quote:

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posted 30 October 2008 07:34 AM
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Closing for length.
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From: It's difficult to work in a group when you're omnipotent - Q | Registered: Apr 2005 | IP: Logged

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At 99 posts?

quote:

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originally posted by Stargazer:
What, exactly, do you know about "thinking people in the aboriginal community?".

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One would think some references regarding what "thinking" people in the aboriginal community "think" would be apropos.

Have any references to them?

[ 30 October 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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Originally posted by George Victor:
At 99 posts?

Omnipotence does have its advantages, for sure.

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That's why they call me "The Closer".

A systemic problem with the Globe and Mail is the fact that it is still very much of a print-news institution -- even the online edition has a dreadfully inadequate letters-to-the-editor comments interface. You type your comments, they disappear. It's such a dictatorial medium that it even has to disappear its political opponents like some kind of Pinochet -- even when these "dangerous adversaries" are just text you don't agree with entirely.

And that's probably "the problem" here. Margaret Wente's offensive column is a fine discussion-starter. It's just that the Globe is still living in the Grand Age of the Authoritarian Newspaper Industry. And that type of robber-baron venue really can't afford this kind of transparent racism in its texts, because the tyrannical media of that era - like its other tyrants - always has to put on an air of politically-correct respectability in order to be respected as THE LAW in the society it tries to control.

With democratic news media, a more egalitarian interface allows for on ongoing conversation between reader and article-posters, sender and receiver. In this kind of environment, half-baked and reactionary political jabs like Wente's are excellent for provoking the best and most sincere form of political expression -- conversations about stuff between people.

I'm not suggesting that she be demoted to "globe_online discussion moderator." I'm suggesting that the Globe needs to alter its online interface if it wants to be considered, rather than obeyed.

As it is now, the writers are forced to mask the subtle but politely ethnocentric and classist worldview of many of the privileged owners and editors. This leads to a kind of mental paralysis that limits the range of discussions that are possible. And limiting the discussion does much more harm to public knowledge than a few offensive caricatures in a Wente article.

With more democratic media interfaces, prejudices and parochialism can finally be laid out bare in the open arena for all to deconstruct, as it has been online. And what better place to do this than in public news sites.

Don't blame Margaret Wente for any bad feelings. Blame dictatorial media institutions like Globefront.

[ 30 October 2008: Message edited by: QatzelOk ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Sharon:
Margaret Wente, I've just heard, is in Halifax and will speak later today on "Freedom of speech -- the right to offend." She's going to be interviewed on the radio.

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Yes, I'm sure she'll be dining out on this for a good long time. She's also got a Facebook support group, started by the National Post's Jonathan Kay.

[ 30 October 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]

quote:

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And that's probably "the problem" here. Margaret Wente's offensive column is a fine discussion-starter. It's just that the Globe is still living in the Grand Age of the Authoritarian Newspaper Industry. And that type of robber-baron venue really can't afford this kind of transparent racism in its texts, because the tyrannical media of that era - like its other tyrants - always has to put on an air of politically-correct respectability in order to be respected as THE LAW in the society it tries to control.

With democratic news media, a more egalitarian interface allows for on ongoing conversation between reader and article-posters, sender and receiver. In this kind of environment, half-baked and reactionary political jabs like Wente's are excellent for provoking the best and most sincere form of political expression -- conversations about stuff between people.

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A little history for the helluvit.

Ken Thomson took on M'lord of the Pen's attempt to dominate national news with his National Post.

The Globe and Mail won the battle with Ken's money, bringing aboard Margaret and Christie et al to make sure the conservative reader who still believed that editorializing should not creep into news copy, would not decamp to the Post.

Very gutsy, chippy, subjective stuff from those gals, and they take a position that not all will find palatable, for good reason. Don't read Blatchford, m'self. Read some Wente, depending on the topic, and got a letter printed a couple of years back comparing her snottiness to Marie Antoinette for her explanation of why she wasn't up to "armpit to armpit" contact with public transport riders.

She is vulnerable in her ignorance of life outside her own pricey milieux, and the comparison should be made.

The recent Lord Black of Crossharbour, an authority on Franklin Delano Roosevelt after writing a - rather good - biography on him, actually appeared on the Globe's op ed the other day with a piece lamenting the absence of an FDR today.

Of course, originally Black praised FDR for saving us all from communism.

The piece on the op-ed page of his old business enemy the other day only praised FDR for being superior to anything down that way since.

And the Globe will soon have buried the Post which, losing millions, will disappear as an organ of the Canadian neo-con.

I think Wente’s op-ed piece is based on a categorical error; she should have been talking about society rather than culture. Jared Diamond doesn’t talk about cultures, for instance, he talks about societies. When I think of culture, I think of religion/spirituality, language, idiosyncrasies like the Cree (or Aboriginal) tendency to use humour to relate stories, moral lessons, etc, or what kind of foods we traditionally ate & music & dance, etc. That my European ancestors used firearms a number of centuries before my Cree ones did, had nothing to do with culture, it’s a matter of scientific advancement. The fact that my Cree ancestors didn’t construct pyramids or castles & fortresses like the Inca, Aztecs or the Europeans was a matter of resource endowment & lack of agricultural staples– it had nothing to do with culture. Had my Cree ancestors found a plant that could be easily cultivated & provide an adequate number of calories given the amount of work needed to cultivate the plant then they would have had the time to spend developing other skills like figuring out how to move sufficiently large quantities of rocks over great distances to construct pyramids or castles or holiday retreats with casinos for wealthy Blackfoot aristocrats. The lack of that plant had nothing to do with culture; anthropologists, historians, scientists, sociologists, etc have clearly demonstrated time & again that any culture will develop certain skills & make certain scientific advancements given the right endowment of resources, geography, amount of daylight, growing season, etc. None of that has anything to do with culture. I’m pretty sure she wasn’t making that point though.

If I want to give Wente the benefit of the doubt, I would say that she’s using controversy to try & point out that there needs to be discussion on certain things. And I think she’s failing in that because most people who read that op-ed piece will either be mad & offended or agree & figure “Yeah she’s right, those damn Indians aren’t anything special with their backwards ways – now I gotta go to church.” I see from the posts on the G & M that there is basically a lot of that although not quite so back-woodsy.

I don’t think the piece has done much to encourage discussion about the issue she was probably trying to get at; that there’s probably too much time spent discussing our FN cultures & not enough time trying to figure out how we’re going to get out of the mess we’re currently in. It’s largely considered heinous & hateful to suggest that we allocate resources to teach science, math & grammar in our FN communities than we do to teach Cree, or about Sweat Lodges & religious practices & traditional medicinal treatments. I never learned a single kilobyte of information about Cree culture in 12 years of school, but learned plenty from my mother, grandparents, aunts & uncles, Elders – all in an informal setting. But now there’s a large cultural industry developing & a significant number of FN people (at least in my part of the country) believe without question that the solution to our problems is to force every FN kid to learn an FN language & culture in school. It’s basically not even open to debate. In my view, there is a significant “drift” towards the establishment of theocracies in several FN communities; at least 75% of the meetings I go to in FN communities start off with a prayer I take offense to this type of practice because I like to decide when & how I pray; with a braid of Sweetgrass in the privacy of my home – but sometimes I’m forced to hear a prayer to Jesus (from a FN person), other times a prayer to the Creator, the point is I’m basically forced. But is this open to discussion? No. And to suggest any other practice often results in being labelled with some pejorative term. There isn’t enough debate in our communities by & large; there isn’t enough discussion on how we’re going to allocate limited resources in an effort to ensure that youth have a chance at succeeding in this rapidly changing world, for instance. There’s a significant tendency for groupthink, and disagreements are largely solved by way of finger-pointing & allegations- at least in my experience as a 32 year old FN person with 14 years working in FN communities & organizations.

Sure hope, also, that you can come on board more often. I'd really like to hear more about the different perspectives for change - for the future of the children and the role of education.

We really need to know what the options are, out there, if the community outside the FN is to be able to do more than applaud efforts underway to get a hearing and action on land claims, etc. What is the final objective in land-claim action? Land for what?

And how do FN people express their concern for the building environmental crisis? We know what is happening to the health of Athabaska people, etc., but how to other people in other places view what is happening, and what solutions are proposed?

quote:

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The Globe and Mail won the battle with Ken's money, bringing aboard Margaret and Christie et al to make sure the conservative reader who still believed that editorializing should not creep into news copy, would not decamp to the Post.

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Question: How can a newspaper be completely free of editorial bias if its owner has political convictions? I mean, just the choice of staff and articles allows the owner/editor to intervene in their own self-interest.

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Originally posted by QatzelOk:
Question: How can a newspaper be completely free of editorial bias

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It won't be and the bias in the different media outlets doesn't necessarily break along party lines. Sometimes it's a matter of looking at the particular group of consumers that a newspaper (or broadcast outlet) has decided to try and deliver to advertisers. For example I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that the Globe will one day endorse the Liberal party again since the Liberals have historically been friendly towards corporate Canada which is the Globe's constituency.

quote:

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Originally posted by 2 ponies:
I read the column, which I honestly hadn’t heard of until today despite being a fairly regular skimmer of the G & M. Now, I think Wente’s op-ed piece was a little offensive, but not that much. I’m a First Nations person and I don’t find it that offensive. It didn’t make my heart race, or get my face all flushed or give me a reason to have a cigarette or even chuckle and shake my head in disbelief. I’ve experienced more hateful, belligerent attacks from my own father for crying out loud! I think this sort of op-ed piece is important for a democracy. I think it’s sad that Wente managed to generalize all Aboriginal cultures in 1600 as the same. And it is pretty ridiculous that Dick Pound referred to my ancestors as savages; I’m pretty sure I have about a dozen relatives alive & well today who are at least 10 times more savage than my forefathers who signed treaty 6 in the late 1800’s – but that’s not culture, it’s lack of good parenting.

I think Wente’s op-ed piece is based on a categorical error; she should have been talking about society rather than culture. Jared Diamond doesn’t talk about cultures, for instance, he talks about societies. When I think of culture, I think of religion/spirituality, language, idiosyncrasies like the Cree (or Aboriginal) tendency to use humour to relate stories, moral lessons, etc, or what kind of foods we traditionally ate & music & dance, etc. That my European ancestors used firearms a number of centuries before my Cree ones did, had nothing to do with culture, it’s a matter of scientific advancement. The fact that my Cree ancestors didn’t construct pyramids or castles & fortresses like the Inca, Aztecs or the Europeans was a matter of resource endowment & lack of agricultural staples– it had nothing to do with culture. Had my Cree ancestors found a plant that could be easily cultivated & provide an adequate number of calories given the amount of work needed to cultivate the plant then they would have had the time to spend developing other skills like figuring out how to move sufficiently large quantities of rocks over great distances to construct pyramids or castles or holiday retreats with casinos for wealthy Blackfoot aristocrats. The lack of that plant had nothing to do with culture; anthropologists, historians, scientists, sociologists, etc have clearly demonstrated time & again that any culture will develop certain skills & make certain scientific advancements given the right endowment of resources, geography, amount of daylight, growing season, etc. None of that has anything to do with culture. I’m pretty sure she wasn’t making that point though.

If I want to give Wente the benefit of the doubt, I would say that she’s using controversy to try & point out that there needs to be discussion on certain things. And I think she’s failing in that because most people who read that op-ed piece will either be mad & offended or agree & figure “Yeah she’s right, those damn Indians aren’t anything special with their backwards ways – now I gotta go to church.” I see from the posts on the G & M that there is basically a lot of that although not quite so back-woodsy.

I don’t think the piece has done much to encourage discussion about the issue she was probably trying to get at; that there’s probably too much time spent discussing our FN cultures & not enough time trying to figure out how we’re going to get out of the mess we’re currently in. It’s largely considered heinous & hateful to suggest that we allocate resources to teach science, math & grammar in our FN communities than we do to teach Cree, or about Sweat Lodges & religious practices & traditional medicinal treatments. I never learned a single kilobyte of information about Cree culture in 12 years of school, but learned plenty from my mother, grandparents, aunts & uncles, Elders – all in an informal setting. But now there’s a large cultural industry developing & a significant number of FN people (at least in my part of the country) believe without question that the solution to our problems is to force every FN kid to learn an FN language & culture in school. It’s basically not even open to debate. In my view, there is a significant “drift” towards the establishment of theocracies in several FN communities; at least 75% of the meetings I go to in FN communities start off with a prayer I take offense to this type of practice because I like to decide when & how I pray; with a braid of Sweetgrass in the privacy of my home – but sometimes I’m forced to hear a prayer to Jesus (from a FN person), other times a prayer to the Creator, the point is I’m basically forced. But is this open to discussion? No. And to suggest any other practice often results in being labelled with some pejorative term. There isn’t enough debate in our communities by & large; there isn’t enough discussion on how we’re going to allocate limited resources in an effort to ensure that youth have a chance at succeeding in this rapidly changing world, for instance. There’s a significant tendency for groupthink, and disagreements are largely solved by way of finger-pointing & allegations- at least in my experience as a 32 year old FN person with 14 years working in FN communities & organizations.

I think people are over-reacting to Margeret Wente’s article. I agree that Dick Pound crossed the line. To refer to us as savages – ouch, and I don’t think his comment was very well thought out to say the least. Yes, China is an old civilization, does that excuse the Communist regime’s tendency to punish political activists or to sensor religion? Of course it doesn’t. But Margeret Wente’s characterization of Aboriginal people and our political practices as culture (an inferior one) is something that needs to be discussed. I said it before – if Wente should be fired it should be for spewing fallacies on a regular basis, not for being controversial or offending someone.

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quote:

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Originally posted by pogge:

It won't be and the bias in the different media outlets doesn't necessarily break along party lines. Sometimes it's a matter of looking at the particular group of consumers that a newspaper (or broadcast outlet) has decided to try and deliver to advertisers. For example I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that the Globe will one day endorse the Liberal party again since the Liberals have historically been friendly towards corporate Canada which is the Globe's constituency.

The real solution is to try and have diversification in the media which both allows for differing viewpoints and allows consumers to more easily vote with their wallets if one source of news and opinion is doing a poor job. We've been going in the opposite direction.

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quote:

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Originally posted by bigcitygal:

That's why they call me "The Closer".

Actually, they don't call me that, but I just wanted to say it.

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Yeah, well, George, at least you weren't caught in the closure while posting.

(squints ala Clint Eastwood at Bigcitygal-- it's a helluva thing, closing a thread. You take away everything it's got, and everything it's gonna have. -- Spits tobacco juice on the ground) Can we have an emoticon to express that?

Anyway, since this has continued I will go back to say what I was responding to you about yesterday George, in that what newspapers are, and what I might like them to be are two different things.

And newspapers are a business, and copy is what fills the space between the advertising.

It's a somewhat free country, and I support Wente's right to blather what she wants, and the Globe's right to print it. Knock themselves out, doing it for all I care.

But, as long as it's still a free country, I am free to spend-- or not spend-- my money where ever my whims so take me, and free to encourage like minded people to be so whimsical, and to inform whatever business I like about my whimsys.

Do not suggest that newspapers are not already so influenced.

"Dunno" is bad.

quote:

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Regarding the other issues I raised, that a couple of posters indicated they were glad to read for getting a different point of view; start another thread & I’ll gladly get into a discussion with whoever is interested. I know there are other Aboriginal people on babble, some of whom I’m sure will have different thoughts than myself.

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Yes, let's stop verbally thumping poor old Margaret and move on from her ignorant take on aboriginal cultural history.

Would you like to discuss the issues facing FN people where it comes to education for their children. Both janfromthebruce and I have expressed interest in hearing more about this.

Personally, I would like to hear what objectives FN people have set, for elementary, secondary and post- secondary down the road...and of course the barriers to all of them.

I have teacher training and experience and jan is a school trustee, so a range of interest and knowledge might be brought to bear. One of the works that turned me on in undergraduate years was Robert S.Lynd's "Knowledge for What? The place of social science in American culture" , published in 1939 and looking for radical answers to that question at the end of the depression and on the cusp of war. I think the questions can be turned to "the place of FN culture in 21st Century North America.

Anyway, that's just a thought for starters if you're okay on it. We'll keep it basic, straight out of experience - no references unless you wish - and see where it takes us? And I warn you, it'll be questions on my part to you for the most part. I'm going to be pushing a book I'm reading now.

And would you please give the thread a title and begin it yourself - whatever's comfortable for a title.

Where? Aboriginal Issues and Culture or Activism? Whatever you think. Lead on please.

[ 31 October 2008: Message edited by: George Victor ]

quote:

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newspapers are a business

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But since the truth isn't really a business (unless you're arguing that it is), then newspapers aren't really the place to find that, are they.

In order to have a news medium that isn't a biased mouthpiece of one particular mafia (like big business, or a particular party), you need to have a wide variety of contributors for whom the ONLY criteria for publishing is the quality of their text and their argument.

quote:

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By rewarding Wente's erroneous and hurtfull ramblings in a national newspaper by extending the infamy she revels and profits from, we are serving a higher truth.

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[ 31 October 2008: Message edited by: QatzelOk ]

quote:

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Wente and the Globe threw a bean ball at the aboriginal community. I merely suggest that instead of running home to mamma, we should be throwing one high and inside ourselves.

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Not sure we're running for home on this one. Some folk may be able to challenge Wente's knowledge on this one - but only in a limited way.

I think what some are into right now is an attempt to build a knowledge base that will knock her socks off next time she tries anything like it. In fact, while Wente would not retreat openly on this one, she'll lie mighty low (and might even read up on where she went wrong).

We are making some progress on this one and have to go further, all together. Not a few FN people as activists alone. Oh, I know, some out there see this as interference. I don't think that makes sense, looking back. Like, many of us have gone to bat for other cultures a beliefs before - and wound up on the winning side. And I like winning. But I am open to differing opinion.

quote:

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I think what some are into right now is an attempt to build a knowledge base that will knock her socks off next time she tries anything like it. In fact, while Wente would not retreat openly on this one, she'll lie mighty low (and might even read up on where she went wrong).

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I think Wente and I have at least one thing in common. I do not think she is interested one iota in edifying herself, and I wouldn't waste my time, or have anyone here waste there time attempting.

I'm not even sure many columnists even believe what they write. Just stir the pot, keep people reading, keep the pay cheque comming-- facts and human collateral damage be damned.

And, call me "Dr. Stangelove" as some here have in the past, but the game of using advertising to adjust the views of columnists and editors is just the way it is.

Try selling a pro Palestinian column for "NOW" magazine, if you like collecting reject letters.

It's just the way the game is played.

quote:

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I'm not even sure many columnists even believe what they write. Just stir the pot, keep people reading, keep the pay cheque comming-- facts and human collateral damage be damned.

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Know any columnists of any substance? Ever correspond with them, get to know them a bit? Who?

Try it, friend. Try to find them wrong in their reporting (and analysis). Give it a real shot, and let me know what you find. Okay?

quote:

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Been there, done that. I have more entertaining ways to waste my time.

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quote:

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Edward Said was a columnist of subtance. Unfortunately, his articles appeared in Al-Arham, not the Globe and Mail.

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Let's just say, I'll believe you where thousands wouldn't.

Sorry, but this thread was meant to lead to some honest to god knowledge about a people whom I know too little. But there is apparently no hope of that around here.

C'est la vie er somethin'.

[ 02 November 2008: Message edited by: George Victor ]

quote:

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Edward Said was a columnist of subtance. Unfortunately, his articles appeared in Al-Arham, not the Globe and Mail.

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But to interest groups who profit from lies - many of whom are actively involved in fabricating fairly insight-free media - his lack of a popular platform was really fortunate.

Whose fortune does your media work to increase?

[ 01 November 2008: Message edited by: QatzelOk ]

quote:

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Yes, let's stop verbally thumping poor old Margaret and move on from her ignorant take on aboriginal cultural history.

Would you like to discuss the issues facing FN people where it comes to education for their children. Both janfromthebruce and I have expressed interest in hearing more about this.

Personally, I would like to hear what objectives FN people have set, for elementary, secondary and post- secondary down the road...and of course the barriers to all of them.

I have teacher training and experience and jan is a school trustee, so a range of interest and knowledge might be brought to bear. One of the works that turned me on in undergraduate years was Robert S.Lynd's "Knowledge for What? The place of social science in American culture" , published in 1939 and looking for radical answers to that question at the end of the depression and on the cusp of war. I think the questions can be turned to "the place of FN culture in 21st Century North America.

Anyway, that's just a thought for starters if you're okay on it. We'll keep it basic, straight out of experience - no references unless you wish - and see where it takes us? And I warn you, it'll be questions on my part to you for the most part. I'm going to be pushing a book I'm reading now.

And would you please give the thread a title and begin it yourself - whatever's comfortable for a title.
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Where? Aboriginal Issues and Culture or Activism? Whatever you think. Lead on please.

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[ 31 October 2008: Message edited by: George Victor ]

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quote:

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I started writing another long post, but all it basically said was the Wente is “entitled” to say ignorant things & spread fallacies

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Commercial media is very tribe-o-centric. It's all about scratching the backs of the richest tribal leaders. And those rich tribal leaders - even the so-called progressive ones - are often the most ideological members of society. They are SURE they know what "progress" means, and all their personal wealth seems to whisper to them that they are in a position to "know" that.

"This is backwards, and this is progress." The Dick Pound meme and Wente reinforcement just underscore that our elites - both financial and cultural - are often still pulling the cart of liberal democracy - where money is the only currency.

When money is the only measure of worth, then progress is defined by how much stuff you have, and how many batteries you go through.

[ 01 November 2008: Message edited by: QatzelOk ]

posted 01 November 2008 07:25 AM
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A repeat of the invitation to 2 ponies from yesterday - just in case it got lost in the ongoing discussion about Wente, journalists, and the world.

quote:
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Yes, let's stop verbally thumping poor old Margaret and move on from her ignorant take on aboriginal cultural history.

Would you like to discuss the issues facing FN people where it comes to education for their children. Both janfromthebruce and I have expressed interest in hearing more about this.

Personally, I would like to hear what objectives FN people have set, for elementary, secondary and post- secondary down the road...and of course the barriers to all of them.

I have teacher training and experience and jan is a school trustee, so a range of interest and knowledge might be brought to bear. One of the works that turned me on in undergraduate years was Robert S.Lynd's "Knowledge for What? The place of social science in American culture" , published in 1939 and looking for radical answers to that question at the end of the depression and on the cusp of war. I think the questions can be turned to "the place of FN culture in 21st Century North America.

Anyway, that's just a thought for starters if you're okay on it. We'll keep it basic, straight out of experience - no references unless you wish - and see where it takes us? And I warn you, it'll be questions on my part to you for the most part. I'm going to be pushing a book I'm reading now.

And would you please give the thread a title and begin it yourself - whatever's comfortable for a title.
----------------------------------------------

[ 02 November 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]