clinton and senior adviser for RAND Corporation, said Wednesday's proposal does not spell out a timetable and that Russian interpretation that peacekeeping forces can enter Georgia to respond to provocations also poses problems.
Fair enough. But now for the interesting bit: quote: Hunter said the U.S. also needs to monitor Saakashvili."Georgians do have an interest in provocation and need to be kept under control," he said. "Because the incentive for the Georgians is to have the Russians do nasty things which will then help their bargaining with the outside world."
And that from a US source. A week has passed and people whom we would expect to be highly sympathetic towards Saakashvili are already adopting a cautious attitude towards his regime. He's toast, pure and simple. [ 14 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
|
NorthReport
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 15337
|
posted 14 August 2008 09:02 PM
What an absolutely pathetic and useless post. If you haven't anything to say why bother posting at all. Here is a little substance from Dyer for you to whet your teeth on. This isn't rocket science. quote: The three-day war in South Ossetia is settled, and the Georgians have lost. There may be some more shooting yet, but it is now clear that Georgia will never regain control of the rebel territories of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.Also that President Mikhail Saakashvili has handed Russia a major victory, and that Georgia's hopes of joining NATO are gone. Pretty impressive work for one long weekend. Now Saakashvili is playing on old Cold War stereotypes of the Russian threat in a desperate bid for Western backing: "What Russia is doing in Georgia is open, unhidden aggression and a challenge to the whole world. If the whole world does not stop Russia today, then Russian tanks will be able to reach any other European capital." Nonsense. It was Georgia that started this war.
quote: Originally posted by A_J:
Well, I can't do much about "what you know", which is a shame. However, people "in South Ossetia" are generally called "South Ossetians", no? Perhaps that will help you a little. I have no idea who makes up the bulk or majority of the unfortunate casualties of this war though, but can assume they come from all sides. I'm still awaiting independent confirmation before jumping to conclusions. Call me old fashioned.But enough about me, I hope you will be making a formal complaint to the CBC however about their employees lying about their car being stolen, and set them straight on the lack of looting or Russian inaction on this (non-existent) looting. It's shameful, really, the lies they'll print even though our own N.Beltov knows what's really happening. You hold the truth and the real facts in your hands N.Beltov - don't let them get away with this!
[ 14 August 2008: Message edited by: NorthReport ]
From: From sea to sea to sea | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
|